Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Small QB's don't win the AFC North and Manziel is just Colt McCoy with a little bit more swagger.
Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small
Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small
One plays in a dome and the other played for a balmy West Coast team for most of his career. Hardly a fitting comparison. The concerns of his size are more linked to the fact that he'll be playing outdoors, in the Midwest and Northeast, in the winter, in an outdoor stadium, against very good defenses.
He's listed at 6'1 and 210 lbs, but he'll undoubtedly measure in at the combine at 72 inches . His arm strength is just about average, which could improve if he adds a little bulk, but people worry he'll struggle with snowy, windy conditions.
I'm not as worried about him in the snow and wind, as he has very large hands for someone his size. Holding on to and controlling the ball won't be a problem for him in adverse conditions.
He's very, actually eerily, similar to Brees as a physical prospect. Manziel will measure in at the combine between 72 - 72.5 inches and will have a hand span between 10.25-10.5 inches. Brees measures at 72.5 inches and has a hand span of 10.25 inches. That's nearly a full inch larger than the average NFL QB's hand size.
I'm more worried about how his body reacts to playing in the cold for 8-10 games. He's got a small frame, so I'll cringe every time he takes a flush hit. It takes a hell of a lot more to get up after being hit in sub 40 degree temperatures than it does in warmer weather.
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Yeah, I'll give him a chance if we draft him, too.
I'm not a guy who thinks that QBs are the answer to every problem on a football team, and I think that the Browns could absolutely use help everywhere. That being said, the Browns offense does need to have SOME way to score. I like Cameron and I like Gordon, but they play in positions that are dependent on another position (QB). So, while I don't think the Browns necessarily HAVE to take a QB in the first round, and I would rather seem them take a solid player at another position than another "Weeden" (whoever that may be in this year's draft), I think it is best if they find a serviceable QB SOMEWHERE this year (even Hoyer, if they feel like giving him a try [even though I don't think he's the ultimate answer]).
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Small QB's don't win the AFC North and Manziel is just Colt McCoy with a little bit more swagger.
Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small
Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small
No one is saying there has never been a successful short QB. But the odds are firmly against you. The overwhelming majority of successful NFL QBs are tall. Looking at the current playoff picture 11 out of 12 QBs are 6'2" or taller and 9 out of the 12 are 6'4" or taller.
So I guess you could say that even if Manziel was not only an NFL caliber but an NFL playoff caliber QB (which no one would say) he would only have a 1 in 12 chance of being in the playoffs this year based on height.
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I actually agree that short QBs are often at a disadvantage and that IN GENERAL height is a favorable quality for a QB. The way you used the "snapshot" stats there is a little misleading, though. Doing it that way, you could say that 100% of the Superbowl XLIV MVP QBs were less than 6'1", while 100% of the losing QBs were over 6'1", so shorter QBs are better at winning Superbowls.
Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong about tall QBs having an advantage; I agree with you. I just think that maybe "QBs whose teams have made the playoffs in 2013" might be a bit too small of a sampling size to cite. Something like "correlation of NFL QB height to wins/production of the past two decades" would be a little more telling.
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I am going to watch the game tonight. have not seen this johnny football you speak of play yet.
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I'm not worried about height what-so-ever. We've had plenty of QBs that were tall and even ones that were short, none have worked out. There is way more to a QB than height. Can the QB hit the fucking open wide receiver? That should be priority number one. Can he throw it deep accurately? What about touch on short throws? Can he mentally handle an NFL Playbook and execute the gameplan? Can he read a defense and adjust the play accordingly?
How tall a QB is has about as much influence on how good he will be as does his eye color.
The secret of getting ahead is getting started. The secret of getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks into small manageable tasks, and then starting on the first one. -Mark Twain- "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." -Mark Twain- -
Manziel is VERY good. Is he NFL good? Who can really tell? I've watched him play about 7 or 8 times in the past 2 years and here's what I've seen (I'm no expert):
Strengths - Incredibly mobile. Excellent pocket awareness with uncanny escapability when necessary. Can control a game from inside the pocket when necessary and does not NEED to get ouside to make plays. Very smart when creating passing lanes. Good accuracy. As TCPO said, above average hand size which will help in cold weather (unlike Bridgewater who's hands are so small he needs to wear a glove on his throwing hand). Quick release. Big play ability.
Weaknesses - His size. Not only is he shorter than ideal, but he is very light meaning potential for injury every time he gets hit. He takes too many risks. In the NFL, many of his big plays would be turned into sacks and interceptions which is pretty scary. He had a bad offseason last year (which I don't put much stock into, I mean seriously he was a freshman who just won the Heisman trophy. He hasn't been the face of any sort of distraction all season which is a very good sign). Lastly, he has never played in cold weather.
My NFL comparison - A much smaller, yet faster and quicker, Ben Roethlisberger (for some reason that's just who he reminds me of)
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I'm not worried about height what-so-ever. We've had plenty of QBs that were tall and even ones that were short, none have worked out. There is way more to a QB than height. Can the QB hit the fucking open wide receiver? That should be priority number one. Can he throw it deep accurately? What about touch on short throws? Can he mentally handle an NFL Playbook and execute the gameplan? Can he read a defense and adjust the play accordingly?
How tall a QB is has about as much influence on how good he will be as does his eye color.
I'm not worried about height what-so-ever. We've had plenty of QBs that were tall and even ones that were short, none have worked out. There is way more to a QB than height. Can the QB hit the fucking open wide receiver? That should be priority number one. Can he throw it deep accurately? What about touch on short throws? Can he mentally handle an NFL Playbook and execute the gameplan? Can he read a defense and adjust the play accordingly?
How tall a QB is has about as much influence on how good he will be as does his eye color.
Except that's completely wrong.
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Thenew23, from your description, he sounded like Roethlisberger to me too. What concerns me about that is that Ben's size has always been a major factor in his game.
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I actually agree that short QBs are often at a disadvantage and that IN GENERAL height is a favorable quality for a QB. The way you used the "snapshot" stats there is a little misleading, though. Doing it that way, you could say that 100% of the Superbowl XLIV MVP QBs were less than 6'1", while 100% of the losing QBs were over 6'1", so shorter QBs are better at winning Superbowls.
Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong about tall QBs having an advantage; I agree with you. I just think that maybe "QBs whose teams have made the playoffs in 2013" might be a bit too small of a sampling size to cite. Something like "correlation of NFL QB height to wins/production of the past two decades" would be a little more telling.
I actually agree that short QBs are often at a disadvantage and that IN GENERAL height is a favorable quality for a QB. The way you used the "snapshot" stats there is a little misleading, though. Doing it that way, you could say that 100% of the Superbowl XLIV MVP QBs were less than 6'1", while 100% of the losing QBs were over 6'1", so shorter QBs are better at winning Superbowls.
Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong about tall QBs having an advantage; I agree with you. I just think that maybe "QBs whose teams have made the playoffs in 2013" might be a bit too small of a sampling size to cite. Something like "correlation of NFL QB height to wins/production of the past two decades" would be a little more telling.
I did use a relatively small sample size but your sample size is even smaller and therefore even less useful. I didn't have time to analyze over several years. Feel free to do so if you like and share the results. I'd be interested in seeing the results. I'd be surprised if there was a significant difference.
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Thenew23, from your description, he sounded like Roethlisberger to me too. What concerns me about that is that Ben's size has always been a major factor in his game.
Thenew23, from your description, he sounded like Roethlisberger to me too. What concerns me about that is that Ben's size has always been a major factor in his game.
Yes... very concerning. Ben can toss DLinemen off his back and escape. Manziel probably can't break free from a CB. He has to rely on his speed much more. I just really like his talent, but I'll leave it to the experts to decide if they think it translates to the NFL. I could see it both ways...
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I don't see the Ben comparison in the slightest. The QB that most resembles Roethlisberger in this draft, to me, is Blake Bortles.
Manziel draws a gameplay comparison to Doug Flutie and a physical attribute comparison to Drew Brees.
He doesn't bounce off four 350-lb defenders and then throw a wobbling strike to his receiver with two more defenders draped on his body.
He maneuvers in the pocket until he can't any longer, then he moves outside of the pocket and eludes tacklers until someone gets open. He changes the field. He plays backyard football, running around until he creates enough space to hit a breaking WR.
The only comparison to Ben that I can draw is off-the-field concerns. They are both knuckleheads.
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Ah, thanks for the clarification, TCPO. You mentioned that Johnny maneuvers in the pocket until he can't anymore. An article that someone linked earlier in the thread claims that he bails out of the pocket too quickly. Do you agree that's a possibility, or do you disagree with that assessment?
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I'm comparing Manziel and Ben in college. I said their size is the big difference. The similarity is they both escape pressure and are capable of making big plays on a regular basis. They both are equally able to escape pressure and make big plays, for the other team as well. Ben was big in college, but he was also faster and more elusive than he is now. The other comparison is their accuracy. They both seem very accurate from inside the pocket, and equally accurate on the run...
#Justsayin' -
Ah, thanks for the clarification, TCPO. You mentioned that Johnny maneuvers in the pocket until he can't anymore. An article that someone linked earlier in the thread claims that he bails out of the pocket too quickly. Do you agree that's a possibility, or do you disagree with that assessment?
Ah, thanks for the clarification, TCPO. You mentioned that Johnny maneuvers in the pocket until he can't anymore. An article that someone linked earlier in the thread claims that he bails out of the pocket too quickly. Do you agree that's a possibility, or do you disagree with that assessment?
I agree with it. I think he relies too much on his feet and tries to create as much distance as he can before he throws the ball.
I wasn't saying that he stays in the pocket until it collapses, I was saying that he only stays in there until he feels uneasy and then he changes the field. That's where the Flutie comparison comes in. He'll let the defenders get engaged and then he'll create as much space as he can in order to let his WR's get seperation.
He's not a quarterback that stands tall in the face of pressure and delivers a strike as he's being hit, like Roethlisberger. That's how I fail to see the connection.
It's part of the reason I'm very concerned about his NFL potential. He's not going to be able to do that as often on Sundays.
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I'm comparing Manziel and Ben in college. I said their size is the big difference. The similarity is they both escape pressure and are capable of making big plays on a regular basis. They both are equally able to escape pressure and make big plays, for the other team as well. Ben was big in college, but he was also faster and more elusive than he is now. The other comparison is their accuracy. They both seem very accurate from inside the pocket, and equally accurate on the run...
Yes, they're both elusive. I understand that aspect.I'm comparing Manziel and Ben in college. I said their size is the big difference. The similarity is they both escape pressure and are capable of making big plays on a regular basis. They both are equally able to escape pressure and make big plays, for the other team as well. Ben was big in college, but he was also faster and more elusive than he is now. The other comparison is their accuracy. They both seem very accurate from inside the pocket, and equally accurate on the run...
The way they are elusive is much different, however. That's what I'm saying. Ben is elusive because he's able to shake off arm tacklers and has tremendous balance. Manziel is elusive in that he can outrun his defenders and create space before throwing the ball.
Ben can hunker down in the pocket and a wave of defenders will crash over and around him, and then roll out if he needs to. Manziel tries to stay five yards from defenders at all times, hence the "backyard football" comparison he gets from analysts.
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For what it's worth last I heard Mel kipper jr. Didn't even have a first round grade on manziel, let alone a top five grade. Of course, take it with a grain of salt as he was proclaiming Jamarcus Russell to be the next john elway and also didn't have a first round grade on Russell Wilson either.
I don't like how much manziel has to rely on his legs. I love mobility in a quarterback but don't care for qbs who are always looking to run the ball. It'd be one thing if he was as big as bortles, but he isn't. I guess what I'm really getting at is why don't we just draft Bortles?
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