The Best Player Taken In Each Draft
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05 has to be Rogers.
Again, same deal. Demarcus Ware 6 Pro Bowls, 4 First team all pro.
Rodgers only 2 Pro Bowls and 1 first team All Pro
A caveat is that with active players it is hard to judge. By the time each career is over, you may be right. Interimly however Ware I think has had the overall better career to date.
Again, same deal. Demarcus Ware 6 Pro Bowls, 4 First team all pro.
Rodgers only 2 Pro Bowls and 1 first team All Pro
A caveat is that with active players it is hard to judge. By the time each career is over, you may be right. Interimly however Ware I think has had the overall better career to date.
Ware is a great talent, but Rodgers has that one thing that beats a pro bowl, a championship ring.
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Again, same deal. Demarcus Ware 6 Pro Bowls, 4 First team all pro.
Rodgers only 2 Pro Bowls and 1 first team All Pro
A caveat is that with active players it is hard to judge. By the time each career is over, you may be right. Interimly however Ware I think has had the overall better career to date.
Ware is a great talent, but Rodgers has that one thing that beats a pro bowl, a championship ring.
Ware is a great talent, but Rodgers has that one thing that beats a pro bowl, a championship ring.
So does the long snapper on the Packers. So did Mark Rypien, and neither of them were going to get the vote as the best player drafted. That alone couldn't be my sole criteria...though it could certainly come into play as the years go on.
Most guys drafted pre 2000 I can get a handle on. For post 2000 I had to go mostly with Pro Bowl/1st team results.
E.g. for 2004 I chose Larry Fitzgerald over both Eli and BR. I have a feeling that at the conclusion of their careers it may not stay that way, but for now, I chose the guy with the most accolades over the 2 QBs with 2 rings.
(Nevertheless, good food for thought)
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Zombo said:
It's not arguable. One is a Guard and one is a Running Back.
Guards don't get voted League MVP, they contribute to success, they don't bring it.
I see you have Mike Munchak over Marcus Allen as well. I don't remember a 73 yard run by Munchak in the Super Bowl.
Guards are great, those guys deserve to be Hall of Famers but they are just Guards.
Allen and Tomlinson were superstars and playmakers who won games.
At one point, Tomlinson was not just the beat player from his draft class, he was the best player in the League. No Guard ever was.
Zombo
And without the Guards, Tackles and Centers, Tomlinson and Allen are knocked on their asses for a 4 yard loss instead of a 73 yard gain.
And if I say it is arguable, it is arguable, because I am arguing
(But I still feel you...these were some of the hardest choices)
And without the Guards, Tackles and Centers, Tomlinson and Allen are knocked on their asses for a 4 yard loss instead of a 73 yard gain.
And if I say it is arguable, it is arguable, because I am arguing
(But I still feel you...these were some of the hardest choices)
Yes, apparently, and surprisingly, it is arguable.
It is easy for me though, because I followed their careers.
Greatness is not mathematical, you can't just add up Pro Bowls and All Pros and measure guys from different positions and eras equally.
But here's some math: LaDanian Tomlinson scored 162 TDS.
In a 149 games with the Chargers, he scored 153 TDs ... more than a TD per game.
If you are the GM and they are re-holding the the 2001 draft, Do you take the guy that is going to average a touchdown a week for nine years, or are you going to take a really good guard who is a really good blocker and makes lots of All-Pro teams?
I'll take the touchdowns ... and the 18,500 yards from scrimmage. I'll find a decent guard to block for him.
Zombo
--Superstars win games and sell tickets ... guards block.
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And without the Guards, Tackles and Centers, Tomlinson and Allen are knocked on their asses for a 4 yard loss instead of a 73 yard gain.
And if I say it is arguable, it is arguable, because I am arguing
(But I still feel you...these were some of the hardest choices)
Yes, apparently, and surprisingly, it is arguable.
It is easy for me though, because I followed their careers.
Greatness is not mathematical, you can't just add up Pro Bowls and All Pros and measure guys from different positions and eras equally.
But here's some math: LaDanian Tomlinson scored 162 TDS.
In a 149 games with the Chargers, he scored 153 TDs ... more than a TD per game.
If you are the GM and they are re-holding the the 2001 draft, Do you take the guy that is going to average a touchdown a week for nine years, or are you going to take a really good guard who is a really good blocker and makes lots of All-Pro teams?
I'll take the touchdowns ... and the 18,500 yards from scrimmage. I'll find a decent guard to block for him.
Zombo
--Superstars win games and sell tickets ... guards block.
Zombo said:
Yes, apparently, and surprisingly, it is arguable.
It is easy for me though, because I followed their careers.
[b]Greatness is not mathematical, you can't just add up Pro Bowls and All Pros and measure guys from different positions and eras equally.
But here's some math: LaDanian Tomlinson scored 162 TDS.
In a 149 games with the Chargers, he scored 153 TDs ... more than a TD per game.
But here you just used mathematics to prove your point. You could likewise say "you can't just add up yards and TDs" ...but you did just that.
If you are the GM and they are re-holding the the 2001 draft, Do you take the guy that is going to average a touchdown a week for nine years, or are you going to take a really good guard who is a really good blocker and makes lots of All-Pro teams?
I'll take the touchdowns ... and the 18,500 yards from scrimmage. I'll find a decent guard to block for him.
Zombo
--Superstars win games and sell tickets ... guards block. [/b]
I think the Superstars sell tickets, but they equally win games. Ask Jim Brown....he readily admitted that he would have been nothing without the likes of Shafrath and Hickerson in front of him.
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Zombo said:
Yes, apparently, and surprisingly, it is arguable.
It is easy for me though, because I followed their careers.
[b]Greatness is not mathematical, you can't just add up Pro Bowls and All Pros and measure guys from different positions and eras equally.
But here's some math: LaDanian Tomlinson scored 162 TDS.
In a 149 games with the Chargers, he scored 153 TDs ... more than a TD per game.
But here you just used mathematics to prove your point. You could likewise say "you can't just add up yards and TDs" ...but you did just that.
If you are the GM and they are re-holding the the 2001 draft, Do you take the guy that is going to average a touchdown a week for nine years, or are you going to take a really good guard who is a really good blocker and makes lots of All-Pro teams?
I'll take the touchdowns ... and the 18,500 yards from scrimmage. I'll find a decent guard to block for him.
Zombo
--Superstars win games and sell tickets ... guards block. [/b]
I think the Superstars sell tickets, but they equally win games. Ask Jim Brown....he readily admitted that he would have been nothing without the likes of Shafrath and Hickerson in front of him.
I think the Superstars sell tickets, but they equally win games. Ask Jim Brown....he readily admitted that he would have been nothing without the likes of Shafrath and Hickerson in front of him.
There is not one GM in the world that would pass up Jim Brown for Gene Hickerson or LaDanian Tomlinson for Steve Hutchinson.
You and Steve Hutchinson's mom are the only people that think he was a greater player than Tomlinson.
Zombo
--and deep down, even Mom knows better.
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I think the Superstars sell tickets, but they equally win games. Ask Jim Brown....he readily admitted that he would have been nothing without the likes of Shafrath and Hickerson in front of him.
There is not one GM in the world that would pass up Jim Brown for Gene Hickerson or LaDanian Tomlinson for Steve Hutchinson.
You and Steve Hutchinson's mom are the only people that think he was a greater player than Tomlinson.
Zombo
--and deep down, even Mom knows better.
Zombo said:
There is not one GM in the world that would pass up Jim Brown for Gene Hickerson or LaDanian Tomlinson for Steve Hutchinson.
You and Steve Hutchinson's mom are the only people that think he was a greater player than Tomlinson.
Zombo
--and deep down, even Mom knows better.
On the whole I agree that you would not make that trade.
But in trying to define greatness I think this question can be asked, and perhaps answered:
Who was better at doing what his position called for...the running back or the offensive lineman?
Hutchinson HAS been selected more time for being the best at what he does than Tomlinson has.
Yes, it is a big apples and oranges question.
It is like Tourma who argues that because the '78 Steelers OL and DL weighed more than the OL and DL of the '48 Browns that that automatically makes them the better team.
(and I countered with: if that is the criteria then the 2011 Browns would blow away the '78 Steelers because they average 50 more pounds across the board.)
Apples and oranges: Which team dominated its competition more....which player dominated his competition more?
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I looked at this and as soon as I saw Peterson over Cam Newton then Ware over Rodgers and Jake Long over Chris Johnson i didn't even want to read anymore.
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Zombo said:
There is not one GM in the world that would pass up Jim Brown for Gene Hickerson or LaDanian Tomlinson for Steve Hutchinson.
You and Steve Hutchinson's mom are the only people that think he was a greater player than Tomlinson.
Zombo
--and deep down, even Mom knows better.
On the whole I agree that you would not make that trade.
But in trying to define greatness I think this question can be asked, and perhaps answered:
Who was better at doing what his position called for...the running back or the offensive lineman?
Hutchinson HAS been selected more time for being the best at what he does than Tomlinson has.
Yes, it is a big apples and oranges question.
It is like Tourma who argues that because the '78 Steelers OL and DL weighed more than the OL and DL of the '48 Browns that that automatically makes them the better team.
(and I countered with: if that is the criteria then the 2011 Browns would blow away the '78 Steelers because they average 50 more pounds across the board.)
Apples and oranges: Which team dominated its competition more....which player dominated his competition more?
....which player dominated his competition more?
Tomlinson!
Your competition is not the beauty contest at the end of the year that sends the same linemen to Honolulu every year, it is the games on Sunday which LT dominated.
Being the best of all the guards is nice, but the truly special players in the NFL are the Tom Brady's and Peyton Manning's and the Jim Brown's, Marcus allen's and Ladanian Tomlinson's
The best guard in the league is not as valuble as the 5th best running back or the 10th best quarterback.
In 2006, Tomlinson scored 31 TDs .. the entire Browns roster that year scored 25 ... guards included.
LaDainian Tomlinson has scored the third most touchdowns in the entire history of the NFL:
Jerry Rice
Emmitt Smith
LaDainian Tomlinson
That's the list of all-time TD leaders since 1920. Touchdowns are kind of important in the grand sceme of things.
How about all-time leading rushers: Tomlinson is 5th.
Only two guys scored more touchdowns, only four guys ran for more yards ... there is no guard in the world that was a better football player.
Accumulating Pro bowls and All Pros as a guard is not the same thing as scoring more touchdowns than everybody else. It just isn't.
Apples and oranges my ass. The question is who was the best player in that draft, and the answer is LaDainian Tomilnson.
Zombo
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I think the Superstars sell tickets, but they equally win games. Ask Jim Brown....he readily admitted that he would have been nothing without the likes of Shafrath and Hickerson in front of him.
There is not one GM in the world that would pass up Jim Brown for Gene Hickerson or LaDanian Tomlinson for Steve Hutchinson.
You and Steve Hutchinson's mom are the only people that think he was a greater player than Tomlinson.
Zombo
--and deep down, even Mom knows better.
Interesting topic there Gip... I'll whip up my list later... but no way do I go back to '36...
One general thought... I think it's too soon to judge "greatest" for the past four to eight drafts.
Zombo said:
You and Steve Hutchinson's mom are the only people that think he was a greater player than Tomlinson.You forgot me...
Hutchinson and Munchek are two of the Greatest Guards to ever play the game. They were generational talents and were easily all-time, top fivers at their position..
Are Tomlinson and Allen both top five RB's on your list?
There is an argument to be had...
Zombo said:
Being the best of all the guards is nice, but the truly special players in the NFL are the Tom Brady's and Peyton Manning's and the Jim Brown's, Marcus allen's and Ladanian Tomlinson's.The best guard in the league is not as valuble as the 5th best running back or the 10th best quarterback.
The question was "Greatest", not "most valuable".
Great is a reflection of skill and physical prowess at the position played.
Value is as you say production.
Right argument, but wrong topic there Z...
Here's a couple you did not seem to have a problem with, defying your own "logic"...
1966 Tom Mack C Rams #2 (over Jan Stenerud)
1968 Art Shell OT Raiders #80 (over Csonka)
1971 Dan Dierdorf OT Cards #43 (over Riggins)
1973 John Hannah OG Pats #4 (over Fouts)
1980 Anthony Munoz OT Bengals #3 (over Monk)
1994 Larry Allen OG Cowboys #46 (over Falk)
2008 Jake Long OT Dolphins #1 (over Chris Johnson)
Care to comment? Fouts over Hannah ought to be easy... How 'bout Monk over Munoz?
By your criteria you have to also make the case for Stenerud over Tom Mack...
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Interesting topic there Gip... I'll whip up my list later... but no way do I go back to '36...
One general thought... I think it's too soon to judge "greatest" for the past four to eight drafts.
Zombo said:
You and Steve Hutchinson's mom are the only people that think he was a greater player than Tomlinson.You forgot me...
Hutchinson and Munchek are two of the Greatest Guards to ever play the game. They were generational talents and were easily all-time, top fivers at their position..
Are Tomlinson and Allen both top five RB's on your list?
There is an argument to be had...
Zombo said:
Being the best of all the guards is nice, but the truly special players in the NFL are the Tom Brady's and Peyton Manning's and the Jim Brown's, Marcus allen's and Ladanian Tomlinson's.The best guard in the league is not as valuble as the 5th best running back or the 10th best quarterback.
The question was "Greatest", not "most valuable".
Great is a reflection of skill and physical prowess at the position played.
Value is as you say production.
Right argument, but wrong topic there Z...
Here's a couple you did not seem to have a problem with, defying your own "logic"...
1966 Tom Mack C Rams #2 (over Jan Stenerud)
1968 Art Shell OT Raiders #80 (over Csonka)
1971 Dan Dierdorf OT Cards #43 (over Riggins)
1973 John Hannah OG Pats #4 (over Fouts)
1980 Anthony Munoz OT Bengals #3 (over Monk)
1994 Larry Allen OG Cowboys #46 (over Falk)
2008 Jake Long OT Dolphins #1 (over Chris Johnson)
Care to comment? Fouts over Hannah ought to be easy... How 'bout Monk over Munoz?
By your criteria you have to also make the case for Stenerud over Tom Mack...
Interesting topic there Gip... I'll whip up my list later... but no way do I go back to '36...
One general thought... I think it's too soon to judge "greatest" for the past four to eight drafts.
You forgot me...
Hutchinson and Munchek are two of the Greatest Guards to ever play the game. They were generational talents and were easily all-time, top fivers at their position..
Are Tomlinson and Allen both top five RB's on your list?
There is an argument to be had...
The question was "Greatest", not "most valuable".
Great is a reflection of skill and physical prowess at the position played.
Value is as you say production.
Right argument, but wrong topic there Z...
Here's a couple you did not seem to have a problem with, defying your own "logic"...
Care to comment? Fouts over Hannah ought to be easy... How 'bout Monk over Munoz?
By your criteria you have to also make the case for Stenerud over Tom Mack...
I didn't look them all over, but yes Fouts over Hannah.
By my criteria there is no way in hell you make a case of Stenerud over Mack, Kickers don't belong in this discussion.
There is no way in fucking hell you score the third most TDs in NFL history but you're not the the best player in your own draft class because a guard made All-Pro every year.
I'm not talking just "most valuable" I am talking "Best".
The origninal poster cried that the Browns never draft the best player and that was what inspired this thread. Gipper put up a list of who he feels was the best player in each draft.
The best player in 2001 was Tomlinson. If they did it over Tomlinson and Drew Brees would go before Hutchinson, you know it, I know it, gipper knows it, and Hutchinson's mom knows it.
The guardiest guard of all guards will never ever be a better player than LaDainian Tomlinson. He was the best player in the league for a stretch of time, a league that included Brady and Manning. Hutchinson is an elite guard. Tomlinson is among the most eite football players ever to play the game.
Zombo
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I looked at this and as soon as I saw Peterson over Cam Newton then Ware over Rodgers and Jake Long over Chris Johnson i didn't even want to read anymore.
I looked at this and as soon as I saw Peterson over Cam Newton then Ware over Rodgers and Jake Long over Chris Johnson i didn't even want to read anymore.
That is because you are apparently incapable of in depth analysis, or apparently of understanding the subtleties and qualities of the "non-skill" positions.
Ware has been to the Pro Bowl 6 times and named ALL Pro at his position 4 times. Rodgers has been to 2 Pro Bowls and made one All Pro team.
By certain objective measures Ware has been superior at manning his position than Rodgers has been at his.
Same with Jake Long: Numerous All Pro and Pro Bowls vs. fewer for Johnson.
And Peterson was one of only 3 rookies last year to make the Pro Bowl, and the only rookie to make first team All Pro.
You are just seeing the surface/flashy things that come in front of your eyes. Do some critical analysis.
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....which player dominated his competition more?
Tomlinson!
Your competition is not the beauty contest at the end of the year that sends the same linemen to Honolulu every year, it is the games on Sunday which LT dominated.
Being the best of all the guards is nice, but the truly special players in the NFL are the Tom Brady's and Peyton Manning's and the Jim Brown's, Marcus allen's and Ladanian Tomlinson's
The best guard in the league is not as valuble as the 5th best running back or the 10th best quarterback.
In 2006, Tomlinson scored 31 TDs .. the entire Browns roster that year scored 25 ... guards included.
LaDainian Tomlinson has scored the third most touchdowns in the entire history of the NFL:
Jerry Rice
Emmitt Smith
LaDainian Tomlinson
That's the list of all-time TD leaders since 1920. Touchdowns are kind of important in the grand sceme of things.
How about all-time leading rushers: Tomlinson is 5th.
Only two guys scored more touchdowns, only four guys ran for more yards ... there is no guard in the world that was a better football player.
Accumulating Pro bowls and All Pros as a guard is not the same thing as scoring more touchdowns than everybody else. It just isn't.
Apples and oranges my ass. The question is who was the best player in that draft, and the answer is LaDainian Tomilnson.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Tomlinson!
Your competition is not the beauty contest at the end of the year that sends the same linemen to Honolulu every year, it is the games on Sunday which LT dominated.
Being the best of all the guards is nice, but the truly special players in the NFL are the Tom Brady's and Peyton Manning's and the Jim Brown's, Marcus allen's and Ladanian Tomlinson's
The best guard in the league is not as valuble as the 5th best running back or the 10th best quarterback.
In 2006, Tomlinson scored 31 TDs .. the entire Browns roster that year scored 25 ... guards included.
LaDainian Tomlinson has scored the third most touchdowns in the entire history of the NFL:
Jerry Rice
Emmitt Smith
LaDainian Tomlinson
That's the list of all-time TD leaders since 1920. Touchdowns are kind of important in the grand sceme of things.
How about all-time leading rushers: Tomlinson is 5th.
Only two guys scored more touchdowns, only four guys ran for more yards ... there is no guard in the world that was a better football player.
Accumulating Pro bowls and All Pros as a guard is not the same thing as scoring more touchdowns than everybody else. It just isn't.
Apples and oranges my ass. The question is who was the best player in that draft, and the answer is LaDainian Tomilnson.
Zombo
I think Tourma is making some good counter arguments.
Perhaps if they counted "Pancake Blocks" the way they do yards and TDs etc. there could be some comparison.
Your points are well taken....but when you begin to sound like Ghoolie...well, there is a natural resistance to your position, even if I would be otherwise inclined to agree.
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One general thought... I think it's too soon to judge "greatest" for the past four to eight drafts.
Yes, of course it is, but I did it any way just for shits and giggles. That is why it was foolish for Brownfish to get his panties in a bunch over my choice of Peterson.
For all we know Cam Newton may become the next Vince Young, and Peterson the next Darrel Greene....or maybe not.
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Zombo said:
Tomlinson!
Your competition is not the beauty contest at the end of the year that sends the same linemen to Honolulu every year, it is the games on Sunday which LT dominated.
Being the best of all the guards is nice, but the truly special players in the NFL are the Tom Brady's and Peyton Manning's and the Jim Brown's, Marcus allen's and Ladanian Tomlinson's
The best guard in the league is not as valuble as the 5th best running back or the 10th best quarterback.
In 2006, Tomlinson scored 31 TDs .. the entire Browns roster that year scored 25 ... guards included.
LaDainian Tomlinson has scored the third most touchdowns in the entire history of the NFL:
Jerry Rice
Emmitt Smith
LaDainian Tomlinson
That's the list of all-time TD leaders since 1920. Touchdowns are kind of important in the grand sceme of things.
How about all-time leading rushers: Tomlinson is 5th.
Only two guys scored more touchdowns, only four guys ran for more yards ... there is no guard in the world that was a better football player.
Accumulating Pro bowls and All Pros as a guard is not the same thing as scoring more touchdowns than everybody else. It just isn't.
Apples and oranges my ass. The question is who was the best player in that draft, and the answer is LaDainian Tomilnson.
Zombo
I think Tourma is making some good counter arguments.
Perhaps if they counted "Pancake Blocks" the way they do yards and TDs etc. there could be some comparison.
Your points are well taken....but when you begin to sound like Ghoolie...well, there is a natural resistance to your position, even if I would be otherwise inclined to agree.
I think Tourma is making some good counter arguments.
Perhaps if they counted "Pancake Blocks" the way they do yards and TDs etc. there could be some comparison.
Your points are well taken....but when you begin to sound like Ghoolie...well, there is a natural resistance to your position, even if I would be otherwise inclined to agree.
Third Most Touchdowns Ever
vs.
Guard
Zombo
--pffffft.
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Interesting topic there Gip... I'll whip up my list later... but no way do I go back to '36...
One general thought... I think it's too soon to judge "greatest" for the past four to eight drafts.
You forgot me...
Hutchinson and Munchek are two of the Greatest Guards to ever play the game. They were generational talents and were easily all-time, top fivers at their position..
Are Tomlinson and Allen both top five RB's on your list?
There is an argument to be had...
The question was "Greatest", not "most valuable".
Great is a reflection of skill and physical prowess at the position played.
Value is as you say production.
Right argument, but wrong topic there Z...
Here's a couple you did not seem to have a problem with, defying your own "logic"...
Care to comment? Fouts over Hannah ought to be easy... How 'bout Monk over Munoz?
By your criteria you have to also make the case for Stenerud over Tom Mack...
I didn't look them all over, but yes Fouts over Hannah.
By my criteria there is no way in hell you make a case of Stenerud over Mack, Kickers don't belong in this discussion.
There is no way in fucking hell you score the third most TDs in NFL history but you're not the the best player in your own draft class because a guard made All-Pro every year.
I'm not talking just "most valuable" I am talking "Best".
The origninal poster cried that the Browns never draft the best player and that was what inspired this thread. Gipper put up a list of who he feels was the best player in each draft.
The best player in 2001 was Tomlinson. If they did it over Tomlinson and Drew Brees would go before Hutchinson, you know it, I know it, gipper knows it, and Hutchinson's mom knows it.
The guardiest guard of all guards will never ever be a better player than LaDainian Tomlinson. He was the best player in the league for a stretch of time, a league that included Brady and Manning. Hutchinson is an elite guard. Tomlinson is among the most eite football players ever to play the game.
Zombo
Zombo said:
I didn't look them all over, but yes Fouts over Hannah.
By my criteria there is no way in hell you make a case of Stenerud over Mack, Kickers don't belong in this discussion.
There is no way in fucking hell you score the third most TDs in NFL history but you're not the the best player in your own draft class because a guard made All-Pro every year.
I'm not talking just "most valuable" I am talking "Best".
The origninal poster cried that the Browns never draft the best player and that was what inspired this thread. Gipper put up a list of who he feels was the best player in each draft.
The best player in 2001 was Tomlinson. If they did it over Tomlinson and Drew Brees would go before Hutchinson, you know it, I know it, gipper knows it, and Hutchinson's mom knows it.
The guardiest guard of all guards will never ever be a better player than LaDainian Tomlinson. He was the best player in the league for a stretch of time, a league that included Brady and Manning. Hutchinson is an elite guard. Tomlinson is among the most eite football players ever to play the game.
Zombo
Trust me, I stuggled with that choice for the very reasons you quote. Your argument is convincing and I would have no problem going either way.
Maybe I will give that one to you....but like I said above, I had hard choices to make in other years.
In 1995 I chose the RB over the defensive linemen when I took Martin over Sapp. And I went the other direction in 1982 with Munchak over Allen....but the opposite choice there is also supportable.
As I asked before, how far do you take this agrument? Should the skill player be taken over the lineman?
Would you say that Monk should have been chosen over Munoz?
The two biggest stuggles I had were in choosing Forrest Gregg over Bart Starr, and Joe Greene over OJ Simpson. And next was Dan Dierdorf over John Riggins.
I actually may have made some of these choices because I didn't want it to seem that I was just always going to choose the "glamorous" offensive skill player, though I was tempted to do so.
One thing I did do is that I only chose between players that were in the HOF. I figured I would rely on the HOF voters to at least whittle down the options for me.
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OK Z, what about my choice of Champ Bailey over Donovan McNabb?
I think Bailey is an elite defensive player, a sure fire HOFer. Not so McNabb. He will be given consideration, but would anyone be surprised if he didn't make it?
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Zombo said:
I didn't look them all over, but yes Fouts over Hannah.
By my criteria there is no way in hell you make a case of Stenerud over Mack, Kickers don't belong in this discussion.
There is no way in fucking hell you score the third most TDs in NFL history but you're not the the best player in your own draft class because a guard made All-Pro every year.
I'm not talking just "most valuable" I am talking "Best".
The origninal poster cried that the Browns never draft the best player and that was what inspired this thread. Gipper put up a list of who he feels was the best player in each draft.
The best player in 2001 was Tomlinson. If they did it over Tomlinson and Drew Brees would go before Hutchinson, you know it, I know it, gipper knows it, and Hutchinson's mom knows it.
The guardiest guard of all guards will never ever be a better player than LaDainian Tomlinson. He was the best player in the league for a stretch of time, a league that included Brady and Manning. Hutchinson is an elite guard. Tomlinson is among the most eite football players ever to play the game.
Zombo
Trust me, I stuggled with that choice for the very reasons you quote. Your argument is convincing and I would have no problem going either way.
Maybe I will give that one to you....but like I said above, I had hard choices to make in other years.
In 1995 I chose the RB over the defensive linemen when I took Martin over Sapp. And I went the other direction in 1982 with Munchak over Allen....but the opposite choice there is also supportable.
As I asked before, how far do you take this agrument? Should the skill player be taken over the lineman?
Would you say that Monk should have been chosen over Munoz?
The two biggest stuggles I had were in choosing Forrest Gregg over Bart Starr, and Joe Greene over OJ Simpson. And next was Dan Dierdorf over John Riggins.
I actually may have made some of these choices because I didn't want it to seem that I was just always going to choose the "glamorous" offensive skill player, though I was tempted to do so.
One thing I did do is that I only chose between players that were in the HOF. I figured I would rely on the HOF voters to at least whittle down the options for me.
Trust me, I stuggled with that choice for the very reasons you quote. Your argument is convincing and I would have no problem going either way.
Maybe I will give that one to you....but like I said above, I had hard choices to make in other years.
In 1995 I chose the RB over the defensive linemen when I took Martin over Sapp. And I went the other direction in 1982 with Munchak over Allen....but the opposite choice there is also supportable.
As I asked before, how far do you take this agrument? Should the skill player be taken over the lineman?
Would you say that Monk should have been chosen over Munoz?
The two biggest stuggles I had were in choosing Forrest Gregg over Bart Starr, and Joe Greene over OJ Simpson. And next was Dan Dierdorf over John Riggins.
I actually may have made some of these choices because I didn't want it to seem that I was just always going to choose the "glamorous" offensive skill player, though I was tempted to do so.
One thing I did do is that I only chose between players that were in the HOF. I figured I would rely on the HOF voters to at least whittle down the options for me.
I understand, you actually did a great job, I just think Tomlinson's greatness gets overlooked sometimes. All I know is that I worried to death when we had to face Tomilinson but never feared having to go up against Hutchinson.
In reality, maybe a sliding scale needs to be developed. Whereas most positions are graded on a "10", guards can only get a 9, tackles can go to 9.5. running backs can go to 10.5, QBs to 11.
So, on my scale, Sapp is a 10 out of 10 and Martin is a 10 out of 10.5
Forrest Gregg gets a 9.5, the best score he can get, but Bart Starr gets a 10 out of 11 and trumps him
Joe Greene gets a 10 out of 10, but O.J. gets a 10.5 out of 10.5
Dierdorf gets the highest score a guard can get (although he played some tackle too) at 9, while I'll give Riggins a 9.5 out of 10.5 on the RB scale
And Hutchinson gets a full 9 on the guard scale, but Tomlinson gets a 10.5 on the RB scale.
Just playing around ... it's all relative.
Zombo
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OK Z, what about my choice of Champ Bailey over Donovan McNabb?
I think Bailey is an elite defensive player, a sure fire HOFer. Not so McNabb. He will be given consideration, but would anyone be surprised if he didn't make it?
OK Z, what about my choice of Champ Bailey over Donovan McNabb?
I think Bailey is an elite defensive player, a sure fire HOFer. Not so McNabb. He will be given consideration, but would anyone be surprised if he didn't make it?
I will give Bailey 10 of 10 as a Corner and McNabb a 9 out off 11 as a QB. Maybe a 8.5
Zombo
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I think Tourma is making some good counter arguments.
Perhaps if they counted "Pancake Blocks" the way they do yards and TDs etc. there could be some comparison.
Your points are well taken....but when you begin to sound like Ghoolie...well, there is a natural resistance to your position, even if I would be otherwise inclined to agree.
Third Most Touchdowns Ever
vs.
Guard
Zombo
--pffffft.
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Derrick Brooks was the best player in his draft.
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