Question for the Board
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Masters said:
Rich, I'd whole heartly agree with you. Good teams find ways to adjust their existing system to maximize the use of a great talent.The one thing you can't do is go get a massive impact player who will never fit in your system, even with tweaking. There are always will be guys who can only be productive in a certain type of system.
Mostly agree with your premise but Jim Brown would have fit any system.........and made it better. The Browns had their bruiser Fullback back then and were a west coast offense. Boom, there is Brown and wala the Browns become a dominant running team. The message is never say never. As Paul stated long ago.....if you get the big gun shoot it.
How simple is that.........Butkus, Taylor, Montana, Rice, Polamalu................simple and excellent.........and that is what winners do........create a system but never allow the system to IGNORE REALITY
Mostly agree with your premise but Jim Brown would have fit any system.........and made it better. The Browns had their bruiser Fullback back then and were a west coast offense. Boom, there is Brown and wala the Browns become a dominant running team. The message is never say never. As Paul stated long ago.....if you get the big gun shoot it.
How simple is that.........Butkus, Taylor, Montana, Rice, Polamalu................simple and excellent.........and that is what winners do........create a system but never allow the system to IGNORE REALITY
Wow, alot of, well lets just say to create a system but never allow the system to ignore reality is something that can only happen if the FO buys in on the approach and works TOGETHER to acheive it.
Its actually a very simple and eloquent way to streamline an organization.
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@jadbf said:
Ahh but here's the rub...THEY HAD NO IDEA Tom Brady would be that good. If they did, why was Bledso starting ahead of him? And for every Brady and Samuel they picked, they've had some flops...again....scouting is a CRAP SHOOT.NE is sucessful because they scheme and coach well no matter who the player is. Hence your cassell example....
I mean hell, if you read any older inteview about Brady, he was almost out the door at one point. He found coaches notes on him that ripped him apart and how they had no faith in him to develop. Then he stepped up his work, spent more time getting coached, and studying film to make sure he did everything he could to be successful.
Or heck, by the middle of this past preseaon there was talk that NE was looking to get someone else to be Brady's back up. They even talked about bringing back Testeverde.
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@jadbf said:
OUR orignal opinion was that it really doesn't matter what the SCHMOES name is who goes to the college games and writes the cute little scouting reports. What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same. What set's the Savage's apart fom the Pioli's, Newsomes, and others is figuring out that last 5% and how each individual player will fit into what scheme you are trying to build.and as Rich said. periodically there is that phenominal athlete that trancends systems and schemes and yeah you have to take that player if given the chance, and then adjust your system. But I think Rich and I might differ on how often a player like that is even in a draft.
NO...The question was why and how do the steelers continue to find guys like Harrison and Willie parker yet no one has backed the truck up for Colbert or ANY of his staff? i make an off hand remark about stealing some of there staff and you go off the deep end.
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@jadbf said:
Ahh but here's the rub...THEY HAD NO IDEA Tom Brady would be that good. If they did, why was Bledso starting ahead of him? And for every Brady and Samuel they picked, they've had some flops...again....scouting is a CRAP SHOOT.NE is sucessful because they scheme and coach well no matter who the player is. Hence your cassell example....
I mean hell, if you read any older inteview about Brady, he was almost out the door at one point. He found coaches notes on him that ripped him apart and how they had no faith in him to develop. Then he stepped up his work, spent more time getting coached, and studying film to make sure he did everything he could to be successful.
Or heck, by the middle of this past preseaon there was talk that NE was looking to get someone else to be Brady's back up. They even talked about bringing back Testeverde.
Masters said:
I mean hell, if you read any older inteview about Brady, he was almost out the door at one point. He found coaches notes on him that ripped him apart and how they had no faith in him to develop. Then he stepped up his work, spent more time getting coached, and studying film to make sure he did everything he could to be successful.Or heck, by the middle of this past preseaon there was talk that NE was looking to get someone else to be Brady's back up. They even talked about bringing back Testeverde.
YOU say that I say No one placed Value on his HEART!
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@jadbf said:
OUR orignal opinion was that it really doesn't matter what the SCHMOES name is who goes to the college games and writes the cute little scouting reports. What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same. What set's the Savage's apart fom the Pioli's, Newsomes, and others is figuring out that last 5% and how each individual player will fit into what scheme you are trying to build.and as Rich said. periodically there is that phenominal athlete that trancends systems and schemes and yeah you have to take that player if given the chance, and then adjust your system. But I think Rich and I might differ on how often a player like that is even in a draft.
Exact JADBF!
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Good post Jabdf, but yes indeed I am wanting that unusual athlete and nothing is for sure so I do go after that athlete every chance I get......I think Paul Brown would agree with me
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@jadbf said:
OUR orignal opinion was that it really doesn't matter what the SCHMOES name is who goes to the college games and writes the cute little scouting reports. What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same. What set's the Savage's apart fom the Pioli's, Newsomes, and others is figuring out that last 5% and how each individual player will fit into what scheme you are trying to build.and as Rich said. periodically there is that phenominal athlete that trancends systems and schemes and yeah you have to take that player if given the chance, and then adjust your system. But I think Rich and I might differ on how often a player like that is even in a draft.
NO...The question was why and how do the steelers continue to find guys like Harrison and Willie parker yet no one has backed the truck up for Colbert or ANY of his staff? i make an off hand remark about stealing some of there staff and you go off the deep end.
NO...The question was why and how do the steelers continue to find guys like Harrison and Willie parker yet no one has backed the truck up for Colbert or ANY of his staff?
How does AJ Smith and his staff find the guys I pointed out? Yet no one is trying to go get him away from SD or members of his staff.
As I said earlier, Colbert is the GM already for PIT. He doesn't report to a coach, like Pioli essentially did. He already reports directly to the owners. No one backs up the truck for Colbert because you next to never see another team give up picks and everything else it would take to take away a current GM from another team.
As to guys on his staff, see the AJ Smith example. Your guess is as good as mine. I'd venture that it is simple, no one on Colberts staff is seen around the NFL as being able to be that decision maker as an NFL GM.
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Good post Jabdf, but yes indeed I am wanting that unusual athlete and nothing is for sure so I do go after that athlete every chance I get......I think Paul Brown would agree with me
Good post Jabdf, but yes indeed I am wanting that unusual athlete and nothing is for sure so I do go after that athlete every chance I get......I think Paul Brown would agree with me
Of course Paul Brown eventually pigeon holed that athelete as well. See your example of Jim Brown. Jim got to do a lot more and be even more productive after Paul was fired and the playbook was opened up even more for Jim (sweeps, receiving, etc.).
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@jadbf said:
That was your question orginally. and then you commented on how Koskinis is keeping the Browns scouts and complained. and that's when we jumped in......Stop me if I'm wrong here but...Savage kept alot of scouts from Butchie cause he wanted continuity right? We'll as seen from savages later round picks...hasn't worked out so great, yeah? So Butch's guys, and savage's guys and still here evaluating talent, yes?
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What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same.
Exactly my point...........OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT
What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same.
Exactly my point...........OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT
That certainly didn't seem like your point when you commented/complained on how Koskinis is keeping the Browns curent scouts. That's when JADBF and I jumped in about the majority of scouts (not GMs or who ever makes the final call on who to draft) are just about the same.
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seems u found the answer have a decision maker who gets it..........Bill Polian........er Paul Brown............er Bill Belichick.........and that is what it amounts to a decision maker who has brutal understanding and can say to the 95% you guys are full of it and then make a choice the 95% would not
and that is what separates the winners from the herd
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@jadbf said:
That was your question orginally. and then you commented on how Koskinis is keeping the Browns scouts and complained. and that's when we jumped in......Stop me if I'm wrong here but...Savage kept alot of scouts from Butchie cause he wanted continuity right? We'll as seen from savages later round picks...hasn't worked out so great, yeah? So Butch's guys, and savage's guys and still here evaluating talent, yes?
Stop me if I'm wrong here but...Savage kept alot of scouts from Butchie cause he wanted continuity right? We'll as seen from savages later round picks...hasn't worked out so great, yeah? So Butch's guys, and savage's guys and still here evaluating talent, yes?
Only in year 1. Savage revamped the scouting department with a ton of people from BALT. The same people that once worked with Kokonis and Savage in BALT.
We have also seen reports where who the scouts thought should be drafted and Butch chose differed. Same with Savage, the scouts, and RAC. In both cases, the problem was the guy making the final call abandonded his board and went with their gut, which turned out to be wrong. That ain't the scouts fault, that's the decision makers fault.
We have also been down this road on this board many times. You can stack Savages late round picks for the last 2-3 years against any team, and you'll find equal amounts of hit and miss. In day two, it's a crap shoot. Not to mention the majority of second day picks don't start being regular producers for 2-3 years after being drafted.
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What matters is the guy making the final decision who reads all those reports that are 95% the same.
Exactly my point...........OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT
That certainly didn't seem like your point when you commented/complained on how Koskinis is keeping the Browns curent scouts. That's when JADBF and I jumped in about the majority of scouts (not GMs or who ever makes the final call on who to draft) are just about the same.
Masters said:
That certainly didn't seem like your point when you commented/complained on how Koskinis is keeping the Browns curent scouts. That's when JADBF and I jumped in about the majority of scouts (not GMs or who ever makes the final call on who to draft) are just about the same.May cause I think our scouts have failed miserably? You make an assumption about 95% of scouts write the same things...I disagree.
What you are saying is Draft boards, made up of scouting reports, are 95% the same are you not?
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seems u found the answer have a decision maker who gets it..........Bill Polian........er Paul Brown............er Bill Belichick.........and that is what it amounts to a decision maker who has brutal understanding and can say to the 95% you guys are full of it and then make a choice the 95% would not
and that is what separates the winners from the herd
seems u found the answer have a decision maker who gets it..........Bill Polian........er Paul Brown............er Bill Belichick.........and that is what it amounts to a decision maker who has brutal understanding and can say to the 95% you guys are full of it and then make a choice the 95% would not
and that is what separates the winners from the herd
Well I'd say it's the guy who can figure out that missing 5% that is needed to make the right call. But that is splitting hairs.
At the end of the day in NE, it all comes down to BB. Both in who to draft, as well as being able to coach the players he's got.
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seems u found the answer have a decision maker who gets it..........Bill Polian........er Paul Brown............er Bill Belichick.........and that is what it amounts to a decision maker who has brutal understanding and can say to the 95% you guys are full of it and then make a choice the 95% would not
and that is what separates the winners from the herd
Well I'd say it's the guy who can figure out that missing 5% that is needed to make the right call. But that is splitting hairs.
At the end of the day in NE, it all comes down to BB. Both in who to draft, as well as being able to coach the players he's got.
Masters said:
Well I'd say it's the guy who can figure out that missing 5% that is needed to make the right call. But that is splitting hairs.At the end of the day in NE, it all comes down to BB. Both in who to draft, as well as being able to coach the players he's got.
So you are saying at the end of the day......OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT
ha ha ha ha
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Masters, Well, in essence then you agree with me......the geniuses are few and they have a bunch of assistants doing diligence for them. That is why I stay away from hiring the the assistant of brilliance
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Masters said:
That certainly didn't seem like your point when you commented/complained on how Koskinis is keeping the Browns curent scouts. That's when JADBF and I jumped in about the majority of scouts (not GMs or who ever makes the final call on who to draft) are just about the same.May cause I think our scouts have failed miserably? You make an assumption about 95% of scouts write the same things...I disagree.
What you are saying is Draft boards, made up of scouting reports, are 95% the same are you not?
May cause I think our scouts have failed miserably? You make an assumption about 95% of scouts write the same things...I disagree.
What you are saying is Draft boards, made up of scouting reports, are 95% the same are you not?
No, even scouting reports. Go to scouts inc, then Todd McShay, then Mayock, and another other scouts, or scouting services. You can read their scouting reports and 95% will say almost the exact same thing about the same player.
Draft boards by team will vary greatly, because teams have different needs, schemes, etc.
How have CLE's scouts failed miserably? Have you read their scouting reports? Did you see who they recommended? No, you didn't. You saw who Butch or Phil decided to pick. Not who was necessarily recommended as the pick. I mean shit, word was that the scouting department felt CLE should have been drafting Ngata that year, but Phil felt he knew better.
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Masters said:
Well I'd say it's the guy who can figure out that missing 5% that is needed to make the right call. But that is splitting hairs.At the end of the day in NE, it all comes down to BB. Both in who to draft, as well as being able to coach the players he's got.
So you are saying at the end of the day......OPINIONS DIFFER AND SOMETIMES ARE COMPLETELY OPPOSITE WHEN EVALUATING TALENT
ha ha ha ha
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Masters, Well, in essence then you agree with me......the geniuses are few and they have a bunch of assistants doing diligence for them. That is why I stay away from hiring the the assistant of brilliance
Masters, Well, in essence then you agree with me......the geniuses are few and they have a bunch of assistants doing diligence for them. That is why I stay away from hiring the the assistant of brilliance
We just about do on this one (I know, shocking
). Like in all areas of business, you got to have your gurnts do the diligence for you. Then at the top, you take that info and make the best decision based on what you have, plus your own savy. As for the assistant of brilliance, they all have to come from some where. BB was once that to Parcells, as one example. He certainly passed the teacher up. But if your gonna go get one of those assistant of brilliance, you better be damn sure his shine is his own, and not just a reflection from the one above them. Say in the case of Dimitroff of ATL, obviously he had his own shine and it wasn't just the reflection from BB or Pioli.
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