Tight Ends
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mikeyP72 said:
Lol at Heath Millers amazing receiving stats.Who ever said anything about "amazing receiving stats" Heath Miller does it all and in NFL circles is regarded as one of the better te's. He's not a fantasy football powerhouse so he flies under the radar. It's not much different with Big Ben seeing as a lot of sources put him on the fringe but if you ask the football insiders he's always in the top 5. Ask Bill Polian of the Colts. He recently went on the record and said the same. Find a TE in the NFL that does absolutely everything and is a leader in the locker room. He put up the numbers in 09 because he was used more in the passing game. Fact of the matter is the Steelers have never used the TE as a primary target in the offense. It's the system not Heath Miller because Heath Miller is a beast. Ben xxxxing Watson lmao.
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You do realize that Watson is in fact known for his drops in NE, don't you?
Wow because he didn't really drop that many with us this year did he. I just don't understand how he can be one of the best run blockers as a TE in the league and have the production that he had this season and only be considered average. I would defiantly take him over Heap or Miller and I think at worst he is just as good as those two.
Hillis-iz-Boss said:
Wow because he didn't really drop that many with us this year did he. I just don't understand how he can be one of the best run blockers as a TE in the league and have the production that he had this season and only be considered average. I would defiantly take him over Heap or Miller and I think at worst he is just as good as those two.You would be downgrading. This is the guy's first above average year in six and it is due to Cleveland's lack of targets. He did look decent compared our other receiving options though. I just think that you guys are severely overrating the guy. Look at the two rookie TEs that came to NE this year, they BOTH equaled or bettered any year that Watson had in NE. That really should shine a light on things.
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mikeyP72 said:
Lol at Heath Millers amazing receiving stats.Who ever said anything about "amazing receiving stats" Heath Miller does it all and in NFL circles is regarded as one of the better te's. He's not a fantasy football powerhouse so he flies under the radar. It's not much different with Big Ben seeing as a lot of sources put him on the fringe but if you ask the football insiders he's always in the top 5. Ask Bill Polian of the Colts. He recently went on the record and said the same. Find a TE in the NFL that does absolutely everything and is a leader in the locker room. He put up the numbers in 09 because he was used more in the passing game. Fact of the matter is the Steelers have never used the TE as a primary target in the offense. It's the system not Heath Miller because Heath Miller is a beast. Ben xxxxing Watson lmao.
Homotron said:
Who ever said anything about "amazing receiving stats" Heath Miller does it all and in NFL circles is regarded as one of the better te's. He's not a fantasy football powerhouse so he flies under the radar. It's not much different with Big Ben seeing as a lot of sources put him on the fringe but if you ask the football insiders he's always in the top 5. Ask Bill Polian of the Colts. He recently went on the record and said the same. Find a TE in the NFL that does absolutely everything and is a leader in the locker room. He put up the numbers in 09 because he was used more in the passing game. Fact of the matter is the Steelers have never used the TE as a primary target in the offense. It's the system not Heath Miller because Heath Miller is a beast. Ben xxxxing Watson lmao.Miller is solid but you really need to pump the brakes on your manlove for him.
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That does look like a Fantasy ranking list. The league I play in doesn't make you have a TE so they are lunmped into the reciever catagory so usually there is only 5-6 TE picked at all.
As for the AFCN TE position.2 are decent-good and the other 2 are bad-old. Heath Miller can't stay on the field beacuse of injury.Todd Heap is washed up and might want to consider retirement. Ben Watson just had his career year, he's probably the best right now but Gresham is the youngest, and is pretty good but he plays in Cincy. Who knows who will be throwing him the ball?
I'm a Steeler homer but where the hell do you get this sh.it? Heath Miller can't stay on the field because of injury? and Todd Heap is washed up? Todd Heap is the one with the injury problems and he's far from washed up. Ben Watson isn't anywhere close to the best in the AFC North. As far as Heath Miller is concerned he's not used in the same passing capacity as most of the tight ends in the league. He had a big year the season before this past season but he's not seeing all the passing love like he did the year before because of the emergence of Sanders and Brown. The ranking is also definitely fantasy football so that's all about big numbers. I mean if we're going to look at this objectively Ben Watson was one of the few options in the Browns passing game. However above all else Colt McCoy is a rookie so the TE is the safety valve and Watson's number show that pretty clearly. If Watson were at the top of his game Capt. Hoodie wouldn't have let him walk and turn around and draft two TE's.
Now as far as Gate's is concerned he's a great, great TE but he's also injury prone and Pizza for you to say by a "wide, wide margin" is insane. It's not a wide, wide margin if we're talking pure pass catching te's. However outside of Vincent Jackson who is always in some sort of turmoil Gates is also the only sure thing in that attack as well. Malcom Floyd came on as did Legadu but he gets the looks because it's basically Jackson and Gates. If you're talking tangible football rankings Fantasy football has to be one of the worst ways to measure. It's all about the gawdy numbers and nothing more.
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone is labeling Watson as anything special. Seriously.
Homotron said:
Now as far as Gate's is concerned he's a great, great TE but he's also injury prone and Pizza for you to say by a "wide, wide margin" is insane. It's not a wide, wide margin if we're talking pure pass catching te's.Before this year he had played every game in the previous 4 years. Before that he missed 3 games in three years.
Look at what the man has done. He played six less games than other TEs this year and finished 4th in yards and 1st in TDs
Again, it is Gates>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everyone else.
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Hillis-iz-Boss said:
Wow because he didn't really drop that many with us this year did he. I just don't understand how he can be one of the best run blockers as a TE in the league and have the production that he had this season and only be considered average. I would defiantly take him over Heap or Miller and I think at worst he is just as good as those two.You would be downgrading. This is the guy's first above average year in six and it is due to Cleveland's lack of targets. He did look decent compared our other receiving options though. I just think that you guys are severely overrating the guy. Look at the two rookie TEs that came to NE this year, they BOTH equaled or bettered any year that Watson had in NE. That really should shine a light on things.
You would be downgrading. This is the guy's first above average year in six and it is due to Cleveland's lack of targets. He did look decent compared our other receiving options though. I just think that you guys are severely overrating the guy. Look at the two rookie TEs that came to NE this year, they BOTH equaled or bettered any year that Watson had in NE. That really should shine a light on things.
Something that is bound to happen when you draft two recieving tight ends on a team that has Tom Brady as a QB and lost their #1 receiver (Moss due to age/stupidness) and were never able to replace him (Branch isn't the answer). If you put Watson on that team and make him a legit starting TE that doesn't line up in the slot he does as good if not better.
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Homotard is still trying to justify his man-love for Miller...incredible...Id take BW over him anyday of the year...
Homotard is still trying to justify his man-love for Miller...incredible...Id take BW over him anyday of the year...
lol and you'd be a moron. Watson is a Brown for a reason. He couldn't sign a contract anywhere else and had to know he'd be a primary option in easily one of the weakest receiving cores in the league. If we really wanna go there and with the "homo-tard" stuff does that mean I can start using "Retard" again? Because believe it or not I purposely stop my self from using it out of respect for whomever took issue with it previously. My posts would be just "a tick" faster if I could start throwing it around again.
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Homo... you realize that "tight end" is just the name of his position, don't you? I know how you Squeeler fags love your "tight ends."
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You would be downgrading. This is the guy's first above average year in six and it is due to Cleveland's lack of targets. He did look decent compared our other receiving options though. I just think that you guys are severely overrating the guy. Look at the two rookie TEs that came to NE this year, they BOTH equaled or bettered any year that Watson had in NE. That really should shine a light on things.
Something that is bound to happen when you draft two recieving tight ends on a team that has Tom Brady as a QB and lost their #1 receiver (Moss due to age/stupidness) and were never able to replace him (Branch isn't the answer). If you put Watson on that team and make him a legit starting TE that doesn't line up in the slot he does as good if not better.
Hillis-iz-Boss said:
Something that is bound to happen when you draft two recieving tight ends on a team that has Tom Brady as a QB and lost their #1 receiver (Moss due to age/stupidness) and were never able to replace him (Branch isn't the answer). If you put Watson on that team and make him a legit starting TE that doesn't line up in the slot he does as good if not better.Wow. Just wow.
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I'm still trying to figure out why anyone is labeling Watson as anything special. Seriously.
I don't know about "special", but what he was was the most productive TE in the division. You denigrate this by saying that he was a rookie QBs best option. So what? Maybe he was the best option because he was the best at what he does.
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The question came up as to why Watson was not still with the Patriots. I think the reason may be in these stats:
2005 25 NWE TE 15 9 29 441 15.2 4 35 1.9 29.4
2006 26 NWE TE 13 13 49 643 13.1 3 40 3.8 49.5
2007 27 NWE te 12 8 36 389 10.8 6 35 3.0 32.4
2008 28 NWE TE 14 9 22 209 9.5 2 29 1.6 14.9
2009 29 NWE TE 16 7 29 404 13.9 5 36 1.8 25.3
2010 30 CLE TE 16 16 68 763 11.2 3 44 4
The answer seems simple: he was being under utilized by the Pats and he left. He had by far his best career numbers with the Browns.
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Hillis-iz-Boss said:
Something that is bound to happen when you draft two recieving tight ends on a team that has Tom Brady as a QB and lost their #1 receiver (Moss due to age/stupidness) and were never able to replace him (Branch isn't the answer). If you put Watson on that team and make him a legit starting TE that doesn't line up in the slot he does as good if not better.Wow. Just wow.
Wow. Just wow.
Why wow. When you emphasize most of your passing offense around two rookie TE's then they are going to make catches when one of the best QB's in football is throwing to them. They tried to utilize these guys so much that when they were in 1 TE sets they would line the other one up in the slot to keep him in the game. In the past when Watson still played there they had a legit #1 speed option for deep plays (A good Branch, and then Moss before this season) and then a good underneath option in Welker who did as good as he did because of most of the focus being on those speed WR's. This year more focus was able to be put on Welker so the offense was focused more on the TE, and when you have your to TE in at the same time on 75% of the plays, and they are being thrown to by a top 3 QB, the will combine for more yards than other TE's.
I stick by my statement that Watson is at the VERY LEAST just as good as these two TE's and that he would have more than likely done better than those two if he had still been in NE. The only guy in our division that is close to Watson is Heap and it's close.
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The problem with ranking TE's by just receiving numbers is obvious. In some offenses, the TE is an integral blocker. In some systems, the TE is just a bigger slot receiver. Dallas Clark is a good example. BTW, he is no better than JacobTamme or anyone else the Colts want to put in that position for Peyton to throw it to. For my money, Heath Miller, Brent Celek, and Jason Witten are the best block/catch TE's in the league
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I'm still trying to figure out why anyone is labeling Watson as anything special. Seriously.
I don't know about "special", but what he was was the most productive TE in the division. You denigrate this by saying that he was a rookie QBs best option. So what? Maybe he was the best option because he was the best at what he does.
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone is labeling Watson as anything special. Seriously.
I don't know about "special", but what he was was the most productive TE in the division. You denigrate this by saying that he was a rookie QBs best option. So what? Maybe he was the best option because he was the best at what he does.
Best option on the Browns and unfortunately for you guys that isn't saying much. Ben Watson is certainly a athletic TE but he's no where close to the best in the division and saw the numbers he saw this season because A. Colt McCoy being a rookie. B. Best option in a very poor passing attack. Please don't try and argue otherwise because you'd only end up dancing a dance you have no business dancing. (As far as the poor core is concerned) He was let go by the Patriots for a reason and signed with the Browns because there wasn't much interest elsewhere.
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I'm still trying to figure out why anyone is labeling Watson as anything special. Seriously.
I don't know about "special", but what he was was the most productive TE in the division. You denigrate this by saying that he was a rookie QBs best option. So what? Maybe he was the best option because he was the best at what he does.
Best option on the Browns and unfortunately for you guys that isn't saying much. Ben Watson is certainly a athletic TE but he's no where close to the best in the division and saw the numbers he saw this season because A. Colt McCoy being a rookie. B. Best option in a very poor passing attack. Please don't try and argue otherwise because you'd only end up dancing a dance you have no business dancing. (As far as the poor core is concerned) He was let go by the Patriots for a reason and signed with the Browns because there wasn't much interest elsewhere.
Homotron said:
Best option on the Browns and unfortunately for you guys that isn't saying much. Ben Watson is certainly a athletic TE but he's no where close to the best in the division and saw the numbers he saw this season because A. Colt McCoy being a rookie. B. Best option in a very poor passing attack. Please don't try and argue otherwise because you'd only end up dancing a dance you have no business dancing. (As far as the poor core is concerned) He was let go by the Patriots for a reason and signed with the Browns because there wasn't much interest elsewhere.You are the one trying to dance the twist with yourself. The fact is, the proof is in the pudding.
The numbers support the fact that Ben Watson had the best year of any AFCN Tight End. On the field.....not in the hypothetical dream world.
Ben Watson made the Browns passing attack better by his presence and by his production. The fact that he did so well despite the poor performance of the WR corps to me speaks of his quality, not the other way around as you are so unsuccessfully trying to contort.
And because a guy is let go by another team doesn't necessarily mean anything other than he may not have fit that system.
The Steelers let go of Johnny Unitas because he apparently didn't fit that system. So, history is replete with that sort of thing. the Browns let go of Willie Davis and Henry Jordan because they didn't fit their system. I am sure we could find hundreds of other more recent examples. People make mistakes...even Belichoke.
Or maybe it wasn't a mistake for him. Watson may not have been the right fit for him. Maybe Watson fits another system better. He certainly has proven capable in the system the Browns used last year. Of course now the Browns will be going to a different system. I don't know why Watson shouldn't fit right into the North Coast Offense that Shurmur is going to run. Previous successful WCOs have always used a good TE, like Brent Jones of the 49ers etc.
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Homotron said:
Best option on the Browns and unfortunately for you guys that isn't saying much. Ben Watson is certainly a athletic TE but he's no where close to the best in the division and saw the numbers he saw this season because A. Colt McCoy being a rookie. B. Best option in a very poor passing attack. Please don't try and argue otherwise because you'd only end up dancing a dance you have no business dancing. (As far as the poor core is concerned) He was let go by the Patriots for a reason and signed with the Browns because there wasn't much interest elsewhere.You are the one trying to dance the twist with yourself. The fact is, the proof is in the pudding.
The numbers support the fact that Ben Watson had the best year of any AFCN Tight End. On the field.....not in the hypothetical dream world.
Ben Watson made the Browns passing attack better by his presence and by his production. The fact that he did so well despite the poor performance of the WR corps to me speaks of his quality, not the other way around as you are so unsuccessfully trying to contort.
And because a guy is let go by another team doesn't necessarily mean anything other than he may not have fit that system.
The Steelers let go of Johnny Unitas because he apparently didn't fit that system. So, history is replete with that sort of thing. the Browns let go of Willie Davis and Henry Jordan because they didn't fit their system. I am sure we could find hundreds of other more recent examples. People make mistakes...even Belichoke.
Or maybe it wasn't a mistake for him. Watson may not have been the right fit for him. Maybe Watson fits another system better. He certainly has proven capable in the system the Browns used last year. Of course now the Browns will be going to a different system. I don't know why Watson shouldn't fit right into the North Coast Offense that Shurmur is going to run. Previous successful WCOs have always used a good TE, like Brent Jones of the 49ers etc.
You are the one trying to dance the twist with yourself. The fact is, the proof is in the pudding.
The numbers support the fact that Ben Watson had the best year of any AFCN Tight End. On the field.....not in the hypothetical dream world.
Ben Watson made the Browns passing attack better by his presence and by his production. The fact that he did so well despite the poor performance of the WR corps to me speaks of his quality, not the other way around as you are so unsuccessfully trying to contort.
And because a guy is let go by another team doesn't necessarily mean anything other than he may not have fit that system.
The Steelers let go of Johnny Unitas because he apparently didn't fit that system. So, history is replete with that sort of thing. the Browns let go of Willie Davis and Henry Jordan because they didn't fit their system. I am sure we could find hundreds of other more recent examples. People make mistakes...even Belichoke.
Or maybe it wasn't a mistake for him. Watson may not have been the right fit for him. Maybe Watson fits another system better. He certainly has proven capable in the system the Browns used last year. Of course now the Browns will be going to a different system. I don't know why Watson shouldn't fit right into the North Coast Offense that Shurmur is going to run. Previous successful WCOs have always used a good TE, like Brent Jones of the 49ers etc.
I don't agree with a lot of what you posted but still wanted to thank you for a well thought out, intelligent post that lacked the usual insults that bring this board down.
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You are the one trying to dance the twist with yourself. The fact is, the proof is in the pudding.
The numbers support the fact that Ben Watson had the best year of any AFCN Tight End. On the field.....not in the hypothetical dream world.
Ben Watson made the Browns passing attack better by his presence and by his production. The fact that he did so well despite the poor performance of the WR corps to me speaks of his quality, not the other way around as you are so unsuccessfully trying to contort.
And because a guy is let go by another team doesn't necessarily mean anything other than he may not have fit that system.
The Steelers let go of Johnny Unitas because he apparently didn't fit that system. So, history is replete with that sort of thing. the Browns let go of Willie Davis and Henry Jordan because they didn't fit their system. I am sure we could find hundreds of other more recent examples. People make mistakes...even Belichoke.
Or maybe it wasn't a mistake for him. Watson may not have been the right fit for him. Maybe Watson fits another system better. He certainly has proven capable in the system the Browns used last year. Of course now the Browns will be going to a different system. I don't know why Watson shouldn't fit right into the North Coast Offense that Shurmur is going to run. Previous successful WCOs have always used a good TE, like Brent Jones of the 49ers etc.
I don't agree with a lot of what you posted but still wanted to thank you for a well thought out, intelligent post that lacked the usual insults that bring this board down.
I don't agree with a lot of what you posted but still wanted to thank you for a well thought out, intelligent post that lacked the usual insults that bring this board down.
What do you disagree with precisely?
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I don't agree with a lot of what you posted but still wanted to thank you for a well thought out, intelligent post that lacked the usual insults that bring this board down.
What do you disagree with precisely?
What do you disagree with precisely?
For starters, I think the lack of a WR corp inflated his numbers, not the opposite. Also, I disagree with implying that Belichek made a mistake by letting him go considering the production NE got from the TE position this year.
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What do you disagree with precisely?
For starters, I think the lack of a WR corp inflated his numbers, not the opposite. Also, I disagree with implying that Belichek made a mistake by letting him go considering the production NE got from the TE position this year.
For starters, I think the lack of a WR corp inflated his numbers, not the opposite. Also, I disagree with implying that Belichek made a mistake by letting him go considering the production NE got from the TE position this year.
Think about it like this, if the WR were bad then wouldn't that mean that they would focus more on Watson in coverage. You could cover each WR on our roster with one guy and easily put two on Watson since he was our only reciving option. I can understand why you feel that no WR production means that Watson was focused on more by our QB's, but that does also mean he was focused on more by opposing defenses. I also credit Watson for his production becuase he got production evenly over the course of the season even though we had 3 different starters.
I will agree that Belichek didn't make a mistake by letting Watson go. I can go over all day why Watson didn't produce well in NE but the bottom line is that he didn't produce well there. For the price that they would have had to pay Watson to stay they were able to draft and pay 2 rookie TE the same price who by all accounts fit in their system a little better and did do well this year.
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Homotron said:
Best option on the Browns and unfortunately for you guys that isn't saying much. Ben Watson is certainly a athletic TE but he's no where close to the best in the division and saw the numbers he saw this season because A. Colt McCoy being a rookie. B. Best option in a very poor passing attack. Please don't try and argue otherwise because you'd only end up dancing a dance you have no business dancing. (As far as the poor core is concerned) He was let go by the Patriots for a reason and signed with the Browns because there wasn't much interest elsewhere.You are the one trying to dance the twist with yourself. The fact is, the proof is in the pudding.
The numbers support the fact that Ben Watson had the best year of any AFCN Tight End. On the field.....not in the hypothetical dream world.
Ben Watson made the Browns passing attack better by his presence and by his production. The fact that he did so well despite the poor performance of the WR corps to me speaks of his quality, not the other way around as you are so unsuccessfully trying to contort.
And because a guy is let go by another team doesn't necessarily mean anything other than he may not have fit that system.
The Steelers let go of Johnny Unitas because he apparently didn't fit that system. So, history is replete with that sort of thing. the Browns let go of Willie Davis and Henry Jordan because they didn't fit their system. I am sure we could find hundreds of other more recent examples. People make mistakes...even Belichoke.
Or maybe it wasn't a mistake for him. Watson may not have been the right fit for him. Maybe Watson fits another system better. He certainly has proven capable in the system the Browns used last year. Of course now the Browns will be going to a different system. I don't know why Watson shouldn't fit right into the North Coast Offense that Shurmur is going to run. Previous successful WCOs have always used a good TE, like Brent Jones of the 49ers etc.
You are the one trying to dance the twist with yourself. The fact is, the proof is in the pudding.
The numbers support the fact that Ben Watson had the best year of any AFCN Tight End. On the field.....not in the hypothetical dream world.
Ben Watson made the Browns passing attack better by his presence and by his production. The fact that he did so well despite the poor performance of the WR corps to me speaks of his quality, not the other way around as you are so unsuccessfully trying to contort.
And because a guy is let go by another team doesn't necessarily mean anything other than he may not have fit that system.
The Steelers let go of Johnny Unitas because he apparently didn't fit that system. So, history is replete with that sort of thing. the Browns let go of Willie Davis and Henry Jordan because they didn't fit their system. I am sure we could find hundreds of other more recent examples. People make mistakes...even Belichoke.
Or maybe it wasn't a mistake for him. Watson may not have been the right fit for him. Maybe Watson fits another system better. He certainly has proven capable in the system the Browns used last year. Of course now the Browns will be going to a different system. I don't know why Watson shouldn't fit right into the North Coast Offense that Shurmur is going to run. Previous successful WCOs have always used a good TE, like Brent Jones of the 49ers etc.
good post, gipper. the belief that watson had a good year simply because colt had no other options is purely insane. to suggest being on a team with a lack of a receiving corp makes one better makes you question a person's sanity or it's just further proof as to what some people's real agendas on this board really are (steeler fan trolling perhaps? lol).
yes, watson may have been the only reliable target colt had, but i'm sure you'll agree with me when i say that watson still had to get open, run his routes correctly and catch the ball consistently. in order for watson to be able to do that, he would have to be a good te.
there's nothing to really argue with on that point. people can argue who was the best overall te, best blocking te, etc. all day, but the bottom line is that watson's abilities aren't magically produced or inflated by the fact that other people on his team can't get open, run their routes correctly or catch the ball consistently.
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