Jonathan Paul Manziel
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I can't believe I'm saying this..... BUT after taking the time to watch some more film and read a few more articles breaking down Manziel's strengths and weaknesses I'm slowly being converted into a Johhny footbal believer. After spending the past couple months knocking Manziel (with what I will admit was a less than adequate base of knowledge for doing so) I now find myself seeing the other side of the fence. A few quick things I have discovered while studying Manziel that fly in the face of what his lowlights/detractors would have you believe is his modus operandi:
A) "JFF rarely progresses through his reads/lacks pre-snap read ability". Watching some of the Bama game and a few other snippets of Manziel film, I found this assertion to be mostly untrue. More often than not, Manziel does make more than the alleged "one read and done". There are instances where he does lock onto a receiver and the throws not there and he subsequently takes off running, but in my experience the past couple days watching him that seems to be the exeception not the rule. Here is the Bama 2013 film where I cite two great examples of Manziel going through his progressions/making a great pre snap read.
Johnny Manziel vs Alabama 2013:
At 0:29 we see Manziel progress through his reads from left to right, eventually settling on Evans running a deep route down the right sideline. Manziel throws a great pass where only Evans can make the catch.
At about 1:39 we see Manziel make a fantastic pre-snap read. Evans is lined up on the right side of the formation against press coverage. Manziel recognizes the press coverage and begins his read in the center of the field, quickly progressing to Evans. He floats another nice pass deep to Evans.
I'll leave it up to you guys to do your own homework but these are two great examples of Manziel progressing through his reads and making intelligent pre snap reads.
B ) "Manziel repeatedly and consistently breaks the pocket when it's uneccesary and struggles to play within a system." This perception, IMO, is the most parroted, off the mark load of crap there is about Manziel. Yes, Manziel does occasionally get jumpy in the pocket and moves to escape when he could easily just climb. Yes, the plays that Manziel is so famous for, the sandlot, run around like a wild monkey for five seconds and somehow find a way to get the ball to a receiver are a trademark of his. But the fact of the matter is a very large portion of Manziel's production and play comes from WITHIN the pocket and WITHIN the system he is playing in at A&M. Additionally, I believe many analysts and fans fail to recognize just how many designed runs and QB rollouts Manziel ran. What this amounts to is the perception that Manziel's game most resembles that of a highschool level game of backyard football. That is simply a fallacious conclusion. Watch the film (and I mean a whole game or set of games, not just the highlights, lowlights, etc) and you will see what I am talking about.
C ) "Manziel is average at best when it comes to throwing the football." Another unsubstantiated claim. Yes he is far from being a polished passer like Andrew Luck. But the kid can throw a fucking football.... If he can polish up his mechanics (and judging by the leap he made from his freshman to sophomore year at A&M, the kid is capable of making great strides) he has the potential be a very proficient passer. If you watch his games, you will see quite a few demonstrations of his ability to throw with touch and good ball placement.
After taking the time to really check this kid out, I no longer hate the thought of the Browns taking him in the draft, even at no.4 overall. That's not to say I'm all for it, but I can now see the rationale for wanting to do so. To put it simply, JFF has incredible upside and potential, and the majority of the so-called "holes" in his game are overblown and exaggerated by a bunch of schmucks (I used to be one, I know....)who make uneducated remarks about this young man that they heard somewhere else o picked up from watching a few plays. One of Manziel's biggest knocks, his ability to create and generate highlight melting plays, happens to be what makes him so frightening at the professional level. My single biggest concern with Manziel is that he will be unable to tone down the wild, daring side of his game and will wind up being pulverized by some ILB or SS. If he can play smart abd polish up the raw aspects of his game the sky is the limit for this kid. As it stands now, I am still hesistant to endorse going all in on this kid. I'm concerned that his competitiveness is going to wind up landing him on the injured reserve early and often in his career. Nonetheless, I no longer hate the thought of him playing for the Browns, and I can honestly say I can see why so many are infatuated with him. That being said, I still think the JFF bandwagoners love the cock and are a bunch of pathetic douchers!
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dear god
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There were 32 NFL teams and thousands of cameras at the combine.Manziel did NOT impress the Vikings coach with the sideshow.
He's an attention hog, a sellout - I mean, he's "all about football", then he
proceeds to not throw at the combine, so he can have a sideshow with all the media?
Really.
I'm not impressed either. I just don't see him being a smart pick for the Browns.
After that sideshow...I think Derek Carr, and Bortles are the guys who are legit
about being "all about football".
No wonder the Rams and Texans want to trade down.
And yes, Manziel's mo won't make it in the NFL - he may not be able to
read defenses any more than Quinn.
Manziel = .....Leinart with super scrambling ability?
There were 30 NFL teams and only a handful of cameras actually at JF's Pro Day.
Which one was the over reported sideshow?
Further, Manziel isn't really considered a top 5 pick, much less first overall, so the Rams and Tecans trading down have zero to do with him.
Sorry, but the only strong point made in that entire post was "Bah Humbug I don't like JF and that's that".
And I'm not even a JF fanboy.
There were 32 NFL teams and thousands of cameras at the combine.
There were 30 NFL teams and only a handful of cameras actually at JF's Pro Day.
Which one was the over reported sideshow?
Further, Manziel isn't really considered a top 5 pick, much less first overall, so the Rams and Texans trading down have zero to do with him.
Sorry, but the only strong point made in that entire post was "Bah Humbug I don't like JF and that's that".
And I'm not even a JF fanboy.
And GW Bush, and the NFL network, and ESPN. In all fairness, this stuff is getting crazy over reported. They did the same stuff for Bortles and Bridgewater, minus the ex-prez.
Problem is Johnny Legend thinks he's a #1 overall pick talent, at least in his own mind. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I wish the draft was tomorrow, so we could can all the rhetoric.
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I can't believe I'm saying this..... BUT after taking the time to watch some more film and read a few more articles breaking down Manziel's strengths and weaknesses I'm slowly being converted into a Johhny footbal believer. After spending the past couple months knocking Manziel (with what I will admit was a less than adequate base of knowledge for doing so) I now find myself seeing the other side of the fence. A few quick things I have discovered while studying Manziel that fly in the face of what his lowlights/detractors would have you believe is his modus operandi:
A) "JFF rarely progresses through his reads/lacks pre-snap read ability". Watching some of the Bama game and a few other snippets of Manziel film, I found this assertion to be mostly untrue. More often than not, Manziel does make more than the alleged "one read and done". There are instances where he does lock onto a receiver and the throws not there and he subsequently takes off running, but in my experience the past couple days watching him that seems to be the exeception not the rule. Here is the Bama 2013 film where I cite two great examples of Manziel going through his progressions/making a great pre snap read.
Johnny Manziel vs Alabama 2013:
At 0:29 we see Manziel progress through his reads from left to right, eventually settling on Evans running a deep route down the right sideline. Manziel throws a great pass where only Evans can make the catch.
At about 1:39 we see Manziel make a fantastic pre-snap read. Evans is lined up on the right side of the formation against press coverage. Manziel recognizes the press coverage and begins his read in the center of the field, quickly progressing to Evans. He floats another nice pass deep to Evans.
I'll leave it up to you guys to do your own homework but these are two great examples of Manziel progressing through his reads and making intelligent pre snap reads.
B ) "Manziel repeatedly and consistently breaks the pocket when it's uneccesary and struggles to play within a system." This perception, IMO, is the most parroted, off the mark load of crap there is about Manziel. Yes, Manziel does occasionally get jumpy in the pocket and moves to escape when he could easily just climb. Yes, the plays that Manziel is so famous for, the sandlot, run around like a wild monkey for five seconds and somehow find a way to get the ball to a receiver are a trademark of his. But the fact of the matter is a very large portion of Manziel's production and play comes from WITHIN the pocket and WITHIN the system he is playing in at A&M. Additionally, I believe many analysts and fans fail to recognize just how many designed runs and QB rollouts Manziel ran. What this amounts to is the perception that Manziel's game most resembles that of a highschool level game of backyard football. That is simply a fallacious conclusion. Watch the film (and I mean a whole game or set of games, not just the highlights, lowlights, etc) and you will see what I am talking about.
C ) "Manziel is average at best when it comes to throwing the football." Another unsubstantiated claim. Yes he is far from being a polished passer like Andrew Luck. But the kid can throw a fucking football.... If he can polish up his mechanics (and judging by the leap he made from his freshman to sophomore year at A&M, the kid is capable of making great strides) he has the potential be a very proficient passer. If you watch his games, you will see quite a few demonstrations of his ability to throw with touch and good ball placement.
After taking the time to really check this kid out, I no longer hate the thought of the Browns taking him in the draft, even at no.4 overall. That's not to say I'm all for it, but I can now see the rationale for wanting to do so. To put it simply, JFF has incredible upside and potential, and the majority of the so-called "holes" in his game are overblown and exaggerated by a bunch of schmucks (I used to be one, I know....)who make uneducated remarks about this young man that they heard somewhere else o picked up from watching a few plays. One of Manziel's biggest knocks, his ability to create and generate highlight melting plays, happens to be what makes him so frightening at the professional level. My single biggest concern with Manziel is that he will be unable to tone down the wild, daring side of his game and will wind up being pulverized by some ILB or SS. If he can play smart abd polish up the raw aspects of his game the sky is the limit for this kid. As it stands now, I am still hesistant to endorse going all in on this kid. I'm concerned that his competitiveness is going to wind up landing him on the injured reserve early and often in his career. Nonetheless, I no longer hate the thought of him playing for the Browns, and I can honestly say I can see why so many are infatuated with him. That being said, I still think the JFF bandwagoners love the cock and are a bunch of pathetic douchers!
GuNNerGatSKy said:
My single biggest concern with Manziel is that he will be unable to tone down the wild, daring side of his game and will wind up being pulverized by some ILB or SS. If he can play smart abd polish up the raw aspects of his game the sky is the limit for this kid. As it stands now, I am still hesistant to endorse going all in on this kid. I'm concerned that his competitiveness is going to wind up landing him on the injured reserve early and often in his career.
^+1, that's my biggest concern. At least in the highlights, there were plenty of times after a wild scramble, he just heaves up a prayer with terrible mechanics, and Evans answers the jump ball. That's not going to happen in the pros. So yes, I question his decision making. I'm also not overly fond of the way he's gung-ho on over commercializing himself. But I (we) don't have much say in the matter, should the Browns draft him, I'll cross my fingers and hope for the best.
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GuNNerGatSKy said:
My single biggest concern with Manziel is that he will be unable to tone down the wild, daring side of his game and will wind up being pulverized by some ILB or SS. If he can play smart abd polish up the raw aspects of his game the sky is the limit for this kid. As it stands now, I am still hesistant to endorse going all in on this kid. I'm concerned that his competitiveness is going to wind up landing him on the injured reserve early and often in his career.
^+1, that's my biggest concern. At least in the highlights, there were plenty of times after a wild scramble, he just heaves up a prayer with terrible mechanics, and Evans answers the jump ball. That's not going to happen in the pros. So yes, I question his decision making. I'm also not overly fond of the way he's gung-ho on over commercializing himself. But I (we) don't have much say in the matter, should the Browns draft him, I'll cross my fingers and hope for the best.
^+1, that's my biggest concern. At least in the highlights, there were plenty of times after a wild scramble, he just heaves up a prayer with terrible mechanics, and Evans answers the jump ball. That's not going to happen in the pros. So yes, I question his decision making. I'm also not overly fond of the way he's gung-ho on over commercializing himself. But I (we) don't have much say in the matter, should the Browns draft him, I'll cross my fingers and hope for the best.
Agreed. That's what I forgot to mention in my analysis, the prayers he heaved to Evans (hate when that happens, know I'm forgetting something but can't figure out what). I agree that is something that will generally not cut it in the NFL. I have to say though after watching all that Manziel film I'm a Mike Evans fanboy. That motherfucker can go up and catch a goddamn football. IMO, particularly from the standpoint of what the browns need in a no.2 receiver, Evans is the no.1 receiver in the draft. But back to JFF, I think his success will come down to his ability to play smart and not get obliterated. After watching the film I'm convinced he is capable of growing and developing his game in areas of need, again as evidenced by the growth seen from his freshman to sophomore year. Will he stay healthy long enough to mature in the NFL, that is question.
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There were 32 NFL teams and thousands of cameras at the combine.
There were 30 NFL teams and only a handful of cameras actually at JF's Pro Day.
Which one was the over reported sideshow?
Further, Manziel isn't really considered a top 5 pick, much less first overall, so the Rams and Texans trading down have zero to do with him.
Sorry, but the only strong point made in that entire post was "Bah Humbug I don't like JF and that's that".
And I'm not even a JF fanboy.
And GW Bush, and the NFL network, and ESPN. In all fairness, this stuff is getting crazy over reported. They did the same stuff for Bortles and Bridgewater, minus the ex-prez.
Problem is Johnny Legend thinks he's a #1 overall pick talent, at least in his own mind. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I wish the draft was tomorrow, so we could can all the rhetoric.
And GW Bush, and the NFL network, and ESPN. In all fairness, this stuff is getting crazy over reported. They did the same stuff for Bortles and Bridgewater, minus the ex-prez.
Problem is Johnny Legend thinks he's a #1 overall pick talent, at least in his own mind. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I wish the draft was tomorrow, so we could can all the rhetoric.
Why is that a bad quality?
I still think that I'm a #1 overall pick, even if I never pick up a football again.
I would rather have a guy in the middle of the first round who thinks he's a #1 than a guy at #1 who doesn't.
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You can pretty much say that about every QB. They all have their flaws. Teddy is to lean and has to small of hands. Bortles just became a hype this past season and played at a smaller school, very very raw. JM well that has been beaten like a dead horse. Carr, again crappy competition and cant read a D to save his life. A.J. 3 national titles and played in a pro offense and has more starts then any of these guys. LIke always its a damn crap shoot.
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You can pretty much say that about every QB. They all have their flaws. Teddy is to lean and has to small of hands. Bortles just became a hype this past season and played at a smaller school, very very raw. JM well that has been beaten like a dead horse. Carr, again crappy competition and cant read a D to save his life. A.J. 3 national titles and played in a pro offense and has more starts then any of these guys. LIke always its a damn crap shoot.
You can pretty much say that about every QB. They all have their flaws. Teddy is to lean and has to small of hands. Bortles just became a hype this past season and played at a smaller school, very very raw. JM well that has been beaten like a dead horse. Carr, again crappy competition and cant read a D to save his life. A.J. 3 national titles and played in a pro offense and has more starts then any of these guys. LIke always its a damn crap shoot.
Well of course. The point of the post is to have a cerebral, intelligent discussion about the FACTS surrounding JFF's game. Making generalizations and repeating recycled garbage spewed from the mouths of so called experts has become very unattractive to me. There is something to be had in actually doing your own homework abd analysis of a draft prospect. I recommend trying it.
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I think every prospect brings their own great attributes to the NFL. Most have a hard time adjusting to the Pro game and others thrive. I have watched pretty much every game JM has played since he joined the AM. The dude can play and has the heart of a lion, but somehow it all gets lost in the hype by the media. Who is the real Manziel, thats the question. I do not disagree with your assesment, but rather am just getting frustrated with the multiple same threads about him, just worded different.
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I want Johnny Football if we go QB early.
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Um, no. and the above post about the Manziel's Nike crap shows the guy is a commercial sellout already. You bring in Manziel, you bring the circus to town- MHO is Farmer and Pettine are into football, not Barnum & Bailey. JFs goal will be to out sell RGIII- that aspect about his persona makes me want to puke.
Oh, cut the shit it already.
He was offered a deal by Nike, he took it. He's not a sellout, he's a 21 year old.
You'd take the same deal.
Show me anywhere...anywhere...where he made comments about outselling anyone, branding himself, marketing himself, making money, etc.
Every comment at every interview has been about football. Not Nike. Not making money. Winning football games. Then he goes out and has a solid Pro Day, better than the previously thought #1 QB, and you're complaining because Nike is selling his Pro Day jersey to turn a profit? Get over yourself.
Wearing pads and a helmet was a great decision, regardless of the marketing ploy from his manager. You wear pads and a helmet in games, why would you throw without them on a day where you're trying to showcase your skills? It was a ballsy move that paid off and will probably change Pro Days from now on.
You're mad because he hired a marketing manager? That's like getting pissed because a player hires an agent.
So let me just try and list this out to make sense of it:
Pros
-Unbelievable athlete
-Played against top tier talent.
-Played in National spotlight
-Put up video game numbers
-Has natural accuracy and great internal clock
Cons
-Hired marketing major
-Got drunk in college
-Isn't 6'5" 230.
-You don't like his face
That about sum it up?
You do remember his autograph 'scandal' in which he pretty clearly was getting paid to sign autographs?Oh, cut the shit it already.
He was offered a deal by Nike, he took it. He's not a sellout, he's a 21 year old.
You'd take the same deal.
Show me anywhere...anywhere...where he made comments about outselling anyone, branding himself, marketing himself, making money, etc.
Every comment at every interview has been about football. Not Nike. Not making money. Winning football games. Then he goes out and has a solid Pro Day, better than the previously thought #1 QB, and you're complaining because Nike is selling his Pro Day jersey to turn a profit? Get over yourself.
Wearing pads and a helmet was a great decision, regardless of the marketing ploy from his manager. You wear pads and a helmet in games, why would you throw without them on a day where you're trying to showcase your skills? It was a ballsy move that paid off and will probably change Pro Days from now on.
You're mad because he hired a marketing manager? That's like getting pissed because a player hires an agent.
So let me just try and list this out to make sense of it:
Pros
-Unbelievable athlete
-Played against top tier talent.
-Played in National spotlight
-Put up video game numbers
-Has natural accuracy and great internal clock
Cons
-Hired marketing major
-Got drunk in college
-Isn't 6'5" 230.
-You don't like his face
That about sum it up?
I personally don't think that was a make or break thing in drafting him but don't act like the man never tried to get a leg up.
More cons:
Terrible against the blitz
Questionable defensive scheme recognition
I really don't like his face
Don't overrate the SEC defenses, they aren't world beaters.
Okay fine played against top tier talent, got blasted and hit by that talent for 2 years.
Played WITH top tier talent (2 other top 10 picks) and one of which that bailed him out a lot
Short
His face again
Tebow also put up video game numbers
Russell Wilson never put up video game numbers
I don't care about college production I care how that production translates to the L and I'm not sure it does, not at 4.
Were about there in summing it all up.
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i predict a riot.
perusing the tapes of the "greatest" QB draft since 1986, even though i don't really like the kid.................manziel has some ballz. i mean i hated the 'brat' attitude, the lebron connection etc.
BUT
the fact that he does have ballz (yum!) and he is who he is, is rather refreshing to me.
hey if you're gonna suck, suck with your ballz out or hit off the 'mary' tee bidatches.
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Mik,
You're right except for the 'balls (yum!)' thing.
He does have a fuck free world attitude.
Not at Mik,
The one argument that drives me crazy is the whole he played against top tier talent thing. The SEC isn't better than other conferences especially at D. Even if they are, how many starting QBs came out of the SEC in the last 10 years (since they've become the dominant conference)? Cam Newton is about it.
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hey, if he can handle the NFL speed i think JF could be a winner.
BUT we got a GM and a HC who both played DB in the pros....defensive.........
at this point i want to see what farmer is going to do, JF or mack or matthews or mack or gilbert or evans.........
TRADE DOWN!! johnny might be there @26.
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This whole situation reminds me of this old classic. Looks like he went to A&M instead of community college.
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Oh, cut the shit it already.
He was offered a deal by Nike, he took it. He's not a sellout, he's a 21 year old.
You'd take the same deal. No I wouldn't.
Show me anywhere...anywhere...where he made comments about outselling anyone, branding himself, see below marketing himself, making money, etc.
Every comment at every interview has been about football. Not Nike. Not making money. Winning football games. Then he goes out and has a solid Pro Day, better than the previously thought #1 QB, and you're complaining because Nike is selling his Pro Day jersey to turn a profit? Get over yourself.
Wearing pads and a helmet was a great decision, regardless of the marketing ploy from his manager. You wear pads and a helmet in games, why would you throw without them on a day where you're trying to showcase your skills? It was a ballsy move that paid off and will probably change Pro Days from now on.
You're mad because he hired a marketing manager? That's like getting pissed because a player hires an agent.
So let me just try and list this out to make sense of it:
Pros
-Unbelievable athlete
-Played against top tier talent.
-Played in National spotlight
-Put up video game numbers
-Has natural accuracy and great internal clock
Cons
-Hired marketing major
-Got drunk in college
-Isn't 6'5" 230.
-You don't like his face
That about sum it up?
Here's all you need to know- Johnny Football
If that's not selling out, I don't know what is. He can shove that up his ass. Only difference between him and Desean Jackson I can see is he doesn't hang out with gangs, and hasn't played a snap in the NFL yet. Yeah, I've made no secret I don't like him. And I'm fervently hoping the Browns don't either. We're trying to build a team in Cleveland, not a media circus- which is what's going to happen to the team that drafts Manziel- take it to the bank. EDIT: As reported below- there's pretty good evidence JF was already getting paid under the table for his "autograph sessions"- to the tune of $30 a pop. .As above he's in the process of copyrighting "the brand"- guess I'm just too old school to think win a SB or two (like Peyton with Papa John's or Rodgers with State Farm) before you whore yourself out for maximum $$$ RGIII wherefore art thy Subway commercials now? I laugh at you. Maybe if JF really was really into football- he'd take the Andrew Luck approach, instead of taking every marketing opportunity shoved in his face. Haven't seen Andy pulling that sort of commercial shit- because he doesn't have to. Funny Bortles and Bridgewater haven't seen the need either. If that's the way JF wants to make his money, more power to him- that doesn't mean I have to like his style of doing so.
Here's all you need to know- Johnny Football
If that's not selling out, I don't know what is. He can shove that up his ass. Only difference between him and Desean Jackson I can see is he doesn't hang out with gangs, and hasn't played a snap in the NFL yet. Yeah, I've made no secret I don't like him. And I'm fervently hoping the Browns don't either. We're trying to build a team in Cleveland, not a media circus- which is what's going to happen to the team that drafts Manziel- take it to the bank. EDIT: As reported below- there's pretty good evidence JF was already getting paid under the table for his "autograph sessions"- to the tune of $30 a pop. .As above he's in the process of copyrighting "the brand"- guess I'm just too old school to think win a SB or two (like Peyton with Papa John's or Rodgers with State Farm) before you whore yourself out for maximum $$$ RGIII wherefore art thy Subway commercials now? I laugh at you. Maybe if JF really was really into football- he'd take the Andrew Luck approach, instead of taking every marketing opportunity shoved in his face. Haven't seen Andy pulling that sort of commercial shit- because he doesn't have to. Funny Bortles and Bridgewater haven't seen the need either. If that's the way JF wants to make his money, more power to him- that doesn't mean I have to like his style of doing so.
so if nike wanted to give you a shitload of money for being yourself and wearing a logo that most people pay to wear, you'd say no dice?
Lebron signed a deal with Nike worth enough money to last multiple lifetimes and no one cares. A college kid, playing (fiercely) for free does the same thing and all of a sudden it's a mark against his character?
Some people believe that Manziel shouldn't have taken money for writing his name in cursive. I say let the kid get paid, if people wanted my autograph, I'd gladly give it to them for onion rings and a side of sriracha...
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@mike-h said:
I wonder what the age:hate ratio for Johnny Manziel is.
Most of the old timers here are opposed, but I'd like to see a wider sample size.
I'm drinking whiskey till May, fuck this.
I'm 27.
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This whole situation reminds me of this old classic. Looks like he went to A&M instead of community college.
This whole situation reminds me of this old classic. Looks like he went to A&M instead of community college.
I'm sure Robert Downey Jr and Uma Thurman are proud of their work in this Anthony Michael Hall vehicle.
Z
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This whole situation reminds me of this old classic. Looks like he went to A&M instead of community college.
I'm sure Robert Downey Jr and Uma Thurman are proud of their work in this Anthony Michael Hall vehicle.
Z
Zombo said:
I'm sure Robert Downey Jr and Uma Thurman are proud of their work in this Anthony Michael Hall vehicle.
Z
There must have been riots when this movie got snubbed by the Oscar's. I was about 14 or 15 when i watched this masterpiece.
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drafting JFF would be the greatest thing to happen with the browns since their return.Id hate to see him do great if they pass on him, I mean not for him but just for me.
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