Official Browns QB Prospect Discussion!
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Well, Couch. That post had a whiff of phallus to it!!
Just about every year, especially lately, very good to great starting quarterbacks have come into the league. The biggest exception is probably that Russell-Quinn-Tebow-Clausen year. What's really weird is that if Quinn had agreed to take #5 money, he would've been taken #1... so they say.
Of course there are misses. The one certain thing is that you have to try. You have to take the bat off your shoulder. You absolutely can't hit a home run without swinging. As far as getting you Guy at QB, you just have to swing again. And again. Because without one, you don't matter. At all.
(Sorry, Couch. I know I should never vaguely reference what "they" say, or at least very specifically and carefully qualify that when I say what the brass thinks it's based on an accumulation of smaller quotes and signs in the draft room, etc., rather than one of them actually calling me. Can we just assume that from now on and you'll cease with the phallus-ey posts? Graci.)
Well, Couch. That post had a whiff of phallus to it!!
Just about every year, especially lately, very good to great starting quarterbacks have come into the league. The biggest exception is probably that Russell-Quinn-Tebow-Clausen year. What's really weird is that if Quinn had agreed to take #5 money, he would've been taken #1... so they say.
Of course there are misses. The one certain thing is that you have to try. You have to take the bat off your shoulder. You absolutely can't hit a home run without swinging. As far as getting you Guy at QB, you just have to swing again. And again. Because without one, you don't matter. At all.
(Sorry, Couch. I know I should never vaguely reference what "they" say, or at least very specifically and carefully qualify that when I say what the brass thinks it's based on an accumulation of smaller quotes and signs in the draft room, etc., rather than one of them actually calling me. Can we just assume that from now on and you'll cease with the phallus-ey posts? Graci.)
Well, Couch. That post had a whiff of phallus to it!!
Just about every year, especially lately, very good to great starting quarterbacks have come into the league. The biggest exception is probably that Russell-Quinn-Tebow-Clausen year. What's really weird is that if Quinn had agreed to take #5 money, he would've been taken #1... so they say.
Of course there are misses. The one certain thing is that you have to try. You have to take the bat off your shoulder. You absolutely can't hit a home run without swinging. As far as getting you Guy at QB, you just have to swing again. And again. Because without one, you don't matter. At all.
(Sorry, Couch. I know I should never vaguely reference what "they" say, or at least very specifically and carefully qualify that when I say what the brass thinks it's based on an accumulation of smaller quotes and signs in the draft room, etc., rather than one of them actually calling me. Can we just assume that from now on and you'll cease with the phallus-ey posts? Graci.)
My intention wasn't to be a dick. It was merely to tell you that you don't need to include what "they" say. We all are capable of reading what "they" say when we want to read it. We want to hear what "you" have to say.
You are a good poster with valid points nearly all of the time. Unfortunately, those valid points get lost when you say things like "the FO thinks this...".
You seem to infer things and then pass them off as fact when thats not the case. You keep claiming that it's a foregone conclusion that our FO wants to trade up when, based off actual quotes and anecdotes, it's been proven that Banner and Co. is saying the exact opposite.
Basically, the FO has said nothing about trading up as of late. If you have an example otherwise, I'd be glad to see it. But, until then, it seems safe to assume that we won't trade up, as there is nobody worth trading up and that, given the previous example, trading up rarely works.
Nobody is disagreeing that we have to take a QB. Nobody is even disagreeing that we have to take a first round QB. What we're saying is that you don't have to trade up to get one, especially in this draft.
Again, I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just trying to be helpful. I appreciate what you contribute.
And Gip, you're half correct. Quinn is on an NFL roster. It's just not KC's, its St. Louis'. I apologize for the error, I just assumed he was done. It's still an overwhelming stat, regardless.
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Well, Couch. That post had a whiff of phallus to it!!
Just about every year, especially lately, very good to great starting quarterbacks have come into the league. The biggest exception is probably that Russell-Quinn-Tebow-Clausen year. What's really weird is that if Quinn had agreed to take #5 money, he would've been taken #1... so they say.
Of course there are misses. The one certain thing is that you have to try. You have to take the bat off your shoulder. You absolutely can't hit a home run without swinging. As far as getting you Guy at QB, you just have to swing again. And again. Because without one, you don't matter. At all.
(Sorry, Couch. I know I should never vaguely reference what "they" say, or at least very specifically and carefully qualify that when I say what the brass thinks it's based on an accumulation of smaller quotes and signs in the draft room, etc., rather than one of them actually calling me. Can we just assume that from now on and you'll cease with the phallus-ey posts? Graci.)
Well, Couch. That post had a whiff of phallus to it!!
Just about every year, especially lately, very good to great starting quarterbacks have come into the league. The biggest exception is probably that Russell-Quinn-Tebow-Clausen year. What's really weird is that if Quinn had agreed to take #5 money, he would've been taken #1... so they say.
Of course there are misses. The one certain thing is that you have to try. You have to take the bat off your shoulder. You absolutely can't hit a home run without swinging. As far as getting you Guy at QB, you just have to swing again. And again. Because without one, you don't matter. At all.
(Sorry, Couch. I know I should never vaguely reference what "they" say, or at least very specifically and carefully qualify that when I say what the brass thinks it's based on an accumulation of smaller quotes and signs in the draft room, etc., rather than one of them actually calling me. Can we just assume that from now on and you'll cease with the phallus-ey posts? Graci.)
My intention wasn't to be a dick. It was merely to tell you that you don't need to include what "they" say. We all are capable of reading what "they" say when we want to read it. We want to hear what "you" have to say.
You are a good poster with valid points nearly all of the time. Unfortunately, those valid points get lost when you say things like "the FO thinks this...".
You seem to infer things and then pass them off as fact when thats not the case. You keep claiming that it's a foregone conclusion that our FO wants to trade up when, based off actual quotes and anecdotes, it's been proven that Banner and Co. is saying the exact opposite.
Basically, the FO has said nothing about trading up as of late. If you have an example otherwise, I'd be glad to see it. But, until then, it seems safe to assume that we won't trade up, as there is nobody worth trading up and that, given the previous example, trading up rarely works.
Nobody is disagreeing that we have to take a QB. Nobody is even disagreeing that we have to take a first round QB. What we're saying is that you don't have to trade up to get one, especially in this draft.
Again, I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just trying to be helpful. I appreciate what you contribute.
And Gip, you're half correct. Quinn is on an NFL roster. It's just not KC's, its St. Louis'. I apologize for the error, I just assumed he was done. It's still an overwhelming stat, regardless.
And Gip, you're half correct. Quinn is on an NFL roster. It's just not KC's, its St. Louis'. I apologize for the error, I just assumed he was done.
I think being a backup to Kellen Clemens is the equivalent of being "done".
Zombo
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I don't think anybody MEANS to "force the pick." At the time, at least, they believed it was the right thing to do. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But going all in for the QB in today's league is pretty commonly accepted as the right thing to do. If you don't have The Guy, you desperately need The Guy and it's almost impossible to cap the value of The Guy.
I mean, Brady was a happy accident, but is Belicheck really a genius without him? Was he before? Will he be after? I don't know. Maybe we'll never know.
Bottom line: QB is the first priority and whatever's second (left tackle or pass rusher, neither of which we need) is REALLY down the line. This brass thinks the 2012 draft showed a complete lack of understanding of the how you win in today's NFL, prioritizing a running back over a quarterback. I've heard about 5,000 times since that everybody would've taken Tannehill and Martin (my draft), but I don't recall that much uproar when the Browns actually took Richardson.
But the real point is that this brass hated that draft and they aren't likely to recreate it. I wouldn't put a dime on the quarterback coming second. Or a penny.
Neither would I. But the RG III experiment shows if you go "all in" you had damn better be right- or you're screwed beyond belief. However- "The Guy" the "REAL" guy is damn hard to come by. How many are there in the NFL Shep? Multi-time Pro Bowlers? Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers and who else? Plenty of second tier guys maybe knocking on the door- but not yet in my book. Good enough to win with the right talent- the other Manning, Stafford, Flacco.
Quit acting like you can go into the back yard and just pick one off a tree. If it was so damn easy- after 20 tries, the Browns would have found one by dumb luck. I don't have another 5 years of patience to wait out another massive qb screw up.
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For some reason the photo is not coming up for me.
I've been unable to upload any photos from the 'reply box' also
I've been unable to upload any photos from the 'reply box' also
id don't know if you know this already BUT you have to upload your photo to an outside hosting site like imageshack. you upload it, then copy the direct link (it'll show a bunch of info below the photo you uploaded and one says direct. well copy that then in the reply box on the board you have to click on the little icon above in the border that looks like a picture of a mountain (hold your cursor over it for a sec and it will say 'insert image'. click on that icon and a window asking for an url will pop up and you paste that direct link info into that. your photo should show up.
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And Gip, you're half correct. Quinn is on an NFL roster. It's just not KC's, its St. Louis'. I apologize for the error, I just assumed he was done. It's still an overwhelming stat, regardless.
Well, somewhere in the state of Mizzery.
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I think somebody else put it this way: The Browns don't want to draft 10 guys. That wasn't really the point of adding extra picks. They have the 2nd youngest team in the NFL as it is. They'd certainly like to add some experience and maturity in free agency, young-ish veterans and key contributors like Kruger and Bryant. Probably a proven RG, a quality WR, a legit CB with size... something like that.
The point of adding picks was to create possibilities. I doubt we'll draft more than 6 or 7 guys, but higher than our current positions. They can go get players they covet. Last year, we settled at corner after that really fast guy was taken just ahead of us... and then missed out on Vance McDonald.
EDIT: Robert Alford, taken late 2nd by Falcons, rumored to have fried the panties of the Browns' brass. He has 17 tackles, 2 picks, and 6 PDs.
I think somebody else put it this way: The Browns don't want to draft 10 guys. That wasn't really the point of adding extra picks.
The point of adding picks was to create possibilities.
The point was they did not know what they had and what they needed. I speculated as much in my post-draft thread and Banner said so in an interview not a week later. He did not sorta say so; he said it exactly.
So picks were amassed because they did not know what to spend them on.
Now they sorta know... and a QB will be in the mix. However at what cost is still TBD.
Any franchise should always be looking to draft/ sign their next QB. What they spend depends upon their current circumstance. Our current circumstance is muddledby Hoyer's status and incomplete collegiate resumes.
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TCPO...
You're missing the fact that the guy who would pull the trigger on the trades, is the f***ing CEO. Who is he going to fire if he makes the wrong pick?? himself?? You think Haslam will fire him?? That's a joke. Job security is not the problem.
If they trade up, it will be to make sure they don't miss the next great. Passing on a guy who turns out great, looks worse than being aggressive and having it flop...
Either way. Can't we at least agree that we need a new QB on this roster...? Or, are there really people here willing to go into next season riding the Hoyer train... WOW...
I'm positive Haslam would fire him. Haslam is a bottom line guy. If the Browns aren't winning, the fans aren't happy. If the fans aren't happy, Haslam's earning potential takes a hit.
There's no doubt in my mind Haslam would fire him.
I have no problem trading up to get the next great. The problem is, I don't see a great anywhere in the draft. I see about five guys who have an equal stake at being either great or garbage. To me, that's not worth a trade up.
I'm willing to go into next season riding the Hoyer train if, and only if, we take a QB with our late first, second, or early third and let him sit and learn.
I have no problem trading up to get the next great. The problem is, I don't see a great anywhere in the draft. I see about five guys who have an equal stake at being either great or garbage. To me, that's not worth a trade up.
I'm willing to go into next season riding the Hoyer train if, and only if, we take a QB with our late first, second, or early third and let him sit and learn.
Agree... and if you strongly believe in one (or more) of those five, then by all means take him, if he falls to you. But...
The 1st round is an entirely different world of expectations than the 3rd where the Seahawks' FO can say, "Russell Wilson has a pretty good chance of being a pretty good NFL QB." Which is in turn a different world from the 6th where someone in the Pats' FO said, "There's just something about this kid, Brady, that makes me think he might have a surprise upside. Let's take a chance on him."
The question is how much do you have to believe in a prospect to spend a mid-1st round pick on him?
What odds on him being your next starter do you need to pull the trigger?
How much do the odds drop to spend a late-1st round pick?
I think the point being made here is that while the D is elite, or close to, they still couldn't help us overcome the giant turd laid by offence and ST.
Counterpoint remaining that our D is not yet "elite".
Good? Yes.
Very Good? Yes, on some days.
Great? No, not yet...
And elite is somewhere on the far side of "great".
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By a ton of measures, it's certainly one of the league's best defenses. We can probably settle on that.
It's a great quarterback draft and we'll be taking one with our earliest pick. May or may not include a trade up. Bank it. If Hoyer didn't get injured... if he'd played all year and played great? Different story. But it didn't play out that way.
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It's certainly not like all the quarterbacks are equal and you take the one that falls to you. If that were the case, you wouldn't need a scouting department at all. The notion that they're all equally likely to succeed is wrong. The stats on QBs drafted after pick #37 are absolutely dreadful. It's beyond a needle in a haystack. It's a needle in the ocean.
It was like 15 years between Brady and Wilson, guys drafted after round 2 who succeeded for their original team over a period of time... and that's assuming Wilson WILL. It's rare. Super rare. Raw.
The Browns brass and scouting department is certainly being charged with finding the best and most appropriate quarterback for what they want to do. The answer might be Bridgewater, who's unavailable. Then you go to #2. Who is it? Can we get him? And so on. And the guy the Browns love might not be the guy most of the other teams love... meaning he might be there at 9 (current position) without a trade-up. It's certainly fluid, but Manziel is commonly going at #5 to the Vikings now.
By draft time, that might be Carr. Or Petty. It's such a strong QB draft (near the top at least) that I expect an unusual amount of movement. Tajh Boyd plummeted but I have a gut he has a rise left in him.
OK, yes, I agree with you on that. But if you read Banner's most recent comments- they're not going to force the pick at the cost of screwing up the potential for long term success. Speaking of, RG III to the Redskins- is looking more and more like the Deadskins have done exactly that. My crystal ball predicts a 10 loss season for Washington with games & (losses) coming up against the 49ers, Chiefs, and at least one more within the division- and golly gee, they don't have a first round pick this year to fill in one of the many gaping holes on the team. After Andrew Luck, Griffin was everyone's Flavor of the Month Maybe he can turn it around- he certainly has the talent- .but he has to stay healthy. He might just get Carr-ted out of the League.
The draft is still six months away, I'll take Banner at his word that they're doing due diligence on every quarterback out there that might be an improvement over what we have. & it's way too early to say on how it's all going to shake out.
Speaking of, RG III to the Redskins- is looking more and more like the Deadskins have done exactly that.
hoorta, I believe you have just solved that franchise's name problem...
Bottom line: QB is the first priority and whatever's second (left tackle or pass rusher, neither of which we need) is REALLY down the line. This brass thinks the 2012 draft showed a complete lack of understanding of the how you win in today's NFL, prioritizing a running back over a quarterback. I've heard about 5,000 times since that everybody would've taken Tannehill and Martin (my draft), but I don't recall that much uproar when the Browns actually took Richardson.
But the real point is that this brass hated that draft and they aren't likely to recreate it. I wouldn't put a dime on the quarterback coming second. Or a penny.
There you go again... brass this and that...
For the record:
- I was not in favor of a Tannehill/ Martin draft. I would not pull the trigger on Tannehill at #4 overall then, and still would not today.
- However, I had Martin in my mock with my 2nd #1...
- There was considerable "uproar" over the TR pick. I know. I was part of it.
A QB may well come first, but I'll put a dime on us not trading up for one...
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I don't think anybody MEANS to "force the pick." At the time, at least, they believed it was the right thing to do. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But going all in for the QB in today's league is pretty commonly accepted as the right thing to do. If you don't have The Guy, you desperately need The Guy and it's almost impossible to cap the value of The Guy.
I mean, Brady was a happy accident, but is Belicheck really a genius without him? Was he before? Will he be after? I don't know. Maybe we'll never know.
Bottom line: QB is the first priority and whatever's second (left tackle or pass rusher, neither of which we need) is REALLY down the line. This brass thinks the 2012 draft showed a complete lack of understanding of the how you win in today's NFL, prioritizing a running back over a quarterback. I've heard about 5,000 times since that everybody would've taken Tannehill and Martin (my draft), but I don't recall that much uproar when the Browns actually took Richardson.
But the real point is that this brass hated that draft and they aren't likely to recreate it. I wouldn't put a dime on the quarterback coming second. Or a penny.
You don't know what this brass thinks. Stop saying you do. Even when you quote them, you misquote them. You don't have to say "this brass thinks", "in every GM's opinion", "it's common knowledge among GM's", etc. You make great points and are more learned than many in terms of the NFL, you don't have to qualify your opinions by trying to sound like an insider. Adding those little phrases and qualifiers delegitimizes your point and I feel it alienates a lot of posters, hence the reason some are arguing with what I feel we all know to be common knowledge: we need a QB. Just post what you feel, not what you think the FO thinks.
Here's a quick list of first round QB's that have played/started this season, complete with when they were drafted and a very short synopsis of their careers. Players underlined are part of a draft day trade. Players italicized are no longer on teams that drafted them.
Peyton Manning- Round 1 Pick 1- Opening day starter. Manning will go down as one of the, if not the, best QB's to play the game. HOF career.
Cam Newton- Round 1 Pick 1- Opening day starter. Spectacular rookie season, succumbed to sophomore slump. Solid to good player with very high potential.
Andrew Luck- Round 1 Pick 1- Opening day starter. Good to great player with extremely high potential.
Matthew Stafford- Round 1 Pick 1- Opening day starter. Good player.
Sam Bradford- Round 1 Pick 1- Opening day starter. Somewhat of a disappointment. Mediocre to solid player.
Alex Smith- Round 1 Pick 1- Rocky rookie season. Rocky sophomore season. Solid player.
Eli Manning- Round 1 Pick 1- Opening day starter, part of very strong QB class. Solid to good player.
Carson Palmer- Round 1 Pick 1- Didn't play at all his rookie year. Solid career.
Robert Griffin III- Round 1 Pick 2- Washington gave away two future first round picks and a second round pick to nab RG3. Good player with high ceiling.
Matt Ryan- Round 1 Pick 3- Opening day starter. Solid to good player.
Philip Rivers- Round 1 Pick 4- Didn't become full time starter for two years. Solid to good player.
Mark Sanchez- Round 1 Pick 5- Jets traded first and second round pick, plus three players, to move up and take Sanchez. Sanchez has had quite a rocky career and currently finds himself a second string quarterback behind second round rookie Geno Smith. Mediocre player.
Jake Locker- Round 1 Pick 8- Locker was considered a consensus first overall pick throughout his last collegiate season, but his value dropped before, and during the Combine. Considered a high value pick at 8. Mediocre player with decent potential.
Ryan Tannehill- Round 1 Pick 8- Tannehill was considered a raw talent coming into the NFL Draft. Many analysts considered him to be more of a developmental first rounder and not an immediate starter, yet the Dolphins made him their opening day starter. Mediocre player with solid potential.
Blaine Gabbert- Round 1 Pick 10- The Jaguars swapped first round picks and surrendered their second round pick to move up six places and take Gabbert. Gabbert has been a monumental disappointment and has since lost his starting job to Chad Henne. Poor player.
Ben Roethlisberger- Round 1 Pick 11- Original plan was to have Roethlisberger sit and learn, but Maddox got injured Week 2. Roethlisberger went undefeated in the regular season, led team to AFC Championship. Great player, HOF career.
Jay Cutler- Round 1 Pick 11- The Broncos surrendered their third round pick and swapped first rounders to move up four spots and take Cutler. Cutler has a vast amount of talent but is inconsistent and is known to have a bad personality. Solid player.
Christian Ponder- Round 1 Pick 12- Considered a reach by all analysts, Ponder's career has been lackluster to say the least. Mediocre player with limited upside.
E.J. Manuel- Round 1 Pick 16- The Bills traded down from 8 to 16, picked up a second and seventh round pick, and swapped third rounders. They got the QB they wanted, plus a second round pick, a higher third round pick and a seventh round pick. Manuel is a raw talent with an inconsistent arm, fantastic tangibles and even better intangibles. Opening day starter. Mediocre player with very high potential.
Josh Freeman- Round 1 PIck 17- The third QB picked in the 2009 NFL Draft, Freeman was considered by many to have the highest upside but was also the rawest talent. Sat on the bench for half of the season before becoming starter. Mediocre player with high potential.
Joe Flacco- Round 1 Pick 18- Baltimore traded down from 8 to 26, picked up two third round picks and a fourth round pick, then used a third rounder and a sixth rounder to trade back up to 18. They got the QB they wanted, plus an additional third rounder and fourth rounder. Good player with HOF potential.
Brandon Weeden- Round 1 Pick 22- It is widely believed that the Browns FO panicked in their selection of Weeden. He's been a disappointment and has lost his starting job to both Brian Hoyer and Jason Campbell this season. Poor to mediocre player.
Aaron Rodgers- Round 1 Pick 24- Rodgers was thought to be the best QB in the draft, yet after Alex Smith was taken first overall, Rodgers saw his stock slide. He was eventually taken at 24 and sat behind Brett Favre for a while. Great player, HOF career.
Jason Campbell- Round 1 Pick 25- The Washington Redskins surrendered a third round pick in 2005, plus future first and fourth round pick to trade back into the first and get Campbell. Campbell's career has been mediocre at best. He has a great amount of talent but has never put it together in a full season. Poor to mediocre player.
Drew Brees- Round 1 Pick 32- Technically a second round pick, Brees was taken by the Chargers with the 32nd overall pick. He's gone on to be a fantastic NFL QB. Great player, HOF career.
What's interesting to me is that, of the trade ups involving top 10 picks, two of the three listed don't even start anymore. Furthermore, of the first overall picks to start this NFL season, none of them were involved in trades. They were all taken by teams with their regular picks. Of the seven trades listed, two aren't starting, two are injured, one is having a bad year and one was a backup to start this season. Flacco is the only one who has been a consistent starter for his entire career, and even he has been accused of being a bottom tier "elite" QB.
There are 5 first round NFL QB's taken in last 7 years that don't even find themselves on NFL rosters anymore. (Leinart, Young, Russell, Tebow, Quinn).
What this shows me is that there's no right way to get a QB...but there are plenty of wrong ways. Drafting QB's is a crapshoot. You can trade up and take one in the top 10 and get RG3, Gabbert or Sanchez. You can trade up and get one in the middle to late first round and get Flacco or Campbell. You can let one fall to you and get a Rodgers or a Quinn. You can take one first overall and get a Manning or a Bradford. You can take a raw prospect and get a Tannehill or a Freeman. You can take a small school guy with great numbers and get a Locker or a Roethlisberger.
It seems the best way to take a QB is to determine which attributes are valued highest by you and your staff, and then take the QB who fits that mold best. Personally, I don't see us taking a player like Manziel no matter what his stats are or how many Heismans he wins. I don't see us taking Mariota simply because he won't be there when we pick and he doesn't warrant a trade up.
I see us either taking a Hundley or a Mettenberger with our first overall pick, Carr with our second first rounder, or a player like Blake Bortles or Logan Thomas in the middle rounds. All of those QB's share similar attributes: they are large bodied, mobile, with strong arms and good intangibles. They are lacking in footwork and mechanics- things Norv Turner can teach in his sleep.
Here's a quick list of first round QB's that have played/started this season, complete with when they were drafted and a very short synopsis of their careers. Players underlined are part of a draft day trade. Players italicized are no longer on teams that drafted them.
What's interesting to me is that, of the trade ups involving top 10 picks, two of the three listed don't even start anymore. Furthermore, of the first overall picks to start this NFL season, none of them were involved in trades. They were all taken by teams with their regular picks. Of the seven trades listed, two aren't starting, two are injured, one is having a bad year and one was a backup to start this season. Flacco is the only one who has been a consistent starter for his entire career, and even he has been accused of being a bottom tier "elite" QB.
What this shows me is that there's no right way to get a QB...but there are plenty of wrong ways. Drafting QB's is a crapshoot. You can trade up and take one in the top 10 and get RG3, Gabbert or Sanchez. You can trade up and get one in the middle to late first round and get Flacco or Campbell. You can let one fall to you and get a Rodgers or a Quinn. You can take one first overall and get a Manning or a Bradford. You can take a raw prospect and get a Tannehill or a Freeman. You can take a small school guy with great numbers and get a Locker or a Roethlisberger.
I see us either taking a Hundley or a Mettenberger with our first overall pick, Carr with our second first rounder, or a player like Blake Bortles or Logan Thomas in the middle rounds. All of those QB's share similar attributes: they are large bodied, mobile, with strong arms and good intangibles. They are lacking in footwork and mechanics- things Norv Turner can teach in his sleep.
Really interesting exercise with fascinating result... made even more so by the apparent surprise it registered with you... well done.
It would seem that the old adage about the perils of drafting for need are in full display in your exercise. And it stands to reason that the peril is even greater around the most coveted QB position creating a panic factor, which we succumbed to twice in Messrs Weeden and Quinn. (And Quinn did not fall to us, we traded back up into the 1st to grab him.)
Going to take issue with your last point though. I think it is very hard to teach proper mechanics to a QB who has been doing it "his way" for 7 or 8 years at the HS and College level. Things get ingrained and even if the player manages to correct them in practice, they tend to come out under game pressure.
I rarely slice on the driving range any more, but every once in a while in a round that one-time constant companion drops in to say hello.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Well, Couch. That post had a whiff of phallus to it!!
Just about every year, especially lately, very good to great starting quarterbacks have come into the league. The biggest exception is probably that Russell-Quinn-Tebow-Clausen year. What's really weird is that if Quinn had agreed to take #5 money, he would've been taken #1... so they say.
Of course there are misses. The one certain thing is that you have to try. You have to take the bat off your shoulder. You absolutely can't hit a home run without swinging. As far as getting you Guy at QB, you just have to swing again. And again. Because without one, you don't matter. At all.
(Sorry, Couch. I know I should never vaguely reference what "they" say, or at least very specifically and carefully qualify that when I say what the brass thinks it's based on an accumulation of smaller quotes and signs in the draft room, etc., rather than one of them actually calling me. Can we just assume that from now on and you'll cease with the phallus-ey posts? Graci.)
Of course there are misses. The one certain thing is that you have to try. You have to take the bat off your shoulder. You absolutely can't hit a home run without swinging. As far as getting you Guy at QB, you just have to swing again. And again. Because without one, you don't matter. At all.
The issue is not continuing to swing; it's the cumulative cost of each swing. If by the time you get your guy the rest of your team is in shambles, then you are no better off.
You simply cannot afford to swing and miss in the 1st round repeatedly.
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Here's a quick list of first round QB's that have played/started this season, complete with when they were drafted and a very short synopsis of their careers. Players underlined are part of a draft day trade. Players italicized are no longer on teams that drafted them.
What's interesting to me is that, of the trade ups involving top 10 picks, two of the three listed don't even start anymore. Furthermore, of the first overall picks to start this NFL season, none of them were involved in trades. They were all taken by teams with their regular picks. Of the seven trades listed, two aren't starting, two are injured, one is having a bad year and one was a backup to start this season. Flacco is the only one who has been a consistent starter for his entire career, and even he has been accused of being a bottom tier "elite" QB.
What this shows me is that there's no right way to get a QB...but there are plenty of wrong ways. Drafting QB's is a crapshoot. You can trade up and take one in the top 10 and get RG3, Gabbert or Sanchez. You can trade up and get one in the middle to late first round and get Flacco or Campbell. You can let one fall to you and get a Rodgers or a Quinn. You can take one first overall and get a Manning or a Bradford. You can take a raw prospect and get a Tannehill or a Freeman. You can take a small school guy with great numbers and get a Locker or a Roethlisberger.
I see us either taking a Hundley or a Mettenberger with our first overall pick, Carr with our second first rounder, or a player like Blake Bortles or Logan Thomas in the middle rounds. All of those QB's share similar attributes: they are large bodied, mobile, with strong arms and good intangibles. They are lacking in footwork and mechanics- things Norv Turner can teach in his sleep.
Really interesting exercise with fascinating result... made even more so by the apparent surprise it registered with you... well done.
It would seem that the old adage about the perils of drafting for need are in full display in your exercise. And it stands to reason that the peril is even greater around the most coveted QB position creating a panic factor, which we succumbed to twice in Messrs Weeden and Quinn. (And Quinn did not fall to us, we traded back up into the 1st to grab him.)
Going to take issue with your last point though. I think it is very hard to teach proper mechanics to a QB who has been doing it "his way" for 7 or 8 years at the HS and College level. Things get ingrained and even if the player manages to correct them in practice, they tend to come out under game pressure.
I rarely slice on the driving range any more, but every once in a while in a round that one-time constant companion drops in to say hello.
It would seem that the old adage about the perils of drafting for need are in full display in your exercise. And it stands to reason that the peril is even greater around the most coveted QB position creating a panic factor, which we succumbed to twice in Messrs Weeden and Quinn. (And Quinn did not fall to us, we traded back up into the 1st to grab him.)
Going to take issue with your last point though. I think it is very hard to teach proper mechanics to a QB who has been doing it "his way" for 7 or 8 years at the HS and College level. Things get ingrained and even if the player manages to correct them in practice, they tend to come out under game pressure.
Yup, the poster boy for that would be Tim Tebow- even after a couple years of pro tutelage, his mechanics are still a mess. Regarding Weeden and T-Rich, it's plain as mud now those were pure panic picks by H&H. And as I like to point out that pick we gave the Cowboys to get Quinn could have been Rashard Mendenhall or Chris Johnson.
The issue is not continuing to swing; it's the cumulative cost of each swing. If by the time you get your guy the rest of your team is in shambles, then you are no better off.
You simply cannot afford to swing and miss in the 1st round repeatedly.
Amen Brother Tour. If Griffin doesn't pan out for Washington, they're set back at least another three years, swinging for the fences. Cumulative Browns whiffs on Couch (never lived up to #1 overall status), Frye, Quinn, McCoy, & Weedster are the primary reason we've been bottom feeders for over a decade. MHO- we've struck out enough times- let's hit it out of the park for a change. I'm firmly with TCPO on the quarterback issue- ignore the hype, wait until the Combine, Pro Days, and private workouts before you decide someone is "good" enough to risk the pick(s) - and it is a risk- to be the future qb of the Browns. I still think come OTAs Hoyer will be given every chance to win the starting job next year.
-
Here's a quick list of first round QB's that have played/started this season, complete with when they were drafted and a very short synopsis of their careers. Players underlined are part of a draft day trade. Players italicized are no longer on teams that drafted them.
What's interesting to me is that, of the trade ups involving top 10 picks, two of the three listed don't even start anymore. Furthermore, of the first overall picks to start this NFL season, none of them were involved in trades. They were all taken by teams with their regular picks. Of the seven trades listed, two aren't starting, two are injured, one is having a bad year and one was a backup to start this season. Flacco is the only one who has been a consistent starter for his entire career, and even he has been accused of being a bottom tier "elite" QB.
What this shows me is that there's no right way to get a QB...but there are plenty of wrong ways. Drafting QB's is a crapshoot. You can trade up and take one in the top 10 and get RG3, Gabbert or Sanchez. You can trade up and get one in the middle to late first round and get Flacco or Campbell. You can let one fall to you and get a Rodgers or a Quinn. You can take one first overall and get a Manning or a Bradford. You can take a raw prospect and get a Tannehill or a Freeman. You can take a small school guy with great numbers and get a Locker or a Roethlisberger.
I see us either taking a Hundley or a Mettenberger with our first overall pick, Carr with our second first rounder, or a player like Blake Bortles or Logan Thomas in the middle rounds. All of those QB's share similar attributes: they are large bodied, mobile, with strong arms and good intangibles. They are lacking in footwork and mechanics- things Norv Turner can teach in his sleep.
Really interesting exercise with fascinating result... made even more so by the apparent surprise it registered with you... well done.
It would seem that the old adage about the perils of drafting for need are in full display in your exercise. And it stands to reason that the peril is even greater around the most coveted QB position creating a panic factor, which we succumbed to twice in Messrs Weeden and Quinn. (And Quinn did not fall to us, we traded back up into the 1st to grab him.)
Going to take issue with your last point though. I think it is very hard to teach proper mechanics to a QB who has been doing it "his way" for 7 or 8 years at the HS and College level. Things get ingrained and even if the player manages to correct them in practice, they tend to come out under game pressure.
I rarely slice on the driving range any more, but every once in a while in a round that one-time constant companion drops in to say hello.
Really interesting exercise with fascinating result... made even more so by the apparent surprise it registered with you... well done.
It would seem that the old adage about the perils of drafting for need are in full display in your exercise. And it stands to reason that the peril is even greater around the most coveted QB position creating a panic factor, which we succumbed to twice in Messrs Weeden and Quinn. (And Quinn did not fall to us, we traded back up into the 1st to grab him.)
Going to take issue with your last point though. I think it is very hard to teach proper mechanics to a QB who has been doing it "his way" for 7 or 8 years at the HS and College level. Things get ingrained and even if the player manages to correct them in practice, they tend to come out under game pressure.
I rarely slice on the driving range any more, but every once in a while in a round that one-time constant companion drops in to say hello.
I was more referring to the fact that Brady took a free fall from being a sure fire top 5 pick to the late first, akin to Rodgers. We did screw the pooch moving up to take him, but I will admit I was enamored with him, just as others are with Hoyer. Something about being a "hometown"(ish) guy...
I think what makes a good NFL coach is the realization that players do have their own ways of doing things and adapting to that. There is no absolute perfect way to throw a football, every person does it slightly differently in varying situations and will have different hitches in their footwork and motion.
At the NFL level, I think it's more about minimizing the hitches that you can (patting the ball, dropping your shoulder, extended delivery, etc.) and utilizing the others (lower release point, misguided feet, etc.).
Matthew Stafford was highly touted as a prospect that oozed talent, but a big knock on him was that he tended to sidearm the ball a few times per game, especially when fatigued. Stafford has since utilized that sidearm throw when pressed and has made some absolutely incredible throws under duress in the NFL. Again, it's not preferable, but it can be a weapon if harnessed.
Fundamentally speaking, Hundley has a problem with his footwork and winds up on longer throws. His footwork isn't bad per se, he just takes a number of useless steps and sometimes doesn't set correctly. These are things that can be fixed, as they aren't motions that he constantly does not are they unique to his throwing style.
If he had a long delivery, a pitchers wind up (cough, cough) or a wandering elbow, that would be a little different. Those are fatal flaws that are very hard to overcome for a QB.
All in all, I think the best way to take a QB is to find a guy who fits your mold and has the least amount of "unfixables". He may not always be a first rounder. If you like a guy in the mid to late rounds, taking him and learning him up is never a bad move.
I'm actually becoming more and more impressed with Hundley's athleticism and attitude the more I research him. He reminds me of Manuel, a leader with a great personality and endless athletic talent.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Of course there are misses. The one certain thing is that you have to try. You have to take the bat off your shoulder. You absolutely can't hit a home run without swinging. As far as getting you Guy at QB, you just have to swing again. And again. Because without one, you don't matter. At all.
The issue is not continuing to swing; it's the cumulative cost of each swing. If by the time you get your guy the rest of your team is in shambles, then you are no better off.
You simply cannot afford to swing and miss in the 1st round repeatedly.
It'll still cost a GM his job (and probably a coach), but the rookie cap helps by 10s of millions. Literally. Sam Bradford snuck in just under the wire.
I guess we'll agree, you MUST stop whiffing but you can't stop swinging because you got dispirited with previous regimes' efforts. You can either have The Guy or be looking like mad for The Guy. There is no "C."
That's what this brass told me. I kid.
The issue is not continuing to swing; it's the cumulative cost of each swing. If by the time you get your guy the rest of your team is in shambles, then you are no better off.
You simply cannot afford to swing and miss in the 1st round repeatedly.
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Great post, Couch. Actually... a ton of great posts in here, even if they aren't in total harmony. Kudos.
Tour, I actually do agree with you: Knowing that you aren't even on the track until you find your QB makes people see things that aren't there sometimes. Like me and Quinn.
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i guarantee four months from now half these posts you call great and half the QBs you've touted will be gone like a fart in the wind.
upside down and twisted.
that's why these threads suck dick.
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It would seem that the old adage about the perils of drafting for need are in full display in your exercise. And it stands to reason that the peril is even greater around the most coveted QB position creating a panic factor, which we succumbed to twice in Messrs Weeden and Quinn. (And Quinn did not fall to us, we traded back up into the 1st to grab him.)
Going to take issue with your last point though. I think it is very hard to teach proper mechanics to a QB who has been doing it "his way" for 7 or 8 years at the HS and College level. Things get ingrained and even if the player manages to correct them in practice, they tend to come out under game pressure.
Yup, the poster boy for that would be Tim Tebow- even after a couple years of pro tutelage, his mechanics are still a mess. Regarding Weeden and T-Rich, it's plain as mud now those were pure panic picks by H&H. And as I like to point out that pick we gave the Cowboys to get Quinn could have been Rashard Mendenhall or Chris Johnson.
The issue is not continuing to swing; it's the cumulative cost of each swing. If by the time you get your guy the rest of your team is in shambles, then you are no better off.
You simply cannot afford to swing and miss in the 1st round repeatedly.
Amen Brother Tour. If Griffin doesn't pan out for Washington, they're set back at least another three years, swinging for the fences. Cumulative Browns whiffs on Couch (never lived up to #1 overall status), Frye, Quinn, McCoy, & Weedster are the primary reason we've been bottom feeders for over a decade. MHO- we've struck out enough times- let's hit it out of the park for a change. I'm firmly with TCPO on the quarterback issue- ignore the hype, wait until the Combine, Pro Days, and private workouts before you decide someone is "good" enough to risk the pick(s) - and it is a risk- to be the future qb of the Browns. I still think come OTAs Hoyer will be given every chance to win the starting job next year.
Yup, the poster boy for that would be Tim Tebow- even after a couple years of pro tutelage, his mechanics are still a mess. Regarding Weeden and T-Rich, it's plain as mud now those were pure panic picks by H&H. And as I like to point out that pick we gave the Cowboys to get Quinn could have been Rashard Mendenhall or Chris Johnson.
Amen Brother Tour. If Griffin doesn't pan out for Washington, they're set back at least another three years, swinging for the fences. Cumulative Browns whiffs on Couch (never lived up to #1 overall status), Frye, Quinn, McCoy, & Weedster are the primary reason we've been bottom feeders for over a decade. MHO- we've struck out enough times- let's hit it out of the park for a change. I'm firmly with TCPO on the quarterback issue- ignore the hype, wait until the Combine, Pro Days, and private workouts before you decide someone is "good" enough to risk the pick(s) - and it is a risk- to be the future qb of the Browns. I still think come OTAs Hoyer will be given every chance to win the starting job next year.
When it comes to crappy mechanics, Tebow's delivery is the diarrhea- messy, disgusting and embarrassing.
I love Tebow but he is filled with unfixables. I still think he can win, however. John Fox at least proved that it is possible to win, albeit untraditionally.
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i guarantee four months from now half these posts you call great and half the QBs you've touted will be gone like a fart in the wind.
upside down and twisted.
that's why these threads suck dick.
Tebow is a great example, but we even tried to tweak Bernie's delivery once upon a time.
A great head can go a long way toward compensating for physical flaws, but the opposite is simply not true at the NFL level.
Add me to the list of Quinn backers as well... despite the fact that I loathe ND. Although I was not a fan of the trade up for him.
Boys... I think we are all close to a kumbaya moment...
Let's cement it by kicking the shit out of mik for a while now...
i guarantee four months from now half these posts you call great and half the QBs you've touted will be gone like a fart in the wind.
upside down and twisted.
that's why these threads suck dick.
The QBs may go, but the posts are forever...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Tebow is a great example, but we even tried to tweak Bernie's delivery once upon a time.
A great head can go a long way toward compensating for physical flaws, but the opposite is simply not true at the NFL level.
Add me to the list of Quinn backers as well... despite the fact that I loathe ND. Although I was not a fan of the trade up for him.
Boys... I think we are all close to a kumbaya moment...
Let's cement it by kicking the shit out of mik for a while now...
i guarantee four months from now half these posts you call great and half the QBs you've touted will be gone like a fart in the wind.
upside down and twisted.
that's why these threads suck dick.
The QBs may go, but the posts are forever...
Tebow is a great example, but we even tried to tweak Bernie's delivery once upon a time.
A great head can go a long way toward compensating for physical flaws, but the opposite is simply not true at the NFL level.
Add me to the list of Quinn backers as well... despite the fact that I loathe ND. Although I was not a fan of the trade up for him.
Boys... I think we are all close to a kumbaya moment...
Let's cement it by kicking the shit out of mik for a while now...
The QBs may go, but the posts are forever...
What are your thoughts on either Hundley with our first pick or Bortles in the second (assuming he declares)?
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After watching Bortles the last game... I would go with him
before Mettenberger whatever his name is.
I was impressed.
Not Petty impressed, but moreso than Mettenberger.
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