Question for the Board
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.Just look due south to Cincinnati. They draft guys Most don't even put on their boards. Look at this board....we obviously can't even agree on VALUE of a top 5 guy? Scouts are scouts I get the arguement....Judgements on scouting are skewed tremendously
I think right there is where JADBF and I are coming from. It comes down to the guy (or guys when done right) who looks at those scouting reports and decides who is the guy to draft. Like down south in Cinci, I'd bet dollars to donuts that who the scouts and Mavin Lewis think is the better guy to draft and who Mike Brown decided are vastly different.
Masters said:
I think right there is where JADBF and I are coming from. It comes down to the guy (or guys when done right) who looks at those scouting reports and decides who is the guy to draft. Like down south in Cinci, I'd bet dollars to donuts that who the scouts and Mavin Lewis think is the better guy to draft and who Mike Brown decided are vastly different.YOU PROVE MY POINT AS WELL...OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETLY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT!
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Tom Brady ring any bells(6th)?, Asante samuel(4th round) For pete's sake Matt cassell Never even took a freakin SNAP in College...so hell ya I'd say they are better! Please don't come back to me and say They fit there system...geez
Tom Brady ring any bells(6th)?, Asante samuel(4th round) For pete's sake Matt cassell Never even took a freakin SNAP in College...so hell ya I'd say they are better! Please don't come back to me and say They fit there system...geez
Of course they felt those guys could fit into their system and develop with in it. A system for an NFL team is much more than just the X's and O's of playbook. You think those same guys would have produced the same if CLE drafted them and they played under RAC?
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Rich, I'd whole heartly agree with you. Good teams find ways to adjust their existing system to maximize the use of a great talent.
The one thing you can't do is go get a massive impact player who will never fit in your system, even with tweaking. There are always will be guys who can only be productive in a certain type of system.
Masters said:
Rich, I'd whole heartly agree with you. Good teams find ways to adjust their existing system to maximize the use of a great talent.The one thing you can't do is go get a massive impact player who will never fit in your system, even with tweaking. There are always will be guys who can only be productive in a certain type of system.
Mostly agree with your premise but Jim Brown would have fit any system.........and made it better. The Browns had their bruiser Fullback back then and were a west coast offense. Boom, there is Brown and wala the Browns become a dominant running team. The message is never say never. As Paul stated long ago.....if you get the big gun shoot it.
How simple is that.........Butkus, Taylor, Montana, Rice, Polamalu................simple and excellent.........and that is what winners do........create a system but never allow the system to IGNORE REALITY
Offense Wins.......Franchise QB's are the key.............Defense keeps you in the game.........Go Buckeyes -
Masters said:
I think right there is where JADBF and I are coming from. It comes down to the guy (or guys when done right) who looks at those scouting reports and decides who is the guy to draft. Like down south in Cinci, I'd bet dollars to donuts that who the scouts and Mavin Lewis think is the better guy to draft and who Mike Brown decided are vastly different.YOU PROVE MY POINT AS WELL...OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETLY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT!
YOU PROVE MY POINT AS WELL...OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETLY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT!
When talking pure scouts, they hardly differ. Pick any player, then read the scouting report from 10 different sources. You'll find 95% of the report is the same.
Now talk to 10 different GMs (or who ever will actually decide who to draft with a pick), you'll certainly get 7-8 different answers for sure. Of course once you get to that level, the guy making the decision needs to be doing more than just evaluating the level of talent, or potential talent player X has. Otherwise you start being Phil Savage, and your gonna swing an miss because guys you find with high potential talent or existing talent, draft them, but they'll never fit into the system you are trying to run.
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YOU PROVE MY POINT AS WELL...OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETLY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT!
When talking pure scouts, they hardly differ. Pick any player, then read the scouting report from 10 different sources. You'll find 95% of the report is the same.
Now talk to 10 different GMs (or who ever will actually decide who to draft with a pick), you'll certainly get 7-8 different answers for sure. Of course once you get to that level, the guy making the decision needs to be doing more than just evaluating the level of talent, or potential talent player X has. Otherwise you start being Phil Savage, and your gonna swing an miss because guys you find with high potential talent or existing talent, draft them, but they'll never fit into the system you are trying to run.
Masters said:
When talking pure scouts, they hardly differ. Pick any player, then read the scouting report from 10 different sources. You'll find 95% of the report is the same.Now talk to 10 different GMs (or who ever will actually decide who to draft with a pick), you'll certainly get 7-8 different answers for sure. Of course once you get to that level, the guy making the decision needs to be doing more than just evaluating the level of talent, or potential talent player X has. Otherwise you start being Phil Savage, and your gonna swing an miss because guys you find with high potential talent or existing talent, draft them, but they'll never fit into the system you are trying to run.
Your first line says it all...........life in general is herd mentality..........WINNERS separate from herds to single progressive thinking in all endeavors.........football is not excluded. Usually the herd sucks high wind in the end
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Masters said:
Rich, I'd whole heartly agree with you. Good teams find ways to adjust their existing system to maximize the use of a great talent.The one thing you can't do is go get a massive impact player who will never fit in your system, even with tweaking. There are always will be guys who can only be productive in a certain type of system.
Mostly agree with your premise but Jim Brown would have fit any system.........and made it better. The Browns had their bruiser Fullback back then and were a west coast offense. Boom, there is Brown and wala the Browns become a dominant running team. The message is never say never. As Paul stated long ago.....if you get the big gun shoot it.
How simple is that.........Butkus, Taylor, Montana, Rice, Polamalu................simple and excellent.........and that is what winners do........create a system but never allow the system to IGNORE REALITY
Mostly agree with your premise but Jim Brown would have fit any system.........and made it better. The Browns had their bruiser Fullback back then and were a west coast offense. Boom, there is Brown and wala the Browns become a dominant running team. The message is never say never. As Paul stated long ago.....if you get the big gun shoot it.
How simple is that.........Butkus, Taylor, Montana, Rice, Polamalu................simple and excellent.........and that is what winners do........create a system but never allow the system to IGNORE REALITY
Well a great RB like Jim Brown, and one from a far different era, is one of those guys who is generally gonna produce in any O system. If you can run over and through people, it doesn't matter. But you can't take DA and put him in a west coast offense and expect him to ever thrive. You can't take any great pass rushing DE in a 4-3 and get him the same success as an OLB or DE in a 3-4.
If you mean LT-Taylor, I don't think he could be plugged into any D and have the same impact he did with the G-men. If you put Joe Montana in air Coryell O, I don't think he has the same career either. You ask Big Ben to run Peyton Mannings offense, I don't think he has the same success either.
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Masters said:
When talking pure scouts, they hardly differ. Pick any player, then read the scouting report from 10 different sources. You'll find 95% of the report is the same.Now talk to 10 different GMs (or who ever will actually decide who to draft with a pick), you'll certainly get 7-8 different answers for sure. Of course once you get to that level, the guy making the decision needs to be doing more than just evaluating the level of talent, or potential talent player X has. Otherwise you start being Phil Savage, and your gonna swing an miss because guys you find with high potential talent or existing talent, draft them, but they'll never fit into the system you are trying to run.
Your first line says it all...........life in general is herd mentality..........WINNERS separate from herds to single progressive thinking in all endeavors.........football is not excluded. Usually the herd sucks high wind in the end
Your first line says it all...........life in general is herd mentality..........WINNERS separate from herds to single progressive thinking in all endeavors.........football is not excluded. Usually the herd sucks high wind in the end
It's why it is so critical that the guy (or more importantly more than one person) making the final decision based on the scouting information makes the right pick, based on all the data, and their own good football instincts.
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I assume that was not pointed at me
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Masters said:
Rich, I'd whole heartly agree with you. Good teams find ways to adjust their existing system to maximize the use of a great talent.The one thing you can't do is go get a massive impact player who will never fit in your system, even with tweaking. There are always will be guys who can only be productive in a certain type of system.
Mostly agree with your premise but Jim Brown would have fit any system.........and made it better. The Browns had their bruiser Fullback back then and were a west coast offense. Boom, there is Brown and wala the Browns become a dominant running team. The message is never say never. As Paul stated long ago.....if you get the big gun shoot it.
How simple is that.........Butkus, Taylor, Montana, Rice, Polamalu................simple and excellent.........and that is what winners do........create a system but never allow the system to IGNORE REALITY
Mostly agree with your premise but Jim Brown would have fit any system.........and made it better. The Browns had their bruiser Fullback back then and were a west coast offense. Boom, there is Brown and wala the Browns become a dominant running team. The message is never say never. As Paul stated long ago.....if you get the big gun shoot it.
How simple is that.........Butkus, Taylor, Montana, Rice, Polamalu................simple and excellent.........and that is what winners do........create a system but never allow the system to IGNORE REALITY
Wow, alot of, well lets just say to create a system but never allow the system to ignore reality is something that can only happen if the FO buys in on the approach and works TOGETHER to acheive it.
Its actually a very simple and eloquent way to streamline an organization.
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@jadbf said:
Ahh but here's the rub...THEY HAD NO IDEA Tom Brady would be that good. If they did, why was Bledso starting ahead of him? And for every Brady and Samuel they picked, they've had some flops...again....scouting is a CRAP SHOOT.NE is sucessful because they scheme and coach well no matter who the player is. Hence your cassell example....
I mean hell, if you read any older inteview about Brady, he was almost out the door at one point. He found coaches notes on him that ripped him apart and how they had no faith in him to develop. Then he stepped up his work, spent more time getting coached, and studying film to make sure he did everything he could to be successful.
Or heck, by the middle of this past preseaon there was talk that NE was looking to get someone else to be Brady's back up. They even talked about bringing back Testeverde.
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@jadbf said:
OUR orignal opinion was that it really doesn't matter what the SCHMOES name is who goes to the college games and writes the cute little scouting reports. What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same. What set's the Savage's apart fom the Pioli's, Newsomes, and others is figuring out that last 5% and how each individual player will fit into what scheme you are trying to build.and as Rich said. periodically there is that phenominal athlete that trancends systems and schemes and yeah you have to take that player if given the chance, and then adjust your system. But I think Rich and I might differ on how often a player like that is even in a draft.
NO...The question was why and how do the steelers continue to find guys like Harrison and Willie parker yet no one has backed the truck up for Colbert or ANY of his staff? i make an off hand remark about stealing some of there staff and you go off the deep end.
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@jadbf said:
Ahh but here's the rub...THEY HAD NO IDEA Tom Brady would be that good. If they did, why was Bledso starting ahead of him? And for every Brady and Samuel they picked, they've had some flops...again....scouting is a CRAP SHOOT.NE is sucessful because they scheme and coach well no matter who the player is. Hence your cassell example....
I mean hell, if you read any older inteview about Brady, he was almost out the door at one point. He found coaches notes on him that ripped him apart and how they had no faith in him to develop. Then he stepped up his work, spent more time getting coached, and studying film to make sure he did everything he could to be successful.
Or heck, by the middle of this past preseaon there was talk that NE was looking to get someone else to be Brady's back up. They even talked about bringing back Testeverde.
Masters said:
I mean hell, if you read any older inteview about Brady, he was almost out the door at one point. He found coaches notes on him that ripped him apart and how they had no faith in him to develop. Then he stepped up his work, spent more time getting coached, and studying film to make sure he did everything he could to be successful.Or heck, by the middle of this past preseaon there was talk that NE was looking to get someone else to be Brady's back up. They even talked about bringing back Testeverde.
YOU say that I say No one placed Value on his HEART!
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@jadbf said:
OUR orignal opinion was that it really doesn't matter what the SCHMOES name is who goes to the college games and writes the cute little scouting reports. What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same. What set's the Savage's apart fom the Pioli's, Newsomes, and others is figuring out that last 5% and how each individual player will fit into what scheme you are trying to build.and as Rich said. periodically there is that phenominal athlete that trancends systems and schemes and yeah you have to take that player if given the chance, and then adjust your system. But I think Rich and I might differ on how often a player like that is even in a draft.
Exact JADBF!
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Good post Jabdf, but yes indeed I am wanting that unusual athlete and nothing is for sure so I do go after that athlete every chance I get......I think Paul Brown would agree with me
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@jadbf said:
OUR orignal opinion was that it really doesn't matter what the SCHMOES name is who goes to the college games and writes the cute little scouting reports. What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same. What set's the Savage's apart fom the Pioli's, Newsomes, and others is figuring out that last 5% and how each individual player will fit into what scheme you are trying to build.and as Rich said. periodically there is that phenominal athlete that trancends systems and schemes and yeah you have to take that player if given the chance, and then adjust your system. But I think Rich and I might differ on how often a player like that is even in a draft.
NO...The question was why and how do the steelers continue to find guys like Harrison and Willie parker yet no one has backed the truck up for Colbert or ANY of his staff? i make an off hand remark about stealing some of there staff and you go off the deep end.
NO...The question was why and how do the steelers continue to find guys like Harrison and Willie parker yet no one has backed the truck up for Colbert or ANY of his staff?
How does AJ Smith and his staff find the guys I pointed out? Yet no one is trying to go get him away from SD or members of his staff.
As I said earlier, Colbert is the GM already for PIT. He doesn't report to a coach, like Pioli essentially did. He already reports directly to the owners. No one backs up the truck for Colbert because you next to never see another team give up picks and everything else it would take to take away a current GM from another team.
As to guys on his staff, see the AJ Smith example. Your guess is as good as mine. I'd venture that it is simple, no one on Colberts staff is seen around the NFL as being able to be that decision maker as an NFL GM.
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Good post Jabdf, but yes indeed I am wanting that unusual athlete and nothing is for sure so I do go after that athlete every chance I get......I think Paul Brown would agree with me
Good post Jabdf, but yes indeed I am wanting that unusual athlete and nothing is for sure so I do go after that athlete every chance I get......I think Paul Brown would agree with me
Of course Paul Brown eventually pigeon holed that athelete as well. See your example of Jim Brown. Jim got to do a lot more and be even more productive after Paul was fired and the playbook was opened up even more for Jim (sweeps, receiving, etc.).
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@jadbf said:
That was your question orginally. and then you commented on how Koskinis is keeping the Browns scouts and complained. and that's when we jumped in......Stop me if I'm wrong here but...Savage kept alot of scouts from Butchie cause he wanted continuity right? We'll as seen from savages later round picks...hasn't worked out so great, yeah? So Butch's guys, and savage's guys and still here evaluating talent, yes?
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