Fixing The O-Line Will Not Solve Much
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c-dawg said:
Web, you have some valid points and good numbers, just a bad adverb. Arguments like this "force of history" type that you adhere to are great for general guidelines, it just gets a little messier when the specifics of the situations come into play.
"Overwhelmingly" is a reach, because it refers to something higher than 50% by definition (unless you are talking presidential elections). Coins don't land on heads an overwhelming amount of times, for example. Seriously though, 50% is pretty damn good, rest on that simple point and open up to the fact that the other 47% or so had some good success too and I'll say strong post.
Until then: Roger Staubach was a 10th rounder. JP Losman? Another stellar first rounder that didn't sniff the SB. Kurt Warner? Undrafted. Fran Tarkenton - 3rd Rounder. Joe Theisman, fourth rounder, but SIGNED in Canada (neat twist). I'll close with Ryan Leaf - 1st round GOLD!
PS: thrash you in Math and Poker. $ in the bank
C-dawg I was referring to the first round compared to any given round, and not all other rounds and free agents combined. You likely just misunderstood my point. For example, I was saying that there's a greater than 50% chance that a first round QB won any given Super Bowl, while there is probably a 5% chance that any given Super Bowl was won by a 4th rounder. I don't want to get into a probability class and start pulling out the n! equations. They can make your head hurt.
C-dawg I was referring to the first round compared to any given round, and not all other rounds and free agents combined. You likely just misunderstood my point. For example, I was saying that there's a greater than 50% chance that a first round QB won any given Super Bowl, while there is probably a 5% chance that any given Super Bowl was won by a 4th rounder. I don't want to get into a probability class and start pulling out the n! equations. They can make your head hurt.
I get the adjustment, appreciate the clarification.
Yes, the probabilities/likelihoods shift significantly with that array. 1st round dominates.
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It is just as likely that any team that drafts a QB in the first round is more likely to stick with their decision and build around him than replace him with another QB. More than likely a first rounder will get more time and consideration than a QB drafted later in the draft... JMHO.
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I wouldn't want to gamble with a lot of the geniuses posting on the board who would rather take the low odds of a late round QB winning a Super Bowl than the overwhelmingly higher odds of a 1st-round QB winning the Super Bowl. Over 50% of Super Bowl winners have come from 1 round. Remember that there are 7 rounds in today's NFL and there used to be more in the past. Also you have to add in undrafted free agents. That means that after you leave the first round, the odds of finding a winning QB in any given round decrease dramatically. Of course this concept will go over the head of most people in this forum who failed math class.
I wouldn't want to gamble with a lot of the geniuses posting on the board. Of course this concept will go over the head of most people in this forum who failed math class.
andrew luck or RG3?
so if andrew luck is 'the guy' and you can't get him and there's a scramble for our #4 you wuldn't trade down 2 slots and gain another 2nd rounder?
hey slaughter was my guy back in the day too but i wonder what he would think about this draft? maybe u got him on speed dial?
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How good are these 3: Brock Osweiler, Brandon Weeden, Kirk Cousins ?
Can we take Blackmon and one of these 3 QB's?
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No Ordinary Joe
When a team picks a tackle in the first round they’re thinking that guy is going to keep his quarterback clean. We’ve mentioned countless times the impact pressure can have on a passer, so just imagine how much worse Colt McCoy could be if he didn’t have the most efficient tackle in the league blocking for him. I am, of course, referring to Joe Thomas, who in allowing just three sacks, a hit and 15 hurries on 527 pass blocking snaps, is flying high with a 97.2 PBE rating. He narrowly beats out Andrew Whitworth of the Bengals and David Stewart of the Titans (97.1 ratings), though it should be noted he has given up eight penalties.
Interestingly, Thomas isn’t the only Brown to do well in the tackle rankings. Tony Pashos has struggled to impose himself in the run game, but with just 17 total pressures given up on 398 pass blocking snaps, he ranks fourth out of all right tackles. With the rest of the Top 10, you kind of understand them being there, and it’s only really Pashos whose name sticks out. He finds him behind the aforementioned Stewart, Tyson Clabo and rookie sensation, Tyron Smith.
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http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/tony-pashos/140759?q=tony-pashos
According to this, he had a ton of sacks. 37? That can't be right.... can it? @@
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http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/player/joe-thomas/469511?q=joe-thomas
Joe Thomas - 37 sacks.
While the Offensive Line needs fixing, fixing it is not going to catapult us into a .5 team without playmakers.
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I continue to hear many misguided Browns fans say that we need to prioritize taking a chance on a unproven right tackle over taking a chance on an unproven quarterback. However, statistics show that the Browns offensive line should not take the majority of the blame for the sorry offensive output. The top passing teams were all over the spectrum in terms of sacks allowed. 3 of the top 10 passing teams (Packers, Cowboys and Steelers) allowed just as many or more sacks(41,39 and 42 sacks respectively) than the Browns(39) despite fewer passing attempts .
Yes its true that the top passing team the Saints allowed only 24 sacks. However, so did the middle of the road Titans. The difference is that the Saints totaled nearly 100 more passing YPG than the Titans. This is because the Saints have a much better QB than the Titans. Similarly, the Packers, Cowboys and Steelers have much better QB's than the Browns.
To me its very clear that the difference between success and failure in the passing game is not necessarily the offensive line, but the playmakers. And the biggest playmaker, the only one who touches the ball every play, is the quarterback. Therefore, it would be much wiser to take a chance on a QB than to take a chance on a RT. And by the way, Colt McCoy is not a good player and probably never will be.
I continue to hear many misguided Browns fans say that we need to prioritize taking a chance on a unproven right tackle over taking a chance on an unproven quarterback. However, statistics show that the Browns offensive line should not take the majority of the blame for the sorry offensive output. The top passing teams were all over the spectrum in terms of sacks allowed. 3 of the top 10 passing teams (Packers, Cowboys and Steelers) allowed just as many or more sacks(41,39 and 42 sacks respectively) than the Browns(39) despite fewer passing attempts .
Yes its true that the top passing team the Saints allowed only 24 sacks. However, so did the middle of the road Titans. The difference is that the Saints totaled nearly 100 more passing YPG than the Titans. This is because the Saints have a much better QB than the Titans. Similarly, the Packers, Cowboys and Steelers have much better QB's than the Browns.
To me its very clear that the difference between success and failure in the passing game is not necessarily the offensive line, but the playmakers. And the biggest playmaker, the only one who touches the ball every play, is the quarterback. Therefore, it would be much wiser to take a chance on a QB than to take a chance on a RT. And by the way, Colt McCoy is not a good player and probably never will be.
Colt was responsible for the fact that he wasn't sacked 5 times per game. He made a lot of plays to avoid sacks. A quarterback doesn't need to be sacked to kept from passing for high yardages. There were a lot of plays where he had to throw the ball away or force a throw outside the pocket.
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It says Pashos gave up 37 sacks last year and only 39 in his career. That's a pretty terrible drop off in performance lmao.
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Those numbers are bogus. Pashos did have 6 penalites... 9 sacks in 2012. If that number is even right.
Pashos has been injured here and there, and he's getting older.
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I continue to hear many misguided Browns fans say that we need to prioritize taking a chance on a unproven right tackle over taking a chance on an unproven quarterback. However, statistics show that the Browns offensive line should not take the majority of the blame for the sorry offensive output. The top passing teams were all over the spectrum in terms of sacks allowed. 3 of the top 10 passing teams (Packers, Cowboys and Steelers) allowed just as many or more sacks(41,39 and 42 sacks respectively) than the Browns(39) despite fewer passing attempts .
Yes its true that the top passing team the Saints allowed only 24 sacks. However, so did the middle of the road Titans. The difference is that the Saints totaled nearly 100 more passing YPG than the Titans. This is because the Saints have a much better QB than the Titans. Similarly, the Packers, Cowboys and Steelers have much better QB's than the Browns.
To me its very clear that the difference between success and failure in the passing game is not necessarily the offensive line, but the playmakers. And the biggest playmaker, the only one who touches the ball every play, is the quarterback. Therefore, it would be much wiser to take a chance on a QB than to take a chance on a RT. And by the way, Colt McCoy is not a good player and probably never will be.
Colt was responsible for the fact that he wasn't sacked 5 times per game. He made a lot of plays to avoid sacks. A quarterback doesn't need to be sacked to kept from passing for high yardages. There were a lot of plays where he had to throw the ball away or force a throw outside the pocket.
Colt was responsible for the fact that he wasn't sacked 5 times per game. He made a lot of plays to avoid sacks. A quarterback doesn't need to be sacked to kept from passing for high yardages. There were a lot of plays where he had to throw the ball away or force a throw outside the pocket.
Well why didnt throw to the open receivers or WR's ? Could it be because his throws were not accurate enough ? Or Could it be because the receivers were not open enough ? That sounds like a lack of playmakers problem. And fixing the O-line is not going to solve that problem.
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It says Pashos gave up 37 sacks last year and only 39 in his career. That's a pretty terrible drop off in performance lmao.
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Those numbers are bogus. Pashos did have 6 penalites... 9 sacks in 2012. If that number is even right.
Pashos has been injured here and there, and he's getting older.
There is no denying the fact that Pashos is getting older and we need to find a replacement. But even if me draft Kalil and make him the RT. I dont think that will translate into Touchdowns. That is the point im making.
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That is true.... cept it would help the running game to the right.
The Browns need a blazing tall catch everything veteran from FA. AND a wr from the draft.
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That is true.... cept it would help the running game to the right.
The Browns need a blazing tall catch everything veteran from FA. AND a wr from the draft.
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How good are these 3: Brock Osweiler, Brandon Weeden, Kirk Cousins ?
Can we take Blackmon and one of these 3 QB's?
How good are these 3: Brock Osweiler, Brandon Weeden, Kirk Cousins ?
Can we take Blackmon and one of these 3 QB's?
Osweiler is a project with a capital P, converted basketball player. FWIW, no qb over 6'6" has ever made it in the NFL- Os is almost 6'8".
Weeden first attempted a career in pro baseball, and didn't make the grade. Um, he's going to be 30 in 2013- still interested?
Cousins is rated as mid round prospect- we already have one of those on our roster in McCoy.
BTW, they are all leadfoots compared to Griffin. None of them have anywhere near the arm.
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How good are these 3: Brock Osweiler, Brandon Weeden, Kirk Cousins ?
Can we take Blackmon and one of these 3 QB's?
Osweiler is a project with a capital P, converted basketball player. FWIW, no qb over 6'6" has ever made it in the NFL- Os is almost 6'8".
Weeden first attempted a career in pro baseball, and didn't make the grade. Um, he's going to be 30 in 2013- still interested?
Cousins is rated as mid round prospect- we already have one of those on our roster in McCoy.
BTW, they are all leadfoots compared to Griffin. None of them have anywhere near the arm.
Weeden first attempted a career in pro baseball, and didn't make the grade. Um, he's going to be 30 in 2013- still interested?
BTW, they are all leadfoots compared to Griffin. None of them have anywhere near the arm.
Weeden is who interests me. I had a friend who watches more college football and said Weeden is a good QB. Im not too worried about his age. Seems like Weeden has 5/6 more years to give which will make it half a decade if he is worth it. And he wont cost us a huge draft pick.
Again I dont know how GOOD he is, So I wanted to know the consensus - Is it just the age that is putting us away or is he not a good QB.
Griffin sounds good. But I dont want to give away multiple draft picks for him. We dont know much about him and that might be a steep price to pay if he flops. It could set us 3 years behind in our progress.
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Mike Adams 19 reps at the combine.
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@king-ghoolie-lives said:
WTF are you babbling about? We don't know much about him? Are you a fkucking idiot? Who DO we know a lot about? Have they been keeping RG3 s videos in a locked vault and preventing scounts from watching him?
Of all the fkucking idiotic things you could post, THAT tops them all.
Set us THREE YEARS BEHIND IN OUR PROGRESS?
Again, WTF are you babbling about. The Browns went backwards from 2010 to 2011. 6 wins versus 4 wins against teh easiest NFL schedule. Does that sound like progress to you?
There is no progress in Cleveland, there is not system, no style, no momentum. There is nothing from 2011 that can be built upon. The Browns were one of the worst teams in the NFL last year. If we got rid of the ENTIRE bunch of shit, it would be PROGRESS.
Jeez your post was moronic.
Do u feel the need to post expletives in order to sound like u are making a valid point? You sound like the perfect textbook guy who believes what they read and hangs on to them like it is the fact. We do have films on RG3 just like we had films on many first round QB's. Not all of them succeeded in the NFL. But that was fine because the teams that drafted them used only ONE pick to draft them - Their own. So if the QB does not click you have essentially wasted ONE draft pick. (Unfortunately it being a top draft pick means your wasted your chance of being another solid need).
For the Browns to move up to pick RG3 we need to give TWO first round draft picks to move up. So if we are wrong and he is not as good as advertised, then we have wasted TWO years of First round draft picks. And last year we already traded down and missed an opportunity to add a top quality first round draft pick. So if we trade away our our other First round draft pick a if RG3 also flops, then that is three wasted first round draft picks. That would mean 3 years of first round draft picks wasted which means roughly 3 years?
As far as having no style, system goes - It does not fall on the players to implement that but the coach. And if u think drafting RG3 is going to transform Pat Shurmur into Norv Turner (lowly comparison but at this point I would take him than Shurmur) then you are the one clearly delusional.
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I just got through watching the NFL Combine featuring the OL. What I've come away with is- my goodness, Matt Kalil looks really good. The young man ran a 4.99 40. His body type is not your typical Offensive Lineman, he looks trim and ripped in the arms. Man with him on the Oline(anywhere on the Oline) we would be so much better and remember that though Joe Thomas is still young he's in his fifth year already going to be a sixth year pro next season. Picking a guy like Kalil would solidify our line NOW and provide continuity long after Steinbach and Thomas are retired. I say pull the trigger if given the chance- the kid is going to be that good. I'd take him in a second.
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