Official Browns QB Prospect Discussion!
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No on Bridgewater.
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well as long as we don't have holmgren picking our QB then i'll give this FO achance.
2 years down the line the guy doesn't pan out, then they are gone as well.
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anymore I really don't want to hear about a qb's physical gifts like speed or arm strength or can he hit someone's butthole from 20 yds out. We've been regaled with all these combine stats for years from these fantasy league playing dooshbags. What I want to know, and don't know about any of those qb's coming out next year....is can they read defense's? Can they figure out what's coming pre snap and make the adjustment? Luck has it. Does RG even have it? Or did he make it look like he did cause he can buy himself time with his wheels? We all know now that qb's that rely solely on their wheels have a limited run in the NFL. Luck is going to be around as long as Manning. RG may not be in the league in 3 years. It sucks but it is what it is. Vick was the exception to that rule but that's only because I think he did nothing but study defense in prison. But yeah he's hurt again too.
anymore I really don't want to hear about a qb's physical gifts like speed or arm strength or can he hit someone's butthole from 20 yds out. We've been regaled with all these combine stats for years from these fantasy league playing dooshbags. What I want to know, and don't know about any of those qb's coming out next year....is can they read defense's? Can they figure out what's coming pre snap and make the adjustment? Luck has it. Does RG even have it? Or did he make it look like he did cause he can buy himself time with his wheels? We all know now that qb's that rely solely on their wheels have a limited run in the NFL. Luck is going to be around as long as Manning. RG may not be in the league in 3 years. It sucks but it is what it is. Vick was the exception to that rule but that's only because I think he did nothing but study defense in prison. But yeah he's hurt again too.
BINGO! All those "measurables" are worthless if not backed up with intelligence & knowledge of the total game. I have maintained for years that a 4.6 smart player will play faster & more productively than a 4.3 stupid player. A player who understands the game will see, adjust, & react MUCH faster than a player who doesn't.
Mike
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it's heart, the desire to win and most important of all is the smarts.
some people come with it naturally. johnny manziel is a perfect example of this. he plays like the college game is slower than he is and does things naturally that others could only hope to do. mariota sorta in that same category but is bigger.
do i think either could make it in the NFL? i think mariota would have a better shot only because of his size.
has everyone seen the pounding RG3 is taking this year? seriously he got slammer jammered last week and you know it's taking a toll not only on his body but in his confidence to do what he could do in college.
i'm all for the 'wait and see' about hoyer. is he going to be 100% will he be affected mentally from his injury and not be the same guy?
i'd love to see hoyer be healthy with all the confidence in the world (and have taken a 'sliding' class or 3) come back and make it hard for the FO to go all-in on someone that is unproven at this level. sure he's only played a few games but at least he played a few games. weeden in the big 12 or whatever ok.st. conf is in was probably the best because they played nobody and he was ahead of the game at that point.
coming into the big leagues is a whole other game charlie!
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Some good points, but...
1. Trent Dilfer was literally 14 years ago. We're in leap time and it's a different era. Since then, the Super Bowl has been about Brady, Manning, Manning, Favre, Warner, Roethlisberger, Brees, and Rodgers... a lot of future HOFers. And we went five years where the 10 teams had an average rank of 23rd in rushing, including 3 ranked dead LAST.
2. There is not a Super Bowl team with Jason Campbell at QB. Or Ryan Fitzpatrick. Brian Hoyer? We may never know if he could be some hybrid of Brees and Brady because he turns 29 next year coming off major knee surgery. If he'd started for us at 25 and shown those three good games, I'd feel differently.
The best teams have the best quarterbacks. If not all season (those are usually the 12 in the playoffs) then at least uber hot in the playoffs, like Flacco or Eli. Been that way for a very long time now.
3. I really believe you're behind the curve on Mariota. Matt Miller (NFLN and BR) says Bridgewater is his 2nd rated QB of the past five years and Mariota is 3rd (both behind only Luck). And if either has a bullet, it's Mariota. He's a freak athlete but becoming a truly elite passer. As someone on the national level said, you can get blown away by the measurables (legit 4.4, faster than RG3, as fast as Vick ever was), or the stats (500 yards rushing, 65% completion, sick 20/0 ratio)... but more than anything, just watch him play. He has elite arm talent and accuracy. He's smart. He makes great decisions.
Have we seen a guy that tall, that fast/quick, with that much arm talent come into the league lately? No. Which is why he's giving a legit #1 overall like Bridgewater (and he's damn near perfect) such a run. Those two would be in the running for #1 overall in just about any draft of the past decade.
4. Having a franchise quarterback is the keys to the kingdom. Without one, you can do a lot of other things right (like have the best back and best pass rusher, like the Vikings, or 6 Pro Bowlers like the Chiefs) but it doesn't really matter very much. The best teams have the best quarterbacks. The top of the Passer Ratings and the playoff lineup are roughly the same with an outlier here and there. This administration gets it: The Browns need an elite QB, one that wins game for them. Not one that just avoids stepping on his own cock.
By the way, Alex Smith is going to have to play better or the Chiefs will lose to better teams than Cleveland... and Cleveland could've won that game. Bess catches the punt on the run, the Browns tie it with 3:30 left and have a very good chance of winning it in overtime. Smith isn't even playing like Smith, one of the most accurate game managers in football the past two years.
5. The Browns have a lot of talent. The line has played great whenever Weeden's out and we still get Pinkston back. Gordon's amazing and so is Cameron. I like Obie and I loved Dion in the preseason so we just need another back for that rotation. Mingo, Sheard, Kruger, DQJ, Robertson, Skrine, Haden, Ward, Gipson... that's a damn good defense. Add a corner with size and we're set there.
Receiver? I'd like a high end one, preferably in free agency, but he'll be a second to Gordon so don't get carried away. And neither Little nor Bess are going anywhere. Love another TE to run 12 formations with Cameron.
1. Trent Dilfer was literally 14 years ago. We're in leap time and it's a different era. Since then, the Super Bowl has been about Brady, Manning, Manning, Favre, Warner, Roethlisberger, Brees, and Rodgers... a lot of future HOFers. And we went five years where the 10 teams had an average rank of 23rd in rushing, including 3 ranked dead LAST.
3. Matt Miller (NFLN and BR) says Bridgewater is his 2nd rated QB of the past five years and Mariota is 3rd (both behind only Luck). And if either has a bullet, it's Mariota. He's a freak athlete but becoming a truly elite passer. As someone on the national level said, you can get blown away by the measurables (legit 4.4, faster than RG3, as fast as Vick ever was), or the stats (500 yards rushing, 65% completion, sick 20/0 ratio)... but more than anything, just watch him play. He has elite arm talent and accuracy. He's smart. He makes great decisions.
Have we seen a guy that tall, that fast/quick, with that much arm talent come into the league lately? No. Which is why he's giving a legit #1 overall like Bridgewater (and he's damn near perfect) such a run. Those two would be in the running for #1 overall in just about any draft of the past decade.
Any draft in the last decade? Really?
First, Shep, I'm hard pressed to think of a single member here that agrees with you on Bridgewater. I don't...
Second, I can only think of a couple that like Mariotta. I'm not sold after my first viewing, but I am still looking...
Third... wasn't Boyd "your guy" just a couple weeks ago? You haven't mentioned him lately.
While we all agree you need a QB to win in this league, we simply do not agree that there is anyone in this draft worth giving away the store. And your latest HOF QB list does not help you make your case. Unless I'm mistaken only the Manning brothers were high 1st rounders. I know I'm right that Warner was a UFA...
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No position player in all of team sports influences everybody and everything else like a quarterback. They aren't the beneficiaries... they are the causes.
With Manning? Playoffs, year after year. Without Manning? 1-15. Draft Andrew Luck? Back to the playoffs.
If the Browns had Manning, Brees, Rodgers, or Brady, we'd be 11-5 this year. That position aside, the Browns are like most other teams: We have lots of good football players.
It's the quarterback that makes the difference. Truth. Stafford hurt? Lions suck. Stafford healthy? Lions headed for playoffs. Goes on and on.
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No position player in all of team sports influences everybody and everything else like a quarterback. They aren't the beneficiaries... they are the causes.
With Manning? Playoffs, year after year. Without Manning? 1-15. Draft Andrew Luck? Back to the playoffs.
If the Browns had Manning, Brees, Rodgers, or Brady, we'd be 11-5 this year. That position aside, the Browns are like most other teams: We have lots of good football players.
It's the quarterback that makes the difference. Truth. Stafford hurt? Lions suck. Stafford healthy? Lions headed for playoffs. Goes on and on.
No position player in all of team sports influences everybody and everything else like a quarterback. They aren't the beneficiaries... they are the causes.
With Manning? Playoffs, year after year. Without Manning? 1-15. Draft Andrew Luck? Back to the playoffs.
If the Browns had Manning, Brees, Rodgers, or Brady, we'd be 11-5 this year. That position aside, the Browns are like most other teams: We have lots of good football players.
It's the quarterback that makes the difference. Truth. Stafford hurt? Lions suck. Stafford healthy? Lions headed for playoffs. Goes on and on.
Dammit, no one is debating you a stud qb isn't important in today's NFL. But we can sure debate where and how you find that stud qb makes a world of difference.
Don't give me any crap draft strategy is way better now than it was in 1999. The record speaks for itself. Here's the list of QBs taken in the top 15 since the Browns return- with a few notable exceptions.
Couch
McNabb
Smith (1st massive bust)
Culpepper
McNoun (#12 massive bust)
Vick
Carr (got Carr-ted off the field too often)
Harrington (Remember him Shep? You were still pimping him when I freaking TOLD you every Lions fans in the world knew he sucked Donkey Balls.)
Palmer
Leftwich (nice backup for a top 10 pick)
Boller (#19 overall, bust)
E. Manning
Rivers
Rothlisberger
Alex Smith (on to the SB with the stud KC D)
Vince Young (BUST!!)
Matt Leinart (you were blowing smoke up his sorry ass too)
Cutler (OK with Da Bears- and they didn't draft him either)
JaFattus Russell (MASSIVE BUST #1 OVERALL)
Ryan
Stafford
Sanchez (smart move there Mangini)
Freeman (#17 overall)
Bradford- Andrew Luck he ain't
Fig Newton
Luck
RG III (per ESPN today- struggles in the pocket- now that he can't take off- and gee- has another knee owie)
Tannehill
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Want to look at some of the shit that got drafted top 15 and still tell me it's worth it to sell the ranch on a prayer? For all you know- Bridgewater (the only guy I've scouted to date) may be another Mike Vick- zero SBs, IIRC. Mariotta? Remember another Oregon stud qb by the name of Akilli (worm burner) Smith?
I haven't forgotten how Sports Science was oohing and ahhhing about Weeden's ability to bust clay pigeons with a football. Maybe he can get a job at County Fairs doing the same stunt- after the Browns cut him in January.
Another thing I'm factoring in- and the Brown's FO certainly will before they sell the Ranch on a prospect is "The Brian Hoyer effect". Sure he may be the next Kelly Holcomb- but hmm..... just what if the Browns finally got hit by lightning for a change, and found the next Kurt Warner? If their thinking runs in that direction, they sure as hell won't be spending multiple picks to move up.
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Based on ^^^
I am even more interested in making sure we take a QB in the top 15. On that list, I'd rather have had 14 of those guys than any of the QBs we have had since '99. That is HALF. So, if you're telling me we can make it 50-50 on getting a good QB, I'll take it... and if it doesn't work, I'll try it every year after that...
I'm NOT at all interested in pulling a Redskins trade, especially not if you're talking about Bridgewater or Mariota... I AM all for doing what we need to do in order to get the QB that fits our system. If we have to use 2 1st round picks to get him, no problem... If we trade 3 1st rounders +... I won't be happy, but guess what? It'll be about 50-50 he has success...
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23, 50/50 you say? How do you come to that number?
Does anyone think that Indianapolis would trade Andrew Luck for both of our first round picks and our second? Do you think they would trade Andrew Luck for Bridgewater and Mariota and Boyd?
WSS
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
There's not a QB worth trading up for. We will get a good QB with our first pick, which will be a Top 10 pick.
However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's. According to the Law of Averages, of the top 4 QB's: one will excel, one will be good, one will be mediocre and one will be garbage. It's a crapshoot as to which player does what.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
We all know that the Browns have a ton of talent, and a pretty good oline.
When Peyton went to the Colts, his left tackle was already a first round pick
ahead of him.
Measure the qbs... how to you measure their ability to see the field?
I don't see Mariotta being a fiery leader...yet. Joe Flacco was picked in the
bottom half of the first round.
Big stupid BR was out of the first ten. Eli Manning and Alex Smith - questions about them
being busts were common. That special "it" factor is what the Browns need.
And trading valuable picks for an Eli or Alex isn't about "It".
This Browns staff and FO will know the guy who has "it", and will get him.
I don't see the top two in this draft being "have to have".
The Browns need a Hoyer/Sipe/Nelson/Kosar - smart qb in this next draft.
Needs the instincts, the qb smarts, the leadership to put all that Browns
talent together. Even if he doesn't have the biggest "nfl" arm.
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23, 50/50 you say? How do you come to that number?
Does anyone think that Indianapolis would trade Andrew Luck for both of our first round picks and our second? Do you think they would trade Andrew Luck for Bridgewater and Mariota and Boyd?
WSS
WSS
23, 50/50 you say? How do you come to that number?
Does anyone think that Indianapolis would trade Andrew Luck for both of our first round picks and our second? Do you think they would trade Andrew Luck for Bridgewater and Mariota and Boyd?
WSS
Steve, Luck was one of those rare, rare birds- the can't miss prospect that couldn't miss. Elway level talent. Scouts tried to pick apart his game looking for weaknesses- and couldn't find any. The Colts turned down RG III level trades to take him. LOL, now the Browns could offer the Colts their entire 2014 draft for Andy, and they'd get flat turned down.
There's not a QB worth trading up for. We will get a good QB with our first pick, which will be a Top 10 pick.
However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's. According to the Law of Averages, of the top 4 QB's: one will excel, one will be good, one will be mediocre and one will be garbage. It's a crapshoot as to which player does what.
That's exactly it TC. Every year draftnicks and scouts cream their pants over the current crop of college qb prospects. BTW, if we draft in the top 10, I'm hoping it's because we had to trade up.
I really don't care where we draft our stud qb, as long as we draft one. Otto Graham was even before my time & you'd have to be well into your 30s to remember Kosar's few great years. .
Like I commented to Steve- the very top quarterbacks, the Elways, Marinos, Bradys ,and Brees are rare birds- maybe every three years or so- and you don't necessarily need to have a top 2 pick to land one of them. I can't recall an instance were a team successfully sold the Ranch to get a talent like that.
Walter's football was laughing at us for not giving up three firsts and a second to land RG III- well, who's laughing now? Redskins fans are sweating bullets, praying nightly, and ordering up cases of Lourdes water that Griffin doesn't turn into a Ki-Jana Carter injury bust. If he does- to put it bluntly- they're screwed.
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No position player in all of team sports influences everybody and everything else like a quarterback. They aren't the beneficiaries... they are the causes.
With Manning? Playoffs, year after year. Without Manning? 1-15. Draft Andrew Luck? Back to the playoffs.
If the Browns had Manning, Brees, Rodgers, or Brady, we'd be 11-5 this year. That position aside, the Browns are like most other teams: We have lots of good football players.
It's the quarterback that makes the difference. Truth. Stafford hurt? Lions suck. Stafford healthy? Lions headed for playoffs. Goes on and on.
Dammit, no one is debating you a stud qb isn't important in today's NFL. But we can sure debate where and how you find that stud qb makes a world of difference.
Don't give me any crap draft strategy is way better now than it was in 1999. The record speaks for itself. Here's the list of QBs taken in the top 15 since the Browns return- with a few notable exceptions.
Couch
McNabb
Smith (1st massive bust)
Culpepper
McNoun (#12 massive bust)
Vick
Carr (got Carr-ted off the field too often)
Harrington (Remember him Shep? You were still pimping him when I freaking TOLD you every Lions fans in the world knew he sucked Donkey Balls.)
Palmer
Leftwich (nice backup for a top 10 pick)
Boller (#19 overall, bust)
E. Manning
Rivers
Rothlisberger
Alex Smith (on to the SB with the stud KC D)
Vince Young (BUST!!)
Matt Leinart (you were blowing smoke up his sorry ass too)
Cutler (OK with Da Bears- and they didn't draft him either)
JaFattus Russell (MASSIVE BUST #1 OVERALL)
Ryan
Stafford
Sanchez (smart move there Mangini)
Freeman (#17 overall)
Bradford- Andrew Luck he ain't
Fig Newton
Luck
RG III (per ESPN today- struggles in the pocket- now that he can't take off- and gee- has another knee owie)
Tannehill
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Want to look at some of the shit that got drafted top 15 and still tell me it's worth it to sell the ranch on a prayer? For all you know- Bridgewater (the only guy I've scouted to date) may be another Mike Vick- zero SBs, IIRC. Mariotta? Remember another Oregon stud qb by the name of Akilli (worm burner) Smith?
I haven't forgotten how Sports Science was oohing and ahhhing about Weeden's ability to bust clay pigeons with a football. Maybe he can get a job at County Fairs doing the same stunt- after the Browns cut him in January.
Another thing I'm factoring in- and the Brown's FO certainly will before they sell the Ranch on a prospect is "The Brian Hoyer effect". Sure he may be the next Kelly Holcomb- but hmm..... just what if the Browns finally got hit by lightning for a change, and found the next Kurt Warner? If their thinking runs in that direction, they sure as hell won't be spending multiple picks to move up.
Golf has female steakers? Cool... suck on it soccer...
- Dammit, no one is debating you a stud qb isn't important in today's NFL. But we can sure debate where and how you find that stud qb makes a world of difference.
- I haven't forgotten how Sports Science was oohing and ahhhing about Weeden's ability to bust clay pigeons with a football. Maybe he can get a job at County Fairs doing the same stunt- after the Browns cut him in January.
- Another thing I'm factoring in- and the Browns FO certainly will before they sell the Ranch on a prospect is "The Brian Hoyer effect". Sure he may be the next Kelly Holcomb- but hmm..... just what if the Browns finally got hit by lightning for a change, and found the next Kurt Warner? If their thinking runs in that direction, they sure as hell won't be spending multiple picks to move up.
1. Exactly... may have gotten thru this time...
2. LOL
3. Yup... Fits with what I have posted. It's Hoyer's job now. Campbell is a placeholder. It will remain Hoyer's job in the minds of most fans until he shows he cannot recreate the excitement he did for 2 games in 2013.
However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's.
... at the next level...
But odds also improve that at least one in the 2nd round or lower will be "good". I'll settle for that one...
Measure the qbs... how to you measure their ability to see the field?
Watching lots of wide angle footage we don't get to see.
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Golf has female steakers? Cool... suck on it soccer...
- Dammit, no one is debating you a stud qb isn't important in today's NFL. But we can sure debate where and how you find that stud qb makes a world of difference.
- I haven't forgotten how Sports Science was oohing and ahhhing about Weeden's ability to bust clay pigeons with a football. Maybe he can get a job at County Fairs doing the same stunt- after the Browns cut him in January.
- Another thing I'm factoring in- and the Browns FO certainly will before they sell the Ranch on a prospect is "The Brian Hoyer effect". Sure he may be the next Kelly Holcomb- but hmm..... just what if the Browns finally got hit by lightning for a change, and found the next Kurt Warner? If their thinking runs in that direction, they sure as hell won't be spending multiple picks to move up.
1. Exactly... may have gotten thru this time...
2. LOL
3. Yup... Fits with what I have posted. It's Hoyer's job now. Campbell is a placeholder. It will remain Hoyer's job in the minds of most fans until he shows he cannot recreate the excitement he did for 2 games in 2013.
However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's.
... at the next level...
But odds also improve that at least one in the 2nd round or lower will be "good". I'll settle for that one...
Measure the qbs... how to you measure their ability to see the field?
Watching lots of wide angle footage we don't get to see.
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Watching lots of wide angle footage we don't get to see.
I'd guess, things like watching the eyes, seeing whether the head moves as they go through progressions and how quickly, whether they can 'look off' the safeties, reading a zone, seeing how the zone transforms, as ours did a lot against Kansas at the weekend, whether they can do these things when running a play action, and especially when under pressure. But probably more things as well that are well above my football IQ.
Then you get on to all the pre-snap reads, audibles etc. if a guy hasn't done it at college level, can you expect him to do it at the pro level?
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Yup... and good question...
So many times now QB and entire Offense looks to sideline for any pre-read audible... I hate that... tells you nothing good about the QB.
Key is does the QB lock onto a reciever or a key defensive player at the snap? If the former, then you have a thrower, e.g., Wheezy. If the latter, then you just may have a QB.
If the QB shows that he can read coverage on the fly, then pre-snap is a "snap".
Another test is where the QB's eyes go when flushed out of pocket. As we are told ad nauseum during broadcasts, the good ones keep their eyes downfield... the also-rans only see the rush.
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An NFL scout said Jameis Winston of Florida would be the number 1 pick if he was eligible. That kid is a stud
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There's not a QB worth trading up for. We will get a good QB with our first pick, which will be a Top 10 pick.
However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's. According to the Law of Averages, of the top 4 QB's: one will excel, one will be good, one will be mediocre and one will be garbage. It's a crapshoot as to which player does what.
There's not a QB worth trading up for. We will get a good QB with our first pick, which will be a Top 10 pick.
However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's. According to the Law of Averages, of the top 4 QB's: one will excel, one will be good, one will be mediocre and one will be garbage. It's a crapshoot as to which player does what.
I agree that these are certainly not odds that are worthy of a trade up. I bold faced above what, in my opinion, is the key statement. I don't think the top rated QBs in this upcoming draft can carry Luck's shoes, but that's just MY opinion. I have not seen a single scouting report that states any of this years' QB crop can take a D apart by reading it & that eliminates trading up. I still think McCarron's the guy this year & he lacks the "measurables" too many of these guys fall in love with for a #1 or #2 guy, but I DO think he has the mental skills coupled with good (maybe not great) physical tools to let him learn & develop behind Hoyer, who I still believe will come back to lead the Browns in 2014.
Mike
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