We should be rooting for Atlanta to have the worst record. Jax, Hou, and Min to lose. w
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Turnarounds happen because of QBs. That's what the homework shows. Peyton to Denver, Brees to New Orleans, Luck to Indy, Favre to Minnesota, Big Ben to Pittsburgh, Flacco to Ravens (remember when they were an Every Other Year Team?), Stafford to Lions, Wilson to Seattle, Smith to KC, Newton to Panthers, etc.
No team sucked, kept playing the same QB, added a couple guards, and got real good. Just not the way it works.
No shortcuts, guys. You have to get a great quarterback or you aren't relevant.
Turnarounds happen because of QBs. That's what the homework shows. Peyton to Denver, Brees to New Orleans, Luck to Indy, Favre to Minnesota, Big Ben to Pittsburgh, Flacco to Ravens (remember when they were an Every Other Year Team?), Stafford to Lions, Wilson to Seattle, Smith to KC, Newton to Panthers, etc.
No team sucked, kept playing the same QB, added a couple guards, and got real good. Just not the way it works.
No shortcuts, guys. You have to get a great quarterback or you aren't relevant.
Quoted this on another football forum, that's how true it is.
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Turnarounds happen because of QBs. That's what the homework shows. Peyton to Denver, Brees to New Orleans, Luck to Indy, Favre to Minnesota, Big Ben to Pittsburgh, Flacco to Ravens (remember when they were an Every Other Year Team?), Stafford to Lions, Wilson to Seattle, Smith to KC, Newton to Panthers, etc.
No team sucked, kept playing the same QB, added a couple guards, and got real good. Just not the way it works.
No shortcuts, guys. You have to get a great quarterback or you aren't relevant. Shep
***************************************
Correct. And wrong. Denver was already a playoff team. Brees? I don't remember where they were.
Luck? Already a playoff team. Minnesota not so much. Rapistbooger? Flacco? Stafford? Wilson?...
Those and other qbs went to teams that were getting stacked with talent.
Once you get your offense pretty well set to compete, at least... that qb can come in
and away you go.
Or, failing that, you go to that qb way too early, and he gets the hell beaten out of him.
Like Archie Manning. Couch. And what's his name SI "thoroughbred" qb who went to the
dismal Colts way back, whose name I can never remember.... Can you imagine if Elway had gone to the Saints back in the "Aints" day?
A lot of "great qbs" do poorly with crap teams.
But right now, the Browns offense is being held back, badly, by two qbs, plain and simple.
You put an excellent pass protecting OG in place of Lauvao, get a big time rb back there,
and add the legit blue chip qb, and there ya go.
The Browns need that bigtime exact-fit qb on the roster next year, to learn,
at least for a while, behind Hoyer.
Maybe Jeff George?
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There's a difference between trading up because you're scared someone's gonna take your guy, and going up and grabbing the best quarterback the draft has to offer.
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So I'm wrong then. Wouldnt be the first time, but I'm not imagining that he's been connected as a read option quarterback. Doesn't matter anyway if he goes #1 we won't get him. Even so I still like McCarron and I think he's getting no love in a draft where all the quarterbacks have question marks. For the record I have no interest in manziel either, and I think anyone ought to give Kenny guiton a late round look. I don't see "running" quarterbacks as the way to go in the NFL. It's a fad.
I'd be cool if CLE drafted AJ in the 2nd.
I'd be cool if CLE drafted AJ in the 2nd.
My brotha from anotha koala?
Maybe Jeff George?
Bingo... their #1 Overall pick in 1990. Talk about a talented bust. One of the best arms I have ever seen. Work ethic was non-existant.
Jeff was replaced by Jim Harbaugh in '94 (a former 1st rounder by the Bears)... who in turn was replaced in '98 by #1 overall Peyton... in turn in '12 by #1 overall Luck...
Two outta four ain't bad...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I'd be cool if CLE drafted AJ in the 2nd.
My brotha from anotha koala?
Maybe Jeff George?
Bingo... their #1 Overall pick in 1990. Talk about a talented bust. One of the best arms I have ever seen. Work ethic was non-existant.
Jeff was replaced by Jim Harbaugh in '94 (a former 1st rounder by the Bears)... who in turn was replaced in '98 by #1 overall Peyton... in turn in '12 by #1 overall Luck...
Two outta four ain't bad...
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Turnarounds happen because of QBs. That's what the homework shows. Peyton to Denver, Brees to New Orleans, Luck to Indy, Favre to Minnesota, Big Ben to Pittsburgh, Flacco to Ravens (remember when they were an Every Other Year Team?), Stafford to Lions, Wilson to Seattle, Smith to KC, Newton to Panthers, etc.
No team sucked, kept playing the same QB, added a couple guards, and got real good. Just not the way it works.
No shortcuts, guys. You have to get a great quarterback or you aren't relevant.
Turnarounds happen because of QBs. That's what the homework shows. Peyton to Denver, Brees to New Orleans, Luck to Indy, Favre to Minnesota, Big Ben to Pittsburgh, Flacco to Ravens (remember when they were an Every Other Year Team?), Stafford to Lions, Wilson to Seattle, Smith to KC, Newton to Panthers, etc.
No team sucked, kept playing the same QB, added a couple guards, and got real good. Just not the way it works.
No shortcuts, guys. You have to get a great quarterback or you aren't relevant.
You mean Andy Dalton is "great"? Hardly. I'm not ready to put Alex Smith in the HOF just yet either. It brings me to my real point.
Let's say we suck out and draft no worse than 5th. I'll let you be the GM. (I know what I'd do)
1) Do you trade both #1s and Gordon to move up to #1 and take Bridgewater?
2) Sit @ #5 and take Carr?
3) Hope Hundley falls to your second first rounder and draft Clowney?
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#3.
grab clowney (if he's there) and if you have to make a move for hundley or mccarron (or whoever else) then package a couple of later rounds picks to move up to where you are guaranteed to get the one you want with our second first rounder. no way do i trade gordon or trade both first round picks.
sacrilege.
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I'd honestly be ok if we didn't draft a QB this year until later and stuck with hoyer for a bit. Something like:
1a. Watkins
1b. Eric Ebron
2. Cyril Richardson
3a. Carlos Hyde
3b. QB - there should be some good qbs that fall to here, looking at needs.
4a. AJ Johnson
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I'd honestly be ok if we didn't draft a QB this year until later and stuck with hoyer for a bit. Something like:
1a. Watkins
1b. Eric Ebron
2. Cyril Richardson
3a. Carlos Hyde
3b. QB - there should be some good qbs that fall to here, looking at needs.
4a. AJ Johnson
I'd honestly be ok if we didn't draft a QB this year until later and stuck with hoyer for a bit. Something like:
1a. Watkins
1b. Eric Ebron
2. Cyril Richardson
3a. Carlos Hyde
3b. QB - there should be some good qbs that fall to here, looking at needs.
4a. AJ Johnson
watkins is legit but so are a lot of other receivers. i don't think he's as big or athletic as the kid from michigan who grabbed everything out of the sky last saturday and he might be available for us later on. we need some LB help that would eventually be a pass rusher. we need another CB, RB and maybe two OL. who knows who'll be there in round 3 or 4 as a QB but i'm willing to grab him as a chance and grab mariota in 2015, barring injury.
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I'd honestly be ok if we didn't draft a QB this year until later and stuck with hoyer for a bit. Something like:
1a. Watkins
1b. Eric Ebron
2. Cyril Richardson
3a. Carlos Hyde
3b. QB - there should be some good qbs that fall to here, looking at needs.
4a. AJ Johnson
watkins is legit but so are a lot of other receivers. i don't think he's as big or athletic as the kid from michigan who grabbed everything out of the sky last saturday and he might be available for us later on. we need some LB help that would eventually be a pass rusher. we need another CB, RB and maybe two OL. who knows who'll be there in round 3 or 4 as a QB but i'm willing to grab him as a chance and grab mariota in 2015, barring injury.
watkins is legit but so are a lot of other receivers. i don't think he's as big or athletic as the kid from michigan who grabbed everything out of the sky last saturday and he might be available for us later on. we need some LB help that would eventually be a pass rusher. we need another CB, RB and maybe two OL. who knows who'll be there in round 3 or 4 as a QB but i'm willing to grab him as a chance and grab mariota in 2015, barring injury.
Not saying it's the ideal draft, but that if it went down like that I'd probably be ok. We need an ILB who's not a liability in coverage, and an OLB for rotation - as much as Groves is nice, he's just way too injured. A DB as well would be nice, but I'm not so worried about that. On the O side, though, we need a QB, WR, RB, OG, possibly an RT, all to come in as starters. serviceable RB and OG can be found in third round, and if we stick with Hoyer that gives us two 1s and a 2 to get a WR, and OLB. You could also see it going something like this, which I'd not tear my hair out over.
1a. Barr, OLB
1b. Mike Evans, WR
2. Shane Skov, ILB
3a. Carlos Hyde, RB
3b. Gabe Jackson, G
4a. QB - pick your poison
4b Xavier Grimble, TE
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BTW, since I don't watch much college football (read: any) most of the drafting positions are based on the CBS rankings
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2014/all
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Turnarounds happen because of QBs. That's what the homework shows. Peyton to Denver, Brees to New Orleans, Luck to Indy, Favre to Minnesota, Big Ben to Pittsburgh, Flacco to Ravens (remember when they were an Every Other Year Team?), Stafford to Lions, Wilson to Seattle, Smith to KC, Newton to Panthers, etc.
No team sucked, kept playing the same QB, added a couple guards, and got real good. Just not the way it works.
No shortcuts, guys. You have to get a great quarterback or you aren't relevant.
You mean Andy Dalton is "great"? Hardly. I'm not ready to put Alex Smith in the HOF just yet either. It brings me to my real point.
Let's say we suck out and draft no worse than 5th. I'll let you be the GM. (I know what I'd do)
1) Do you trade both #1s and Gordon to move up to #1 and take Bridgewater?
2) Sit @ #5 and take Carr?
3) Hope Hundley falls to your second first rounder and draft Clowney?
You mean Andy Dalton is "great"? Hardly. I'm not ready to put Alex Smith in the HOF just yet either. It brings me to my real point.
Let's say we suck out and draft no worse than 5th. I'll let you be the GM. (I know what I'd do)
1) Do you trade both #1s and Gordon to move up to #1 and take Bridgewater?
2) Sit @ #5 and take Carr?
3) Hope Hundley falls to your second first rounder and draft Clowney?
1) Would it really require two #1's and Gordon to move up and take Bridgewater? I don't think it will. I'll play GM here. I trade both #1 picks and one of the third-round picks if it means I can take Bridgewater. If the team in the #1 slot asks for more than that I say no thanks (unless the more they ask for is a token pick). I would not give up Josh Gordon for anything.
2) This is determined by whether or not the trade above occurs. If the trade doesn't happen, I take Carr here.
3) Hundley is no longer an option.
I really think the Browns are one player away from relevancy, and that player is QB. Look at every team at the top of their division. They have played the same QB for the entire year, regardless of how elite the QB is. Look at every team at the bottom of their division. All but two have started multiple QBs throughout the season. QB is the most important position in all of team sports.
After QB, the Browns need to drive WR, OL, RB in that order, depending also on what they manage to do in free agency.
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trading away Gordon for a shot at a quarterback is a little bit like the Gift of the Magi.
Also passing up a quarterback this year and waiting for Mariota to come out is a little risky. Why? For the mere fact that if we are able to get the number one pick next year then it's been another stinkball of a season and if you know how Cleveland Browns football works the entire coaching staff and half the team will be gone.
If in fact everyone is completely enamored with the second rated prospect in a weak quarterback draft this year....
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Either give the house to move up for Bridgewater or take the next best QB with their first pick. Those are the only two reasonable moves.
We all know QB is the most important position. Miles ahead of the next most important. Heck, I'd rank the position importance as this...
1. QB
.
.
.
.
2-12. The 11 defensive starters
Take a look at Indy, Pitt, Car, GB, etc. They are all average to below average at almost every offensive position EXCEPT QB. Denver loses a LT and C and don't miss a beat.
The Browns problem is they haven't drafted enough QBs over the last 15 years. If they drafted more QBs then odds are they would have a good one and thus, not suck.
This whole take a guy to sit behind Hoyer is idiotic talk.
Try this exercise.
1. Rate the teams in the NFL right now.
2. Rate the teams in the NFL right now minus the QB (pretend the starting QB is replaced by a total scrub).
2 reallllly different lists.
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Either give the house to move up for Bridgewater or take the next best QB with their first pick. Those are the only two reasonable moves.
We all know QB is the most important position. Miles ahead of the next most important. Heck, I'd rank the position importance as this...
1. QB
.
.
.
.
2-12. The 11 defensive starters
Take a look at Indy, Pitt, Car, GB, etc. They are all average to below average at almost every offensive position EXCEPT QB. Denver loses a LT and C and don't miss a beat.
The Browns problem is they haven't drafted enough QBs over the last 15 years. If they drafted more QBs then odds are they would have a good one and thus, not suck.
This whole take a guy to sit behind Hoyer is idiotic talk.
Try this exercise.
1. Rate the teams in the NFL right now.
2. Rate the teams in the NFL right now minus the QB (pretend the starting QB is replaced by a total scrub).
2 reallllly different lists.
Either give the house to move up for Bridgewater or take the next best QB with their first pick. Those are the only two reasonable moves.
We all know QB is the most important position. Miles ahead of the next most important. Heck, I'd rank the position importance as this...
1. QB
.
.
.
.
2-12. The 11 defensive starters
Take a look at Indy, Pitt, Car, GB, etc. They are all average to below average at almost every offensive position EXCEPT QB. Denver loses a LT and C and don't miss a beat.
The Browns problem is they haven't drafted enough QBs over the last 15 years. If they drafted more QBs then odds are they would have a good one and thus, not suck.
This whole take a guy to sit behind Hoyer is idiotic talk.
Try this exercise.
1. Rate the teams in the NFL right now.
2. Rate the teams in the NFL right now minus the QB (pretend the starting QB is replaced by a total scrub).
2 reallllly different lists.
We look forward to your analysis after you have completed the exercise you suggest.
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@mike-h said:
The Lions have been decent with Stafford. I'd actually argue he kinda disproves your point shep. QB is important, but even if you have a good one, if you can't build the rest of the roster you're in purgatory still.
I think I do agree though, that the Browns need to do their homework, and do whatever it takes to draft the QB they want. Another year of watching Weeden, Delhonne, Quinn, Wallace, McCoy, DA and all these other bums, and ill blow my brains out.
PS-my choice in that exercise is sit @ #5 and take Carr.
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Either give the house to move up for Bridgewater or take the next best QB with their first pick. Those are the only two reasonable moves.
We all know QB is the most important position. Miles ahead of the next most important. Heck, I'd rank the position importance as this...
1. QB
.
.
.
.
2-12. The 11 defensive starters
Take a look at Indy, Pitt, Car, GB, etc. They are all average to below average at almost every offensive position EXCEPT QB. Denver loses a LT and C and don't miss a beat.
The Browns problem is they haven't drafted enough QBs over the last 15 years. If they drafted more QBs then odds are they would have a good one and thus, not suck.
This whole take a guy to sit behind Hoyer is idiotic talk.
Try this exercise.
1. Rate the teams in the NFL right now.
2. Rate the teams in the NFL right now minus the QB (pretend the starting QB is replaced by a total scrub).
2 reallllly different lists.
We look forward to your analysis after you have completed the exercise you suggest.
We look forward to your analysis after you have completed the exercise you suggest.
I apologize if it wasn't clear that I was being somewhat facetious. But since you asked...
Seattle 113.29 7.89 117.24 109.35 2 Carolina 111.61 1.09 112.16 111.07 3 Denver 111.31 0.87 111.75 110.88 4 San Francisco 109.55 5.32 112.21 106.89 5 New Orleans 107.56 2.96 109.04 106.08 6 Kansas City 105.75 1.44 106.47 105.03 7 New England 104.71 0.58 105.00 104.42 8 Arizona 104.29 4.68 106.63 101.95 9 Cincinnati 103.74 2.07 104.78 102.71 10 St. Louis 102.39 3.34 104.06 100.72 11 Indianapolis 102.17 3.29 103.82 100.53 12 Dallas 102.09 1.47 102.83 101.36 13 Detroit 101.02 3.04 102.54 99.50 14 Philadelphia 100.59 1.51 101.34 99.83 15 Miami 100.46 0.85 100.88 100.03 16 San Diego 99.61 1.27 100.24 98.97 17 Tennessee 99.47 2.29 100.61 98.32 18 Baltimore 98.69 3.95 100.66 96.71 19 Chicago 97.83 3.37 99.51 96.14 20 Tampa Bay 97.47 2.26 98.60 96.34 21 Green Bay 97.44 3.97 99.42 95.45 22 Buffalo 96.53 3.33 98.20 94.87 23 Pittsburgh 96.32 3.04 97.84 94.80 24 Atlanta 96.20 3.01 97.71 94.70 25 N.Y. Giants 95.72 2.15 96.80 94.65 26 Houston 94.01 3.89 95.96 92.07 27 Oakland 93.67 -1.31 93.02 94.33 28 Minnesota 93.26 4.52 95.52 91.00 29 Cleveland 93.10 2.02 94.11 92.09 30 Washington 92.47 0.54 92.74 92.20 31 N.Y. Jets 90.12 0.88 90.56 89.68 32 JacksonvilleI took those from vegas insider. Not a bad list to use.
Put a lousy QB on each team and would get something like this
1. Cincinnati
2. Seattle
3. Arizona
4. San Fran
5. Houston
6. Carolina
7. Buffalo
8. Jets
9. Cleveland
10. KC
11. TB
12. Lions
13. St Louis
14. Minny
15. Tenn
16. Miami
17. Giants
18. Saints
19. Bears
20. Denver
21. New England
22. Baltimore
23. Oakland
24. Dallas
25. Philly
26. Pitt
27. Skins
28. GB
29. indy
30. Atl
31. SD
32. Jax
The second is hard to do. Basically, rank by Defense. Because who gives a crap if you have some nice WRs if you have a donkey throwing to them
-
We look forward to your analysis after you have completed the exercise you suggest.
I apologize if it wasn't clear that I was being somewhat facetious. But since you asked...
Seattle 113.29 7.89 117.24 109.35 2 Carolina 111.61 1.09 112.16 111.07 3 Denver 111.31 0.87 111.75 110.88 4 San Francisco 109.55 5.32 112.21 106.89 5 New Orleans 107.56 2.96 109.04 106.08 6 Kansas City 105.75 1.44 106.47 105.03 7 New England 104.71 0.58 105.00 104.42 8 Arizona 104.29 4.68 106.63 101.95 9 Cincinnati 103.74 2.07 104.78 102.71 10 St. Louis 102.39 3.34 104.06 100.72 11 Indianapolis 102.17 3.29 103.82 100.53 12 Dallas 102.09 1.47 102.83 101.36 13 Detroit 101.02 3.04 102.54 99.50 14 Philadelphia 100.59 1.51 101.34 99.83 15 Miami 100.46 0.85 100.88 100.03 16 San Diego 99.61 1.27 100.24 98.97 17 Tennessee 99.47 2.29 100.61 98.32 18 Baltimore 98.69 3.95 100.66 96.71 19 Chicago 97.83 3.37 99.51 96.14 20 Tampa Bay 97.47 2.26 98.60 96.34 21 Green Bay 97.44 3.97 99.42 95.45 22 Buffalo 96.53 3.33 98.20 94.87 23 Pittsburgh 96.32 3.04 97.84 94.80 24 Atlanta 96.20 3.01 97.71 94.70 25 N.Y. Giants 95.72 2.15 96.80 94.65 26 Houston 94.01 3.89 95.96 92.07 27 Oakland 93.67 -1.31 93.02 94.33 28 Minnesota 93.26 4.52 95.52 91.00 29 Cleveland 93.10 2.02 94.11 92.09 30 Washington 92.47 0.54 92.74 92.20 31 N.Y. Jets 90.12 0.88 90.56 89.68 32 JacksonvilleI took those from vegas insider. Not a bad list to use.
Put a lousy QB on each team and would get something like this
1. Cincinnati
2. Seattle
3. Arizona
4. San Fran
5. Houston
6. Carolina
7. Buffalo
8. Jets
9. Cleveland
10. KC
11. TB
12. Lions
13. St Louis
14. Minny
15. Tenn
16. Miami
17. Giants
18. Saints
19. Bears
20. Denver
21. New England
22. Baltimore
23. Oakland
24. Dallas
25. Philly
26. Pitt
27. Skins
28. GB
29. indy
30. Atl
31. SD
32. Jax
The second is hard to do. Basically, rank by Defense. Because who gives a crap if you have some nice WRs if you have a donkey throwing to them
I apologize if it wasn't clear that I was being somewhat facetious. But since you asked...
Seattle 113.29 7.89 117.24 109.35 2 Carolina 111.61 1.09 112.16 111.07 3 Denver 111.31 0.87 111.75 110.88 4 San Francisco 109.55 5.32 112.21 106.89 5 New Orleans 107.56 2.96 109.04 106.08 6 Kansas City 105.75 1.44 106.47 105.03 7 New England 104.71 0.58 105.00 104.42 8 Arizona 104.29 4.68 106.63 101.95 9 Cincinnati 103.74 2.07 104.78 102.71 10 St. Louis 102.39 3.34 104.06 100.72 11 Indianapolis 102.17 3.29 103.82 100.53 12 Dallas 102.09 1.47 102.83 101.36 13 Detroit 101.02 3.04 102.54 99.50 14 Philadelphia 100.59 1.51 101.34 99.83 15 Miami 100.46 0.85 100.88 100.03 16 San Diego 99.61 1.27 100.24 98.97 17 Tennessee 99.47 2.29 100.61 98.32 18 Baltimore 98.69 3.95 100.66 96.71 19 Chicago 97.83 3.37 99.51 96.14 20 Tampa Bay 97.47 2.26 98.60 96.34 21 Green Bay 97.44 3.97 99.42 95.45 22 Buffalo 96.53 3.33 98.20 94.87 23 Pittsburgh 96.32 3.04 97.84 94.80 24 Atlanta 96.20 3.01 97.71 94.70 25 N.Y. Giants 95.72 2.15 96.80 94.65 26 Houston 94.01 3.89 95.96 92.07 27 Oakland 93.67 -1.31 93.02 94.33 28 Minnesota 93.26 4.52 95.52 91.00 29 Cleveland 93.10 2.02 94.11 92.09 30 Washington 92.47 0.54 92.74 92.20 31 N.Y. Jets 90.12 0.88 90.56 89.68 32 JacksonvilleI took those from vegas insider. Not a bad list to use.
Put a lousy QB on each team and would get something like this
1. Cincinnati
2. Seattle
3. Arizona
4. San Fran
5. Houston
6. Carolina
7. Buffalo
8. Jets
9. Cleveland
10. KC
11. TB
12. Lions
13. St Louis
14. Minny
15. Tenn
16. Miami
17. Giants
18. Saints
19. Bears
20. Denver
21. New England
22. Baltimore
23. Oakland
24. Dallas
25. Philly
26. Pitt
27. Skins
28. GB
29. indy
30. Atl
31. SD
32. Jax
The second is hard to do. Basically, rank by Defense. Because who gives a crap if you have some nice WRs if you have a donkey throwing to them
This looks like it could be quite interesting to me....if I could understand it. Example, you give this for the Browns:
Cleveland 93.10 2.02 94.11 92.09 30
What do these numbers mean?
Then you reorder the teams. Is that some kind of power rating....assuming that each team had like the same QB playing for them..or what?
-
trading away Gordon for a shot at a quarterback is a little bit like the Gift of the Magi.
Also passing up a quarterback this year and waiting for Mariota to come out is a little risky. Why? For the mere fact that if we are able to get the number one pick next year then it's been another stinkball of a season and if you know how Cleveland Browns football works the entire coaching staff and half the team will be gone.
If in fact everyone is completely enamored with the second rated prospect in a weak quarterback draft this year....
WSS
trading away Gordon for a shot at a quarterback is a little bit like the Gift of the Magi.
Two words...
- Warfield
- Phipps
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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