Psl's No Longer Required At Stadium
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I don't like the idea of personal seat licenses, but once enacted I don't think the teams can legally and/or arbitrarily do away with them. A personal seat license has monetary value and the purchaser then should have the right to sell that license (per team/league rules/stipulations) in the future. I think all Browns season ticket holders should file a class-action lawsuit against the team's owner to either reinstate the personnel seat license or to recieve compensation for the careless destruction of personal equity.
Endymion said:
I don't like the idea of personal seat licenses, but once enacted I don't think the teams can legally and/or arbitrarily do away with them. A personal seat license has monetary value and the purchaser then should have the right to sell that license (per team/league rules/stipulations) in the future. I think all Browns season ticket holders should file a class-action lawsuit against the team's owner to either reinstate the personnel seat license or to recieve compensation for the careless destruction of personal equity.
OK....time out here. I am pissed, but not because of the PSL deal from a value standpoint. My issue is with moving my seats.
I know what I am talking about here.....there is no pending lawsuit, or possibility of one....that is all very clearly spelled out in the PSL agreement we all signed. I may be one of the movers of this thread, but not in this direction.
There is nothing there and foolish to seek that as a option. It isn't a option.
Just end that discussion now.
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I'm pretty pissed off these new PSL changes. First of all, in typical clusterfuck fashion from our Browns front office, there isn't really a concrete plan to read to even know where us PSL holders currently stand. Can we still transfer the PSL's, and who exactly would even want to purchase a PSL from any of us at this point? I had a buyer for two of my seats just last week. They contacted me about them, they were very interested in them and I was contemplating selling ... Today? Today neither the prospect Buyer nor myself have any idea if the PSL even still exist to sell, or if it would be of anyone's advantage to even attempt to transfer at this point.
The Browns either have some fast explaining to do or I see lawsuits coming from every direction.
I bought in one section in 1999, I bought-out and transferred a second pair of PSL's a few years later. I sold a pair a few years after that, I relocated my seats to a higher priced section around 2008. The fucking Browns ONLY gave me what I paid for my PSL's in 1999 toward the INFLATED price of the new PSL in 2008 ... they basically made additional money off of me at a price adjusted to inflation/investment. I sit on those tickets and now I'm told they have zero value. They redeemed 'X' amount of money from me in 1999, then another profit from me at then current (higher) prices in 2008, yet a few more years down the line they take their ball and go home.
Sorry, the PSL is a "CONTRACT" between myself and the Browns. A 'contract' can not be broken by ONE single party, it takes two to tango.
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Not surprising this fucking disgrace of an organization is shoving its fist just a little bit further up the asses of all the poor bastards that have actually shelled out money since 99 to watch this piece of shit team bumble around on the field like a bunch of fucking clowns and just generally embarrass the shit out of the city. I think the only decent thing to do, if they won't refund a percentage of the PSL, is to offer one year only steep discounts to all former PSL owners. Throw some incentives in, do something. After our 40 year old second year QB throws his first 20 or 30 passes to the opposing teams it'll be hard enough to get people to plunk down their cash to sit outside in the fucking cold in Ohio and drink shitty watered down beer.
I feel for you PSL owners. It's bullshit
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I disagree with you 100%. You believed your PSL's were worth nothing because the Browns were losing and you could not sell them. You didn't want to keep paying for the tickets each year so you gave them away. Ok that is your decision. Now let's say that the Browns win the division this very year and go to the playoffs....Demand goes up and people want in!!!! The only way they can get in is to buy a PSL. If you still had yours you could now sell them (thus they would have value). But now becuase of the rule change they would have less value because people can just choose to sit elsewhere without having to buy a PSL.
While you and others like to say they have no value due to legal phrasing, they did indeed have a market value, when the market was up. Just like stock. Nobody wants to buy it while it is going down. But once it starts to soar upward they buy in. except now when they buy in they get to buy their stock with no per trade fee like i had to buy mine. Not a perfect example but you understand I am sure.
If the Stadium fills this year (as I hope and many on this Board fear) and the team is good, then next year demand may exceed supply. That is what we all need for value to come back. The fact that my licenses have no value has nothing to do with legal phrasing. It has everything to do with supply and demand. This new announcement provides reason for hope (but not much). I'm glad they did this.
If the Stadium fills this year (as I hope and many on this Board fear) and the team is good, then next year demand may exceed supply.
Demand for what? Seats in the Cleveland cold to watch a team who isn't in playoff contention get their asses kicked?
In terms of organizational shittyness, the Jets stand alone, but we're first in their rearview mirror
A goddamn Browns' seat isn't worth the shitty chinese plastic its made out of
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If true ... i feel they should let current season ticket holders move to upgraded sections and not have to pay the psl difference.
Season ticket, what are your thoughts?
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I'm kinda in the same frame of mind as Ballpeen. When I got the PSLs I just assumed that I would pass on the tickets to one of my kids when I couldn't attend games anymore. I have thought of selling my PSLs in the past but I always talked myself down off that ledge. However, the fact that I did not sell them does not equate to them having no value. Until now. The Browns hold all the cards here, unfortunately. Unless virtually all the PSL holders could get together and somehow embarass them in a national public forum, which will never happen, this idiotic decision will stand because we have virtually no legal rights that I can see.
If they follow through with the no PSL decision what they should do is get rid of all PSLs period. Of course, then they would have to accomodate the current PSL holders in some way or there would be a bunch of lawsuits, meritless or not. Perhaps rebating back a prorated amount of what the last stated value of the PSL? A special catered PSL holders only Draft party at the stadium? Free game day food for every year you've had the seats? A hand job? Something. Anything.
Am I pissed? You bet. But I learned a long, long time ago that life is very seldom fair. But I also was taught that loyalty should be rewarded if possible. Apparently, Joe Banner and Uncle Jimmy never learned that last lesson. I won't hold a grudge here. But I won't forget either.
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I held 4 really good seats at the old stadium, when the Lerner's decided to have PSL's and it was nobody forcing that issue except a greedy billionaire wanting to bleed his current fan base of more money, I had to opt out of my seats. THANK YOU JH for removing that barrier as I have rejoined the ranks of season ticket holders.
I feel for the people that paid the price but you had the choice as I did.
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Bought 3 psl's in 1999 for $1800 and sold them a few years ago on this site for $2100. Glad I got a nice return on my INVESTMENT yes Ballpeen, INVESTMENT. Feel sorry for you guys that are getting bent over by the Browns now. I think this is a bad move on the teams part. If there was not a financial obligation to buy season tickets or lose your PSL INVESTMENT the stadium would have been empty long ago after the 10th losing season or so. By saying yours PSL's are valueless there is no incentive to keep buying tickets unless they improve the product (which is what I have been waiting for for 14 years).
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In terms of PSLs, the owner shouldn't just render them worthless to increase attendance. In order to keep lawsuits to a minimum, the Brown's should do the following:
Unlicensed Seats:
1) Season tickets awarded by lottery. No garauntee you will get them next year and no choice of seating awarded. Option to buy a seat license for your seat at end of the season.
2) Unlicensed ticket holders will pay face value for the ticket.
Licensed Seats:
1) Can select/upgrade choice of seats. (Extra charges may apply).
2) Get discounted value of ticket(s), say 10 or 15% off face value.
3) Can sell/trade/barter your license at designated times during the year. Failure to buy season tickets results in forfieture of license. (As far as I know this has already been in effect).
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People with PSL's can still recoup their psl money if they find a buyer willing to pay the price. Money is lost only if you let it go.
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I'm 300% sure there's no lawsuit against what the browns are doing currently. What you all think is right as customers and the legality are clearly two different things not understood by some here.
PSLs gave you all the right to own season tickets, that's it. You can transfer that right but the team has the same right to not require them. I literally was with my brother two weeks ago in charlotte when they talked about the psl. The guy said simply the psl is an investment and can change at any time. You all made investments that now didnt pan out. It's life, and I don't fault the browns one bit for doing something to raise ticket sales. You all can huff and puff at me but lets face it: you're going to keep getting those season tickets. It's not that I don't understand your frustrations but its pretty cut and dry to me. The only thing the browns clearly didnt do well was communicate the change
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I'm 300% sure there's no lawsuit against what the browns are doing currently. What you all think is right as customers and the legality are clearly two different things not understood by some here.
PSLs gave you all the right to own season tickets, that's it. You can transfer that right but the team has the same right to not require them. I literally was with my brother two weeks ago in charlotte when they talked about the psl. The guy said simply the psl is an investment and can change at any time. You all made investments that now didnt pan out. It's life, and I don't fault the browns one bit for doing something to raise ticket sales. You all can huff and puff at me but lets face it: you're going to keep getting those season tickets. It's not that I don't understand your frustrations but its pretty cut and dry to me. The only thing the browns clearly didnt do well was communicate the change
PSLs gave you all the right to own season tickets, that's it. You can transfer that right but the team has the same right to not require them. I literally was with my brother two weeks ago in charlotte when they talked about the psl. The guy said simply the psl is an investment and can change at any time.
Wrong. The investment value you discussed is completely separate from the contracted value with the customer. Sports teams sold the idea of PSLs advertising the potential for future returns on investment. After 15 years of losing you may not be able sell the PSL you purchased (say for $2,000) to another customer at the same value. Fans would be looking for a discount (say $1,000) based upon poor on the field performance. However, if the Browns suddenly become Super Bowl contenders, the value of that license will increase as fans gooble up the remaining MSRP PSL seats and supply becomes limited. That is investment risk.
Contractually, the Browns stated that in order to buy seats you had to purchase a PSL. Many fans were forced to give up their seats because they could not afford the PSLs associated with them. Fans who were forced to give up their seats due to a PSL, now have a legal basis to sue the team now that PSLs are no longer a requirement. Secondly, fans that invested in a PSL, believed that their contract was required to purchase seats and that the PSLs would have future value. Therefore, those fans now have a legal basis to sue the team, because Mr. Banner arbitrarily rendered their PSLs worthless and that PSLs can probably be shown to be coersionary.
For example, if you bought stocks with the idea of collecting dividends and a company decided your stocks would no longer pay dividends, but these new stocks (which cost less than market value) would pay dividends, then that company could be liable for damages. The company could offer new stocks at a lower market price and thereby drive down the value of your stock, but they can't provide a preferential treatment or arbitrarily render your stocks worthless. Which is, in effect, what the Browns are currently doing. Until the new ticket sales actually go into effect no lawsuits can be filed. It takes and aggreived party and dollar signs attractive to a lawyer to move any lawsuit forward.
People that bought PSLs for 2012 have the best shot at getting those expenses refunded. They can probably show they were coersed into purchasing PSLs that by a team that was planning to render them worthless. You also have basic bait and switch laws that can be used in addition to contractual coersion laws. (For coersion you can read about a similiar circumstance a NY court rendered recently in favor of a woman who signed a prenuptual agreement with her rich husband 4 days prior to their scheduled wedding date. In other words, the court threw out the prenuptual contractual arrangement because of coersion due to the proximity of her wedding date/expenses already made for the wedding because she didn't have the proper information available to make an informed decision about the agreement).
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PSLs gave you all the right to own season tickets, that's it. You can transfer that right but the team has the same right to not require them. I literally was with my brother two weeks ago in charlotte when they talked about the psl. The guy said simply the psl is an investment and can change at any time.
Wrong. The investment value you discussed is completely separate from the contracted value with the customer. Sports teams sold the idea of PSLs advertising the potential for future returns on investment. After 15 years of losing you may not be able sell the PSL you purchased (say for $2,000) to another customer at the same value. Fans would be looking for a discount (say $1,000) based upon poor on the field performance. However, if the Browns suddenly become Super Bowl contenders, the value of that license will increase as fans gooble up the remaining MSRP PSL seats and supply becomes limited. That is investment risk.
Contractually, the Browns stated that in order to buy seats you had to purchase a PSL. Many fans were forced to give up their seats because they could not afford the PSLs associated with them. Fans who were forced to give up their seats due to a PSL, now have a legal basis to sue the team now that PSLs are no longer a requirement. Secondly, fans that invested in a PSL, believed that their contract was required to purchase seats and that the PSLs would have future value. Therefore, those fans now have a legal basis to sue the team, because Mr. Banner arbitrarily rendered their PSLs worthless and that PSLs can probably be shown to be coersionary.
For example, if you bought stocks with the idea of collecting dividends and a company decided your stocks would no longer pay dividends, but these new stocks (which cost less than market value) would pay dividends, then that company could be liable for damages. The company could offer new stocks at a lower market price and thereby drive down the value of your stock, but they can't provide a preferential treatment or arbitrarily render your stocks worthless. Which is, in effect, what the Browns are currently doing. Until the new ticket sales actually go into effect no lawsuits can be filed. It takes and aggreived party and dollar signs attractive to a lawyer to move any lawsuit forward.
People that bought PSLs for 2012 have the best shot at getting those expenses refunded. They can probably show they were coersed into purchasing PSLs that by a team that was planning to render them worthless. You also have basic bait and switch laws that can be used in addition to contractual coersion laws. (For coersion you can read about a similiar circumstance a NY court rendered recently in favor of a woman who signed a prenuptual agreement with her rich husband 4 days prior to their scheduled wedding date. In other words, the court threw out the prenuptual contractual arrangement because of coersion due to the proximity of her wedding date/expenses already made for the wedding because she didn't have the proper information available to make an informed decision about the agreement).
Endymion said:
Wrong. The investment value you discussed is completely separate from the contracted value with the customer. Sports teams sold the idea of PSLs advertising the potential for future returns on investment. After 15 years of losing you may not be able sell the PSL you purchased (say for $2,000) to another customer at the same value. Fans would be looking for a discount (say $1,000) based upon poor on the field performance. However, if the Browns suddenly become Super Bowl contenders, the value of that license will increase as fans gooble up the remaining MSRP PSL seats and supply becomes limited. That is investment risk.
Contractually, the Browns stated that in order to buy seats you had to purchase a PSL. Many fans were forced to give up their seats because they could not afford the PSLs associated with them. Fans who were forced to give up their seats due to a PSL, now have a legal basis to sue the team now that PSLs are no longer a requirement. Secondly, fans that invested in a PSL, believed that their contract was required to purchase seats and that the PSLs would have future value. Therefore, those fans now have a legal basis to sue the team, because Mr. Banner arbitrarily rendered their PSLs worthless and that PSLs can probably be shown to be coersionary.
For example, if you bought stocks with the idea of collecting dividends and a company decided your stocks would no longer pay dividends, but these new stocks (which cost less than market value) would pay dividends, then that company could be liable for damages. The company could offer new stocks at a lower market price and thereby drive down the value of your stock, but they can't provide a preferential treatment or arbitrarily render your stocks worthless. Which is, in effect, what the Browns are currently doing. Until the new ticket sales actually go into effect no lawsuits can be filed. It takes and aggreived party and dollar signs attractive to a lawyer to move any lawsuit forward.
Look, I typically don't play the "I'm smart look at me" game but I really need to respond to your ignorance to not get people riled up. I was holding back saying this because I'm not one to start throwing names around, but it's important to telling you why you're wrong. My girlfriend's father works for McDondald Hopkins law firm based out of Cleveland as a chief partner in South Florida. He was personally responsible for securing season tickets for the Browns, Dolphins, Marlins, Cavs, Heat and Indians for the firm. He personally met Lerner before the sell along with Stephen Ross, owner of the Dolphins. I was sitting with him right around when this news broke and I asked him about the legal ramifications of not requiring PSL's as I was very ignorant, like you, to the process. He told me legally that PSL's are considered investments as rights to own. That was the contractual agreement every PSL owner agreed to. The risk of buying a PSL meant they could be worth triple the money invested or nothing at all. For any type of coercion to take place there would have to be criminal amounts of pressure put on a buyer to buy the tickets. If you believe that a judge would believe that well I'm not sure what to tell you. PSL values aren't worthless as a result of this. The vast majority of PSL owners in premium uppers and lowers will still be able to move their seats at a premium price once the team preforms well.
I know what you said sounds good in your head, but I can assure you what the Browns are doing is completely legal. Ownership changed in the middle of the season, there was no way in good faith the browns organization could have known about a possible PSL change. You can argue back with me if you want, but I'm right here. Comparing collusion of preferred stock holdings to this is a logical fallacy at best and is totally irrelevant.
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