More gun stuff
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You were responding to this from Woody before I even entered this argument
"No I think there is some point in there over half way in where it should be illegal. Since it is a gray area maybe beva little conservative and move the deadline a few weeks less. But I don't think "life" happens at conception and I don't think all abortions at any point should be illegal." -Woody
Your response said this:
"There is no gray area, if you've actually studied it."
Then you listed a bunch of traits of the developing fetus. This list of developmental traits does not show that woody was wrong, even though you seem to think so. You're a dentist, and that carries some weight around here, but the scientific arguments you've presented on this forum have ranged from outstanding (responding to cysko about the niche simple bacteria have filled), to sketchy (this one), to outright wrong (your descriptions of developing universe). I'd like you to back up why you think there isn't a gray area.
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I think you're missing the point I'm making on sentience which is why I brought up the "bunch of traits of a developing fetus". If a fetus will respond to a stimulus, then it can be considered "alive" to a degree. So my response to Woody, is accurate even though you or he may not have the same definition* of "alive." I was providing him an idea of where "life" can be qualified by using your definition of sentience. Woody appeared to be unsure of when life began, which is why he felt theres a gray area. It seems that after that point of establishing "life," he's hesitant on the legality of abortion. I pointed out areas where "life" can be considered, and it makes it pretty black and white.
Heartbeat is kind of a deal breaker for whatever argument it is you're trying to make (I haven't figured that out yet). Time of death is noted when the heart ceases to function.
*I'm amused you've appointed yourself the browns board scientific review chairman with a m.s. in Bio. Congrats on that.
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I mean, as far as matters of biology and the life sciences go I would bet the guy currently studying to be a doctor would be the most knowledgeable.
I also wouldn't consider a heartbeat as any sure fire way to say something is alive. We can stimulate muscles in many ways without them being considered "alive". I wouldn't consider a muscle doing what it is supposed to as evidence that something is alive.
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Legacy,
Gotcha.
A heartbeat is a good definition for life, but a poor definition for human life. I'm okay with destroying a chicken so I can eat dinner, so I have no problem with a woman destroying her less-sentient fetus.
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Legacy,
Gotcha.
A heartbeat is a good definition for life, but a poor definition for human life. I'm okay with destroying a chicken so I can eat dinner, so I have no problem with a woman destroying her less-sentient fetus.
Legacy,
Gotcha.
A heartbeat is a good definition for life, but a poor definition for human life. I'm okay with destroying a chicken so I can eat dinner, so I have no problem with a woman destroying her less-sentient fetus.
So using your chicken example abortion should be legal years after birth? Fine with me. There are a lot of kids I would like to get rid of.
WSS
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Jonathan Swift.
Sure, luck means a lot in football. Not having a good quarterback is bad luck. -Don Shula -
Are the mentally Retarded sentient? Florida could use some clarification, so they can enact a death penalty
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Jonathan Swift.
Jonathan Swift.
Yummy, but no.
So using your chicken example abortion should be legal years after birth? Fine with me. There are a lot of kids I would like to get rid of.
WSS
If you think that a two year old is less sentient than a chicken, you're just being obtuse.
Are the mentally Retarded sentient? Florida could use some clarification, so they can enact a death penalty
Yes, they are sentient. Even people with trisomy 21 have more self-awareness than a chicken.
Nice try fellas. I take it all of you are against pulling the plug on someone who's braindead?
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You'll never get me to agree that abortion is ok, I really don't give a Fuck what the brain activity is after the heart starts beating. If It's not murdered the fetus will invariably develop your vaunted sentience. It's not growing info a chicken its growing into a child
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
Jonathan Swift.
Yummy, but no.
So using your chicken example abortion should be legal years after birth? Fine with me. There are a lot of kids I would like to get rid of.
WSS
If you think that a two year old is less sentient than a chicken, you're just being obtuse.
Are the mentally Retarded sentient? Florida could use some clarification, so they can enact a death penalty
Yes, they are sentient. Even people with trisomy 21 have more self-awareness than a chicken.
Nice try fellas. I take it all of you are against pulling the plug on someone who's braindead?
Yummy, but no.
If you think that a two year old is less sentient than a chicken, you're just being obtuse.
Yes, they are sentient. Even people with trisomy 21 have more self-awareness than a chicken.
Nice try fellas. I take it all of you are against pulling the plug on someone who's braindead?
That person had a chance to live and died. They're not bring denied their right to life
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You'll never get me to agree that abortion is ok, I really don't give a Fuck what the brain activity is after the heart starts beating. If It's not murdered the fetus will invariably develop your vaunted sentience. It's not growing info a chicken its growing into a child
You'll never get me to agree that abortion is ok, I really don't give a Fuck what the brain activity is after the heart starts beating. If It's not murdered the fetus will invariably develop your vaunted sentience. It's not growing info a chicken its growing into a child
Cool story, bro. Until Congress agrees with you, abortions are still legal.
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You'll never get me to agree that abortion is ok, I really don't give a Fuck what the brain activity is after the heart starts beating. If It's not murdered the fetus will invariably develop your vaunted sentience. It's not growing info a chicken its growing into a child
You'll never get me to agree that abortion is ok, I really don't give a Fuck what the brain activity is after the heart starts beating. If It's not murdered the fetus will invariably develop your vaunted sentience. It's not growing info a chicken its growing into a child
To play devil's advocate - which I know you love doing - where does it stop? After all, women produce eggs, all of which have the possibility to develop sentience when fertilized, and men produce sperm to do the fertilizing. Is it immoral to not use every egg/sperm possible to have a baby?
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Here's a thought exercise -
Carlos Boozer's first child had sickle-cell anemia. He and his wife wanted to ensure that their second child did not.
They didn't want an abortion for their first child, it never was an option. For their second child, they used in vitro fertilization, which required the fertilization of ~20 ova. Only a few of these embryo did not express the sickle-cell trait, those which did were destroyed. Would you consider Carlos Boozer a mass murderer?
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You'll never get me to agree that abortion is ok, I really don't give a Fuck what the brain activity is after the heart starts beating. If It's not murdered the fetus will invariably develop your vaunted sentience. It's not growing info a chicken its growing into a child
Cool story, bro. Until Congress agrees with you, abortions are still legal.
Cool story, bro. Until Congress agrees with you, abortions are still legal.
Legal and ok are two different things. Legally George zimmerman was within his rights to escalate the situation with trayon Martin and then kill him. That doesn't make it right
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Here's a thought exercise -
Carlos Boozer's first child had sickle-cell anemia. He and his wife wanted to ensure that their second child did not.
They didn't want an abortion for their first child, it never was an option. For their second child, they used in vitro fertilization, which required the fertilization of ~20 ova. Only a few of these embryo did not express the sickle-cell trait, those which did were destroyed. Would you consider Carlos Boozer a mass murderer?
Also, how do you feel about in vitro fertilization?
Explain your comparison. In vitro is sort of an anti abortion. Science using their powers for good and not evil.
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Also, how do you feel about in vitro fertilization?
Explain your comparison. In vitro is sort of an anti abortion. Science using their powers for good and not evil.
Explain your comparison. In vitro is sort of an anti abortion. Science using their powers for good and not evil.
I edited my post above. And you really are showing that you have no idea how IVF works. If you have time, please watch the video. It's from ESPN's Outside the Lines and it's a great example of the dynamic of medical ethics.
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Here's a thought exercise -
Carlos Boozer's first child had sickle-cell anemia. He and his wife wanted to ensure that their second child did not.
They didn't want an abortion for their first child, it never was an option. For their second child, they used in vitro fertilization, which required the fertilization of ~20 ova. Only a few of these embryo did not express the sickle-cell trait, those which did were destroyed. Would you consider Carlos Boozer a mass murderer?
Here's a thought exercise -
Carlos Boozer's first child had sickle-cell anemia. He and his wife wanted to ensure that their second child did not.
They didn't want an abortion for their first child, it never was an option. For their second child, they used in vitro fertilization, which required the fertilization of ~20 ova. Only a few of these embryo did not express the sickle-cell trait, those which did were destroyed. Would you consider Carlos Boozer a mass murderer?
Sort of, yes. I can't agree with them destroying embryos to prevent sickle cell which is a disease that can be lived with
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
Explain your comparison. In vitro is sort of an anti abortion. Science using their powers for good and not evil.
I edited my post above. And you really are showing that you have no idea how IVF works. If you have time, please watch the video. It's from ESPN's Outside the Lines and it's a great example of the dynamic of medical ethics.
I edited my post above. And you really are showing that you have no idea how IVF works.
I've no reason to. I've never had to go the IVF route. So everybody should know everything in your world? My understanding of IVF is that its primarily used to help couples who can't conceive naturally have children. That is at least a noble cause. Abortion somewhat less so
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Here's a thought exercise -
Carlos Boozer's first child had sickle-cell anemia. He and his wife wanted to ensure that their second child did not.
They didn't want an abortion for their first child, it never was an option. For their second child, they used in vitro fertilization, which required the fertilization of ~20 ova. Only a few of these embryo did not express the sickle-cell trait, those which did were destroyed. Would you consider Carlos Boozer a mass murderer?
Sort of, yes. I can't agree with them destroying embryos to prevent sickle cell which is a disease that can be lived with
Sort of, yes. I can't agree with them destroying embryos to prevent sickle cell which is a disease that can be lived with
The median life expectancy for sickle cell is in the 40's. Those with sickle cell are significantly more susceptible to stroke, penile infarction, spontaneous abortions, ulcers, renal failure, and many more symptoms that would make life hell. To deal with these symptoms is going to require a lifetime of close medical attention. That's a huge financial burden that many people are not willing nor able to take on. If I have a low/middle-class income, I'm very much considering an abortion in this case.
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70's with medical advances I just looked it up
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