Mike Wallace?
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Homotron said:
Come on now. If anything the Steelers are reloading at veteran laden positions. Troy also isn't any slower and to imply that he is, is hysterical. He battle some lingering injuries but still made his usual insane plays over the course of the year. He still closes more ground than any safety in the NFL and gambling is part of his game. It's why Ryan Clark is so important. It should also be noted that Clark didn't play in that playoff game and it was a huge subtraction. However with the injuries on the line, in the secondary and with Mendenhall it wasn't in the cards for the Steelers this year. Last i checked the "declining" Steelers finished 12-4. You're a bit delusional. I just hope we get a crack at Cordy Glenn or Decastro. Better running lanes and more time for Ben equals bad news for the AFC North and the AFC in general.
The tide may have turned starting in 2009. And as far as that list- you can throw out guys that are no longer on either team- Faine, Edwards, Burress, Holmes.
I'll grant the Steelers a big edge at LB, the qb gap goes away (rose colored glasses when we draft RGIII) Whines Hard is gettin' long in the tooth- so is Hampton. (I give you the edge @ wr because of Wallace) MHO is the D-lines are currently a push. Joe Thomas is better than anyone you have on your o-line, and Mack is darn close to Pouncey in talent level. Haden would be one of your starting corners. Ward isn't as good as Poly-moo-moo, but he isn't a slouch.
So assuming RGIII is the pick, and pans out- the Browns are a WR, LB, and RT away from the Steelers. I'd start worrying.
The tide may have turned starting in 2009. And as far as that list- you can throw out guys that are no longer on either team- Faine, Edwards, Burress, Holmes.
I'll grant the Steelers a big edge at LB, the qb gap goes away (rose colored glasses when we draft RGIII) Whines Hard is gettin' long in the tooth- so is Hampton. (I give you the edge @ wr because of Wallace) MHO is the D-lines are currently a push. Joe Thomas is better than anyone you have on your o-line, and Mack is darn close to Pouncey in talent level. Haden would be one of your starting corners. Ward isn't as good as Poly-moo-moo, but he isn't a slouch.
So assuming RGIII is the pick, and pans out- the Browns are a WR, LB, and RT away from the Steelers. I'd start worrying.
That's a pretty big leap of faith, first not only assuming that the Browns will acquire RGIII (which will require a trade because you won't get him at #4) but to also assume that he'll close the gap on the QB position. Ben Roethlisberger may not be a popular person with the Browns fans, a brief look at the NFL records he already has, combined with the Super Bowls, and he is well on his way to Canton. RGIII may be a hot QB commodity now, but so was JaMarcus Russell, Matt Leinhart, Sam Bradford and Mark Sanchez as their drafts approached.
There have been 19 QBs taken in the 1st round since Roethlisberger went #11 in 2004. Thus far, only Aaron Rogers and Roethlisberger have reached the elite status and maintained it all the way through winning a Super Bowl.
As far as your comparisongs -- maybe its just me, but do you think that other teams would consider giving up a 1st round pick for Massaquoi or Robiskie if they were a RFA like Wallace? Antonio Brown won the Steelers team MVP and has reputation for the hardest work ethic on the team. Emmanuel Sanders had an injury filled 2011, but has shown tremendous promise. That isn't even mentioning Heath Miller. The best the Browns have to offer is Greg Little -- so the WR comparison is not even close.
I actually will admit, I see promising play from the Browns DL. I honestly wouldn't mind having Phil Taylor taking over at NT. Although Hampton's career is coming to an end, if you understood the roles of DE in the LeBeau scheme, they are not primed to get big stats and thus cannot be judged by individual production, but more how they control the line for the LBs to make plays. And if you want to play the hypothetical game of rookies, imagine the Steelers taking Poe at NT, their line could be a force again - stacked with young talent.
Would Haden start at CB for Pittsburgh? Of course he would. However, they have a couple of young CBs in Cortez Allen and Curtis Brown entering their 2nd year who showed the same promise Sanders and Brown did as rookies in 2010.
Joe Thomas is the best LT in the game and Mack is extremely good. But the best LT in the history of the game will do less to help a team win a championship than the 5th best QB in the league any day of the week. And who is to say that Marcus Gilbert doesn't emerge as a quality LT after starting as a rookie.
Browns fans have loved to stick the fork in Pittsburgh --- and have done so so many times, it's the same as, wait till next year. The Steelers have proven time and time again to be the best drafting team in the league, replacing lost talent like Burress and Holmes with Wallace and Brown, Porter and Haggans with Harrison, the list goes on and on.
After 2012, you will all be pointing out about another Steelers player leaving and the impending doom. And you'll be wrong again.
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only in pittsburgh is big gay an elite QB. he was carried to a superbowl victory his second year....make no mistake about that.
every other elite QB does something ben hasn't been able to do, AND be successful at.....standing in the pocket, like a QB, and deliver the ball. considering the amount of plays he makes out of the pocket, and his stats still dont compare to any other elite QB in the league. he just finally broke 4k yards.
he's more of an enigma....his game works (for now), but in the end, he's gonna have to retire early while falling short of any meaningful statistical passing categories......unless haley gets him under control. perhaps haley can turn him into a pocket passer...i dunno. but rogers, brady, brees and both mannings are the top 5, with ben only in the conversation because he has 2 rings. every other metric for an elite QB, he's not really that close. he has an uncanny escape ability that causes a D to breakdown.....other than that, he's not special or unique.
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The ones in red I have no arguement against. But the ones in blue prove we are closing the talent gap.
Joe Thomas is the best LT in football.
Mack is better than overrated Pouncey.
Haden is better than Ike Taylor already.
It's too early to tell if Phil Taylor is better than Heyward. But Taylor is a SOLID pick so far.
Jabaal Sheard isn't Lamar Woodley, but his a beast and is getting better.
And well, the terrorist Mendenhall is garbage. I'll take Hillis all day over Mendenhall.
Joe Thomas is very good BUT to compare his value to the value of Timmons and Woodley? Ya no. FSG is also comparing draft classes to which there isn't a close comparison at any point. His point WAS the Steelers draft amazingly well and continue to do so therefore a fall isn't likely to occur any time soon. You're comparing positions in some instances and classes in others.
Homotron said:
Joe Thomas is very good BUT to compare his value to the value of Timmons and Woodley? Ya no. FSG is also comparing draft classes to which there isn't a close comparison at any point. His point WAS the Steelers draft amazingly well and continue to do so therefore a fall isn't likely to occur any time soon. You're comparing positions in some instances and classes in others.
On what planet do you get that Timmons and Woodley are as good at their positions as JT is at his? (Or are you combining the two?).
These guys are good players, maybe even Pro Bowlers, but neither of them ranks as high at their position as JT.
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Homotron said:
Joe Thomas is very good BUT to compare his value to the value of Timmons and Woodley? Ya no. FSG is also comparing draft classes to which there isn't a close comparison at any point. His point WAS the Steelers draft amazingly well and continue to do so therefore a fall isn't likely to occur any time soon. You're comparing positions in some instances and classes in others.
On what planet do you get that Timmons and Woodley are as good at their positions as JT is at his? (Or are you combining the two?).
These guys are good players, maybe even Pro Bowlers, but neither of them ranks as high at their position as JT.
On what planet do you get that Timmons and Woodley are as good at their positions as JT is at his? (Or are you combining the two?).
These guys are good players, maybe even Pro Bowlers, but neither of them ranks as high at their position as JT.
He was comparing draft classes and if you do that it's not close. As far as position rank is concerned Lamar Woodley is up there and Timmons is certainly in the top 10 to 15 at MLB and he's still ridiculously young. Once again the discussion was drafting and draft classes. Choco i'm not sure what PLANET YOU reside but I'm fairly certain that Ben is consensus top 5 in just about every conversation outside of Cleveland. Hell even the Ravens fan base finds it in themselves to say the same. The senseless hate train is comical but if you want to be taken seriously you should act seriously from time to time.
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On what planet do you get that Timmons and Woodley are as good at their positions as JT is at his? (Or are you combining the two?).
These guys are good players, maybe even Pro Bowlers, but neither of them ranks as high at their position as JT.
He was comparing draft classes and if you do that it's not close. As far as position rank is concerned Lamar Woodley is up there and Timmons is certainly in the top 10 to 15 at MLB and he's still ridiculously young. Once again the discussion was drafting and draft classes. Choco i'm not sure what PLANET YOU reside but I'm fairly certain that Ben is consensus top 5 in just about every conversation outside of Cleveland. Hell even the Ravens fan base finds it in themselves to say the same. The senseless hate train is comical but if you want to be taken seriously you should act seriously from time to time.
Homotron said:
He was comparing draft classes and if you do that it's not close. As far as position rank is concerned Lamar Woodley is up there and Timmons is certainly in the top 10 to 15 at MLB and he's still ridiculously young. Once again the discussion was drafting and draft classes. Choco i'm not sure what PLANET YOU reside but I'm fairly certain that Ben is consensus top 5 in just about every conversation outside of Cleveland. Hell even the Ravens fan base finds it in themselves to say the same. The senseless hate train is comical but if you want to be taken seriously you should act seriously from time to time.
OK, more in depth analysis would have to be made of the totality of particular draft classes. I would concede that any draft prior to 2007 the Steelers would have the advantage on. Not sure about past that.
On BR, I think it fair to say that it is a concensus that he is a Top 10 QB, but not necessarily Top 5.
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Homotron said:
He was comparing draft classes and if you do that it's not close. As far as position rank is concerned Lamar Woodley is up there and Timmons is certainly in the top 10 to 15 at MLB and he's still ridiculously young. Once again the discussion was drafting and draft classes. Choco i'm not sure what PLANET YOU reside but I'm fairly certain that Ben is consensus top 5 in just about every conversation outside of Cleveland. Hell even the Ravens fan base finds it in themselves to say the same. The senseless hate train is comical but if you want to be taken seriously you should act seriously from time to time.
OK, more in depth analysis would have to be made of the totality of particular draft classes. I would concede that any draft prior to 2007 the Steelers would have the advantage on. Not sure about past that.
On BR, I think it fair to say that it is a concensus that he is a Top 10 QB, but not necessarily Top 5.
On BR, I think it fair to say that it is a concensus that he is a Top 10 QB, but not necessarily Top 5.[/color]
id agree as well. he's a great QB, just not in a conventional sense....as in a pocket passer that shreds records. he wins games, which is what matters ultimately.
however, for us fans that discuss such matters, stats and other accomplishments factor in. eli and ben have the same number of rings, yet eli's QBing numbers simply say he's a more efficient passer. since he doesn't have the escape ability that creates broken plays, hes more technically sound and disciplined at the position.
bens great and all, but kind of a one trick pony that cant be stopped. however, what happens to his game when he isn't strong enough to shake off those arm tackles?
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On BR, I think it fair to say that it is a concensus that he is a Top 10 QB, but not necessarily Top 5.[/color]
id agree as well. he's a great QB, just not in a conventional sense....as in a pocket passer that shreds records. he wins games, which is what matters ultimately.
however, for us fans that discuss such matters, stats and other accomplishments factor in. eli and ben have the same number of rings, yet eli's QBing numbers simply say he's a more efficient passer. since he doesn't have the escape ability that creates broken plays, hes more technically sound and disciplined at the position.
bens great and all, but kind of a one trick pony that cant be stopped. however, what happens to his game when he isn't strong enough to shake off those arm tackles?
id agree as well. he's a great QB, just not in a conventional sense....as in a pocket passer that shreds records. he wins games, which is what matters ultimately.
however, for us fans that discuss such matters, stats and other accomplishments factor in. eli and ben have the same number of rings, yet eli's QBing numbers simply say he's a more efficient passer. since he doesn't have the escape ability that creates broken plays, hes more technically sound and disciplined at the position.
bens great and all, but kind of a one trick pony that cant be stopped. however, what happens to his game when he isn't strong enough to shake off those arm tackles?
Lets also factor in. Hes not gonna be able to run around back there forever with all of the hits his knees has taken over the last few seasons.
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Top 5 QB's would be:
P. Manning
Brady
Rodgers
Brees
E. Manning or Rivers
Id take any of those choices before I even considered Ben.
Top 5 QB's would be:
P. Manning
Brady
Rodgers
Brees
E. Manning or Rivers
Id take any of those choices before I even considered Ben.
At this point, I would take Roethlisberger over P.Manning and Rivers.
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At this point, I would take Roethlisberger over P.Manning and Rivers.
Don't come in here with that nonsense PIZZA. You're supposed to be a BROWNS FAN!
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At this point, I would take Roethlisberger over P.Manning and Rivers.
Don't come in here with that nonsense PIZZA. You're supposed to be a BROWNS FAN!
Homotron said:
Don't come in here with that nonsense PIZZA. You're supposed to be a BROWNS FAN!
Why? When it is pure realism. Payton Manning has had 4 neck surgeries and is going to be 36 at the end of March. BR is 6 years younger, will turn just 30 on March 2d.
Rivers may in fact be the better QB, but he has not come up with the better results in his career. BR has had somewhat the better team around him....and BR has had the better coaching.
Norv Turner. Need more be said?
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Homotron said:
Don't come in here with that nonsense PIZZA. You're supposed to be a BROWNS FAN!
Why? When it is pure realism. Payton Manning has had 4 neck surgeries and is going to be 36 at the end of March. BR is 6 years younger, will turn just 30 on March 2d.
Rivers may in fact be the better QB, but he has not come up with the better results in his career. BR has had somewhat the better team around him....and BR has had the better coaching.
Norv Turner. Need more be said?
Why? When it is pure realism. Payton Manning has had 4 neck surgeries and is going to be 36 at the end of March. BR is 6 years younger, will turn just 30 on March 2d.
Rivers may in fact be the better QB, but he has not come up with the better results in his career. BR has had somewhat the better team around him....and BR has had the better coaching.
Norv Turner. Need more be said?
I'm a huge fan of Rivers abilities but some guys just seem to get it done when it matters and some don't. That is why I would take BR over Rivers. I'm not saying BR is top 5 for sure but there are only 3 QBs (Rodgers, Brees, Brady) that I would take before him for certain. The rest are up in the air.
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Why? When it is pure realism. Payton Manning has had 4 neck surgeries and is going to be 36 at the end of March. BR is 6 years younger, will turn just 30 on March 2d.
Rivers may in fact be the better QB, but he has not come up with the better results in his career. BR has had somewhat the better team around him....and BR has had the better coaching.
Norv Turner. Need more be said?
I'm a huge fan of Rivers abilities but some guys just seem to get it done when it matters and some don't. That is why I would take BR over Rivers. I'm not saying BR is top 5 for sure but there are only 3 QBs (Rodgers, Brees, Brady) that I would take before him for certain. The rest are up in the air.
I'm a huge fan of Rivers abilities but some guys just seem to get it done when it matters and some don't. That is why I would take BR over Rivers. I'm not saying BR is top 5 for sure but there are only 3 QBs (Rodgers, Brees, Brady) that I would take before him for certain. The rest are up in the air.
Fair enough. You are right. Rivers and the whole Chargers team has not gotten it done when it counts. (Ah...but can you say the same thing about Brady at least since 2004?)
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Homotron said:
Don't come in here with that nonsense PIZZA. You're supposed to be a BROWNS FAN!
Why? When it is pure realism. Payton Manning has had 4 neck surgeries and is going to be 36 at the end of March. BR is 6 years younger, will turn just 30 on March 2d.
Rivers may in fact be the better QB, but he has not come up with the better results in his career. BR has had somewhat the better team around him....and BR has had the better coaching.
Norv Turner. Need more be said?
Why? When it is pure realism. Payton Manning has had 4 neck surgeries and is going to be 36 at the end of March. BR is 6 years younger, will turn just 30 on March 2d.
Rivers may in fact be the better QB, but he has not come up with the better results in his career. BR has had somewhat the better team around him....and BR has had the better coaching.
Norv Turner. Need more be said?
Your sarcasm meter must be WAY off. Ben has been better than Rivers for a while and clearly Manning is done.
AKA SNATCH98 or Rorbotron. The boards glorious admins decided to get cute and change my name to "homotron" Classy group of people. (Lost a bet with Columbus king and got banned for a month) -
Why in the hell is there a thread about the Steelers?
I would say Rivers is a better QB,Roethlisberger is a better football player.
Hines Ward released. I say we sign him and have him clean the toilets,I think Rodney Harrison wanted to slap that bitch at the Superbowl.
"All Truth Passes Through Three stages. First, It Is Ridiculed, Second It Is Violently Opposed, And Third, It Is Accepted As Self-Evident" ~Arthur Schopenhauer -
Why? When it is pure realism. Payton Manning has had 4 neck surgeries and is going to be 36 at the end of March. BR is 6 years younger, will turn just 30 on March 2d.
Rivers may in fact be the better QB, but he has not come up with the better results in his career. BR has had somewhat the better team around him....and BR has had the better coaching.
Norv Turner. Need more be said?
Your sarcasm meter must be WAY off. Ben has been better than Rivers for a while and clearly Manning is done.
Homotron said:
Your sarcasm meter must be WAY off. Ben has been better than Rivers for a while and clearly Manning is done.
Ben's team has been better than Rivers. Ben's coaches has been better than Rivers. But I don't know if Ben is better than Rivers. It is close enough to be debatable.
As far as Manning, neither I nor you have a clue as to whether or not he is done.
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Homotron said:
Your sarcasm meter must be WAY off. Ben has been better than Rivers for a while and clearly Manning is done.
Ben's team has been better than Rivers. Ben's coaches has been better than Rivers. But I don't know if Ben is better than Rivers. It is close enough to be debatable.
As far as Manning, neither I nor you have a clue as to whether or not he is done.
Ben's team has been better than Rivers. Ben's coaches has been better than Rivers. But I don't know if Ben is better than Rivers. It is close enough to be debatable.
As far as Manning, neither I nor you have a clue as to whether or not he is done.
I think Rivers has had the better offensive talent around him.
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Ben's team has been better than Rivers. Ben's coaches has been better than Rivers. But I don't know if Ben is better than Rivers. It is close enough to be debatable.
As far as Manning, neither I nor you have a clue as to whether or not he is done.
I think Rivers has had the better offensive talent around him.
I think Rivers has had the better offensive talent around him.
And at times he had an outstanding defense. Yes, Rivers gets some of the blame, but for me, for that Chargers team it always comes back down to the coaching. At first, Rivers had Marty as HC and we all know that Marty always choked up in the big games. But then he has had Norv Turner, who makes Marty's esophagus looke like a wind tunnel.
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Looks like Wallace might be a goner, Steelers plan to tender him so maybe someone with a pick in the 20's snags him up.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7633206/pittsburgh-steelers-franchise-wr-mike-wallace-source-says
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