Jonathan Paul Manziel
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I noticed yesterday that a lot of people think Manziel could be the Browns first pick in the 2014 Draft (although the three mock drafts I just saw from CBS Sports and Sports Illustrated didn't have CLE taking a QB there) (Added: Ah, wait, there,... a guy from Bleacher Report has Manziel going to Cleveland.). I haven't followed Manziel that closely, although I've obviously heard the major headlines. I was hoping maybe people could post some facts and opinions about him (positive and negative) to catch me up in case he does end up being the pick. Is he "college good" or "NFL good"? What's with the attitude/behavior issues, and are those going to be a problem in the NFL? Is he the kind of QB who can come in and produce right away, or should we expect to give him the customary "he's a rookie, it's going to take awhile" pass? What do you guys think?
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The FO knows this draft, and this new HC hire, is pivotal for their own future careers. And by all accounts they have said, clearly, Clevelands fans deserve to win now. Not next year, now. I expect they approach the draft with that same mentality.
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Am I alone in thinking t,here is something off about Manziel? He seems to like attention too much. Maybe he will be OK, but he seems immature. He just seems like someone who will crash and burn.
No one wants to hear this but this is not a good year to draft a QB. The pool is not very deep at that position. Every draft year is different, and you have to go with what is available to some extent.
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Small QB's don't win the AFC North and Manziel is just Colt McCoy with a little bit more swagger.
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Small QB's don't win the AFC North and Manziel is just Colt McCoy with a little bit more swagger.
Small QB's don't win the AFC North and Manziel is just Colt McCoy with a little bit more swagger.
Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small
Nickers...."There are no old running QB's in the NFL "~Sam Rutigliano~ -
I noticed yesterday that a lot of people think Manziel could be the Browns first pick in the 2014 Draft (although the three mock drafts I just saw from CBS Sports and Sports Illustrated didn't have CLE taking a QB there) (Added: Ah, wait, there,... a guy from Bleacher Report has Manziel going to Cleveland.). I haven't followed Manziel that closely, although I've obviously heard the major headlines. I was hoping maybe people could post some facts and opinions about him (positive and negative) to catch me up in case he does end up being the pick. Is he "college good" or "NFL good"? What's with the attitude/behavior issues, and are those going to be a problem in the NFL? Is he the kind of QB who can come in and produce right away, or should we expect to give him the customary "he's a rookie, it's going to take awhile" pass? What do you guys think?
Is he "college good" or "NFL good"?
He's college "Great"...but so was Tebow...
That said he is not Tebow...more of a Farve type gunslinger,can get the ball down field but like Farve needs room to throw
and he's very good at creating that room...seems to have good accuracy on short throws and exceptional field vision.
Question is will he get killed running as much as he does? Probably...But he does seem to have a knack for narrowly escaping big hits.
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Small QB's don't win the AFC North and Manziel is just Colt McCoy with a little bit more swagger.
Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small
Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small
One plays in a dome and the other played for a balmy West Coast team for most of his career. Hardly a fitting comparison. The concerns of his size are more linked to the fact that he'll be playing outdoors, in the Midwest and Northeast, in the winter, in an outdoor stadium, against very good defenses.
He's listed at 6'1 and 210 lbs, but he'll undoubtedly measure in at the combine at 72 inches . His arm strength is just about average, which could improve if he adds a little bulk, but people worry he'll struggle with snowy, windy conditions.
I'm not as worried about him in the snow and wind, as he has very large hands for someone his size. Holding on to and controlling the ball won't be a problem for him in adverse conditions.
He's very, actually eerily, similar to Brees as a physical prospect. Manziel will measure in at the combine between 72 - 72.5 inches and will have a hand span between 10.25-10.5 inches. Brees measures at 72.5 inches and has a hand span of 10.25 inches. That's nearly a full inch larger than the average NFL QB's hand size.
I'm more worried about how his body reacts to playing in the cold for 8-10 games. He's got a small frame, so I'll cringe every time he takes a flush hit. It takes a hell of a lot more to get up after being hit in sub 40 degree temperatures than it does in warmer weather.
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Yeah, I'll give him a chance if we draft him, too.
I'm not a guy who thinks that QBs are the answer to every problem on a football team, and I think that the Browns could absolutely use help everywhere. That being said, the Browns offense does need to have SOME way to score. I like Cameron and I like Gordon, but they play in positions that are dependent on another position (QB). So, while I don't think the Browns necessarily HAVE to take a QB in the first round, and I would rather seem them take a solid player at another position than another "Weeden" (whoever that may be in this year's draft), I think it is best if they find a serviceable QB SOMEWHERE this year (even Hoyer, if they feel like giving him a try [even though I don't think he's the ultimate answer]).
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Small QB's don't win the AFC North and Manziel is just Colt McCoy with a little bit more swagger.
Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small
Otto Graham and Brian Sipe were 6'"2 dude...tell Steve Young and Drew Bree's theyre too small
No one is saying there has never been a successful short QB. But the odds are firmly against you. The overwhelming majority of successful NFL QBs are tall. Looking at the current playoff picture 11 out of 12 QBs are 6'2" or taller and 9 out of the 12 are 6'4" or taller.
So I guess you could say that even if Manziel was not only an NFL caliber but an NFL playoff caliber QB (which no one would say) he would only have a 1 in 12 chance of being in the playoffs this year based on height.
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I actually agree that short QBs are often at a disadvantage and that IN GENERAL height is a favorable quality for a QB. The way you used the "snapshot" stats there is a little misleading, though. Doing it that way, you could say that 100% of the Superbowl XLIV MVP QBs were less than 6'1", while 100% of the losing QBs were over 6'1", so shorter QBs are better at winning Superbowls.
Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong about tall QBs having an advantage; I agree with you. I just think that maybe "QBs whose teams have made the playoffs in 2013" might be a bit too small of a sampling size to cite. Something like "correlation of NFL QB height to wins/production of the past two decades" would be a little more telling.
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I am going to watch the game tonight. have not seen this johnny football you speak of play yet.
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I'm not worried about height what-so-ever. We've had plenty of QBs that were tall and even ones that were short, none have worked out. There is way more to a QB than height. Can the QB hit the fucking open wide receiver? That should be priority number one. Can he throw it deep accurately? What about touch on short throws? Can he mentally handle an NFL Playbook and execute the gameplan? Can he read a defense and adjust the play accordingly?
How tall a QB is has about as much influence on how good he will be as does his eye color.
The secret of getting ahead is getting started. The secret of getting started is breaking your complex overwhelming tasks into small manageable tasks, and then starting on the first one. -Mark Twain- "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog." -Mark Twain- -
Manziel is VERY good. Is he NFL good? Who can really tell? I've watched him play about 7 or 8 times in the past 2 years and here's what I've seen (I'm no expert):
Strengths - Incredibly mobile. Excellent pocket awareness with uncanny escapability when necessary. Can control a game from inside the pocket when necessary and does not NEED to get ouside to make plays. Very smart when creating passing lanes. Good accuracy. As TCPO said, above average hand size which will help in cold weather (unlike Bridgewater who's hands are so small he needs to wear a glove on his throwing hand). Quick release. Big play ability.
Weaknesses - His size. Not only is he shorter than ideal, but he is very light meaning potential for injury every time he gets hit. He takes too many risks. In the NFL, many of his big plays would be turned into sacks and interceptions which is pretty scary. He had a bad offseason last year (which I don't put much stock into, I mean seriously he was a freshman who just won the Heisman trophy. He hasn't been the face of any sort of distraction all season which is a very good sign). Lastly, he has never played in cold weather.
My NFL comparison - A much smaller, yet faster and quicker, Ben Roethlisberger (for some reason that's just who he reminds me of)
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I'm not worried about height what-so-ever. We've had plenty of QBs that were tall and even ones that were short, none have worked out. There is way more to a QB than height. Can the QB hit the fucking open wide receiver? That should be priority number one. Can he throw it deep accurately? What about touch on short throws? Can he mentally handle an NFL Playbook and execute the gameplan? Can he read a defense and adjust the play accordingly?
How tall a QB is has about as much influence on how good he will be as does his eye color.
I'm not worried about height what-so-ever. We've had plenty of QBs that were tall and even ones that were short, none have worked out. There is way more to a QB than height. Can the QB hit the fucking open wide receiver? That should be priority number one. Can he throw it deep accurately? What about touch on short throws? Can he mentally handle an NFL Playbook and execute the gameplan? Can he read a defense and adjust the play accordingly?
How tall a QB is has about as much influence on how good he will be as does his eye color.
Except that's completely wrong.
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Thenew23, from your description, he sounded like Roethlisberger to me too. What concerns me about that is that Ben's size has always been a major factor in his game.
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I actually agree that short QBs are often at a disadvantage and that IN GENERAL height is a favorable quality for a QB. The way you used the "snapshot" stats there is a little misleading, though. Doing it that way, you could say that 100% of the Superbowl XLIV MVP QBs were less than 6'1", while 100% of the losing QBs were over 6'1", so shorter QBs are better at winning Superbowls.
Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong about tall QBs having an advantage; I agree with you. I just think that maybe "QBs whose teams have made the playoffs in 2013" might be a bit too small of a sampling size to cite. Something like "correlation of NFL QB height to wins/production of the past two decades" would be a little more telling.
I actually agree that short QBs are often at a disadvantage and that IN GENERAL height is a favorable quality for a QB. The way you used the "snapshot" stats there is a little misleading, though. Doing it that way, you could say that 100% of the Superbowl XLIV MVP QBs were less than 6'1", while 100% of the losing QBs were over 6'1", so shorter QBs are better at winning Superbowls.
Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong about tall QBs having an advantage; I agree with you. I just think that maybe "QBs whose teams have made the playoffs in 2013" might be a bit too small of a sampling size to cite. Something like "correlation of NFL QB height to wins/production of the past two decades" would be a little more telling.
I did use a relatively small sample size but your sample size is even smaller and therefore even less useful. I didn't have time to analyze over several years. Feel free to do so if you like and share the results. I'd be interested in seeing the results. I'd be surprised if there was a significant difference.
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Thenew23, from your description, he sounded like Roethlisberger to me too. What concerns me about that is that Ben's size has always been a major factor in his game.
Thenew23, from your description, he sounded like Roethlisberger to me too. What concerns me about that is that Ben's size has always been a major factor in his game.
Yes... very concerning. Ben can toss DLinemen off his back and escape. Manziel probably can't break free from a CB. He has to rely on his speed much more. I just really like his talent, but I'll leave it to the experts to decide if they think it translates to the NFL. I could see it both ways...
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