Spot Checks
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@the-cysko-kid said:
When was the last time a gang member with an illegal tec-9 opened fire on a bunch of random people at a mall or movie theater or school?
I am dismissive of this arguement because it deserves to be dismissed as irrelevant to the current cause of outrage. If there weren't massacres happening all the time we wouldn't even be talking about this.
A gang member shooting another gang member belongs in with cal's arguement about sword deaths. Does it happen? Sure all the time, but you won't solve murder.
What you're trying to solve is the trend of massacre/suicides which are almost always committed with legally registered firearms.
So someone shows up at your house at 2 PM on a Monday for a random check. You say, just a minute please, I have to get dressed. Run and lock up your gun and answer the door. Or, look out the peephole and see some dude standing there. Who is it? 'inspector Cycso, Cleveland Gun Enforcement Bureau". Can I see your ID card? Show's it. Okay, just a minute please, runs and locks up gun. And answers door. Agent Cysco says "what took you so long to answer your door? You, "none of your fucking business". See what I mean? This is an unworkable plan. Not to mention that you would have to hire people to do it. Most cities are already strapped for cash as it is. And it is in my opinion, a violation of your rights of privacy in your home. A car is traveling throughout the city, on streets. A home is not.
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Other thoughts as to why this is a terrible idea:
You say it's a good use of police time? Maybe if you don't live in a major city where crime is a big issue. I'd rather the cops be out there on patrols. If you're gonna get killed by some gangbanger with a Tec 9, I would bet that his gun isn't registered. Over half of all gun crimes are from unregistered weapons, so this is only going to punish the law-abiding citizens. You can't have only gun owners submit to spot checks, it doesn't make sense given the number of unregistered gun crimes, it's going to have to be everyone or no one. I side with spot checks for no one. And again, I ask, what exactly are they going to be checking for?
Police? It's a clear cut position for a city inspector, just like the building inspector, or fire inspector. There's already a precedent for home inspections for everything from structural integrity to child welfare. It's not impeding on anyone's rights.
Police? It's a clear cut position for a city inspector, just like the building inspector, or fire inspector. There's already a precedent for home inspections for everything from structural integrity to child welfare. It's not impeding on anyone's rights.
Are you familiar with the Fourth Amendment?
Diehard is spot on when he's saying there's a difference between being out on a public street in a car and being in the privacy of your own home. What you want to implement would put the NRA and the ALCU on the same side, which means it's not even plausible to enact something like this.
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@the-cysko-kid said:
When was the last time a gang member with an illegal tec-9 opened fire on a bunch of random people at a mall or movie theater or school?
I am dismissive of this arguement because it deserves to be dismissed as irrelevant to the current cause of outrage. If there weren't massacres happening all the time we wouldn't even be talking about this.
A gang member shooting another gang member belongs in with cal's arguement about sword deaths. Does it happen? Sure all the time, but you won't solve murder.
What you're trying to solve is the trend of massacre/suicides which are almost always committed with legally registered firearms.
So someone shows up at your house at 2 PM on a Monday for a random check. You say, just a minute please, I have to get dressed. Run and lock up your gun and answer the door. Or, look out the peephole and see some dude standing there. Who is it? 'inspector Cycso, Cleveland Gun Enforcement Bureau". Can I see your ID card? Show's it. Okay, just a minute please, runs and locks up gun. And answers door. Agent Cysco says "what took you so long to answer your door? You, "none of your fucking business". See what I mean? This is an unworkable plan. Not to mention that you would have to hire people to do it. Most cities are already strapped for cash as it is. And it is in my opinion, a violation of your rights of privacy in your home. A car is traveling throughout the city, on streets. A home is not.
So someone shows up at your house at 2 PM on a Monday for a random check. You say, just a minute please, I have to get dressed. Run and lock up your gun and answer the door. Or, look out the peephole and see some dude standing there. Who is it? 'inspector Cycso, Cleveland Gun Enforcement Bureau". Can I see your ID card? Show's it. Okay, just a minute please, runs and locks up gun. And answers door. Agent Cysco says "what took you so long to answer your door? You, "none of your fucking business". See what I mean? This is an unworkable plan. Not to mention that you would have to hire people to do it. Most cities are already strapped for cash as it is. And it is in my opinion, a violation of your rights of privacy in your home. A car is traveling throughout the city, on streets. A home is not.
So...who's going to pay for mental health reform? That's your guys' position isn't it? You're missing the point anyway. No inspector shows up unscheduled. It's only making sure there IS a safe storage facility and not being kept in the closet. Too many people don't even own a gun safe.
So what your saying is you have rights but no responsibilities?
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Police? It's a clear cut position for a city inspector, just like the building inspector, or fire inspector. There's already a precedent for home inspections for everything from structural integrity to child welfare. It's not impeding on anyone's rights.
Are you familiar with the Fourth Amendment?
Diehard is spot on when he's saying there's a difference between being out on a public street in a car and being in the privacy of your own home. What you want to implement would put the NRA and the ALCU on the same side, which means it's not even plausible to enact something like this.
Are you familiar with the Fourth Amendment?
Diehard is spot on when he's saying there's a difference between being out on a public street in a car and being in the privacy of your own home. What you want to implement would put the NRA and the ALCU on the same side, which means it's not even plausible to enact something like this.
how is the city building inspector violating your Fourth Amendment rights? it's literally the exact same thing.
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Are you familiar with the Fourth Amendment?
Diehard is spot on when he's saying there's a difference between being out on a public street in a car and being in the privacy of your own home. What you want to implement would put the NRA and the ALCU on the same side, which means it's not even plausible to enact something like this.
how is the city building inspector violating your Fourth Amendment rights? it's literally the exact same thing.
how is the city building inspector violating your Fourth Amendment rights? it's literally the exact same thing.
How so? Again, you've never defined exactly what they're looking for and what procedures are to be taken if violations are found (all the while ignoring homes which may have unregistered guns, which by the way, account for over half of all gun crimes).
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There's no difference between an inspector checking your home for structural integrity, an inspector checking your home for fire compliance, and an inspector checking your home for firearms compliance.
There's no difference between an inspector checking your home for structural integrity, an inspector checking your home for fire compliance, and an inspector checking your home for firearms compliance.
I am sorry, there is.
Let's have drug inspection spot checks. Drugs kill people.
Checks can't be made as you suggest. A process has to be followed. First a complaint has to be made with the city, then notifying the property owner they need to make changes to noticeable problems. The fire marshall can't just drive down the street and decide to inspect a private residence with no obvious problems.
You guys are out of your fucking minds. You don't own guns, cool. You'd actually be good with a few cops showing up at you door and let them start rooting around in your drawers?
Unbelievable....and I mean that literally, you wouldn't allow that.
Please tell me I am missing something from a previous post or thread and not commenting on the true intent of the post.
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There's no difference between an inspector checking your home for structural integrity, an inspector checking your home for fire compliance, and an inspector checking your home for firearms compliance.
I am sorry, there is.
Let's have drug inspection spot checks. Drugs kill people.
Checks can't be made as you suggest. A process has to be followed. First a complaint has to be made with the city, then notifying the property owner they need to make changes to noticeable problems. The fire marshall can't just drive down the street and decide to inspect a private residence with no obvious problems.
You guys are out of your fucking minds. You don't own guns, cool. You'd actually be good with a few cops showing up at you door and let them start rooting around in your drawers?
Unbelievable....and I mean that literally, you wouldn't allow that.
Please tell me I am missing something from a previous post or thread and not commenting on the true intent of the post.
I am sorry, there is.
Let's have drug inspection spot checks. Drugs kill people.
Checks can't be made as you suggest. A process has to be followed. First a complaint has to be made with the city, then notifying the property owner they need to make changes to noticeable problems. The fire marshall can't just drive down the street and decide to inspect a private residence with no obvious problems.
You guys are out of your fucking minds. You don't own guns, cool. You'd actually be good with a few cops showing up at you door and let them start rooting around in your drawers?
Unbelievable....and I mean that literally, you wouldn't allow that.
steve is the one mentioning random checks I have already mentioned that no inspector shows up unscheduled so I will just give you a pass for not having read that far into the argument
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
you guys obviously have paranoid fantasies about the police breaking into your house in search in your underwear drawer when in fact inspectors only look for what is within the letter of the law.
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
This idea doesn't even pass a simple cost/benefit analysis, so why don't we just stop talking about it?
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This idea doesn't even pass a simple cost/benefit analysis, so why don't we just stop talking about it?
This idea doesn't even pass a simple cost/benefit analysis, so why don't we just stop talking about it?
yes let's talk about reforming mental health again who's going to pay for that exactly? please remind me, and don't say Republicans because we know that is not true.
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I am sorry, there is.
Let's have drug inspection spot checks. Drugs kill people.
Checks can't be made as you suggest. A process has to be followed. First a complaint has to be made with the city, then notifying the property owner they need to make changes to noticeable problems. The fire marshall can't just drive down the street and decide to inspect a private residence with no obvious problems.
You guys are out of your fucking minds. You don't own guns, cool. You'd actually be good with a few cops showing up at you door and let them start rooting around in your drawers?
Unbelievable....and I mean that literally, you wouldn't allow that.
steve is the one mentioning random checks I have already mentioned that no inspector shows up unscheduled so I will just give you a pass for not having read that far into the argument
steve is the one mentioning random checks I have already mentioned that no inspector shows up unscheduled so I will just give you a pass for not having read that far into the argument
I am still at a loss here....are we talking about random inspections or just registered gun owners?? Forgive me joining the debate late. I saw this thread and read it.
You can't single out gun owners as a means of intimidation, which is exactly the method suggested.
It would do no good to send notice to unregistered gun owners. It wouldn't be very hard to hide them somewhere before next Tuesdays meeting.
I mentioned this earlier but nobody had comment, so I'll say it again: The problem is the guns. It's the people. We have to fix that.
Over the generations we have become brainwashed to some extent about violence, or dulled to it's reality.
Guns have always been available, but gun violence didn't really start to take off in a common way until maybe the late 50's, early 60's.
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Republicans come out against any sort of gun control not just banning of guns but anything related to guns and point the finger instead at mental health but they are in no way willing to pay for mental health reform so what is thier solution? Nothing? Because that seems like a terrible solution to me
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you guys obviously have paranoid fantasies about the police breaking into your house in search in your underwear drawer when in fact inspectors only look for what is within the letter of the law.
you guys obviously have paranoid fantasies about the police breaking into your house in search in your underwear drawer when in fact inspectors only look for what is within the letter of the law.
The only fantasy is you thinking guns are the problem and eliminating them is going to keep you safer.
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you guys obviously have paranoid fantasies about the police breaking into your house in search in your underwear drawer when in fact inspectors only look for what is within the letter of the law.
The only fantasy is you thinking guns are the problem and eliminating them is going to keep you safer.
The only fantasy is you thinking guns are the problem and eliminating them is going to keep you safer.
Again (and again) nobody is talking about eliminating them. This is but one of many small measures that could be taken to lessen gun deaths.
Just because half of gun violence concerns illegal weapons doesn't mean we should forget about the other half.
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The only fantasy is you thinking guns are the problem and eliminating them is going to keep you safer.
Again (and again) nobody is talking about eliminating them. This is but one of many small measures that could be taken to lessen gun deaths.
Just because half of gun violence concerns illegal weapons doesn't mean we should forget about the other half.
Again (and again) nobody is talking about eliminating them. This is but one of many small measures that could be taken to lessen gun deaths.
Just because half of gun violence concerns illegal weapons doesn't mean we should forget about the other half.
Actually, it's more like 60-80 percent of all gun crimes.
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Gun inspectors? LOL
For cryin out loud.
1. Fire inspectors don't inspect HOMES, they inspect businesses. Home inspectors are hired to inspect for purchasing a used home, or a new home.
As it is, a home being built, is on schedule, inspected to comply with buidling regs. That is before the home is owned by the future owner.
2. Stopping a car for "weaving" ??? There is no Constitutional guarantee of car ownership, or driving privacy.
3. The safety and security of HOMES is guaranteed to be safe from random gov intrusion. I"m sure that nutjob Bloopberg of NY would have
:random inspections" of homes for sugar, guns, salt, butter.....it's all bs.
4. Isn't that profiling, to go after gun owners for special harrassment?
5. Trust me, and I"m not the only one who knows this.... a "scheduled random check" is dumb- you can rely on people all of a sudden locking up their gun(s)
and complying during the check. Like Inspector General inspections. Scheduled, and all of a sudden in the military, the enlisted mess hall looks beautiful,
....really nice table cloths, place settings, flowers, fancy napkins, you betcha. Day After Inspection? Gone like a freight train. LOL. Back to normal.
Won't work, is a silly idea.
6. I don't have time for six. Gotta run....
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Cal and the Slippery Slope are bros
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Gun inspectors? LOL
For cryin out loud.
1. Fire inspectors don't inspect HOMES, they inspect businesses. Home inspectors are hired to inspect for purchasing a used home, or a new home.
As it is, a home being built, is on schedule, inspected to comply with buidling regs. That is before the home is owned by the future owner.
2. Stopping a car for "weaving" ??? There is no Constitutional guarantee of car ownership, or driving privacy.
3. The safety and security of HOMES is guaranteed to be safe from random gov intrusion. I"m sure that nutjob Bloopberg of NY would have
:random inspections" of homes for sugar, guns, salt, butter.....it's all bs.
4. Isn't that profiling, to go after gun owners for special harrassment?
5. Trust me, and I"m not the only one who knows this.... a "scheduled random check" is dumb- you can rely on people all of a sudden locking up their gun(s)
and complying during the check. Like Inspector General inspections. Scheduled, and all of a sudden in the military, the enlisted mess hall looks beautiful,
....really nice table cloths, place settings, flowers, fancy napkins, you betcha. Day After Inspection? Gone like a freight train. LOL. Back to normal.
Won't work, is a silly idea.
6. I don't have time for six. Gotta run....
Gun inspectors? LOL
For cryin out loud.
1. Fire inspectors don't inspect HOMES, they inspect businesses. Home inspectors are hired to inspect for purchasing a used home, or a new home.
As it is, a home being built, is on schedule, inspected to comply with buidling regs. That is before the home is owned by the future owner.
2. Stopping a car for "weaving" ??? There is no Constitutional guarantee of car ownership, or driving privacy.
3. The safety and security of HOMES is guaranteed to be safe from random gov intrusion. I"m sure that nutjob Bloopberg of NY would have
:random inspections" of homes for sugar, guns, salt, butter.....it's all bs.
4. Isn't that profiling, to go after gun owners for special harrassment?
5. Trust me, and I"m not the only one who knows this.... a "scheduled random check" is dumb- you can rely on people all of a sudden locking up their gun(s)
and complying during the check. Like Inspector General inspections. Scheduled, and all of a sudden in the military, the enlisted mess hall looks beautiful,
....really nice table cloths, place settings, flowers, fancy napkins, you betcha. Day After Inspection? Gone like a freight train. LOL. Back to normal.
Won't work, is a silly idea.
6. I don't have time for six. Gotta run....
Everything that concerns gun control is a stupid idea to you, but no one has answered my simple question: who is going to pay for mental health reform? Who?
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
It's such an overly broad, unworkable, idea that its no surprise that scum like Wayne lapierre have seized on it. It can never be implemented and has no hope of working. That is why the nra and other human excrement keep pushing it. Because seizing on mental health is the same as shrugging your shoulders and saying "gee whiz, I guess we can't do nothin, but its all ok longs I gots sum guns!"
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Gun inspectors? LOL
For cryin out loud.
1. Fire inspectors don't inspect HOMES, they inspect businesses. Home inspectors are hired to inspect for purchasing a used home, or a new home.
As it is, a home being built, is on schedule, inspected to comply with buidling regs. That is before the home is owned by the future owner.
2. Stopping a car for "weaving" ??? There is no Constitutional guarantee of car ownership, or driving privacy.
3. The safety and security of HOMES is guaranteed to be safe from random gov intrusion. I"m sure that nutjob Bloopberg of NY would have
:random inspections" of homes for sugar, guns, salt, butter.....it's all bs.
4. Isn't that profiling, to go after gun owners for special harrassment?
5. Trust me, and I"m not the only one who knows this.... a "scheduled random check" is dumb- you can rely on people all of a sudden locking up their gun(s)
and complying during the check. Like Inspector General inspections. Scheduled, and all of a sudden in the military, the enlisted mess hall looks beautiful,
....really nice table cloths, place settings, flowers, fancy napkins, you betcha. Day After Inspection? Gone like a freight train. LOL. Back to normal.
Won't work, is a silly idea.
6. I don't have time for six. Gotta run....
Everything that concerns gun control is a stupid idea to you, but no one has answered my simple question: who is going to pay for mental health reform? Who?
Everything that concerns gun control is a stupid idea to you, but no one has answered my simple question: who is going to pay for mental health reform? Who?
The same people that would pay for this. I don't understand how the government divvies up the money, and they seem to be able to create it out of thin air. Balancing the budget doesn't concern me at all when discussing these (or any) solutions. Therefore, I'd argue that the costs for overhauls of each proposal would be similar. The benefits of them couldn't be further from each other.
What are the benefits of a spot check? A bunch of people who are greatly inconvenienced and giving up a constitutionally guaranteed liberty (see the fourth amendment). The only people who will have to go through this hassle are those who legally purchased guns (even though we know that the vast majority of gun crimes are from illegal guns). You're saying it's a privilege to own a gun, that's fine, but if you legally own a gun, you're not seeing these checks as a privilege, you're seeing them as a punishment for following the law. Meanwhile, the money spent conducting spot checks on law-abiding citizens could rather be spent on trying to get illegal guns off the street (which your solution to the problem ignores).
The benefits of a mental health system overhaul? Firstly, you're not challenging any of the constitution by putting money into healthcare, unlike spot checks (which as I stated earlier would be opposed by the NRA AND the ACLU). How many violent crimes is it going to stop? Who knows. But what it will do is help reduce the stigma of mental illnesses such as depression (which 20% of Americans have!), and make treatment more available for those who are afflicted.
My point is, you don't know the effect either proposal will have on gun crimes, but you can take a look at what else will change. A spot check system would just be a huge inconvenience for people who follow the law and a surrender of constitutional rights. At least with a mental health overhaul, more people will be able to get the treatment they need for mental illness.
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