Official Browns QB Prospect Discussion!

hoorta

@shep said:

No position player in all of team sports influences everybody and everything else like a quarterback. They aren't the beneficiaries... they are the causes.

With Manning? Playoffs, year after year. Without Manning? 1-15. Draft Andrew Luck? Back to the playoffs.

If the Browns had Manning, Brees, Rodgers, or Brady, we'd be 11-5 this year. That position aside, the Browns are like most other teams: We have lots of good football players.

It's the quarterback that makes the difference. Truth. Stafford hurt? Lions suck. Stafford healthy? Lions headed for playoffs. Goes on and on.

Dammit, no one is debating you a stud qb isn't important in today's NFL. But we can sure debate where and how you find that stud qb makes a world of difference.

Don't give me any crap draft strategy is way better now than it was in 1999. The record speaks for itself. Here's the list of QBs taken in the top 15 since the Browns return- with a few notable exceptions.

Couch

McNabb

Smith (1st massive bust)

Culpepper

McNoun (#12 massive bust)

Vick

Carr (got Carr-ted off the field too often)

Harrington (Remember him Shep? You were still pimping him when I freaking TOLD you every Lions fans in the world knew he sucked Donkey Balls.)

Palmer

Leftwich (nice backup for a top 10 pick)

Boller (#19 overall, bust)

E. Manning

Rivers

Rothlisberger

Alex Smith (on to the SB with the stud KC D)

Vince Young (BUST!!)

Matt Leinart (you were blowing smoke up his sorry ass too)

Cutler (OK with Da Bears- and they didn't draft him either)

JaFattus Russell (MASSIVE BUST #1 OVERALL)

Ryan

Stafford

Sanchez (smart move there Mangini)

Freeman (#17 overall)

Bradford- Andrew Luck he ain't

Fig Newton

Luck

RG III (per ESPN today- struggles in the pocket- now that he can't take off- and gee- has another knee owie)

Tannehill

______________________________________________________

Want to look at some of the shit that got drafted top 15 and still tell me it's worth it to sell the ranch on a prayer? For all you know- Bridgewater (the only guy I've scouted to date) may be another Mike Vick- zero SBs, IIRC. Mariotta? Remember another Oregon stud qb by the name of Akilli (worm burner) Smith?

I haven't forgotten how Sports Science was oohing and ahhhing about Weeden's ability to bust clay pigeons with a football. Maybe he can get a job at County Fairs doing the same stunt- after the Browns cut him in January.

Another thing I'm factoring in- and the Brown's FO certainly will before they sell the Ranch on a prospect is "The Brian Hoyer effect". Sure he may be the next Kelly Holcomb- but hmm..... just what if the Browns finally got hit by lightning for a change, and found the next Kurt Warner? If their thinking runs in that direction, they sure as hell won't be spending multiple picks to move up.

thenew23

Based on ^^^

I am even more interested in making sure we take a QB in the top 15. On that list, I'd rather have had 14 of those guys than any of the QBs we have had since '99. That is HALF. So, if you're telling me we can make it 50-50 on getting a good QB, I'll take it... and if it doesn't work, I'll try it every year after that...

I'm NOT at all interested in pulling a Redskins trade, especially not if you're talking about Bridgewater or Mariota... I AM all for doing what we need to do in order to get the QB that fits our system. If we have to use 2 1st round picks to get him, no problem... If we trade 3 1st rounders +... I won't be happy, but guess what? It'll be about 50-50 he has success...

Westside Steve

23, 50/50 you say? How do you come to that number?

Does anyone think that Indianapolis would trade Andrew Luck for both of our first round picks and our second? Do you think they would trade Andrew Luck for Bridgewater and Mariota and Boyd?

WSS

Tim Couch Pulls Out

There's not a QB worth trading up for. We will get a good QB with our first pick, which will be a Top 10 pick.

However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's. According to the Law of Averages, of the top 4 QB's: one will excel, one will be good, one will be mediocre and one will be garbage. It's a crapshoot as to which player does what.

calfoxwc

We all know that the Browns have a ton of talent, and a pretty good oline.

When Peyton went to the Colts, his left tackle was already a first round pick

ahead of him.

Measure the qbs... how to you measure their ability to see the field?

I don't see Mariotta being a fiery leader...yet. Joe Flacco was picked in the

bottom half of the first round.

Big stupid BR was out of the first ten. Eli Manning and Alex Smith - questions about them

being busts were common. That special "it" factor is what the Browns need.

And trading valuable picks for an Eli or Alex isn't about "It".

This Browns staff and FO will know the guy who has "it", and will get him.

I don't see the top two in this draft being "have to have".

The Browns need a Hoyer/Sipe/Nelson/Kosar - smart qb in this next draft.

Needs the instincts, the qb smarts, the leadership to put all that Browns

talent together. Even if he doesn't have the biggest "nfl" arm.

**********************

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hoorta

@westside-steve said:

23, 50/50 you say? How do you come to that number?

Does anyone think that Indianapolis would trade Andrew Luck for both of our first round picks and our second? Do you think they would trade Andrew Luck for Bridgewater and Mariota and Boyd?

WSS

Steve, Luck was one of those rare, rare birds- the can't miss prospect that couldn't miss. Elway level talent. Scouts tried to pick apart his game looking for weaknesses- and couldn't find any. The Colts turned down RG III level trades to take him. LOL, now the Browns could offer the Colts their entire 2014 draft for Andy, and they'd get flat turned down.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

There's not a QB worth trading up for. We will get a good QB with our first pick, which will be a Top 10 pick.

However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's. According to the Law of Averages, of the top 4 QB's: one will excel, one will be good, one will be mediocre and one will be garbage. It's a crapshoot as to which player does what.

That's exactly it TC. Every year draftnicks and scouts cream their pants over the current crop of college qb prospects. BTW, if we draft in the top 10, I'm hoping it's because we had to trade up.

I really don't care where we draft our stud qb, as long as we draft one. Otto Graham was even before my time & you'd have to be well into your 30s to remember Kosar's few great years. .

Like I commented to Steve- the very top quarterbacks, the Elways, Marinos, Bradys ,and Brees are rare birds- maybe every three years or so- and you don't necessarily need to have a top 2 pick to land one of them. I can't recall an instance were a team successfully sold the Ranch to get a talent like that.

Walter's football was laughing at us for not giving up three firsts and a second to land RG III- well, who's laughing now? Redskins fans are sweating bullets, praying nightly, and ordering up cases of Lourdes water that Griffin doesn't turn into a Ki-Jana Carter injury bust. If he does- to put it bluntly- they're screwed.

Zombo

Tour2ma

Golf has female steakers? Cool... suck on it soccer...

@hoorta said:

Dammit, no one is debating you a stud qb isn't important in today's NFL. But we can sure debate where and how you find that stud qb makes a world of difference.

I haven't forgotten how Sports Science was oohing and ahhhing about Weeden's ability to bust clay pigeons with a football. Maybe he can get a job at County Fairs doing the same stunt- after the Browns cut him in January.

Another thing I'm factoring in- and the Browns FO certainly will before they sell the Ranch on a prospect is "The Brian Hoyer effect". Sure he may be the next Kelly Holcomb- but hmm..... just what if the Browns finally got hit by lightning for a change, and found the next Kurt Warner? If their thinking runs in that direction, they sure as hell won't be spending multiple picks to move up.

1. Exactly... may have gotten thru this time...

2. LOL

3. Yup... Fits with what I have posted. It's Hoyer's job now. Campbell is a placeholder. It will remain Hoyer's job in the minds of most fans until he shows he cannot recreate the excitement he did for 2 games in 2013.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:
However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's.

... at the next level...

But odds also improve that at least one in the 2nd round or lower will be "good". I'll settle for that one...

@calfoxwc said:
Measure the qbs... how to you measure their ability to see the field?

Watching lots of wide angle footage we don't get to see.

Zombo

@tour2ma said:

Golf has female steakers? Cool... suck on it soccer...

Whoops, that was supposed to go in Gipper's "Streaker" thread. But we'll leave her here, looks like she has a good 40 time.

Zombo

gftChris

Watching lots of wide angle footage we don't get to see.

I'd guess, things like watching the eyes, seeing whether the head moves as they go through progressions and how quickly, whether they can 'look off' the safeties, reading a zone, seeing how the zone transforms, as ours did a lot against Kansas at the weekend, whether they can do these things when running a play action, and especially when under pressure. But probably more things as well that are well above my football IQ.

Then you get on to all the pre-snap reads, audibles etc. if a guy hasn't done it at college level, can you expect him to do it at the pro level?

Tour2ma

Yup... and good question...

So many times now QB and entire Offense looks to sideline for any pre-read audible... I hate that... tells you nothing good about the QB.

Key is does the QB lock onto a reciever or a key defensive player at the snap? If the former, then you have a thrower, e.g., Wheezy. If the latter, then you just may have a QB.

If the QB shows that he can read coverage on the fly, then pre-snap is a "snap".

Another test is where the QB's eyes go when flushed out of pocket. As we are told ad nauseum during broadcasts, the good ones keep their eyes downfield... the also-rans only see the rush.

CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS

An NFL scout said Jameis Winston of Florida would be the number 1 pick if he was eligible. That kid is a stud

Mark O

Article on SI.com mentions the Rams might be willing to deal Sam Bradford this offseason.

Any interest?

Canton Mike

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

There's not a QB worth trading up for. We will get a good QB with our first pick, which will be a Top 10 pick.

However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's. According to the Law of Averages, of the top 4 QB's: one will excel, one will be good, one will be mediocre and one will be garbage. It's a crapshoot as to which player does what.

I agree that these are certainly not odds that are worthy of a trade up. I bold faced above what, in my opinion, is the key statement. I don't think the top rated QBs in this upcoming draft can carry Luck's shoes, but that's just MY opinion. I have not seen a single scouting report that states any of this years' QB crop can take a D apart by reading it & that eliminates trading up. I still think McCarron's the guy this year & he lacks the "measurables" too many of these guys fall in love with for a #1 or #2 guy, but I DO think he has the mental skills coupled with good (maybe not great) physical tools to let him learn & develop behind Hoyer, who I still believe will come back to lead the Browns in 2014.

Mike

Tour2ma

@mark-o said:

Article on SI.com mentions the Rams might be willing to deal Sam Bradford this offseason.

Any interest?

While there are signs that Sam has finally gotten "it" this year. I have to say no...

Just feel that he's one of those tweeners. Good enough to get hopes up, but not take you home.

Plus now he's injured for the 2nd time in his career.

First was a "mere" high ankle sprain putting him out of six games in 2011.

Now comes the ACL tear...

Besides we already have one of the latter.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

There are three "reads" a QB has to make before he even makes his route reads: pre-snap, snap, and plant.

Pre-snap is beaten to death on this forum. We all know that a QB has to be able to accurately guesstimate what the defense will do based on their alignments and posture. I say "guesstimate" because a god defensive coordinator, of course, hides his intentions.

Many people like to say that Manning can read a defense before he snaps the ball. That's not the case, in truth. Normally, the pre-snap read is focused on identifying the CB assignment and identifying the mike. Half of the staff Manning does at the line is for show; trying to get the defense to force their hand. He can yell out "sixteen bologna, 52 mike, snake, snake!", it doesn't mean anything. All he's doing is bluffing.

What Manning does read nearly instantly, however, is whether the CB's are playing man or zone. This will help him eliminate many routes that are low percentage against that coverage, and help him audible accordingly. A QB's pre-snap mental agility is no doubt one of the most important qualities.

To me, however, the penultimate read is the snap read. This is the read the QB makes at the moment the ball is snapped. The snap read tends to be focused on the mike LB and/or the FS. When a QB is dropping back, in the second or two before he completes his drop, he needs to be able to tell if the safety is dropping to a half zone or single deep, if the mike is playing the RB, blitzing, filling a gap or sitting zone, and if his receivers made a clean break off the bump. All of this is one or two seconds.

That's what all great QB's have in common. Not all walk to the line and wave their arms and scream nonsense. It's the quickness of the second read that they all share.

Unfortunately, it's something that's impossible to scout.

Shep

Decent drop off from Bridgewater and Mariota, if you polled a dozen GMs. Not to say Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, or somebody else couldn't end up awesome. But from what we know right now? They're 2 of the top 3 guys drafted.

And most would tell you the Browns will go balls out for one or the other. Latest rumor is Mariota.

thenew23

@shep said:

Decent drop off from Bridgewater and Mariota, if you polled a dozen GMs. Not to say Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, or somebody else couldn't end up awesome. But from what we know right now? They're 2 of the top 3 guys drafted.

And most would tell you the Browns will go balls out for one or the other. Latest rumor is Mariota.

Your obsession is noted... thanks again...

bringbackbrownie2

@shep said:

Decent drop off from Bridgewater and Mariota, if you polled a dozen GMs. Not to say Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, or somebody else couldn't end up awesome. But from what we know right now? They're 2 of the top 3 guys drafted.

And most would tell you the Browns will go balls out for one or the other. Latest rumor is Mariota.

That's just it. Rankings don't mean shit. It matters how good they are once they play in the NFL. Weeden, Ponder, and Gabbert were all high round picks that sucked in the NFL. And your boy Tannehill looks far from impressive. Having a great QB is essential for long term success, but there are about 3 maybe 4 teams with top notch QBs. It's a team sport and I would hate to blow half our draft to move up for Bridgewater or Mariota when there are plenty of other QBs we can take not to mention Hoyer still being a possible long term solution...

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@shep said:

Decent drop off from Bridgewater and Mariota, if you polled a dozen GMs. Not to say Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, or somebody else couldn't end up awesome. But from what we know right now? They're 2 of the top 3 guys drafted.

And most would tell you the Browns will go balls out for one or the other. Latest rumor is Mariota.

How do you know that's true?

Tell you what, how about you poll a dozen GM's and get back to us with the results. For the record, a dozen GM's is basically a third of the league, so I would actually lean toward siding with the other 66% of GM's who supposedly feel different.