Qb Musical Chairs
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I think you are shortchanging Brian Sipe. First off, he was the Browns primary starting QB in 7 seasons: 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, and 83. He would have been primary in an 8th season as well in 1982 except he was injured and started only 6 games.
And as for his "legendary" season, he was named the NFL's MVP. He threw for over 4000 yards. Only 2 people in history ever did that before: Namath and Fouts. (Because of changes in the game, these "production" numbers get scewed. There were 11 4000 yard QBs in the NFL last year...you need to compare him to the competition of his era, not to the numbers of later QBs.) And Sipe was "productive" enough in his career to still be the Browns career leader in most QB categories, like yards and TDs....more than even Otto Graham and Bernie Kosar. (and yes, with Graham, the same concept applies...you can't really compare apples to apples when looking at raw numbers).
As for Sipe being a bust as a free agent. I don't know if that is true. He went to the USFL after 12 years with the Browns for the bucks. (the stats don't show up because for 2 years he was on the Taxi Squad and never saw the field). I believe he did fairly well with the New Jersey Generals the year he was there. Then he left for the Jacksonville Bulls where he concluded his 14 year career due to injury.
I didn't mean to imply that he didn't play for 7 or 8 years. He was only effective for 3 or 4 seasons - basically '78 through about half of '81. By mid way through the '81 season, he was throwing interceptions at a remarkable clip, including 6 in a 22 point loss to the Steelers. A fete he would actually duplicate two years later, this time in Pittsburgh. History is not kind to Brian Sipe... but Cleveland is.
My comparison to Scott Mitchell (he was who I referred to as one of the biggest free agent busts in history), was just to illustrate a point. Scott Mitchell is universally panned as a horrible decision for the Lions. But most people forget that he threw for 4300 yards and 32 TDs with just 12 picks in 1995, and took the Lions to the playoffs. They only seem to remember the abysmal game he had against Philadelphia when he got there. I just feel like at times, fans look at their players through unique lenses.
-jj
I didn't mean to imply that he didn't play for 7 or 8 years. He was only effective for 3 or 4 seasons - basically '78 through about half of '81. By mid way through the '81 season, he was throwing interceptions at a remarkable clip, including 6 in a 22 point loss to the Steelers. A fete he would actually duplicate two years later, this time in Pittsburgh. History is not kind to Brian Sipe... but Cleveland is.
My comparison to Scott Mitchell (he was who I referred to as one of the biggest free agent busts in history), was just to illustrate a point. Scott Mitchell is universally panned as a horrible decision for the Lions. But most people forget that he threw for 4300 yards and 32 TDs with just 12 picks in 1995, and took the Lions to the playoffs. They only seem to remember the abysmal game he had against Philadelphia when he got there. I just feel like at times, fans look at their players through unique lenses.
-jj
Comparing Sipe to Scott Mitchell is the dumbest thing I ever heard of. Sipe was able to read defenses and throw timing patterns Mitchell could not...Mitchell had no touch...Sipe had plenty. Sipe could actually throw a receiver open.
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Zombo said:
Someone needs to sell me on Tannehill. I watched him toward the end of the season with great anticipation and went "Meh".
I could see why the Browns would be interested, I really I can. He has good size, lots of experience, and played in Mike Sherman's system.
Those are all big pluses in my book. But when I watched him play he seemed average arm, average accuracy, and a little slow making decisions. Meh.
I see the updside in him, but he kind makes me want to give Colt another year in the system and save the #22 for another starting player.
I just wish somebody could get me excited about him, then I'd be the full-blown Shep "QB whore" that everyone loves to hate.
Zombo
I'll give it a shot...
Watch again and focus on his feet (moving, but not dancing) and his release (straight from the shoulder and gone). He bounces, he squares up and he gets the ball gone fast. Arm strength is good enough. And he's a natural at rolling and throwing on the run.
Experience-wise I'm not sure how you call 1-1/2 years of Div 1 play "lots of experience"??? His first two years he was a WR... and a pretty good one. His productivity despite a lack of experience is one of the more intriguing things about Ryan.
And then there's his running...
I'll close by saying I would not spend a round 1 on him. I was full on with him when he was a 3rd rounder, which is where he finished 2011 and even a 2nd where he paused briefly during his recent rise. Now some mocks have us taking him at #4...
Desperation is an ugly thing.
I'll give it a shot...
Watch again and focus on his feet (moving, but not dancing) and his release (straight from the shoulder and gone). He bounces, he squares up and he gets the ball gone fast. Arm strength is good enough. And he's a natural at rolling and throwing on the run.
Experience-wise I'm not sure how you call 1-1/2 years of Div 1 play "lots of experience"??? His first two years he was a WR... and a pretty good one. His productivity despite a lack of experience is one of the more intriguing things about Ryan.
And then there's his running...
I'll close by saying I would not spend a round 1 on him. I was full on with him when he was a 3rd rounder, which is where he finished 2011 and even a 2nd where he paused briefly during his recent rise. Now some mocks have us taking him at #4...
Desperation is an ugly thing.
I heard Mike Mayock talking about him yesterday and his opinion was that he definitely has the ability to be a NFL franchise QB but that he was at least a year away from starting in the NFL. I don't want to see us spend the #22 or god forbid even the #4 on a guy who isn't good enough to play this year.
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I hope H&H don't talk themselves into Tannehill at the 4, like Walterfootball has them doing. Gawd, what a horrible day that would be.
I'd like Blackmon, but I can see the logic behind Claiborne.
22 = Mike Adams, 37 = Sanu, 3rd rd = RB, Manny Lawson as a FA.
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I was making the comparison simply for effect. I even said as much. My point was only that of Cleveland's patron saints is to the rest of the sporting world, historically irrelevant. Only in Cleveland (or among Cleveland fans more accurately), is his career held in such high esteem.
To the rest of the world, the guy was a marginal, undersized quarterback who had a couple of good seasons 30 years ago... One very good. He peaked too late and declined too early. Only in Cleveland does that make you a legend.
And I'm not saying that anything is wrong with that. I just have a problem with, when discussing top quarterbacks or quarterbacking characteristics, that people want to throw his name in the mix. He doesn't belong in the discussion.
-jj
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This was a FA list from earlier. I know some have signed, but what has happened with these "lesser tier" QB free agents? List if you know who they may have signed with.
Chris Redman (ATL)
Derek Anderson (CAR)
Caleb Hanie (CHI)
Josh McCown (CHI)
Shaun Hill (DET)
Drew Stanton (DET)..I know Stanton was with Jets but now wants out.
Brady Quinn (DEN)
David Garrard (FA)
Chad Pennington (FA)
Jake Delhomme (HOU)
Jeff Garcia (HOU)
Dan Orlovsky (IND)
Luke McCown (JAC)
Chad Henne (MIA) Jags?
JP Losman (MIA)
Sage Rosenfels (MIA)
David Carr (NYG)
Mark Brunell (NYJ)
Kevin O'Connell (NYJ)
Kyle Boller (OAK)
Vince Young (PHI)
Charlie Batch (PIT)
Dennis Dixon (PIT)
Byron Leftwich (PIT)
Charlie Whitehurst (SEA)
Kellen Clemens (STL)
A.J. Feeley (STL)
Josh Johnson (TB)
Richard Bartel (ARZ) - Restricted
Max Hall (ARZ) - Exclusive Rights
Tyler Palko (KC) - Restricted
Brian Hoyer (NE) - Restricted
Chase Daniel (NO) - Restricted
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I was making the comparison simply for effect. I even said as much. My point was only that of Cleveland's patron saints is to the rest of the sporting world, historically irrelevant. Only in Cleveland (or among Cleveland fans more accurately), is his career held in such high esteem.
To the rest of the world, the guy was a marginal, undersized quarterback who had a couple of good seasons 30 years ago... One very good. He peaked too late and declined too early. Only in Cleveland does that make you a legend.
And I'm not saying that anything is wrong with that. I just have a problem with, when discussing top quarterbacks or quarterbacking characteristics, that people want to throw his name in the mix. He doesn't belong in the discussion.
-jj
I was making the comparison simply for effect. I even said as much. My point was only that of Cleveland's patron saints is to the rest of the sporting world, historically irrelevant. Only in Cleveland (or among Cleveland fans more accurately), is his career held in such high esteem.
OH, I suspect it probably happens in any city that hasn't won in a long time.
To the rest of the world, the guy was a marginal, undersized quarterback who had a couple of good seasons 30 years ago... One very good. He peaked too late and declined too early. Only in Cleveland does that make you a legend.
Ditto from above...but, in a sense you can say the same exact things about BK that you said about Sipe (except that BK actually did win some playoff games)
And I'm not saying that anything is wrong with that. I just have a problem with, when discussing top quarterbacks or quarterbacking characteristics, that people want to throw his name in the mix. He doesn't belong in the discussion.
The discussion about what?
-jj
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This was a FA list from earlier. I know some have signed, but what has happened with these "lesser tier" QB free agents? List if you know who they may have signed with.
Chris Redman (ATL)
Derek Anderson (CAR)
Caleb Hanie (CHI)
Josh McCown (CHI)
Shaun Hill (DET)
Drew Stanton (DET)..I know Stanton was with Jets but now wants out.
Brady Quinn (DEN)
David Garrard (FA)
Chad Pennington (FA)
Jake Delhomme (HOU)
Jeff Garcia (HOU)
Dan Orlovsky (IND)
Luke McCown (JAC)
Chad Henne (MIA) Jags?
JP Losman (MIA)
Sage Rosenfels (MIA)
David Carr (NYG)
Mark Brunell (NYJ)
Kevin O'Connell (NYJ)
Kyle Boller (OAK)
Vince Young (PHI)
Charlie Batch (PIT)
Dennis Dixon (PIT)
Byron Leftwich (PIT)
Charlie Whitehurst (SEA)
Kellen Clemens (STL)
A.J. Feeley (STL)
Josh Johnson (TB)
Richard Bartel (ARZ) - Restricted
Max Hall (ARZ) - Exclusive Rights
Tyler Palko (KC) - Restricted
Brian Hoyer (NE) - Restricted
Chase Daniel (NO) - Restricted
This was a FA list from earlier. I know some have signed, but what has happened with these "lesser tier" QB free agents? List if you know who they may have signed with.
Brian Hoyer (NE) - Restricted
That's the only name on this list that's interesting. It would cost a 2nd round pick and might make some sense.
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Should he end up in Cleveland, AJ Feely might be the best thing that ever happened to Colt McCoy.
-jj
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Explain yourself.
AJ is a pro. He's a good teammate, and an excellent student. And he knows Reid/Shurmur's West Coast Offense as well as any human being on the planet. He has some of the same physical limitations as McCoy. Although, he's a bit bigger, he's never had a top flight arm, and has relied on his mobility at times - as limited as it may be.
You can learn all you can from a coach or coordinator. But you'll never be able to recreate the knowledge of being on the field, the practice field, and the film room as a quarterback. AJ's been doing that for a decade.
-jj
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Explain yourself.
AJ is a pro. He's a good teammate, and an excellent student. And he knows Reid/Shurmur's West Coast Offense as well as any human being on the planet. He has some of the same physical limitations as McCoy. Although, he's a bit bigger, he's never had a top flight arm, and has relied on his mobility at times - as limited as it may be.
You can learn all you can from a coach or coordinator. But you'll never be able to recreate the knowledge of being on the field, the practice field, and the film room as a quarterback. AJ's been doing that for a decade.
-jj
AJ is a pro. He's a good teammate, and an excellent student. And he knows Reid/Shurmur's West Coast Offense as well as any human being on the planet. He has some of the same physical limitations as McCoy. Although, he's a bit bigger, he's never had a top flight arm, and has relied on his mobility at times - as limited as it may be.
You can learn all you can from a coach or coordinator. But you'll never be able to recreate the knowledge of being on the field, the practice field, and the film room as a quarterback. AJ's been doing that for a decade.
-jj
Yet, that is why some have said we should sign Donovan McNabb, for that same purpose.
(they said that expecially when it was thought that we might have RGIII here)
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AJ is a pro. He's a good teammate, and an excellent student. And he knows Reid/Shurmur's West Coast Offense as well as any human being on the planet. He has some of the same physical limitations as McCoy. Although, he's a bit bigger, he's never had a top flight arm, and has relied on his mobility at times - as limited as it may be.
You can learn all you can from a coach or coordinator. But you'll never be able to recreate the knowledge of being on the field, the practice field, and the film room as a quarterback. AJ's been doing that for a decade.
-jj
Yet, that is why some have said we should sign Donovan McNabb, for that same purpose.
(they said that expecially when it was thought that we might have RGIII here)
Yet, that is why some have said we should sign Donovan McNabb, for that same purpose.
(they said that expecially when it was thought that we might have RGIII here)
True. I wouldn't be a fan of bringing McNabb in to this situation however. Feeley knows he's a back up... and he's been a darn good one for a long time. He can get Colt prepared to function within this offense. And, if all else fails, A.J. would be a great role model for how you become a quality backup in this league, rack up $15-20 million over the next decade and a half, and retire relatively pain free and with all your faculties. It ain't a bad living.
I'm not sure McNabb is at the point in his career where he's accepted that he's a back up. Sure if you had a rookie quarterback, you might bring McNabb in to mentor, if for no other reason, than he may have to start those first few games. But with an incumbent quarterback with two years' experience, McNabb just doesn't fit.
-jj
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