Official Browns QB Prospect Discussion!

Tour2ma

Golf has female steakers? Cool... suck on it soccer...

@hoorta said:

Dammit, no one is debating you a stud qb isn't important in today's NFL. But we can sure debate where and how you find that stud qb makes a world of difference.

I haven't forgotten how Sports Science was oohing and ahhhing about Weeden's ability to bust clay pigeons with a football. Maybe he can get a job at County Fairs doing the same stunt- after the Browns cut him in January.

Another thing I'm factoring in- and the Browns FO certainly will before they sell the Ranch on a prospect is "The Brian Hoyer effect". Sure he may be the next Kelly Holcomb- but hmm..... just what if the Browns finally got hit by lightning for a change, and found the next Kurt Warner? If their thinking runs in that direction, they sure as hell won't be spending multiple picks to move up.

1. Exactly... may have gotten thru this time...

2. LOL

3. Yup... Fits with what I have posted. It's Hoyer's job now. Campbell is a placeholder. It will remain Hoyer's job in the minds of most fans until he shows he cannot recreate the excitement he did for 2 games in 2013.

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:
However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's.

... at the next level...

But odds also improve that at least one in the 2nd round or lower will be "good". I'll settle for that one...

@calfoxwc said:
Measure the qbs... how to you measure their ability to see the field?

Watching lots of wide angle footage we don't get to see.

Zombo

@tour2ma said:

Golf has female steakers? Cool... suck on it soccer...

Whoops, that was supposed to go in Gipper's "Streaker" thread. But we'll leave her here, looks like she has a good 40 time.

Zombo

gftChris

Watching lots of wide angle footage we don't get to see.

I'd guess, things like watching the eyes, seeing whether the head moves as they go through progressions and how quickly, whether they can 'look off' the safeties, reading a zone, seeing how the zone transforms, as ours did a lot against Kansas at the weekend, whether they can do these things when running a play action, and especially when under pressure. But probably more things as well that are well above my football IQ.

Then you get on to all the pre-snap reads, audibles etc. if a guy hasn't done it at college level, can you expect him to do it at the pro level?

Tour2ma

Yup... and good question...

So many times now QB and entire Offense looks to sideline for any pre-read audible... I hate that... tells you nothing good about the QB.

Key is does the QB lock onto a reciever or a key defensive player at the snap? If the former, then you have a thrower, e.g., Wheezy. If the latter, then you just may have a QB.

If the QB shows that he can read coverage on the fly, then pre-snap is a "snap".

Another test is where the QB's eyes go when flushed out of pocket. As we are told ad nauseum during broadcasts, the good ones keep their eyes downfield... the also-rans only see the rush.

CLEVELANDwantsPLAYOFFS

An NFL scout said Jameis Winston of Florida would be the number 1 pick if he was eligible. That kid is a stud

Mark O

Article on SI.com mentions the Rams might be willing to deal Sam Bradford this offseason.

Any interest?

Canton Mike

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

There's not a QB worth trading up for. We will get a good QB with our first pick, which will be a Top 10 pick.

However, even though this draft is QB deep, it doesn't mean it's deep with good QB's. According to the Law of Averages, of the top 4 QB's: one will excel, one will be good, one will be mediocre and one will be garbage. It's a crapshoot as to which player does what.

I agree that these are certainly not odds that are worthy of a trade up. I bold faced above what, in my opinion, is the key statement. I don't think the top rated QBs in this upcoming draft can carry Luck's shoes, but that's just MY opinion. I have not seen a single scouting report that states any of this years' QB crop can take a D apart by reading it & that eliminates trading up. I still think McCarron's the guy this year & he lacks the "measurables" too many of these guys fall in love with for a #1 or #2 guy, but I DO think he has the mental skills coupled with good (maybe not great) physical tools to let him learn & develop behind Hoyer, who I still believe will come back to lead the Browns in 2014.

Mike

Tour2ma

@mark-o said:

Article on SI.com mentions the Rams might be willing to deal Sam Bradford this offseason.

Any interest?

While there are signs that Sam has finally gotten "it" this year. I have to say no...

Just feel that he's one of those tweeners. Good enough to get hopes up, but not take you home.

Plus now he's injured for the 2nd time in his career.

First was a "mere" high ankle sprain putting him out of six games in 2011.

Now comes the ACL tear...

Besides we already have one of the latter.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

There are three "reads" a QB has to make before he even makes his route reads: pre-snap, snap, and plant.

Pre-snap is beaten to death on this forum. We all know that a QB has to be able to accurately guesstimate what the defense will do based on their alignments and posture. I say "guesstimate" because a god defensive coordinator, of course, hides his intentions.

Many people like to say that Manning can read a defense before he snaps the ball. That's not the case, in truth. Normally, the pre-snap read is focused on identifying the CB assignment and identifying the mike. Half of the staff Manning does at the line is for show; trying to get the defense to force their hand. He can yell out "sixteen bologna, 52 mike, snake, snake!", it doesn't mean anything. All he's doing is bluffing.

What Manning does read nearly instantly, however, is whether the CB's are playing man or zone. This will help him eliminate many routes that are low percentage against that coverage, and help him audible accordingly. A QB's pre-snap mental agility is no doubt one of the most important qualities.

To me, however, the penultimate read is the snap read. This is the read the QB makes at the moment the ball is snapped. The snap read tends to be focused on the mike LB and/or the FS. When a QB is dropping back, in the second or two before he completes his drop, he needs to be able to tell if the safety is dropping to a half zone or single deep, if the mike is playing the RB, blitzing, filling a gap or sitting zone, and if his receivers made a clean break off the bump. All of this is one or two seconds.

That's what all great QB's have in common. Not all walk to the line and wave their arms and scream nonsense. It's the quickness of the second read that they all share.

Unfortunately, it's something that's impossible to scout.

Shep

Decent drop off from Bridgewater and Mariota, if you polled a dozen GMs. Not to say Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, or somebody else couldn't end up awesome. But from what we know right now? They're 2 of the top 3 guys drafted.

And most would tell you the Browns will go balls out for one or the other. Latest rumor is Mariota.

thenew23

@shep said:

Decent drop off from Bridgewater and Mariota, if you polled a dozen GMs. Not to say Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, or somebody else couldn't end up awesome. But from what we know right now? They're 2 of the top 3 guys drafted.

And most would tell you the Browns will go balls out for one or the other. Latest rumor is Mariota.

Your obsession is noted... thanks again...

bringbackbrownie2

@shep said:

Decent drop off from Bridgewater and Mariota, if you polled a dozen GMs. Not to say Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, or somebody else couldn't end up awesome. But from what we know right now? They're 2 of the top 3 guys drafted.

And most would tell you the Browns will go balls out for one or the other. Latest rumor is Mariota.

That's just it. Rankings don't mean shit. It matters how good they are once they play in the NFL. Weeden, Ponder, and Gabbert were all high round picks that sucked in the NFL. And your boy Tannehill looks far from impressive. Having a great QB is essential for long term success, but there are about 3 maybe 4 teams with top notch QBs. It's a team sport and I would hate to blow half our draft to move up for Bridgewater or Mariota when there are plenty of other QBs we can take not to mention Hoyer still being a possible long term solution...

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@shep said:

Decent drop off from Bridgewater and Mariota, if you polled a dozen GMs. Not to say Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, or somebody else couldn't end up awesome. But from what we know right now? They're 2 of the top 3 guys drafted.

And most would tell you the Browns will go balls out for one or the other. Latest rumor is Mariota.

How do you know that's true?

Tell you what, how about you poll a dozen GM's and get back to us with the results. For the record, a dozen GM's is basically a third of the league, so I would actually lean toward siding with the other 66% of GM's who supposedly feel different.

hoorta

@shep said:

Decent drop off from Bridgewater and Mariota, if you polled a dozen GMs. Not to say Manziel, Carr, Mettenberger, or somebody else couldn't end up awesome. But from what we know right now? They're 2 of the top 3 guys drafted.

And most would tell you the Browns will go balls out for one or the other. Latest rumor is Mariota.

Source please? If the Browns finish 8-8, they'll have to give away 1\2 their draft, plus probably next year's #1 to move up that high. Dream all you want to.

Westside Steve

Heh also a decent or even steeper drop off from Luck to Bilgewater ......

(just wanted to use that nickname for when he goes somewhere else )

WSS

Shep

Wow... you don't like Bridgewater?

I honestly don't have any problem with anybody hating on every QB draft (boards are notorious for that)... but I'm offering up the broader notion that most in and around the NFL see this as a very good QB draft if most or all of the eligible guys come out. Most also would bet you a thou or so that the Browns will be very aggressive about getting the guy they want with the first card they send to the podium.

I believe it was Higdon who said "sources" say the Browns like both Mariota and Manziel a lot. Part of that is because Bridgewater is one of the higher rated QBs to come out in the past five years and a lock for #1, probably to Jax. MANY mocks think TB will take Clowney because they like Glennon and intend to continue developing him.

But it's also because Chud wants a very mobile QB who can give him more options with the offense. I don't see them taking Mettenberger or Carr, frankly. Right now, they pick 11th and you're seeing a lot of Manziel there... but it's tough to find anybody who doesn't expect the Browns to be extremely aggressive trading up... partially because they said that's why they acquired the extra #1. They aren't being coy about it. There really are no mocks that DON'T have the Browns taking a QB.

It's not an obsession. It's just reading and watching and taking the most reasonable stance. I like Hoyer. So does Mary Kay. So does Grossi. Neither believes for a second the Browns won't draft a quarterback early in round 1.

Couch... you were joking on the math, right? I didn't say, "Find 12 GMs who say this is a great QB draft and then ask them if they think it's a great QB draft." Please say you were kiddin' around. I said poll a dozen GMs. The dozen you have access to, or randomly, and they'll tell you it's an excellent QB draft. They'll also tell you Bridgewater is a legit #1 overall pick at QB and there are probably four or five guys better than anybody in last year's draft.

And as Peter King said, if the draft were held today, both EJ Manuel and Geno Smith would make more money. Not because they've been the best ever but because they've looked legit. Manuel probably wouldn't get past the Browns.

Tour2ma

@thenew23 said:
Your obsession is noted... thanks again...

LOL... Hang in there, Shep.

I may disagree, but I admire your sticktoittiveness...

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

There are three "reads" a QB has to make before he even makes his route reads: pre-snap, snap, and plant.

A QB's pre-snap mental agility is no doubt one of the most important qualities.

To me, however, the penultimate read is the snap read. This is the read the QB makes at the moment the ball is snapped. The snap read tends to be focused on the mike LB and/or the FS. When a QB is dropping back, in the second or two before he completes his drop, he needs to be able to tell if the safety is dropping to a half zone or single deep, if the mike is playing the RB, blitzing, filling a gap or sitting zone, and if his receivers made a clean break off the bump. All of this is one or two seconds.

It's the quickness of the second read that they all share. Unfortunately, it's something that's impossible to scout.

Nice breakdown...

Yes, Defenses deceive. What a QB sees pre-snap may or may not be true.

The snap read either confirms the pre-snap or not... and normally the movement of either the ILB or FS are the key.

Disagree that second read talent is impossible to scout. Where the QB looks (who he looks toward) during his drop can be seen. Then you grade the decision he makes.

Certainly easy to spot an 'F' student like Wheezy or DA.

@bringbackbrownie2 said:
And your boy Tannehill looks far from impressive. ..

Tannehill still has a ways to go to be sure, but still has the greatest upside of his draft. Based upon the progress he's made, I believe he will end up second to only Luck in his draft class.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@shep said:

Wow... you don't like Bridgewater?

I honestly don't have any problem with anybody hating on every QB draft (boards are notorious for that)... but I'm offering up the broader notion that most in and around the NFL see this as a very good QB draft if most or all of the eligible guys come out. Most also would bet you a thou or so that the Browns will be very aggressive about getting the guy they want with the first card they send to the podium.

I believe it was Higdon who said "sources" say the Browns like both Mariota and Manziel a lot. Part of that is because Bridgewater is one of the higher rated QBs to come out in the past five years and a lock for #1, probably to Jax. MANY mocks think TB will take Clowney because they like Glennon and intend to continue developing him.

But it's also because Chud wants a very mobile QB who can give him more options with the offense. I don't see them taking Mettenberger or Carr, frankly. Right now, they pick 11th and you're seeing a lot of Manziel there... but it's tough to find anybody who doesn't expect the Browns to be extremely aggressive trading up... partially because they said that's why they acquired the extra #1. They aren't being coy about it. There really are no mocks that DON'T have the Browns taking a QB.

It's not an obsession. It's just reading and watching and taking the most reasonable stance. I like Hoyer. So does Mary Kay. So does Grossi. Neither believes for a second the Browns won't draft a quarterback early in round 1.

Couch... you were joking on the math, right? I didn't say, "Find 12 GMs who say this is a great QB draft and then ask them if they think it's a great QB draft." Please say you were kiddin' around. I said poll a dozen GMs. The dozen you have access to, or randomly, and they'll tell you it's an excellent QB draft. They'll also tell you Bridgewater is a legit #1 overall pick at QB and there are probably four or five guys better than anybody in last year's draft.

And as Peter King said, if the draft were held today, both EJ Manuel and Geno Smith would make more money. Not because they've been the best ever but because they've looked legit. Manuel probably wouldn't get past the Browns.

I love how you speak on the behalf of those "in the know" on things that you have no way of knowing.

More than half of the GM's in the NFL think you're a QB pimp.

75% of the FO personnel of AFC West teams believe in the cheese goddesses of the planet Eurageneeria.

Six NFL GM's are afraid of the dark.

Hm, that does feel good.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@tour2ma said:

LOL... Hang in there, Shep.

I may disagree, but I admire your sticktoittiveness...

Nice breakdown...

Yes, Defenses deceive. What a QB sees pre-snap may or may not be true.

The snap read either confirms the pre-snap or not... and normally the movement of either the ILB or FS are the key.

Disagree that second read talent is impossible to scout. Where the QB looks (who he looks toward) during his drop can be seen. Then you grade the decision he makes.

Certainly easy to spot an 'F' student like Wheezy or DA.

Tannehill still has a ways to go to be sure, but still has the greatest upside of his draft. Based upon the progress he's made, I believe he will end up second to only Luck in his draft class.

When I said its impossible to scout, I meant that it's impossible to tell what the QB is reading. Sure, he can look at the right players, but we'll never really know what's going on in his head as he looks.

College QB's don't have to rely on this read as much, as broken plays are routinely turned into large gains and even TDs in college. At the high school and college level, QB's are taught that holding on to the ball longer and waiting for the receiver to break off his route is better than misreading then defense and firing early.

In the pros, it's a whole different game. Holding on to the ball gets you injured. There is no coming back from a busted play or missed opportunity (normally). You have to make the correct read.