Peter King On When Browns Become Legit Playoff Contenders

The Gipper

@manbearpig said:

In regards to the title of this thread... I would say, "Behind a potent offense that included future Hall of Famers Graham, Motley and Dante Lavelli, the Browns picked up right where they left off in the AAFC. After going 10–2 in the regular season, they defeated the New York Giants 8–3 in a playoff game and then beat Cleveland's previous NFL tenants, the Rams (who were now in Los Angeles), 30–28, in the NFL Championship Game. Since the NFL does not recognize the AAFC's records, this technically makes the Browns the most successful expansion team in league history. However, the 1950 Browns were not an expansion team in any sense of the term." Ok so I would say that they are and were playoff contenders right from the get go. Let's see what happens this season.

If the Browns had played in the NFL in the years 46-49, they very may well have also won 4 titles in a row there. I think they would have been a shoe-in to win 3. The only real contest would have been in 1946 when the Bears won the NFL title. Those Bears and the Browns could have had an epic battle. The '47 Cards and the 48 and 49 Eagles would have been no match for the Browns.

wvdawg

8-8 should be the goal.. I don't see them winning anymore than that.. .500 record and I'll be extremely happy.. realistically though I see them winning 5 to 7 games

USFBrown

New coach. New offense. Mediocre players. Ill leave it at that.

next2nothing

I'm mainly going to be looking at how our younger players play and the kinds of decisions Shurmur makes.

The playoffs aren't impossible but I'm not going to set myself up for disappointment.

calfoxwc

The playoffs are what happen, when "it" all comes together. If you need an elite wr, a few dominant linemen, another buttkickin rb, another very fast cb, ....

and you get the Browns first excellent coach in years....and you've drafted very smart players who love the game, work ethic and solid guys ....

which I believe the Browns have been doing, and certainly did this year.... with a system that better suits the package?

It happened for the Rams - I believe it may very well happen this year for the Browns. By the way, the Rams had drafted their bookend left tackle a few years before a few years before it happened for them.

***********************

St. Louis RamsFurther information: 1999 St. Louis Rams seasonThe Rams shocked the NFL in 1999 with an NFC-best 133 regular season record, only a year after finishing 4-12. This was the Rams' first playoff appearance in 10 years and only the second Super Bowl appearance in team history.^[9] St. Louis was led by undrafted quarterback Kurt Warner, who started the season as backup to Trent Green. Green suffered a season-ending injury in the preseason, making Warner the team's new starter. Warner previously played for the Iowa Barnstormers of the Arena Football League and the Amsterdam Admirals of NFL Europe.^[10]

Vagitron

Zombo said:

Super Bowl.

Colt McCoy is the next NFL Legend.

Peyton Hillis is a truck.

Scott Fujita is a leader of men.

Hayden, Ward and Rubin will be Pro Bowlers.

Thomas and Mack are perennial Pro Bowlers.

Greg Little is Rookie of the year.

This team reminds me of a 5-11 team a decade ago with a second year qb who was drafted late ... They were the NE Patriots.

Super Bowl.

Zombo

Greg Little will not be rookie of the year. He's still really raw, didn't play football last year and will be in a tough, tough division. Rubin won't be a Pro-Bowler either, neither will Ward. Obviously you're going hard and over the top and I'd say there is reason for some excitement in Cleveland but please tell me the above is exaggerated.

secondwave

Homotron said:

Greg Little will not be rookie of the year. He's still really raw, didn't play football last year and will be in a tough, tough division. Rubin won't be a Pro-Bowler either, neither will Ward. Obviously you're going hard and over the top and I'd say there is reason for some excitement in Cleveland but please tell me the above is exaggerated.

nickers

Homotron said:

Greg Little will not be rookie of the year. He's still really raw, didn't play football last year and will be in a tough, tough division. Rubin won't be a Pro-Bowler either, neither will Ward. Obviously you're going hard and over the top and I'd say there is reason for some excitement in Cleveland but please tell me the above is exaggerated.

As far as Little goes I mostly agree with you,However. I dont think any of the above is not a impossibility. Ward especially looks like he can become one of the better safeties in the league and Rubin is very solid. Rubin isnt exactly garbage. The bigger question is. "Will We make the Playoffs" ?....Probably not but, Not impossible. That would be like saying the Stoolers will win 0 games next season. And we both know thats silly. If you had watched Ward "Every week" Like we did...you would see why some of us see pro-bowler potential in the kid. While Rubin is not the biggest DT in the league,hes done more than hold his own. watching these kids only 2 times a year when we play each other isnt gonna give you a real sense of what these kids can do. Im not in any way calling them the Elite at thier respective Positions. But watch them over time before you make ignorant comments like the one you posted up above. Because you definately dont know what the hell your talking about.

Harry Buffalo

If Ward works on his hands for next season that along nets him at least 3-4 more INT's than last year. He could also improve in his coverage, but at the same time he is a SS and he didn't do too bad in coverage last year. Rubin I think got snubbed from the pro bowl last year as well. He was clearly one of the best NT last season and he registered the most tackles out of any DT last season.

Vagitron

@nickers said:

As far as Little goes I mostly agree with you,However. I dont think any of the above is not a impossibility. Ward especially looks like he can become one of the better safeties in the league and Rubin is very solid. Rubin isnt exactly garbage. The bigger question is. "Will We make the Playoffs" ?....Probably not but, Not impossible. That would be like saying the Stoolers will win 0 games next season. And we both know thats silly. If you had watched Ward "Every week" Like we did...you would see why some of us see pro-bowler potential in the kid. While Rubin is not the biggest DT in the league,hes done more than hold his own. watching these kids only 2 times a year when we play each other isnt gonna give you a real sense of what these kids can do. Im not in any way calling them the Elite at thier respective Positions. But watch them over time before you make ignorant comments like the one you posted up above. Because you definately dont know what the hell your talking about.

Ignorant comments? I've watched plenty of the Cleveland Browns over the years and I wasn't implying the above players were/are garbage. What I WAS doing was weighing in their chances against others in the AFC at their positions. Assuming Ed Reed is healthy as well as Troy that's two safeties in the AFC grabbing spots. Rubin also has some steep competition and his position just in the AFC north not to mention the entire AFC. I don't feel that either player is bad but neither is good enough right now to warrant a pro-bowl selection considering the competition.

nickers

Homotron said:

Ignorant comments? I've watched plenty of the Cleveland Browns over the years and I wasn't implying the above players were/are garbage. What I WAS doing was weighing in their chances against others in the AFC at their positions. Assuming Ed Reed is healthy as well as Troy that's two safeties in the AFC grabbing spots. Rubin also has some steep competition and his position just in the AFC north not to mention the entire AFC. I don't feel that either player is bad but neither is good enough right now to warrant a pro-bowl selection considering the competition.

You forget though the pro bowl selects atleast 3 people for each spot at said positions and alternates...and winning cures that...so I think given the scope...the chances are better than you think they are.

Riffer X

Ward needs to be in the box, which is why it is so important to find someone who is competent at FS. Hagg is a possibility, could be a real steal.

beefjerky

After I made a long post in this thread: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19520 , I would have to agree, this all lies on Colt McCoy at this point, we will see what runs amuck for the Browns for years to come next year, consistent playoff contenders or the loathed rebuilders.

The Gipper

Homotron said:

Ignorant comments? I've watched plenty of the Cleveland Browns over the years and I wasn't implying the above players were/are garbage. What I WAS doing was weighing in their chances against others in the AFC at their positions. Assuming Ed Reed is healthy as well as Troy that's two safeties in the AFC grabbing spots. Rubin also has some steep competition and his position just in the AFC north not to mention the entire AFC. I don't feel that either player is bad but neither is good enough right now to warrant a pro-bowl selection considering the competition.

Ed Reed is basically on his way to retirement. Polamalu is starting a slide downhill with age and injuries. He might have another Pro Bowl year under his belt, but that slide is starting. If there is a new sheriff in town at FS in the AFCN it is Ward. That doesn't mean he will be a lock for Pro Bowl, as there are 3 other divisions in the AFC.

Nw220

Yeah i feel the same as far as Reed and Polamalu are concernied, Reed is on his way to retirement and Polamalu was a weak link for the Steelers Defense in the SB...

Ward is an up and coming play maker who if he can work a lil bit on his cover skills i feel will be a Pro Bowler..

And Haden could have been a Pro Bowler last year if he started more games i think he will be next year...

The thing is the Browns have to start winning more games to get some of there guys names out there more when pro bowl balloting starts,because alot of people when they vote just look at the Names and say o yeah Ed Reed he deserves to be in the Pro Bowl when in Reality hes been hurt 8 games of the Season

nickers

@nw220 said:

Yeah i feel the same as far as Reed and Polamalu are concernied, Reed is on his way to retirement and Polamalu was a weak link for the Steelers Defense in the SB...

Ward is an up and coming play maker who if he can work a lil bit on his cover skills i feel will be a Pro Bowler..

And Haden could have been a Pro Bowler last year if he started more games i think he will be next year...

The thing is the Browns have to start winning more games to get some of there guys names out there more when pro bowl balloting starts,because alot of people when they vote just look at the Names and say o yeah Ed Reed he deserves to be in the Pro Bowl when in Reality hes been hurt 8 games of the Season

Hearin lies proof again Homotard just says things just to say them to ire other posters...his game is old and tired and people just dont buy his ilk. How does someone who is a stooler fan say "Oh Ive watched the browns alot over the years"..Are you a closet Browns fan LOL?... I mean Ward hasnt been here for years (DUH)...It was his rookie season last year and a damn fine one for an up and commer. Hes shown a knack for getting to the ball. I think he will improve his coverage skills. He's a pretty smart kid. I think what him and Haden did last season was very promising. I dont get these Retards that just throw out blanket statements without any basis of facts or stats to support them. I dont claim to know it all, But I dont sit there saying guys like Ben or Polamalu suck and are not going to the pro bowl. For some someone how sits there and plays with his tabs all day then thinks hes some kind of genius "Ohhhh wowww whoppee I can use tabs" he brags about it like a 10 year old. For someone who talks alot it amounts to 0 and its a whole lot of caca.

MDHQ

I would say another year away at the earliest. Hillis is a beast, but Colt is going to need another full season to make some young mistakes before he is ready to be "The Man"

choco

so...just how is it possible to have evidence that the browns will be better until the season is over?

i stopped reading after this completely xxxxing genius statement from a complete xxxxing genius. you go ghoolie...someone somewhere likes your idiocy.

The Gipper

@king-ghoolie-lives said:

Enthusiasm of being Browns fans aside, there is no hard evidence to suggest that the Browns 2011 season is going to be any more successful than the 2010.

Completely true, but there is no hard evidence to suggest that they won't be more successful.

In addition there is absolutely no hard evidence that the Browns are "finally" building the foundation with which future winners will be born from.

Possibly true...IF you believe that Haden, Ward, McCoy etc. from last year's draft are going to all be busts. I say that there is evidence that they are building a winning foundation, but it is only evidence. It is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You apparently want to jump right to the verdict stage...and I say the Browns are just past their opening statement.

You "building the foundation" guys have to be honest with yourselves. It wasn't that long ago when you were trashing ANY of us who dared suggested that Phil Sewage was a complete phony. I am not going to do it, but you go back and look at the posts you guys were putting up back then.

It was the SAME EXACT gobblydygook you are espousing now. Essentially you suggest that we have acquired a lot of young, high potential, high-quality draft picks, and that these guys are really going to be the juice.

So, what you are saying Ghoolie is that we all have to be like you? We all have to be "glass half empty" sorts? Always expect negative results? I understand how a Browns fan can be that way, given the history of the last 20 years. But I prefer to not exercise corporal mortification forever and ever where the Browns are concerned. At some point our penance has to have been served.

Forgive me, but you guys post this same shit over, and over and over. Look, All OTHER 31 teams has the SAME EXACT UPSIDE that we do. They too, have drafted young talent that they too, hope will build their future.

Given the speculative nature of the draft, it is COPLETELY FOOLISH to think that our draft additions alone are going ot catapult us past the Ravens, Steelers and Bengals, let alone the other NFL teams.

I am not sure that anyone is saying that the Browns draft picks alone are going to catapult us past those other teams. But you have to at some point acquire the materials to build that catapult. Maybe the Browns will build a trebuchet instead. Look at how the Ravens and Steelers built themselves. Primarily through the draft I would surmise. There is nothing wrong in expecting that the Browns should make similar quality draft selections as those teams have over the years. (It hasn't happened, but, nevertheless it should be expected)

Here is the problem I have. The Browns organization doesn't have a football culture. The Steelers do, but the Browns don't. As an example, Cowher left, but the Steelers remained basically the same, exact kind of team. However they do it they draft bastards who deliver on game day.

The Browns do not have that track record and they don't as of right now, have a defined culture that we can point out as the fuel that feeds the fire. We don't have a track record of drafting amazing players, so, all you "foundations" guys really have to promote here is your love for the Browns and your optimism that,

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't bringing in Holmgren and Heckert...proven football men, meant to infuse this franchise with that "football culture", whatever that means? I mean, those guys DO have a track record of some success, though it is not with the Browns. Holmgren has a track record as a coach and GM that took two teams to SBs. Heckert has a track record that took a team to a SB and to several NFC title games with the players he drafted. Yes, I think they have to reprove themselves here, but that football culture certainly seems plausible with them here.

"If this guys pans out, if this guy is what we think he is, if, if , if................."

Whether you love the Browns or not, you have to use common sense. We don't match up very well man-to man with the better teams in the NFL. We don't have a lot of positions where we can state with any certainty that we are solid and can match the opposition's guy very well.

I think we are improving somewhat in that area. I honestly believe that the Browns OL is the best in the AFCN. And I don't think Hillis takes a back seat to any RB in the Division.

I like Hillis, but surely you guys know football well enough to know that the odds favor him having a very different, less successful season. Just as opposing defenses shut down Reuben Droughns his second year with us, so too will the weaponless Browns offense allow opposing defenses to jam the middle and shut him down.

So? You too are joining the naysayers that think Hillis can't repeat his performance from last year? What? Because he is white? Because he is big and strong and not diminutive a elusive? Hillis has proven that he is nimble enough. And plenty of big strong RBs have proven they can last a while and maintain their productivity. Jim Brown, Earl Campbell, Jerome Bettis, Mike Alstott (if you need a white guy).

Plus, hopefully, the Browns will have Montario Hardesty to come in and spell Hillis some.

The Browns remain limp, very limp at the positions who routinely touch the ball.

I think that is only true at WR. Not at TE, RB and QB. No one would ever call Hillis limp. I don't think McCoy is limp...in the sense that he is weak willed. He is not 6'6". He is inexperienced. He may have injury issues, but that is not limp. Our TEs were very productive. (yes, they needed to be given the lack of production by the WRs.)

With so many ifs and no real veteran guaranteed bastard-tough players, the Browns are likely going to struggle.

I think Colt will face a lot more pressure, I think Hillis will be shut down and our O will make a lot of stupid mistakes and be back to 2 yard dinks on 3d and 9. I think our defense will be on the field too much

I think the Browns win 4 maybe 5 games in 2011, but that's it.

NOw, if we ad a mid career DE, WR, RB and DB? Maybe a different story. This draft won't amount to a hill of beans as far as improving the team.

I think with a RB, Hillis now going into his 4th year, you would have to call him "mid career". Some of our DBs are "mid-career" Brown, Elam, Wright. I would rather have a young, good DB, like Ward and Haden, than a "mid-career below average DB like those 3.

The Gipper

@king-ghoolie-lives said:

In order of The Gipper's reply to HIS most astute analysis.

<Completely true, but there is no hard evidence to suggest that they won't be more successful.>

I may have used the wrong word, let's drop the evidence and replace it with the concept of probability. Given that this draft represents a pretty much standard, cookie cutter draft of the Browns, it IS logical to expect the same results. Meaning, instead of going after the high profile playmakers, we focus on diaminds in teh rough and linemen. Insanity is described as some as engaging in the same activities and expecting different results.

For a betting man, this odds are that this draft will not significantly impact the Nrowns W-L record, ever.

Well, as I see it, when the Browns have gone after the high profile playmakers, that has been a mixed bag if not a complete bust for them as well. Can you say Braylon Edwards, Brady Quinn, Kellen Winslow II? What would the Browns look like today if BQ and those other two were here doing what we thought they were supposed to do when we drafted them? We'd be where you (and I) would want them to be....rolling over AFCN defenses. But, obviously, they are not. Where the Browns have had success has been in the area of the linemen, like JT and Mack. So, we take DL and OL.

<Possibly true...IF you believe that Haden, Ward, McCoy etc. from last year's draft are going to all be busts. I say that there is evidence that they are building a winning foundation, but it is only evidence. It is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You apparently want to jump right to the verdict stage...and I say the Browns are just past their opening statement>

The Browns were 5 - 11 in 2009, they were 5 - 11 in 2010. All the positive spin you want me to accept resulted in a 2010 team that demonstrated no improvement over the previous season. Please forgive me if common sense and logic prevent me from peeing my pants with enthusiasm. Those players you mentioned? They delivered nothing that amounted to anything.

Though the record wasn't improved from one season from the other, I believe the performance was. I mean, in 2009 the Browns point differential was a negative 130 points. In 2010 it was a negative 61 points. That is a straw to grasp onto. It is a measure of improvement, I guess. And, hopefully, it bodes well for the future. These guys will have a year of experience under their belts.

<So, what you are saying Ghoolie is that we all have to be like you? We all have to be "glass half empty" sorts? Always expect negative results? I understand how a Browns fan can be that way, given the history of the last 20 years. But I prefer to not exercise corporal mortification forever and ever where the Browns are concerned. At some point our penance has to have been served.>

See, this is where I part company with the typical, and honestly, in my heart,what I see as very gullible fans.

I am not a negative fan. I am an honest, open minded fan. I am a fan not polluted with the nationalism-like pride of waving my flag. If I was to look at a tornado ravaged home and witness two kids trying to rebuild it with balsa wood and plastic tools, it would not be negative of me to comment that " regardless of their spirit and intentions, these individuals will not be successful. Nor would it be "positive for me to say...... oh wow, lookie those kids go, they're gonna make it better than ever.

Here is the issue. Championships are not won by Colt McCoy's and wasted Gerrard Warren-like draft picks. Big Ben to a Big WR on the last play of the SB. Aaron Rogers releasing pinpoint passes before any pass rush could get to him. We don't have that caliber of player, and our guys are not going to magically all of a sudden become that caliber of player.......... we don't even have that on the Horizon. This big WR? Yeah, he impresses me, but it ain't enough.

Well, first, we don't know about McCoy. For all we know he could become like another short, blond 3rd round draft choice QB whose name is the same as a state in the Northwest.

<Look at how the Ravens and Steelers built themselves.> Primarily through the draft I would surmise.>

You gave me two examples? Here's back at ya. Big Ben, Ray Lewis. First year, out of the gun.. BOOM.

We haven't gone after that caliber of player, instead we trade down OR waste picks on run of the mill, dime-a dozen linemen. If the Browns are ever going to be more than a 5-11 team, they have to, at some point, start acquiring 12 - 4 caliber talent.

Well, do you really fricking think that when the Browns have drafted in the past that they have said to themselves "we are going to take this 5-11 talent over some other 12-4 talent". Of course not. Obviously they think they are taking 12-4 talent when they draft Gerard Warren. As for Big Ben, to me, he is primarily a beneficiary of the Dick LeBeau defense the Steelers have. An orangutan could have QBed the Steelers his rookie year and won like they did. If he were put in the Browns situation he would have been Derek Anderson.

<Well, correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't bringing in Holmgren and Heckert...proven football men, meant to infuse this franchise with that "football culture", whatever that means? >

How many times will you and other Browns fans bite at teh same bait? How many times will you bow down to Kings who no longer have the fire in their bellies? Policy, Clarke. Palmer, Dilfer, Roye,Sewage and now? A middle age executive who has already been there, done that. A man who is wealthy, fat and enjoying his position and ability to travel freely and schmooze with all his football buddies and media acquaintences.

You REALLY think that Holmgren is in any way, shape or manner focused and hungry to restore the Browns to greatness? Really? you believe that?

I believe the Browns media and fans are easily impressed with resumes of days gone by. It is why the media and local pundits favored Modell's choice of Super Bowl credentialed Bud Carson over little known iron jaw, Bill Cowher.

Actually, the choice was between Bill Belichick and Bill Cowher. In retrospect, had things not gone sour with Modell, the choice of Belichick would have turned out quite prudent.

Beyond that...WTF are YOU suggesting they do? It seems to me that you are doing an awful lot of Monday morning quarterbacking on these things.

THAT you see, is the difference between Steeler football culture and Browns football culture. Rooney has basic principles in both his personal and football life. It was those core values that lead him to hire an unknown and unproven. It was Cowher's personal qualities, NOT his resume that enabled him to become a future HOF head coach.

Now, I can hear the Harpies chirping now....... " well, who do YOU suggest Ghoolie, nyah, nyah, nyah, you don't even know". Of course I don't know, I don't own a team and I didn't interview candidates. BUT...... IF I DID..... I would hire someone with the core vales of life, AND football, that I believe in.

And I say that I think the Browns believe they have done just what you suggest.

But who is to say how it turns out. Bill Belichick was a big loser here in Cleveland....in multiple ways. He couldn't win on the field (4 out of 5 years with a losing record), and he couldn't lose off the field. He alienated the fans and media of this town, and maybe even alienated his own owner. But when he went to NE, he sure found what it is you are looking for, apparently.

*I believe football is a young man's game. Holmgren is an Oatmeal Box advertizement waiting to happen. If, in his own words, "the game passed me by" relative to being a coach? Then it passed him by in the front office as well.

OK, who knows. You think you do, but I am not so sure. But the guy picking the talent, Tom Heckert is only what? 42 years old? That would put him in the prime of his career.

* I believe that unless an owner is sickened by the thought of losing, he will never build a winner. Modell won because he had passion and love for the Browns. Lerner has none of that, and his record is shameful. What he and his Father have done to Cleveland football is shamefull. He has fans, rooting for mediocrity.

Fair criticism of Lerner....but, there are all kinds of models of success for an owner. I for one, prefer that he be a non-meddling owner. Guys like Modell, who are passionate and who think they know what they are doing but don't, can be worse than a guy that is less dispassionate but at least has the sense to get the hell out of the way and just write the checks.

* I believe, as does Rooney, as did Lombardi, that the team is built around a QB. Colt McCoy's don't beat Roethlisbergers. Not now, not ever.

Again, I am not prepared to overrate BR the way you are, nor to simply write off McCoy at this point. Every Browns QB since BK has had to be written off. Lets not do it to McCoy prematurely just because his 10 predecessors haven't been up to par.

If you believe the FO is something to be excited about, then we just won't see eye to eye. But hey, I hope I am wrong.

<I think we are improving somewhat in that area. I honestly believe that the Browns OL is the best in the AFCN.>

And in saying that, you make my point for me. An OL, while important, can be built with just about any of the many lard asses who play these fat-ass positions. Admittedly, our OL is good, and YET.......... our offense is shit.

Why do you think that is?

Clearly because we have not had the right system in place to match the talent, or because our skill positions have not been up to par. Delhomme was a complete disappointment. Wallace wasn't much better if at all, and McCoy was a rookie that played in all of 5 games...and we had no WR corps to speak of.

<And I don't think Hillis takes a back seat to any RB in the Division.>

Oh, sure he does, sure he does. Chris Johnson, Adrian Petersen, Ray Rice, Cedric Benson, Rashard Mendenhall, Steve Jackson, the list goes on. There are 10 - 15 backs I would take ahead of him.

I said in the "Division". I wasn't talking league wide. You mentioned Rice and Mendenhall and Benson who are in the division. Hillis was every bit or more productive than any of them in terms of yards gained, TDs made etc. Those guys may have had more offense around them than Hillis, but he produced better than any of them.

<<So? You too are joining the naysayers that think Hillis can't repeat his performance from last year? What? Because he is white? Because he is big and strong and not diminutive a elusive?>>

No, because he is a human being. Look, football games turn on how predictable a team is. In 2010, nobody knew Hillis, Since most teams only played us once, HIllis wasn't accounted for. 2011?

Fair enough, but just because a team knows what is coming doesn't mean they can stop him. Everyone knew the Packers were going to give the ball to Jim Taylor on the sweep. That didn't mean they could stop him. Same here if the OL and Hillis do their job.

Don't you remember thsi same BS over tired, worn out Reuben Droughs? I LOVED THE GUY....... but i know after having a great year, defenses would adjust, and with no other offensive weapons, his goose was cooked, And it was, Hillis will have a hard, difficult year.

I see a lot more in Hillis than I saw in Droughns. And Droughns didn't have the quality OL in front of him that Hillis has.

<<Hillis has proven that he is nimble enough.>>

To do what? Beat the Steelers? Get us into the playoffs? Turn us into a ball control offense? I mean, you yourself said we have the best OL in our division. WHy couldn't hIllis help us control the ball? Hmmmmm?

Great OL.... GREAT RB............. I thought that's what it took?

Whatever success the Browns had offensively was because Hillis and the OL did help the Browns control the ball. The Browns just had nothing much else going for them except some decent numbers by Ben Watson.

<<And plenty of big strong RBs have proven they can last a while and maintain their productivity. Jim Brown,>>

Don't EVER, and I mean EVER compare a plough horse to a race horse. Jim Brown could cut, sweep and turn it up field. He took it yard over and over and over. Hillis couldn't clean the dandruff out of Jim Brown's koufi hat.

OK, sure. The only comparison I was trying to make was that a big strong RB, and JB certainly was that, among other things, isn't necessarily going to knocked out of the game with injuries. JB never missed a game in his career despite the punishment he took as a runner. It isn't automatic that Hillis will begin missing games because of injuries eithers....as other have suggested is inevitable.

<Earl Campbell, Jerome Bettis,>>

Both superior to Hillis. BOTH also complimented by teams with a REAL QB, effective tandem RBs and WRs who could make opposing defenses guess. Hillis is a tough kid, but agian, without weapons he is going to be keyed on and pounded. Just watch and learn from NostraThomas.

Perhaps they were superior, but you did state the key: the surrounding cast is also all important to the success of a RB, and an offense.

<Mike Alstott (if you need a white guy).>

WTF is it with you and this white guy bullshit? Hillis IS Reuben Droughs. The same shit that happened to Droughns in year two is likely going to happen to Hillis in 2011. Now, if magically our O starts passing downfield and HIllis gets some help from the other RBs and the WR we drafted? Maybe he has a chance. I don't see it, I could be wrong. It isn't often that I am wrong, but it happens now and again.

I don't think anything is inevitable, like I said. You seem to believe that it is inevitable that Hillis will turn out like Droughns. It isn't any more inevitable that he will turn out like Droughns than it is that he will turn out like Earl Campbell And we all agree Hillis needs helps offensively.

<<Plus, hopefully, the Browns will have Montario Hardesty to come in and spell Hillis some.>>

This is where you don't understand football. Hillis is a utility back. He doens't have the skills needed to be the mainstay. He will get used up. Over the years, from Jim Brown and before, part of Browns culture was a shifty, fast, powerful RB......... Brown, Kelly, Mitchell, Calvin Hill, Bo Scott, Greg Pruit, Byner and Mack, even short lived Bo Cornell.

Hillis is okay, he's another Czonka.

OK, well Csonka made the Pro Football HOF. I will take it every day of the week if Hillis makes the PFHOF. And I disagree that he doesn't have the skills to be a mainstay. He WAS THE mainstay of the Browns last year. Almost 1200 yards rushing, almost 500 yards receiving on 61 catches. To me, Hillis was a combination of Byner and Mack. Sure, he is not shifty like Greg Pruitt or Eric Metcalf, but he more shifty/nimble than either Mike Pruitt or Kevin Mack, and he is almost as strong an powerful as those two are..