Official Browns QB Prospect Discussion!
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I've always been infatuated with ball hawk, defensive captain safeties. Ed Reed has been one of my favorite players for the past decade.
I understand there are many molds of a quality safety, and that Gipson's mold is just as effective, but it's just not what I have in mind.
In my eyes, a successful defense needs three things: a badass ballhawk safety, an intelligent and hard hitting MLB and an effective pass rushing OLB. Those are primary needs. With those pieces in place, you can begin to focus on building a strong secondary and strong defensive line.
We have two of the three, and a solid safety who is neither a liability nor a playmaker. We have a solid line, a great CB, a solid #2 CB, a run supporting SS, and a plethora of rushers. We're one playmaker away from having the absolute best defense in the NFL.
We're at a point now where we can afford to take BPA almost all draft. We don't have a need so glaring that we will have to reach (QB excluded). If the BPA in the second is a safety, id like to see us go safety. If it's a TE, I would like to go TE.
I would rather see us amass quality talent than be right or wrong. Kansas City as the exception, the team with the most talent normally wins in the NFL. I'm tired of being the team with moxie and gumption, I want to be the team with top tier talent at all 53 spots.
Well, 50% of the equation is having the team with the top tier talent.....but the other 50% is superior coaching.
Well, 50% of the equation is having the team with the top tier talent.....but the other 50% is superior coaching.
I'd like to counter that point by presenting to you the Denver Broncos, who won with Jack Del Rio at the helm. The same Del Rio who posted only 3 winning seasons in 9 years in Jacksonville and has a career winning percentage of .489.
I would also like to present to you Nick Saban, who may be one of the greatest coaches of all time, and failed miserably in Miami due to having an absolutely garbage team.
Great coaching doesn't matter if you have a bad team. I'd be willing to bet that Mangini, Davis, and Crennel could all put together 8 win seasons in Denver.
The two go hand in hand, obviously. But having no on field talent is much harder to overcome.
You'd have to be a genius to win with a shitty team, and you'd have to be an idiot to lose with a great one.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Well, 50% of the equation is having the team with the top tier talent.....but the other 50% is superior coaching.
I'd like to counter that point by presenting to you the Denver Broncos, who won with Jack Del Rio at the helm. The same Del Rio who posted only 3 winning seasons in 9 years in Jacksonville and has a career winning percentage of .489.
I would also like to present to you Nick Saban, who may be one of the greatest coaches of all time, and failed miserably in Miami due to having an absolutely garbage team.
Great coaching doesn't matter if you have a bad team. I'd be willing to bet that Mangini, Davis, and Crennel could all put together 8 win seasons in Denver.
The two go hand in hand, obviously. But having no on field talent is much harder to overcome.
You'd have to be a genius to win with a shitty team, and you'd have to be an idiot to lose with a great one.
I'd like to counter that point by presenting to you the Denver Broncos, who won with Jack Del Rio at the helm. The same Del Rio who posted only 3 winning seasons in 9 years in Jacksonville and has a career winning percentage of .489.
I would also like to present to you Nick Saban, who may be one of the greatest coaches of all time, and failed miserably in Miami due to having an absolutely garbage team.
Great coaching doesn't matter if you have a bad team. I'd be willing to bet that Mangini, Davis, and Crennel could all put together 8 win seasons in Denver.
The two go hand in hand, obviously. But having no on field talent is much harder to overcome.
You'd have to be a genius to win with a shitty team, and you'd have to be an idiot to lose with a great one.
Yes, I agree with all of that.....but, you can have a team with somewhat lesser talent beat up on a team with more talent if the coaching is quality.
I mean, was there any doubt in your mind that a Lombardi, Landry, Shula and others could do this? Yes a great coach cannot make really crappy talent win.....but a crappy coach can make good talent lose.
I mean....just take Kansas City. Last year with Romeo they were 2-14. Now, with Andy Reid, they are 9-0....and there has not been all that much changeover in personell. The coach and the QB. (yes, a QB can make a big difference obviously, but often a QB is an extension of a coach)
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And after all that... you know it's coming... "the best teams are the teams with the best quarterbacks."
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Well, 50% of the equation is having the team with the top tier talent.....but the other 50% is superior coaching.
I'd like to counter that point by presenting to you the Denver Broncos, who won with Jack Del Rio at the helm. The same Del Rio who posted only 3 winning seasons in 9 years in Jacksonville and has a career winning percentage of .489.
I would also like to present to you Nick Saban, who may be one of the greatest coaches of all time, and failed miserably in Miami due to having an absolutely garbage team.
Great coaching doesn't matter if you have a bad team. I'd be willing to bet that Mangini, Davis, and Crennel could all put together 8 win seasons in Denver.
The two go hand in hand, obviously. But having no on field talent is much harder to overcome.
You'd have to be a genius to win with a shitty team, and you'd have to be an idiot to lose with a great one.
Jack Del Rio may have gotten credit for a win as head coach but Peyton Manning runs half the team.I'd like to counter that point by presenting to you the Denver Broncos, who won with Jack Del Rio at the helm. The same Del Rio who posted only 3 winning seasons in 9 years in Jacksonville and has a career winning percentage of .489.
I would also like to present to you Nick Saban, who may be one of the greatest coaches of all time, and failed miserably in Miami due to having an absolutely garbage team.
Great coaching doesn't matter if you have a bad team. I'd be willing to bet that Mangini, Davis, and Crennel could all put together 8 win seasons in Denver.
The two go hand in hand, obviously. But having no on field talent is much harder to overcome.
You'd have to be a genius to win with a shitty team, and you'd have to be an idiot to lose with a great one.
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Jack Del Rio may have gotten credit for a win as head coach but Peyton Manning runs half the team.I'd like to counter that point by presenting to you the Denver Broncos, who won with Jack Del Rio at the helm. The same Del Rio who posted only 3 winning seasons in 9 years in Jacksonville and has a career winning percentage of .489.
I would also like to present to you Nick Saban, who may be one of the greatest coaches of all time, and failed miserably in Miami due to having an absolutely garbage team.
Great coaching doesn't matter if you have a bad team. I'd be willing to bet that Mangini, Davis, and Crennel could all put together 8 win seasons in Denver.
The two go hand in hand, obviously. But having no on field talent is much harder to overcome.
You'd have to be a genius to win with a shitty team, and you'd have to be an idiot to lose with a great one.
XxDaBuckeyexX said:
Jack Del Rio may have gotten credit for a win as head coach but Peyton Manning runs half the team.
That's the point.
Bad coaches can win with great talent.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
XxDaBuckeyexX said:
Jack Del Rio may have gotten credit for a win as head coach but Peyton Manning runs half the team.
That's the point.
Bad coaches can win with great talent.
@westside-steve said:
That's the point.
Who?
WSS
Bad coaches can win with great talent.
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Couch, that is so cool and self-aware, gotta give you massive props. Honestly, if we could all be that self-effacing, life would be 20 times more fun.
Here's an article that praises Skrine and Gipson... but inadvertently points out that Gipson isn't covering great. He's getting a rep as a big hitter but he's ranked 33rd among safeties in completion percentage. Jauron loved his coverage abilities, said he could play corner, so that's a bit troublesome and might be part of our problem on third downs.
He needs to improve in that area (like Skrine)... or we need a safety who covers better. The hits? We got those. In today's NFL, you need safeties who can step up and cover a slot or hybrid TE.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/11/cleveland_browns_secondary_sho.html
Couch, that is so cool and self-aware, gotta give you massive props. Honestly, if we could all be that self-effacing, life would be 20 times more fun.
Here's an article that praises Skrine and Gipson... but inadvertently points out that Gipson isn't covering great. He's getting a rep as a big hitter but he's ranked 33rd among safeties in completion percentage. Jauron loved his coverage abilities, said he could play corner, so that's a bit troublesome and might be part of our problem on third downs.
He needs to improve in that area (like Skrine)... or we need a safety who covers better. The hits? We got those. In today's NFL, you need safeties who can step up and cover a slot or hybrid TE.
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/11/cleveland_browns_secondary_sho.html
Goes back to YOUR question... what could another play at that position do to add to the W column?... cover better. He has been the suspect on a couple 3rd downs I've seen at least...
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@westside-steve said:
That's the point.
Who?
WSS
Bad coaches can win with great talent.
Jack Del Rio was the aforementioned example.@westside-steve said:
That's the point.
Who?
WSS
Bad coaches can win with great talent.
Career win percentage of 48%, won last week by basically letting the Broncos just do what they do.
It's easier for a shitty coach with great talent to win than it is for a great coach with shitty talent.
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You just said it Shep- the College game and Pro game are two different animals. Johnny Football relies on his legs (panics if you will) @ the first sign of pressure. Not buying your "he's standing in the pocket more" mantra. He's an elusive runner alright- but in the Pro game you need be unelusive but once, and your season- or career is over. Me and Mik are seeing the same thing- Manziel already has gotten dinged by the college lightweights- when Ngata sits on him, it's a trip to the hospital with multiple broken ribs.
Yeah, he looked pretty good against Alabama- how many of those guys on the Tide's roster are going to be playing on Sunday? Their entire front seven? If you haven't noticed, their secondary is a mess this year. Ever think Johnny Football scrambles around because he can't pre-read a college defense? It gets 10X tougher in the pros.
Wow Alabama only has the 11 rank passing defense in the FBS. Man I would hate to think how good they might be if the secondary wasn't in such a mess.
Number of teams that have thrown for 250 yards or more against Alabama 1.
Number of teams that have scored more than 17 points against Alabama 1.
Name the player and team that Alabama spent 6+ months preparing for this off season? Johnny Manziel and Texas A&M.
I came into the season not liking Manziel at all but man the more I watch him the more I like the way he plays. This dude isn't QBing for a team that gives up like 15 points a game he has to score points.. Texas A&M has one of the worst defense in the whole FBS.
Everyone says the SEC is the be all end all for football, the toughest conference there is and yet every week Manziel is tearing it up.
I came into the season not liking Manziel at all but man the more I watch him the more I like the way he plays. This dude isn't QBing for a team that gives up like 15 points a game he has to score points..
Much as you, I was a hater.. then grew enamoured... Now?
I'm cooling on Johnny as our QB for two reasons:
1. The team we are close to being is only going to give up 15 points or so a game. We won't need a gunslinger and I do not think Johnny has it in him to "dial back" his aggression (recklessness)... not for a few seasons anyway. This is the basis for the Favre comparison I made a couple days ago.
2. I was seeing Johnny as one of those QBs who was smart enough to avoid hits while on the run, e.g., Russell Wilson. Then in the past couple games he took some big hits. I now think significant injury awaits him in the NFL.
It doesn't have to make sense, I'm going to be stubborn on this. I have to, after all of the garbage I talked about him in the offseason.
I'm not sure stubborn is allowed here...
Here's an article that praises Skrine and Gipson...
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/11/cleveland_browns_secondary_sho.html
Good article... shows that putting in the hours studying tape is a key to playing well at the NFL level.
I really wish there was a free site with the pass defense metrics quoted in the article
In my eyes, a successful defense needs three things: a badass ballhawk safety, an intelligent and hard hitting MLB and an effective pass rushing OLB. Those are primary needs. With those pieces in place, you can begin to focus on building a strong secondary and strong defensive line.
We have two of the three, and a solid safety who is neither a liability nor a playmaker. We have a solid line, a great CB, a solid #2 CB, a run supporting SS, and a plethora of rushers. We're one playmaker away from having the absolute best defense in the NFL.
We're at a point now where we can afford to take BPA almost all draft. We don't have a need so glaring that we will have to reach (QB excluded). If the BPA in the second is a safety, id like to see us go safety. If it's a TE, I would like to go TE.
Also a Reed fan. Flip a coin between he and Ronnie Lott. Ed had more big years; Ronnie had more years. Seems both end their careers with the Jets...
Kinda agree on your 3 keys. If talking 3-4, then to your three I have to add the NT for a total of four. For a 4-3 I can stay with 3, but would sub a pass rushing DE for your OLB. Clearly we have our NT, but I think we are still shy both an ILB and an OLB from being a dominant D.
On the BPA approach... I'm right there with you. Hopped on that bandwagon a week or so ago. And with my McCarron fettish I don't even exclude the QB position.
And after all that... you know it's coming... "the best teams are the teams with the best quarterbacks."
Which is appropriate for this thread... and this thread only!!!Awful lot of saftey talk for a QB thread lately...
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XxDaBuckeyexX said:
Jack Del Rio may have gotten credit for a win as head coach but Peyton Manning runs half the team.
That's the point.
Bad coaches can win with great talent.
That's the point.
Bad coaches can win with great talent.
And great talent can lose with bad coaching. Again, I use the KC Chiefs as Exhibit A.
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Actually, the Chiefs had talent everywhere but where it matters most by miles, quarterback. Then they got a competent one (and that's about all he is this year, competent) and they're winning. Much like us.
I don't see Smith or Dalton in a Super Bowl, though, and I'm a Smith fan. Ditto McCarron and Murray. Probably Hoyer, too. I expect the Broncos to dismantle the Chiefs. Hell, we should've beaten them.
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Actually, the Chiefs had talent everywhere but where it matters most by miles, quarterback. Then they got a competent one (and that's about all he is this year, competent) and they're winning. Much like us.
I don't see Smith or Dalton in a Super Bowl, though, and I'm a Smith fan. Ditto McCarron and Murray. Probably Hoyer, too. I expect the Broncos to dismantle the Chiefs. Hell, we should've beaten them.
Actually, the Chiefs had talent everywhere but where it matters most by miles, quarterback. Then they got a competent one (and that's about all he is this year, competent) and they're winning. Much like us.
I don't see Smith or Dalton in a Super Bowl, though, and I'm a Smith fan. Ditto McCarron and Murray. Probably Hoyer, too. I expect the Broncos to dismantle the Chiefs. Hell, we should've beaten them.
Manning's health is an issue in that game.
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For sure, but something tells me he'll be fine. He doesn't need to practice (as he just said) so he can pretty much spend the week healing. He doesn't run so as long as he can plant and throw, he's good.
It's gonna be a situation where Alex Smith has to make plays... which he's proven he can do, more than once. But he still seems a little uncomfortable in this offense. Dude was literally the most accurate passer in the NFL last year but isn't anywhere near those numbers now. It's weird.
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For sure, but something tells me he'll be fine. He doesn't need to practice (as he just said) so he can pretty much spend the week healing. He doesn't run so as long as he can plant and throw, he's good.
It's gonna be a situation where Alex Smith has to make plays... which he's proven he can do, more than once. But he still seems a little uncomfortable in this offense. Dude was literally the most accurate passer in the NFL last year but isn't anywhere near those numbers now. It's weird.
For sure, but something tells me he'll be fine. He doesn't need to practice (as he just said) so he can pretty much spend the week healing. He doesn't run so as long as he can plant and throw, he's good.
It's gonna be a situation where Alex Smith has to make plays... which he's proven he can do, more than once. But he still seems a little uncomfortable in this offense. Dude was literally the most accurate passer in the NFL last year but isn't anywhere near those numbers now. It's weird.
If there was ever a game to worry about Manning being injured, it's this one.
Division rivals, playing for first, Manning has an injured ankle and the Chiefs have the best pass rushing defense in the league.
It's almost like a movie.
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Actually, the Chiefs had talent everywhere but where it matters most by miles, quarterback. Then they got a competent one (and that's about all he is this year, competent) and they're winning. Much like us.
I don't see Smith or Dalton in a Super Bowl, though, and I'm a Smith fan. Ditto McCarron and Murray. Probably Hoyer, too. I expect the Broncos to dismantle the Chiefs. Hell, we should've beaten them.
Actually, the Chiefs had talent everywhere but where it matters most by miles, quarterback. Then they got a competent one (and that's about all he is this year, competent) and they're winning. Much like us.
I don't see Smith or Dalton in a Super Bowl, though, and I'm a Smith fan. Ditto McCarron and Murray. Probably Hoyer, too. I expect the Broncos to dismantle the Chiefs. Hell, we should've beaten them.
that's because they sucked for 10 years and had #1 top ten picks who they scored on for those many years.
yes, all they needed was a QB and some offensive weapons. too bad bowe blows and smokes.
andy reid fell into the perfect head coaching position. but it shows you how bitched-out they are (the FO and coaching staff) to play bowe given his problems.
think andy's sweating in his jockeys.
god damn right.
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I don't know or care enough about the Chiefs history but I kind of wonder how many of those high pics are still there and developing. Unlike the Cleveland Browns who usually have a new front office and coaching staff with every cycle of the moon who all feel the need to purge the entire draft of their predecessors.
WSS
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We've had mostly good drafts, which is why so much of our team is homegrown, including UDFAs: Thomas, Mack, Lauvao, Schwartz, Gordon, Little, Benjamin, Cameron, Kiki, Taylor, Ruben, DQJ, Robertson (kind of), Haden, Skrine, Gipson, Ward, McFadden, Bryant.
We just whiffed on the 2012 first round. Badly. But we've accumulated a lot of drafted or UDFA talent everywhere but QB and RB. This team is really built for the long haul, very much like the Steelers.
And that's prior to an offseason teed up to be epic, with 10 picks and tons of cash. I think the next 10 years will be a fun time to be a Browns fan, including stadium and uniform upgrades. I think we'll be relevant.
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