Jonathan Paul Manziel
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I actually agree that short QBs are often at a disadvantage and that IN GENERAL height is a favorable quality for a QB. The way you used the "snapshot" stats there is a little misleading, though. Doing it that way, you could say that 100% of the Superbowl XLIV MVP QBs were less than 6'1", while 100% of the losing QBs were over 6'1", so shorter QBs are better at winning Superbowls.
Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong about tall QBs having an advantage; I agree with you. I just think that maybe "QBs whose teams have made the playoffs in 2013" might be a bit too small of a sampling size to cite. Something like "correlation of NFL QB height to wins/production of the past two decades" would be a little more telling.
I actually agree that short QBs are often at a disadvantage and that IN GENERAL height is a favorable quality for a QB. The way you used the "snapshot" stats there is a little misleading, though. Doing it that way, you could say that 100% of the Superbowl XLIV MVP QBs were less than 6'1", while 100% of the losing QBs were over 6'1", so shorter QBs are better at winning Superbowls.
Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong about tall QBs having an advantage; I agree with you. I just think that maybe "QBs whose teams have made the playoffs in 2013" might be a bit too small of a sampling size to cite. Something like "correlation of NFL QB height to wins/production of the past two decades" would be a little more telling.
I did use a relatively small sample size but your sample size is even smaller and therefore even less useful. I didn't have time to analyze over several years. Feel free to do so if you like and share the results. I'd be interested in seeing the results. I'd be surprised if there was a significant difference.
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Thenew23, from your description, he sounded like Roethlisberger to me too. What concerns me about that is that Ben's size has always been a major factor in his game.
Thenew23, from your description, he sounded like Roethlisberger to me too. What concerns me about that is that Ben's size has always been a major factor in his game.
Yes... very concerning. Ben can toss DLinemen off his back and escape. Manziel probably can't break free from a CB. He has to rely on his speed much more. I just really like his talent, but I'll leave it to the experts to decide if they think it translates to the NFL. I could see it both ways...
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I don't see the Ben comparison in the slightest. The QB that most resembles Roethlisberger in this draft, to me, is Blake Bortles.
Manziel draws a gameplay comparison to Doug Flutie and a physical attribute comparison to Drew Brees.
He doesn't bounce off four 350-lb defenders and then throw a wobbling strike to his receiver with two more defenders draped on his body.
He maneuvers in the pocket until he can't any longer, then he moves outside of the pocket and eludes tacklers until someone gets open. He changes the field. He plays backyard football, running around until he creates enough space to hit a breaking WR.
The only comparison to Ben that I can draw is off-the-field concerns. They are both knuckleheads.
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Ah, thanks for the clarification, TCPO. You mentioned that Johnny maneuvers in the pocket until he can't anymore. An article that someone linked earlier in the thread claims that he bails out of the pocket too quickly. Do you agree that's a possibility, or do you disagree with that assessment?
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I'm comparing Manziel and Ben in college. I said their size is the big difference. The similarity is they both escape pressure and are capable of making big plays on a regular basis. They both are equally able to escape pressure and make big plays, for the other team as well. Ben was big in college, but he was also faster and more elusive than he is now. The other comparison is their accuracy. They both seem very accurate from inside the pocket, and equally accurate on the run...
#Justsayin' -
Ah, thanks for the clarification, TCPO. You mentioned that Johnny maneuvers in the pocket until he can't anymore. An article that someone linked earlier in the thread claims that he bails out of the pocket too quickly. Do you agree that's a possibility, or do you disagree with that assessment?
Ah, thanks for the clarification, TCPO. You mentioned that Johnny maneuvers in the pocket until he can't anymore. An article that someone linked earlier in the thread claims that he bails out of the pocket too quickly. Do you agree that's a possibility, or do you disagree with that assessment?
I agree with it. I think he relies too much on his feet and tries to create as much distance as he can before he throws the ball.
I wasn't saying that he stays in the pocket until it collapses, I was saying that he only stays in there until he feels uneasy and then he changes the field. That's where the Flutie comparison comes in. He'll let the defenders get engaged and then he'll create as much space as he can in order to let his WR's get seperation.
He's not a quarterback that stands tall in the face of pressure and delivers a strike as he's being hit, like Roethlisberger. That's how I fail to see the connection.
It's part of the reason I'm very concerned about his NFL potential. He's not going to be able to do that as often on Sundays.
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I'm comparing Manziel and Ben in college. I said their size is the big difference. The similarity is they both escape pressure and are capable of making big plays on a regular basis. They both are equally able to escape pressure and make big plays, for the other team as well. Ben was big in college, but he was also faster and more elusive than he is now. The other comparison is their accuracy. They both seem very accurate from inside the pocket, and equally accurate on the run...
Yes, they're both elusive. I understand that aspect.I'm comparing Manziel and Ben in college. I said their size is the big difference. The similarity is they both escape pressure and are capable of making big plays on a regular basis. They both are equally able to escape pressure and make big plays, for the other team as well. Ben was big in college, but he was also faster and more elusive than he is now. The other comparison is their accuracy. They both seem very accurate from inside the pocket, and equally accurate on the run...
The way they are elusive is much different, however. That's what I'm saying. Ben is elusive because he's able to shake off arm tacklers and has tremendous balance. Manziel is elusive in that he can outrun his defenders and create space before throwing the ball.
Ben can hunker down in the pocket and a wave of defenders will crash over and around him, and then roll out if he needs to. Manziel tries to stay five yards from defenders at all times, hence the "backyard football" comparison he gets from analysts.
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For what it's worth last I heard Mel kipper jr. Didn't even have a first round grade on manziel, let alone a top five grade. Of course, take it with a grain of salt as he was proclaiming Jamarcus Russell to be the next john elway and also didn't have a first round grade on Russell Wilson either.
I don't like how much manziel has to rely on his legs. I love mobility in a quarterback but don't care for qbs who are always looking to run the ball. It'd be one thing if he was as big as bortles, but he isn't. I guess what I'm really getting at is why don't we just draft Bortles?
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Kiper also criticized the drafting of Marshall Faulk. For a guy that has 363 days a year to get 2 days worth of work right, I think he misses an awful lot.
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Kiper also criticized the drafting of Marshall Faulk. For a guy that has 363 days a year to get 2 days worth of work right, I think he misses an awful lot.
Kiper also criticized the drafting of Marshall Faulk. For a guy that has 363 days a year to get 2 days worth of work right, I think he misses an awful lot.
now that is a good gig
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Honestly why the hell not draft this guy? The browns keep trotting out big tall stupid QB's (minus McCoy who was just stupid), so I'm all for giving Manziel a chance. He's clearly an athlete with swagger a la Phillip Rivers. With Manziel under center at least our offensive would be exciting. I think he's a douche but he's been very solid against the best competition in college football. The shit we've been doing for the past 15 years hasn't worked. Same way I feel about Chud, seems stupid on paper but maybe it's what will finally turn the ship around.
The last guy that went high in the draft like this who I thought sucked was Cam Newton. I know from a physical standpoint it's apples to oranges but still.
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JB called today and asked that I scout this guy so I'll be tuned in. AFC North has no room for noodle arms when the fall/winter winds pick up as recently demonstrated with McCoy.
Even Flacco has trouble getting the ball down the field in windy Bmore. Johnny football was pretty well protected with only 42 sacks so far on his resume. Durability a big question
mark. Of course his athleticism got him out of a lot of potential bell ringers. He may not be able to rely on that asset in the NFL with it's ramped up D speed. Cringe factor of running
QB's quickly ages pro coaches. Lord know Browns fan pucker at each QB scramble after seeing the outcome of a Hoyer scoot and boot
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We have a good number of draft picks. Manziel is "boom or bust" with the highest potential in the upcoming draft. The kid is spunky, a playmaker, instinctive as hell & tough, BUT he could crash. Why not draft him AND another QB such as a Garoppolo/Mettenberger, etc in the 3rd (Hoyer is currently all we have) or trade for Cousins in addition to the Manziel pick? That way, we cover a potential bust, create excitement, & have our 3 QBs with upside. Just a thought.
Mike
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I'm not opposed to selecting a backup qb in the mid rounds
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So if I watch the game tonight what should i look for and expect? Is he different than McCoy was at Texas?
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So if I watch the game tonight what should i look for and expect? Is he different than McCoy was at Texas?
If he can duplicate what Rodgers did on the last play of Sunday's game in Chicago I would be fueling the private jet up for a meet and greet in Texas or wherever Johnny ends up after tonight's game.
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let me fuel up the long beach pimp jet up?
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Prolly so. Haz may not be doing much pimp jet flying after Uncle Jam finishes with him.
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I've not done any homework on the up and coming QB's for next year's draft, but based on the input TCPO has posted here....I'm for Bortles. I was relieved when Browns lost the bid to grab the RG3 pick, because his style of play is too risky IMO. And look what happened, he already had a major knee injury in his rookie year. AFC North is a tough division, and many games played in adverse weather conditions. Get a bigger QB who hopefully has some decent mobility too. Somebody like Manziel probably won't last here. Not if he has to face AFC North defenses twice a year.
That being said...I'm also in the camp that think the FO is going to pursue McDaniels hard. And from what I've read that most likely means a guy like Manziel will be who they go after in the draft.
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I've not done any homework on the up and coming QB's for next year's draft, but based on the input TCPO has posted here....I'm for Bortles. I was relieved when Browns lost the bid to grab the RG3 pick, because his style of play is too risky IMO. And look what happened, he already had a major knee injury in his rookie year. AFC North is a tough division, and many games played in adverse weather conditions. Get a bigger QB who hopefully has some decent mobility too. Somebody like Manziel probably won't last here. Not if he has to face AFC North defenses twice a year.
That being said...I'm also in the camp that think the FO is going to pursue McDaniels hard. And from what I've read that most likely means a guy like Manziel will be who they go after in the draft.
I've not done any homework on the up and coming QB's for next year's draft, but based on the input TCPO has posted here....I'm for Bortles. I was relieved when Browns lost the bid to grab the RG3 pick, because his style of play is too risky IMO. And look what happened, he already had a major knee injury in his rookie year. AFC North is a tough division, and many games played in adverse weather conditions. Get a bigger QB who hopefully has some decent mobility too. Somebody like Manziel probably won't last here. Not if he has to face AFC North defenses twice a year.
That being said...I'm also in the camp that think the FO is going to pursue McDaniels hard. And from what I've read that most likely means a guy like Manziel will be who they go after in the draft.
Exactly! That's why I think it wise to draft TWO QBs in this draft.
Mike
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