Losses Vs. Gains Comparison

[Vagitron]

@the-gipper said:

All of that about free agency is just your (fucking stupid) opinion.

And I know more about football in my pinky than you will ever know in your short, miserable life.

The Browns have lost a lot of games......that is THE full extent of what you know about football outside of some picayune facts about your team....that yes, no one else cares about.

You have no clue as to why they have lost those games. You are actually clueless as to why the Steelers have won many.

But, here is a fact that I know that you delude yourself is not true: The Steelers as currently constituted are not a very good team.

Their talent in most areas is mediocre. The talented players they have are long in the tooth and on the downside of their careers. (Polamalu; old. BR...not quite the same after so many injuries) You have what you think are some good young players....but you think they are good merely because they say Pittsburgh Steelers on their jersey. The likes of DeCastro and Jarvis Jones and others might be good prospects.....but there is no assurance of that. They might be Ariel Castro and Jerry Jones. They may be no better than the prospects on 31 other teams.

Hilarious Gipper, even you know you are full.of shit with the above disgruntled tirade. I know quite a lot about football and its not just restricted to my hometown crew. I have no desire to continue the above pissing match so im just going to move on like it didnt happen. Id be wasting at least an hour of my life otherwise. Im on my phone currently and briefly skimmed the post below with your grades. I stopped at the ball and bell.comparison. Ball had at least three offensive lineman drafted this year Bell had zero and still averaged 5 yards a carry. He was the michigan state offense. Also returning to your mr. Wa wa post above the Steelers are much better than mediocre. My favorite part is going to be shark thomas who really should.be a brown but that genius lombardi traded the pick.

[Vagitron]

Yo gipper you also completely ignore all the guys already on the roster before the draft as replacements for the players that are gone. How can you be a attorney and this fvcking dense? I do however know a couple absolutely brain dead litigators. You are either exactly that or just assume the people you talk to on a daily basis are brain dead themselves. I already addressed these glorious ommissions in this thread or another, of course.you havent acknowledged it.

[The Gipper]

@the-gipper said:

Finally, lets do the Bengals:

Quarterback:

Gained: Josh Johnson, John Skelton

Lost: Bruce Gradkowski

Grade: C+, Skelton is a decent upgrade from Gradkowski. Johnson a non-factor

RB/FB:

Gained: Giovani Bernard, Rex Burkhead

Lost: Brian Leonard

Grade: B... Don Giovani was 2d RB drafted....could be good....and you have to like a FB name Rex Burkhead.

Tight End:

Gained: Tyler Eifert, Alex Smith

Lost: none

Grade: B+ or A-. Bengals already had perhaps the best TE in the AFCN. They may have just drafted the second best. Bengals offense could be a bitch to contain with 2 outstanding TEs....one all pro WR (AJ Green), and a couple of really good other WRs.

Wide Receiver:

Gained: none

Lost: none

???: Marvin Jones RFA , status pending

Grade: C ...no impact

Offensive Line:

Gained: Tanner Hawkins, Reid Fragel, TJ Johnson

Lost: none

Grade: C+ or B-, they drafted for depth on the line and got it.

Defensive Line:

Gained: Margus Hunt

Lost: Pat Sims

Grade: C+, a lot of people liked Margus Hunt.

Linebacker:

Gained: Sean Porter, James Harrison

Lost: Thomas Howard, Manny Lawson, Dan Skuta

Grade: C-....I basically see this as a wash. Harrison over the hill, but will have to be useful. Will simply make up for losses of Howard and Lawson

Defensive Backs:

Gained: Shawn Williams

Lost: Jason Allen, Nate Clements, Chris Crocker

Grade: D....loss of veteran leadership.....or is it loss of over the hill (Sheldon Brown like) players? Maybe. Still, Bengals didn't bring in replacement.

[The Gipper]

@vagitron said:

Hilarious Gipper, even you know you are full.of shit with the above disgruntled tirade. I know quite a lot about football and its not just restricted to my hometown crew.

Total self serving pablum. I doubt ANYONE here agrees that you know much about football. You can't answer basic football trivia. You can't analyze the strengths and weaknesses of any other team. You can't do doodley.

Let's take a poll: Does anyone else here think that Vagitron knows quite a lot about football? Please vote.

I have no desire to continue the above pissing match so im just going ro move on like it didnt happen. Id be wasting at least an hour of my life otherwise. Im on my phone currently and briefly skimmed the post below with your grades. Is stopped at the ball and bell.comparison. Ball had at least three offensive lineman drafted this year Bell had zero and still averaged 5 yards a carry. He was the michigan state offense.

Ball had the better college career....Bell was drafted 10 slots higher.

I think Ball might be slightly better.....but, yes, it is close. Again, in your typical dumbassery, you think someone is better simply because the Steelers took him.

Both have a chance to succeed due to where they were drafted.

At most, a draw.

Also returning to your mr. Wa wa post above the Steelers are much better than mediocre.

They were 8-8 and lost a ton of talent. That is the definition of mediocrity. Only a dumbass can't see that.

My favorite part is going to be shark thomas who really should.be a brown but that genius lombardi traded the pick.

Well....maybe. (though....what you don't know Mr. Genius football guy....is that Thomas is a SS....and the Browns already have a better one in TJ Ward at SS. They needed a FS, which Thomas was not......You don't know anything except about your own team)

The only thing you truly are is the Master of the Obvious.

"The Browns have been lousy" No fucking shit Sherlock.

"Lombardi might not be very smart". You learned that from reading this forum numbnuts.

[Vagitron]

Yep it's official, this thread is mind numbing. Let's talk losses and gains in the purest sense of the terms and not talk about the guys already on the roster for those respective teams. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, the Browns are notorious for losing players and replacing them with no one only to rinse and repeat and remain in the gutter. Ray Lewis of course retired, Ellerbe and Kruger were both over paid and they cut Ayenbedejo or however you spell his last name. They also SIGNED IN FREE AGENCY ELVIS DUMERVILL! gipper you ignorant old grump. A player of course you didn't mention. Arthur Brown is going to be a beast and they still have guys like Suggs to lead. You are beyond frustrating because you either do a really, really great job of playing dumb OR you are dumb. I haven't figured it out yet.

[gftChris]

The Gipper, on 03 May 2013 - 7:13 PM, said:

Lets Compare how the Browns have done so far in the Draft and in Free Agency Compared to how what they lost in Free Agency. And tell us whether or not in your opinion the Browns did an upgrade or downgrade:

Defensive Line:

Desmond Bryant and Armonty Bryant replacing:

Frostee Rucker and Juqua Parker

Grade: A-

This is all to do with scheme change. In terms of personnel upgrade, D. Bryant looks to be an upgrade over both Parker and Rucker, and switching from 4 to 3 on the DL we didn't need as many bodies. A. Bryant was drafted on a wing and a prayer, maybe he works out and becomes a rotational guy if he can sort his shit out, in which case this becomes an A, but if not no big loss.

Linebackers:

Paul Kruger, Quentin Groves and Barkevious Mingo replacing:

Chris Gocong, Scott Fujita, and Kailuka Maiava

Grade: A

Say what you like about Mingo, he's undersized, we didn't need to draft him - bottom line he's still going to be better for us than any of the three we let go. Kruger as well - overpaid? Maybe. But better than gocong, fujita and maiava? Definitely. Groves adds depth and is someone who knows the system.

Defensive Backfield:

Chris Owens, Kevin Barnes, Leon McFadden, and Jamoris Slaughter replacing:

Sheldon Brown, Ray Ventrone, Usama Young

Grade: B-

I don't have any doubts about McFadden's ability to play in this league, and his ability and experience of 'playing on an island' will make him a key contributor in Ray Horton's defence. He'll be tested often and early, hopefully he can stand up to it and grow in to a proper player. Losing Brown's experience is a bit of a blow - I would have liked to have him around for another year to help mentor the youngsters but overall an upgrade at CB I think. The biggest black mark is obviously the free safety position, but I reckon we'll see Sgt Slaughter making that position his own by the beginning of October, making our backfield one of the best, youngest units around (orange tinted glasses? never!)

Quarterback:

Jason Campbell replacing:

Colt McCoy, Josh Johnson

Grade: B

In terms of ins and outs, not much change in ability, more of a change in system fit, Campbell obviously a better fit to the big downfield system we'll be playing this year. Biggest plus is not drafting Geno Smith (or anyone else for that matter) in the first round.

Running Back:

Dion Lewis replacing:

Brandon Jackson

Grade: C+

Meh. If Lewis contributes on PR/KR then great, otherwise not much of an impact I imagine.

Wide Receivers:

David Nelson and Davone Bess replacing:

Mohammed Massaquoi and Josh Cribbs

Grade: B+

Neither Cribbs nor MomAss contributed much last year for whatever reason. Bess will contribute this year, and hopefully Nelson will a little bit as well. Nothing not to like about the upgrade. Could we have gotten anyone better? Maybe - but there were no blockbuster names out there that fit with the Browns new mantra of young, hungry guys with a point to prove. Boldin? Cash. Wallace? Cash. Harvin? Injuries + high draft pick. Jennings? Injuries + Old. No real slam dunk draft prospects either, no Megatron, no AJ Green, hell, nobody even as talented as last year's top pick, the DUI kid. Best WR drafted with a 2013 pick is Josh Gordon.

Tight Ends:

Kellen Davis and Gary Barnidge replacing:

Ben Watson and Alex Smith

Grade: C

I struggle to see how we have improved here, so can't give a high score. Hopefully Cameron has a break out year, but it's not a lot to pin your hopes on.

Offensive Line:

Garrett Gilkey replacing:

no one. Browns had no losses on O-Line that I am aware of

Grade: B-

Gilkey looks like he could be come a solid contributor at OG. If not, he was a 7th round gamble that didn't pay off - big deal.

Fullback

No One replacing:

Eddie Williams (3rd string?)

Grade: Meh.

Eddie who? Replaced by nobody? I won't be losing sleep over it.

Placekicker:

Shayne Grhaham and Brian Bogotay replacing:

Phil Dawson

Grade: D

Sadly, I think nobody will replace Phil Dawson. Still, he didn't want to stay, didn't want to stay the last two years either, and there wasn't much we could do about it. Shayne Graham is a solid if unspectacular kicker that won't lose us too many matches.

Punter:

Spencer Lanning replacing:

Reggie Hodges

Grade: Inconclusive

I don't know enough about Lanning to comment, but Hodges didn't really do much to make anybody cry out in despair when he was let go. Lanning can't be any worse, can he?

Overall: B

Some solid pick ups in the front seven, and a new starting CB. We could just be one or two players (FS, ILB) away from having a dominant defence.

On offence, we're going with basically the same guys as last year, the one key addition being Davone Bess who should see a lot of the ball in the slot. The biggest loss will probably be Ben Watson at TE - Weeden really got used to the idea of throwing to him towards the end of the season. Big year for Jordan Cameron.

[Vagitron]

@the-gipper said:

@vagitron said:

Hilarious Gipper, even you know you are full.of shit with the above disgruntled tirade. I know quite a lot about football and its not just restricted to my hometown crew.

Total self serving pablum. I doubt ANYONE here agrees that you know much about football. You can't answer basic football trivia. You can't analyze the strengths and weaknesses of any other team. You can't do doodley.

Let's take a poll: Does anyone else here think that Vagitron knows quite a lot about football? Please vote.

I have no desire to continue the above pissing match so im just going ro move on like it didnt happen. Id be wasting at least an hour of my life otherwise. Im on my phone currently and briefly skimmed the post below with your grades. Is stopped at the ball and bell.comparison. Ball had at least three offensive lineman drafted this year Bell had zero and still averaged 5 yards a carry. He was the michigan state offense.

Ball had the better college career....Bell was drafted 10 slots higher.

I think Ball might be slightly better.....but, yes, it is close. Again, in your typical dumbassery, you think someone is better simply because the Steelers took him.

Both have a chance to succeed due to where they were drafted.

At most, a draw.

Also returning to your mr. Wa wa post above the Steelers are much better than mediocre.

They were 8-8 and lost a ton of talent. That is the definition of mediocrity. Only a dumbass can't see that.

My favorite part is going to be shark thomas who really should.be a brown but that genius lombardi traded the pick.

Well....maybe. (though....what you don't know Mr. Genius football guy....is that Thomas is a SS....and the Browns already have a better one in TJ Ward at SS. They needed a FS, which Thomas was not......You don't know anything except about your own team)

The only thing you truly are is the Master of the Obvious.

"The Browns have been lousy" No fucking shit Sherlock.

"Lombardi might not be very smart". You learned that from reading this forum numbnuts.

I can't dissect the strengths and weaknesses of a football team? I do it all the time here and no ONE gives a sh.it about your dumb ass trivia threads. You have the same 4 or 5 people respond each time. You'd be better of sending PM's or meeting up for some bingo Mr. Hoverround. As far as Bell and Ball are concerned you cannot ignore the offensive line Bell ran behind and the one Ball ran behind. There were a few people prior to the draft lauding Bell as the best back in the draft. Bucky Brooks being the most notable. It also has nothing to do with him being drafted a Steeler, if he went to the Browns I'd say the same thing. He ran behind a mediocre offensive line and averaged 5 yards a carry. He lead the nation in yards after contact and the Steelers brass, in this case Kirby Wilson said he watched the tape to see what he did with the ball when he didn't have running lanes and that is how he personally judges a quality tailback. I also knew Lombardi was a dip sh.it GM WELL before he was hired on by the Browns. He displayed those failings well before this year. It's the reason he became a TV personality. He couldn't cut the mustard elsewhere much like that dip Casserly.

[Vagitron]

Oh and the Browns replaced a bunch of guys that wouldn't start on any team in the AFC North. Hell most of them wouldn't start for another team in the NFL period.

[The Gipper]

Final Grades on my Comparisons:

Bengals overall get grades of plus 8 points for a B

Browns overall get grade of plus 7 points for a B

Steelers overall get a grade of minus 2 points for a C-

Ravens overall grade of minus 3 points for a C-

Bengals overall had most infusion of positive talent.

Ravens overall had most loss of talent.

Given this, I say Bengals are odds on ready to pass Ravens as favorite for division champ.

Ravens likely to come in around .500

Steelers and Browns both likely to be around 7-9 or 6-10.

[The Gipper]

@vagitron said:

Yep it's official, this thread is mind numbing. Let's talk losses and gains in the purest sense of the terms and not talk about the guys already on the roster for those respective teams.

Read the fucking title to the thread....this is about what each team got and what each team lost. It is NOT about what players are already on the roster.

Is your mind so mushy that you are incapable of compartmentalizing like that?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised, the Browns are notorious for losing players and replacing them with no one only to rinse and repeat and remain in the gutter. Ray Lewis of course retired, Ellerbe and Kruger were both over paid and they cut Ayenbedejo or however you spell his last name. They also SIGNED IN FREE AGENCY ELVIS DUMERVILL! gipper you ignorant old grump. A player of course you didn't mention.

Really? I didn't mention him? Really? You want to try to go back and read that again? I gave a whole spiel about that guy.

Is it any wonder you have the reputation as a complete moron?

Arthur Brown is going to be a beast and they still have guys like Suggs to lead. You are beyond frustrating because you either do a really, really great job of playing dumb OR you are dumb. I haven't figured it out yet.

Really? Maybe Arthur Brown will be good. The rating still stands. Arthur Brown ain't Ray Lewis, Paul Kruger and Daniel Ellerbe combined good.

Do YOU think that Arthur Brown will make up for the loss of those 3 players.

Rookie Arthur Brown is going to replace a Hall of Famer and two Pro Bowlers all by his lonesome. Sure....keep thinking Butch.

[The Gipper]

@vagitron said:

I can't dissect the strengths and weaknesses of a football team? I do it all the time here and no ONE gives a sh.it about your dumb ass trivia threads. You have the same 4 or 5 people respond each time.

Well, we know you don't because you don't know enough to even try. Because you don't know the history of the game. You don't know the currency of the game. You are too lazy, and you are too stupid.

Even with limited responses, far more people are interested in those than in anything you have to say.

You'd be better of sending PM's or meeting up for some bingo Mr. Hoverround.

Well, you got me on your trivia. I have no clue what a bingo Mr. Hoverround is. Of course, you on the other hand couldn't even try to answer the question of "who had more career TDs, Terry Bradshaw or Ben Roethlisberger"

As far as Bell and Ball are concerned you cannot ignore the offensive line Bell ran behind and the one Ball ran behind. There were a few people prior to the draft lauding Bell as the best back in the draft. Bucky Brooks being the most notable. It also has nothing to do with him being drafted a Steeler, if he went to the Browns I'd say the same thing.

OK, Bell and Ball may be close. Tweedlebell, Tweedleball. Neither can hold a candle to Trent Richardson.

He ran behind a mediocre offensive line and averaged 5 yards a carry. He lead the nation in yards after contact and the Steelers brass, in this case Kirby Wilson said he watched the tape to see what he did with the ball when he didn't have running lanes and that is how he personally judges a quality tailback. I also knew Lombardi was a dip sh.it GM WELL before he was hired on by the Browns. He displayed those failings well before this year. It's the reason he became a TV personality. He couldn't cut the mustard elsewhere much like that dip Casserly.

Well, maybe Lombardi will be a genius a second time around.....like his mentor: Bill Belichick. Sucked here as a coach....went on to obvious success. We expect a repeat of that out of Lombardi.

[The Gipper]

@vagitron said:

Oh and the Browns replaced a bunch of guys that wouldn't start on any team in the AFC North. Hell most of them wouldn't start for another team in the NFL period.

A lot of them do already have jobs elsewhere.....but, But, hell, lets agree with your assessment.....then you have to fully agree with my analysis that the Browns have made major upgrades at many positions.

[gftChris]

Well, maybe Lombardi will be a genius a second time around.....like his mentor: Bill Belichick. Sucked here as a coach....went on to obvious success. We expect a repeat of that out of Lombardi.

I think even the most ardent Browns fan might find that a touch optimistic!

[Vagitron]

Your most recent Baltimore breakdown in this thread does not include Dumervill and without considering the replacements already on the roster this thread is pointless. Truly pointless because you are dishing out the grades like the draft and FA this year are the only means these teams have used to replace parting players. It's short sighted but you're pretty short sighted period so I shouldn't be shocked.

[The Gipper]

@vagitron said:

Your most recent Baltimore breakdown in this thread does not include Dumervill and without considering the replacements already on the roster this thread is pointless.

It doesn't? I reproduce it here:

Defensive Line:

Gained: Brandon Williams, John Simon, Kapron Lewis-Moore, Marcus Spears, Elvis Dumerville, Chris Canty

Lost: Ryan McBean, Ma'ake Keomatu

Grade: B+ Ravens did well to make up for defensive losses. Getting Dumerville was a major coup...dammit. And Simon from my experience is going to be a welcome addition.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, when are you going to stop being such a putz.

As for "not considering replacements already on the roster"....well, if a guy was ON a teams roster before....then that player was not LOST from the team. That team neither Gained nor Lost that player.....and therefore such a player would not be involved in a "Losses vs. Gains Comparison" which is the title of this thread.

Joe Flacco was a FA....and resigned. Thus neither lost nor found.

Do I have to explain it to you like you were a 3 year old?

If you have 3 dogs: Spot, Fido, and Rover, and if for some reason Spot runs away and gets hit by a car...I don't tell you little boy that I have replaced Spot with Fido and Rover. But, if I go out and acquire Jip to replace Spot....then that is what I will tell you about.

Ya follow?

Truly pointless because you are dishing out the grades like the draft and FA this year are the only means these teams have used to replace parting players. It's short sighted but you're pretty short sighted period so I shouldn't be shocked.

OK, so you think that the draft and FA are not the major way of replacing parting players? How else is it done? I noted a couple of trades.....the Bess trade, the Boldin trade.

I also noted that I would not be including the acquisition of Undrafted FAs, because teams sign a ton of them....and to try to analyze all of them would be pointless in my view.

So? What ways of acquiring parted players have I left out that you think is so critical?

[Vagitron]

@the-gipper said:

@vagitron said:

Your most recent Baltimore breakdown in this thread does not include Dumervill and without considering the replacements already on the roster this thread is pointless.

It doesn't? I reproduce it here:

Defensive Line:

Gained: Brandon Williams, John Simon, Kapron Lewis-Moore, Marcus Spears, Elvis Dumerville, Chris Canty

Lost: Ryan McBean, Ma'ake Keomatu

Grade: B+ Ravens did well to make up for defensive losses. Getting Dumerville was a major coup...dammit. And Simon from my experience is going to be a welcome addition.

Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, when are you going to stop being such a putz.

As for "not considering replacements already on the roster"....well, if a guy was ON a teams roster before....then that player was not LOST from the team. That team neither Gained nor Lost that player.....and therefore such a player would not be involved in a "Losses vs. Gains Comparison" which is the title of this thread.

Joe Flacco was a FA....and resigned. Thus neither lost nor found.

Do I have to explain it to you like you were a 3 year old?

If you have 3 dogs: Spot, Fido, and Rover, and if for some reason Spot runs away and gets hit by a car...I don't tell you little boy that I have replaced Spot with Fido and Rover. But, if I go out and acquire Jip to replace Spot....then that is what I will tell you about.

Ya follow?

Truly pointless because you are dishing out the grades like the draft and FA this year are the only means these teams have used to replace parting players. It's short sighted but you're pretty short sighted period so I shouldn't be shocked.

OK, so you think that the draft and FA are not the major way of replacing parting players? How else is it done? I noted a couple of trades.....the Bess trade, the Boldin trade.

I also noted that I would not be including the acquisition of Undrafted FAs, because teams sign a ton of them....and to try to analyze all of them would be pointless in my view.

So? What ways of acquiring parted players have I left out that you think is so critical?

Ahhhh no wonder i missed it. You in typical dip shit gipper fashion listed him with the defensive line with a team that plays the 3-4. He's not going to have his hands in the dirt, he's going to be standing up at outside linebacker therefore he should be listed with the linebackers AND NOT the defensive line.

[Vagitron]

Gipper you are grading these losses and gains as if the playets on the roster dont exist. "what is team xyz going to do with the loss of player x" and then you list fa or drafted players in very finite fashion. A lot of players you attempted to grade out arent even the expected starters at those positions. all of which brings me to my previous point, this thread is pointless and a pathetic effort to place the browns higher up the tree. Great work lol.

[The Gipper]

@vagitron said:

Ahhhh no wonder i missed it. You in typical dip shit gipper fashion listed him with the defensive line with a team that plays the 3-4. He's not going to have his hands in the dirt, he's going to be standing up at outside linebacker therefore he should be listed with the linebackers AND NOT the defensive line.

ESPN's Free Agent Tracker had him listed as a Defensive End. He played Defensive End in Denver basically.

On my list I had Defensive line and LBs right next to one another.. You mean you couldn't follow along?

I guess I didn't truly realize just how "Special" you were.

[Vagitron]

@the-gipper said:

ESPN's Free Agent Tracker had him listed as a Defensive End. He played Defensive End in Denver basically.

On my list I had Defensive line and LBs right next to one another.. You mean you couldn't follow along?

I guess I didn't truly realize just how "Special" you were.

He isnt playing de in a 34 gipper. i know your primary knowledge bank is google but i had hoped you werent going to always take things so literally. he also played a lot of olb for the broncos. yet another weak spot in the gipper knowledge armor, dont know it? Google!!! it!!

edit: i skim most of your rambling and i went straight to certain areas. they didnt do much if anything on the dline so didnt look there.

[The Gipper]

@vagitron said:

Gipper you are grading these losses and gains as if the playets on the roster dont exist. "what is team xyz going to do with the loss of player x" and then you list fa or drafted players in very finite fashion. A lot of players you attempted to grade out arent even the expected starters at those positions. all of which brings me to my previous point, this thread is pointless and a pathetic effort to place the browns higher up the tree. Great work lol.

The thread does just what is says it does: it compares losses and gains. What is it about that you don't understand?

No, it does NOT grade the ENTIRE team roster. Who ever claimed it was supposed to?

OK, sure maybe say Josh Cribbs place on the Browns as th #3-4 WR and the KR/PR might be taken up by a current roster member...perhaps Travis Benjamin. So? This deals with who is no longer going to be on a teams roster vs. who they have newly acquired at those positions

I mean, God, really, are you that thickheaded that you cannot process thought cognitively, spatially or conceptually?

I mean, I didn't realize how apt it was when I used the "Jump, Jip, Jump" metaphor.