More gun stuff
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There is no gray area, if you've actually studied it.
The heart begins beating at day 22. (Early cardiac muscle cells can be cultured and beat on their own. They can beat in unison if connected)
The sex is determined at conception.
At conception all of the DNA for the human is present within the zygote.
So Science is OK to determine these facts but religion can trump such facts when it's convenient?
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There is no gray area, if you've actually studied it.
The heart begins beating at day 22. (Early cardiac muscle cells can be cultured and beat on their own. They can beat in unison if connected)
The sex is determined at conception.
At conception all of the DNA for the human is present within the zygote.
So please, shine a light on the theoretical gray area.
There is plenty of gray area, if you've actually studied it. That early on, the fetus is less sentient than flies, which we have no problem ending the life of. A heartbeat doesn't define a human. Sex doesn't define a human. The DNA alone does not define the human. Stating facts about the gestational timeline doesn't make this issue black and white.
There is plenty of gray area, if you've actually studied it. That early on, the fetus is less sentient than flies, which we have no problem ending the life of. A heartbeat doesn't define a human. Sex doesn't define a human. The DNA alone does not define the human. Stating facts about the gestational timeline doesn't make this issue black and white.
So are you suggesting there's more to life than a heartbeat, a person's DNA (which scientifically, absolutely defines everything about each human), or it's gender? A soul perhaps?
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There is plenty of gray area, if you've actually studied it. That early on, the fetus is less sentient than flies, which we have no problem ending the life of. A heartbeat doesn't define a human. Sex doesn't define a human. The DNA alone does not define the human. Stating facts about the gestational timeline doesn't make this issue black and white.
So are you suggesting there's more to life than a heartbeat, a person's DNA (which scientifically, absolutely defines everything about each human), or it's gender? A soul perhaps?
So are you suggesting there's more to life than a heartbeat, a person's DNA (which scientifically, absolutely defines everything about each human), or it's gender? A soul perhaps?
Sentience is what sets humans apart from every other form of life, but nice try.
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So are you suggesting there's more to life than a heartbeat, a person's DNA (which scientifically, absolutely defines everything about each human), or it's gender? A soul perhaps?
Sentience is what sets humans apart from every other form of life, but nice try.
Sentience is what sets humans apart from every other form of life, but nice try.
Sentience is a reaction to a stimulus.
It doesn't require saying "ouch" to a pin prick to qualify, but nice try.
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Sentience is what sets humans apart from every other form of life, but nice try.
Sentience is a reaction to a stimulus.
It doesn't require saying "ouch" to a pin prick to qualify, but nice try.
Sentience is a reaction to a stimulus.
It doesn't require saying "ouch" to a pin prick to qualify, but nice try.
Sentience is a spectrum, not a checkbox, but please continue to educate us.
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Sentience is what animal cruelty laws are based on.
Therefore not unique to humans. Please continue to be misinformed.
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You can't deny that the sentience argument applies to abortion law. Clinical complications aren't the exclusive reason that late term terminations become legally complicated. Fetal pain, a measure of sentience, is an argument commonly used against abortions. Brain waves, another measure of sentience also get brought up in this context.
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I never was. Your initial comment was that fetus' share the sentience of the housefly. I countered that just because a fetus can't say "ouch" doesn't mean it doesn't react. Which is why I brought up the "reaction to a stimulus" argument. The embryo/fetus will react to stimuli earlier in development that when the heart begins beating etc. Alcohol, nicotine come to mind.
Again, this is all my response to "how early is too early?" My initial comment, before you introduced "sentience" formally, implied there were plenty of variables early in development where sentience could be applied - not just a listing of development facts.
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You were responding to this from Woody before I even entered this argument
"No I think there is some point in there over half way in where it should be illegal. Since it is a gray area maybe beva little conservative and move the deadline a few weeks less. But I don't think "life" happens at conception and I don't think all abortions at any point should be illegal." -Woody
Your response said this:
"There is no gray area, if you've actually studied it."
Then you listed a bunch of traits of the developing fetus. This list of developmental traits does not show that woody was wrong, even though you seem to think so. You're a dentist, and that carries some weight around here, but the scientific arguments you've presented on this forum have ranged from outstanding (responding to cysko about the niche simple bacteria have filled), to sketchy (this one), to outright wrong (your descriptions of developing universe). I'd like you to back up why you think there isn't a gray area.
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I think you're missing the point I'm making on sentience which is why I brought up the "bunch of traits of a developing fetus". If a fetus will respond to a stimulus, then it can be considered "alive" to a degree. So my response to Woody, is accurate even though you or he may not have the same definition* of "alive." I was providing him an idea of where "life" can be qualified by using your definition of sentience. Woody appeared to be unsure of when life began, which is why he felt theres a gray area. It seems that after that point of establishing "life," he's hesitant on the legality of abortion. I pointed out areas where "life" can be considered, and it makes it pretty black and white.
Heartbeat is kind of a deal breaker for whatever argument it is you're trying to make (I haven't figured that out yet). Time of death is noted when the heart ceases to function.
*I'm amused you've appointed yourself the browns board scientific review chairman with a m.s. in Bio. Congrats on that.
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I mean, as far as matters of biology and the life sciences go I would bet the guy currently studying to be a doctor would be the most knowledgeable.
I also wouldn't consider a heartbeat as any sure fire way to say something is alive. We can stimulate muscles in many ways without them being considered "alive". I wouldn't consider a muscle doing what it is supposed to as evidence that something is alive.
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Legacy,
Gotcha.
A heartbeat is a good definition for life, but a poor definition for human life. I'm okay with destroying a chicken so I can eat dinner, so I have no problem with a woman destroying her less-sentient fetus.
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Legacy,
Gotcha.
A heartbeat is a good definition for life, but a poor definition for human life. I'm okay with destroying a chicken so I can eat dinner, so I have no problem with a woman destroying her less-sentient fetus.
Legacy,
Gotcha.
A heartbeat is a good definition for life, but a poor definition for human life. I'm okay with destroying a chicken so I can eat dinner, so I have no problem with a woman destroying her less-sentient fetus.
So using your chicken example abortion should be legal years after birth? Fine with me. There are a lot of kids I would like to get rid of.
WSS
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Jonathan Swift.
Sure, luck means a lot in football. Not having a good quarterback is bad luck. -Don Shula -
Are the mentally Retarded sentient? Florida could use some clarification, so they can enact a death penalty
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Jonathan Swift.
Jonathan Swift.
Yummy, but no.
So using your chicken example abortion should be legal years after birth? Fine with me. There are a lot of kids I would like to get rid of.
WSS
If you think that a two year old is less sentient than a chicken, you're just being obtuse.
Are the mentally Retarded sentient? Florida could use some clarification, so they can enact a death penalty
Yes, they are sentient. Even people with trisomy 21 have more self-awareness than a chicken.
Nice try fellas. I take it all of you are against pulling the plug on someone who's braindead?
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You'll never get me to agree that abortion is ok, I really don't give a Fuck what the brain activity is after the heart starts beating. If It's not murdered the fetus will invariably develop your vaunted sentience. It's not growing info a chicken its growing into a child
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
Jonathan Swift.
Yummy, but no.
So using your chicken example abortion should be legal years after birth? Fine with me. There are a lot of kids I would like to get rid of.
WSS
If you think that a two year old is less sentient than a chicken, you're just being obtuse.
Are the mentally Retarded sentient? Florida could use some clarification, so they can enact a death penalty
Yes, they are sentient. Even people with trisomy 21 have more self-awareness than a chicken.
Nice try fellas. I take it all of you are against pulling the plug on someone who's braindead?
Yummy, but no.
If you think that a two year old is less sentient than a chicken, you're just being obtuse.
Yes, they are sentient. Even people with trisomy 21 have more self-awareness than a chicken.
Nice try fellas. I take it all of you are against pulling the plug on someone who's braindead?
That person had a chance to live and died. They're not bring denied their right to life
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You'll never get me to agree that abortion is ok, I really don't give a Fuck what the brain activity is after the heart starts beating. If It's not murdered the fetus will invariably develop your vaunted sentience. It's not growing info a chicken its growing into a child
You'll never get me to agree that abortion is ok, I really don't give a Fuck what the brain activity is after the heart starts beating. If It's not murdered the fetus will invariably develop your vaunted sentience. It's not growing info a chicken its growing into a child
Cool story, bro. Until Congress agrees with you, abortions are still legal.
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You'll never get me to agree that abortion is ok, I really don't give a Fuck what the brain activity is after the heart starts beating. If It's not murdered the fetus will invariably develop your vaunted sentience. It's not growing info a chicken its growing into a child
You'll never get me to agree that abortion is ok, I really don't give a Fuck what the brain activity is after the heart starts beating. If It's not murdered the fetus will invariably develop your vaunted sentience. It's not growing info a chicken its growing into a child
To play devil's advocate - which I know you love doing - where does it stop? After all, women produce eggs, all of which have the possibility to develop sentience when fertilized, and men produce sperm to do the fertilizing. Is it immoral to not use every egg/sperm possible to have a baby?
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