What Are The Pundits Saying?
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Some people want the cart before the horse and or the glory of tagging the big names only to watch their spirit degenerate in a still undeveloped team frame..
The guys/workhorses we wanted were gone and atlanta offered the farm on a big gamble with jones and now next year we will have at minimal our own pick likely in the top 10 and atlanta's pick at the very worst at 32 but more likely around 22 and we will have a much, much clearer view on what we will need to advance then than we have now providing there is a season this year..
We gained a couple mean dudes in taylor and sheard for our defensive line and im quite happy about that and little whom is not so little will be a perfect target for colts accurate arm and skrine has blazing speed and athleticism plus a vertical that makes up for his shorter stature, im looking forward to seeing these guys develop and even more forward to next year, i give this draft a B with the on field potential of an A it was a solid draft with the results i expected with heckert running the show and that being getting guys i have never heard of that will likely contribute in a big way now with extra picks for next year...
I also like the fact that shurmur an offensive minded coach fully understands the importance of a mean defense in the AFC North, its been something we have not had since our return and i think we are barking up the right tree this time..
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According the this douche bag all linemen are a waste of money and should only be had in the 4th round. I think I know of 100% of people in football would would disagree. Also Taylor is 335, far from the 380 you claim. If your going to troll, then do it with accurate info.
Hillis-iz-Boss said:
According the this douche bag all linemen are a waste of money and should only be had in the 4th round. I think I know of 100% of people in football would would disagree. Also Taylor is 335, far from the 380 you claim. If your going to troll, then do it with accurate info.
Word
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Its funny when experts try to give draft grades..
I believe this is a defining moment for the heckert era and the browns. If this year and next years draft turn out solid the browns will be in good shape.
2009 draft was butchered. Three 2nd rd picks and what do we really have to show for it??? Thanks mangini!
All I can say is I'm so glad that at least we don't have 40 aging ex jets on our team anymore
Its funny when experts try to give draft grades..
I believe this is a defining moment for the heckert era and the browns. If this year and next years draft turn out solid the browns will be in good shape.
2009 draft was butchered. Three 2nd rd picks and what do we really have to show for it??? Thanks mangini!
All I can say is I'm so glad that at least we don't have 40 aging ex jets on our team anymore
When we draft bad it solely lies on the shoulders of the coach ... when we draft (possibly) well it lies solely on the shoulders of the GM. I love how that works.
PS Jury is still out on MoMass and Robo as WR's generally take some time to develop. MoMass has shown glimpses of being a pretty decent second WR. And Mack made the pro bowl in his second year and is going to be our starting center for years to come unless something fluke happens. Granted 2009 wasn't a great draft ... but when you defintly have a pro bowler and potentially have another starter and a third possible contributor it is hard to throw around the word "butchered" Plus after round 1 of that draft it really wasn't a too strong of a draft class. Just saying.
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Its funny when experts try to give draft grades..
I believe this is a defining moment for the heckert era and the browns. If this year and next years draft turn out solid the browns will be in good shape.
2009 draft was butchered. Three 2nd rd picks and what do we really have to show for it??? Thanks mangini!
All I can say is I'm so glad that at least we don't have 40 aging ex jets on our team anymore
When we draft bad it solely lies on the shoulders of the coach ... when we draft (possibly) well it lies solely on the shoulders of the GM. I love how that works.
PS Jury is still out on MoMass and Robo as WR's generally take some time to develop. MoMass has shown glimpses of being a pretty decent second WR. And Mack made the pro bowl in his second year and is going to be our starting center for years to come unless something fluke happens. Granted 2009 wasn't a great draft ... but when you defintly have a pro bowler and potentially have another starter and a third possible contributor it is hard to throw around the word "butchered" Plus after round 1 of that draft it really wasn't a too strong of a draft class. Just saying.
When we draft bad it solely lies on the shoulders of the coach ... when we draft (possibly) well it lies solely on the shoulders of the GM. I love how that works.
PS Jury is still out on MoMass and Robo as WR's generally take some time to develop. MoMass has shown glimpses of being a pretty decent second WR. And Mack made the pro bowl in his second year and is going to be our starting center for years to come unless something fluke happens. Granted 2009 wasn't a great draft ... but when you defintly have a pro bowler and potentially have another starter and a third possible contributor it is hard to throw around the word "butchered" Plus after round 1 of that draft it really wasn't a too strong of a draft class. Just saying.
The reason that people blame that draft on Mangini is because he basically was the acting GM. It's the reason the Browns fired there GM halfway through the season because they were paying him to literally do nothing because he left everything to Mangini. Mangini made every pick in the 2009 draft with zero help from our current GM. The reason the 2009 draft is also considered a failure is because of the trade in the first round. Ya we got Mack out of it who is a great player, but we took players (only one is left and it is uncertain if he is even going to be resigned) and picks in that years draft that have not panned out (one is already cut from the team). Ya maybe MoMass or Robiskie turn into a good second or third WR, but the idea was the pick a #1 guy to eventually replace Edwards. Wallace was taken in the third round and as of now shows to have a better chance of being a #1 guy and at best I thin Robo has shown to be a #2 in a few years while MoMass has failed to get any better over the past two seasons.
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Its funny when experts try to give draft grades..
I believe this is a defining moment for the heckert era and the browns. If this year and next years draft turn out solid the browns will be in good shape.
2009 draft was butchered. Three 2nd rd picks and what do we really have to show for it??? Thanks mangini!
All I can say is I'm so glad that at least we don't have 40 aging ex jets on our team anymore
Its funny when experts try to give draft grades..
I believe this is a defining moment for the heckert era and the browns. If this year and next years draft turn out solid the browns will be in good shape.
2009 draft was butchered. Three 2nd rd picks and what do we really have to show for it??? Thanks mangini!
All I can say is I'm so glad that at least we don't have 40 aging ex jets on our team anymore
Yeah the only pick I liked in the 2nd round that year was Massaquoi, Robiskie could have been had much later, and Veikune was just a horrible reach. The guy played in 10 games and recorded 0 tackles. The Mack pick was fine and I liked it, but Mangini barely got anything for the trade down.
We could have picked Jairus Byrd, who is a pro bowl safety for the Bills now(went right after Robiskie), Massaquoi/Loadholt(OT), Mike Wallace WR, in that order.
Mangini was a much better coach than evaluator of talent, at least he striked on the deal to get Hillis for Quinn, but I think that was also on McDaniel's blind hatred of Hillis for whatever reason.
As a side note even though I think Mangini was generally good and not bad, I feel that Holmgren felt that way as well but he didn't have 100% confidence in him, so it was for the best to fire Mangini sooner than later.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
Fluck the pundits, they don't know a thing. Let NostraThomas tell you why this draft does not hold a high probability of success for the Browns, and may turn out to be one of th worst in recent times.
Let's say Tan and I go out one Saturday night and I am given the task of getting one girl for me and one for Stan. Stipulations are that we go to two bars and I can only pick one girl from each bar. The first place is a echno Dance club, full of hot babes. Ghoolie pickes out his babe and off we go to club number 2. It is a polka dance and there are plenty of fat asses who would be willing to go out with Stan. I pick his fatass and away we go.
Now, it would have been IDIOTIC for me to pick a fatass for Stan at the Techno club and then tried to find a hot babe for me at the polka dance.
The lesson? The FIRST DRAFT ROUND is where ALL THE HOT prospects are. The game changers.
We went to that dance and drafted a FATASS. And we are hoping to find a BABE at the polka dance.
Now, the draft is a crap shoot for sure, BUT IN GENERAL........... if you're picking at the top of the heap, you're going to find better players over the life of your drafting years.
Can we find a future HOF WR in #3? Sure, but it isn't highly probable.
It is physically impossible for the fatass we drafted to make any noticeable impact on the Cleveland Browns and here is why.
1) The athletic difference between fatasses taken in all rounds, is nil, minimal, indistinguishable. A 380 pound fatass is a 380 pound fatass. None of these guys have super speed, super agility or super strength. A 380 pound fatass is a 380 pound fatass.
2) Interior linemen get hurt regularly. Why? Because they are clumsy fatasses who spend their time having other clumsy fatasses fall on them and break their bones and injure supporting ligaments and tendons. An interior linemen is not going to play all of the games, so even if he IS a bit better than the other fatasses, 90% of our defensive plays will have MOSTLY run-of-the-mill fatasses.
3) Without offensive weapons, this young fatass is going to be on the field more than he ever had to be in college.. Result? This fatass is going to tire out and again, opposing offenses will have a wee bit more in the tank than our defense does.
Joe Thomas was another total waste of a draft pick. We drafted a block rump (a solid fatass) and what impact did it make on our offense? ABSOLUTELY NONE.......... our offense sucked just as bad with him as it did without him.
Horrible, horrible draft, in my opinion.
Save this post. When opposing fatasses start falling on our newest fatass. you will indeed call me NostraThomas.
Let's hope we are going to go apeshit in the FA market. If we don't, this will be another 3- 13 type of team.
Horrible, horrible drafting.
Tom here's why we did what we did. You remember Kevin Mack? Pretty good running back no? Remember him running up the backs of our fatasses because our fatasses couldn't move their fatasses out of the way?
The Browns were 27th in run defense last year- newsflash in the AFC North- that ain't good enough- the Squealers were #1 in that regard. That means our defensive fatasses were getting shoved around like rag dolls by other team's offensive fatasses. Ergo, the need to get ourselves better fattasses for defense, and at least one more offensive line fatass.
BTW, in the first round this year- 19 of the 32 picks were devoted to fatasses- so by your book, over half of the league's GMs are dumb asses? The Colts drafted TWO fatasses- because their fatasses weren't good enough anymore to prevent Peyton Manning from getting killed- the guys getting a little old, and can't duck as fast as he used to.
You can have the best running backs and wide receivers in the world, but they will do you no good if there's no holes for the running backs to get through, or the quarterback can't get his stud wideouts the ball because he's either running for his life, or lying on his back staring up at the sky after he's been smashed. Ask Joe Montana about that after Lawrence Taylor and his Giants defensive pals knocked him out of a playoff game.
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When we draft bad it solely lies on the shoulders of the coach ... when we draft (possibly) well it lies solely on the shoulders of the GM. I love how that works.
PS Jury is still out on MoMass and Robo as WR's generally take some time to develop. MoMass has shown glimpses of being a pretty decent second WR. And Mack made the pro bowl in his second year and is going to be our starting center for years to come unless something fluke happens. Granted 2009 wasn't a great draft ... but when you defintly have a pro bowler and potentially have another starter and a third possible contributor it is hard to throw around the word "butchered" Plus after round 1 of that draft it really wasn't a too strong of a draft class. Just saying.
The reason that people blame that draft on Mangini is because he basically was the acting GM. It's the reason the Browns fired there GM halfway through the season because they were paying him to literally do nothing because he left everything to Mangini. Mangini made every pick in the 2009 draft with zero help from our current GM. The reason the 2009 draft is also considered a failure is because of the trade in the first round. Ya we got Mack out of it who is a great player, but we took players (only one is left and it is uncertain if he is even going to be resigned) and picks in that years draft that have not panned out (one is already cut from the team). Ya maybe MoMass or Robiskie turn into a good second or third WR, but the idea was the pick a #1 guy to eventually replace Edwards. Wallace was taken in the third round and as of now shows to have a better chance of being a #1 guy and at best I thin Robo has shown to be a #2 in a few years while MoMass has failed to get any better over the past two seasons.
Hillis-iz-Boss said:
The reason that people blame that draft on Mangini is because he basically was the acting GM. It's the reason the Browns fired there GM halfway through the season because they were paying him to literally do nothing because he left everything to Mangini. Mangini made every pick in the 2009 draft with zero help from our current GM. The reason the 2009 draft is also considered a failure is because of the trade in the first round. Ya we got Mack out of it who is a great player, but we took players (only one is left and it is uncertain if he is even going to be resigned) and picks in that years draft that have not panned out (one is already cut from the team). Ya maybe MoMass or Robiskie turn into a good second or third WR, but the idea was the pick a #1 guy to eventually replace Edwards. Wallace was taken in the third round and as of now shows to have a better chance of being a #1 guy and at best I thin Robo has shown to be a #2 in a few years while MoMass has failed to get any better over the past two seasons.
The question to me then is why would a coach be allowed to do the drafting when we hire a GM for that reason? To me a coach drafting is like a running back playing QB. He is out of his element and is going to fail.
I agree that the trade with the Jets was a bit weak ... it wasn't terrible though. We moved 10 spots ... got a second, and a bunch of stop gap type players, and a safety in Elam who actually ended up becoming a pretty good safety. (We may have gotten a couple more picks also) From the perspective that I am at where I HATE Sanchez I don't mind too much. We could have maybe be gotten a little more though which bothers me.
I think the biggest problem with that draft was really that it was a weak draft class like I said. You can easily say in retrospect that you would have grabbed wallace, or Byrd or whoever else actually did pan out .... but take a look at that draft from the second round on ... not many players jump out at you.
Just for the record I won't personally lable the draft as a complete failure ever because we plucked a pro bowler out of it ... In the same breath though I don't want you to think it was a great draft either. I do however think if one or both WR's become steady contributors it could be decent. And I do think one of them will get there act together.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
Fluck the pundits, they don't know a thing. Let NostraThomas tell you why this draft does not hold a high probability of success for the Browns, and may turn out to be one of th worst in recent times.
Let's say Tan and I go out one Saturday night and I am given the task of getting one girl for me and one for Stan. Stipulations are that we go to two bars and I can only pick one girl from each bar. The first place is a echno Dance club, full of hot babes. Ghoolie pickes out his babe and off we go to club number 2. It is a polka dance and there are plenty of fat asses who would be willing to go out with Stan. I pick his fatass and away we go.
Now, it would have been IDIOTIC for me to pick a fatass for Stan at the Techno club and then tried to find a hot babe for me at the polka dance.
The lesson? The FIRST DRAFT ROUND is where ALL THE HOT prospects are. The game changers.
We went to that dance and drafted a FATASS. And we are hoping to find a BABE at the polka dance.
Now, the draft is a crap shoot for sure, BUT IN GENERAL........... if you're picking at the top of the heap, you're going to find better players over the life of your drafting years.
Can we find a future HOF WR in #3? Sure, but it isn't highly probable.
It is physically impossible for the fatass we drafted to make any noticeable impact on the Cleveland Browns and here is why.
1) The athletic difference between fatasses taken in all rounds, is nil, minimal, indistinguishable. A 380 pound fatass is a 380 pound fatass. None of these guys have super speed, super agility or super strength. A 380 pound fatass is a 380 pound fatass.
2) Interior linemen get hurt regularly. Why? Because they are clumsy fatasses who spend their time having other clumsy fatasses fall on them and break their bones and injure supporting ligaments and tendons. An interior linemen is not going to play all of the games, so even if he IS a bit better than the other fatasses, 90% of our defensive plays will have MOSTLY run-of-the-mill fatasses.
3) Without offensive weapons, this young fatass is going to be on the field more than he ever had to be in college.. Result? This fatass is going to tire out and again, opposing offenses will have a wee bit more in the tank than our defense does.
Joe Thomas was another total waste of a draft pick. We drafted a block rump (a solid fatass) and what impact did it make on our offense? ABSOLUTELY NONE.......... our offense sucked just as bad with him as it did without him.
Horrible, horrible draft, in my opinion.
Save this post. When opposing fatasses start falling on our newest fatass. you will indeed call me NostraThomas.
Let's hope we are going to go apeshit in the FA market. If we don't, this will be another 3- 13 type of team.
Horrible, horrible drafting.
That's some funny shit. i read Larry's response and loved it too. You guys crack me up. (BTW, Hoorta is right).
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I bet Ghoolie was a QB in high school who got sacked a bunch, because he sure does hate those "fatasses".
Put 5 200 lbs Adonis' on the line and see how long McCoy stays in the game. Put Brock Lesnar, arguably the most musclebound man in professional sports, at NT and see how often our defense stops the inside run. There's a reason he didn't cut it with the Vikings. There's a reason Heckert and others are paid millions to draft these guys while you're sitting on your bum complaining we didn't take enough receivers. Like it or not, these "fatasses" are good at their jobs, and they are the most important price to piecing together a winning team.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
Look,
I have been listening to you "system" guys for a long, long, long time. For some reason Cleveland fans, media and pundits have long forgotten what the winning Browns teams were built around.
Sorry, no I haven't.
Offensive linemen are a dime-adozen. Very few has put more money into OL over the last 5 years than the Browns. Has the team improved? No, not one IOTA. NADA!
Had Jim Brown not gone to Cleveland, NOBODY would have ever heard of Gene Hickerson. (Slow, unathletic fatass)
The recent SB winners ALL won with their starting OL mostly gone or injured.
Am I saying these ingredients aren't important? No, BUT, if it were left to you guys all you would ever draft in the high rounds would be OL players.
You know who drafts fatasses in the first or second round almost every year? The Pittsburgh Steelers. Whoops, looks like they did it again last week. Hasn't hurt them much- you just have to draft the right fatass, like Casey Hampton, who's going to wind up in the HOF most likely.
Again, Barry Sanders was great because of his OL? Oh, wait, I know, he was a freak, an exception!
ABSOLUTELY!
BULLCRAP.................
The guys who regularly touch the ball make or break a football team. A team that has a great QB, threatening WRs and a strong pair of RBs give the OL an EASY TIME, because the D cannot key on any one part of the game.
The Browns have no offensive weapons and just like the opposition got wise to Droughns, they will shut Hillis down this year.
Joe Thomas was a waste, his equal could have been had in the 3d round, no doubts about it. Hell, the guy STILL gets manhandled by the better DEs, Freeney for sure bitch slaps fatass Thomas.
BULLSHIT. Yeah, Thomas had a bad game against Freeney, I suppose Jim Brown never had an off day either. Thomas has had seasons where he didn't give up a sack- that's why left tackles go so damn high in the draft- they prevent a right handed quarterback getting his spine broken in half by an opposing defensive lineman that they can't see coming.
Here are the facts. The Browns are as foundationally solid as 90% of the NFL teams. Proof? WIth shitty skill players the performed admirably.
All those close games? If we had ANY playmakers, we would have fared much better.
Said it once, and I'll say it again- you put great playmakers behind a total crap o-line, and you still wind up 3-13, AND wind up with a quarterback or three on Injured Reserve. Incidentally, an offensive line is only as strong as it's weakest link, and (Turnstile) St Clair was mighty weak. Defenses could overload the right side, and pour on past the stiff like he wasn't even there.
Football isnt all X's and O's. A lot of it is pure, individual athletic performance.
ALl the good teams have those kind of players, THe Browns don't. Therefor the Browns will be a 3 -12 to 5 - 11 team in 2011.
So let it be said, so let it be written.
I haven't been wrong yet. (Our 1st round pick will have absolutely no impact)
He will have no impact if you want to be superficial about it. Go ask some of our resident Steeler trolls how "little" impact Casey Hampton has had on their defense over the years.
GO back and look at how little the great 49 ers teams paid their fatasses.
Um sorry, the 49ers paid Harris Barton and Randy Cross plenty of money to keep Joe Montana healthy.
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NostraThomas is upset because the Browns never seem to draft what he wants.
Nosta says we have no offensive weapons. I disagree.
Hillis....weapon, but since he is against fatasses, he doesn't count.
Cribbs...I think many teams would like him.
And I think he will be very pleased with Little...a 3rd rounder....and Nostra...wide outs are your dime a dozen position.
Nostra also says it isn't about X's and O's....that is about as far off base as it gets. Football is all about X's and O's...at least football from HS on. Sure, the backyard variety which sounds like the extent of his playing experience is all about athletic ability...." Tommy, just run deep and I'll toss you a bomb."
It's very rare a football player just takes over a game...and it sure as hell isn't a wide receiver. if anything, defender have a far greater chance of dominating a game then do offensive players.
To me, the only thing I wanted to see which we didn't get in this draft was a smaller, scatback type running back.
I think we may have has some targeted, but they were either selected before we could pick them or better players who we didn't expect to be there, were.
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Gene Hickerson was known in his Era,one of not the most atheletic guard of his time...Dont believe it?...Ask Jimmy Brown who ran behind him...And remember your prognostication of Kellen Winslow?...Hes still playing by the way. Ghoulie,I understand your frustration Man.But,calling Joe Thomas a waste is a reach too. Im not crazy about the entire draft either but, I dont think its entirely bad. I love the Greg Little pick. I think down the road he will fare better than Julio Jones. this draft class to Me doesnt come off as great...but, We'll see.
Nickers...."There are no old running QB's in the NFL "~Sam Rutigliano~ -
Now I feel bad chastising a person who's obviously mentally inept as well as a complete douchebag.
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Gene Hickerson was known in his Era,one of not the most atheletic guard of his time...Dont believe it?...Ask Jimmy Brown who ran behind him...And remember your prognostication of Kellen Winslow?...Hes still playing by the way. Ghoulie,I understand your frustration Man.But,calling Joe Thomas a waste is a reach too. Im not crazy about the entire draft either but, I dont think its entirely bad. I love the Greg Little pick. I think down the road he will fare better than Julio Jones. this draft class to Me doesnt come off as great...but, We'll see.
Gene Hickerson was known in his Era,one of not the most atheletic guard of his time...Dont believe it?...Ask Jimmy Brown who ran behind him...And remember your prognostication of Kellen Winslow?...Hes still playing by the way. Ghoulie,I understand your frustration Man.But,calling Joe Thomas a waste is a reach too. Im not crazy about the entire draft either but, I dont think its entirely bad. I love the Greg Little pick. I think down the road he will fare better than Julio Jones. this draft class to Me doesnt come off as great...but, We'll see.
Tom Heckerts drafts have never raised to many eyebrows but the on field results he has yielded over the years are fairly indisputable and rock solid..
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Gene Hickerson was known in his Era,one of not the most atheletic guard of his time...Dont believe it?...Ask Jimmy Brown who ran behind him...And remember your prognostication of Kellen Winslow?...Hes still playing by the way. Ghoulie,I understand your frustration Man.But,calling Joe Thomas a waste is a reach too. Im not crazy about the entire draft either but, I dont think its entirely bad. I love the Greg Little pick. I think down the road he will fare better than Julio Jones. this draft class to Me doesnt come off as great...but, We'll see.
Tom Heckerts drafts have never raised to many eyebrows but the on field results he has yielded over the years are fairly indisputable and rock solid..
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
Look,
The recent SB winners ALL won with their starting OL mostly gone or injured.
Am I saying these ingredients aren't important? No, BUT, if it were left to you guys all you would ever draft in the high rounds would be OL players.
I would argue that is because of their depth on the Oline and Dline that they were able to sustain injuries and still compete at a high level.
Green Bay's last 5 first round picks went OL, OT, DT, LB DT.
Pittsburgh's Last 3 first round picks went DT, C, DT
NO has two "fat asses" as first round picks in their last 5.
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I gotta agree that you need playmakers as well as O-Lineman like Thomas, and if you dont believe me just ask Barry Sanders..Arguably the greatest playmaker of all time and yet only made the playoffs in his career twice i believe then decided he was tired of it and called it quits early, i think he'd be the first to tell you that he never had a chance from the start.
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If these draft guys were experts, the majority of the NFL would not be made up of undrafted athletes aka guys that play their entire career with a chip on their shoulder.
If these draft guys were experts, the majority of the NFL would not be made up of undrafted athletes aka guys that play their entire career with a chip on their shoulder.
Majority? I doubt it. Occasionally, undrafted guys hit it big (Kurt Warner, Tony Romo, Jeff Saturday, James Harrison, and Antonio Gates- yeah, I had to look it up), but there's probably not many more in that category currently playing in the NFL.
BTW, the draft is only 7 rounds now, cut down from 17. So a lot of the "undrafted" players would have been picked up back in the day.
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