Jonathan Paul Manziel
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ame="SCDawg82" post="403853" timestamp="1399422233"]
Surely those arent
If anything he is a shining example that disproves your point. If he had gone higher he would've been even more of a bust.
79 receptions, 858 yards and 4 TD over a 4 year, 24 game, 3 team career. He is currently a free agent and I don't see teams beating each other to death for a chance to sign him.
I feel comfortable classifying his production level in the suck range.
Sure those aren't his collegiate statistics. I could go look, but I'm certain he was FAR more productive than that at Texas.
Sure those aren't his collegiate statistics. I could go look, but I'm certain he was FAR more productive than that at Texas.
So it doesn't matter he can't cut it in the NFL, what does is he was white and didn't get a fair shake? Is that the beyond ridiculous point you're trying to make?
If so you're not doing very well. All of those people you listed in your original post had some other deficiency that caused their stock to drop, not their race.
Shipley and Borland - not elite athletes
Welker - short
Thomas - I was more concerned about Legos and the Power Rangers than the NFL draft at that time but I'm sure you can look up his scouting reports out of college and find an actual fault outside of his skin color that prevented him from being the top draft pick of all time.
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Sure those aren't his collegiate statistics. I could go look, but I'm certain he was FAR more productive than that at Texas.
So it doesn't matter he can't cut it in the NFL, what does is he was white and didn't get a fair shake? Is that the beyond ridiculous point you're trying to make?
If so you're not doing very well. All of those people you listed in your original post had some other deficiency that caused their stock to drop, not their race.
Shipley and Borland - not elite athletes
Welker - short
Thomas - I was more concerned about Legos and the Power Rangers than the NFL draft at that time but I'm sure you can look up his scouting reports out of college and find an actual fault outside of his skin color that prevented him from being the top draft pick of all time.
So it doesn't matter he can't cut it in the NFL, what does is he was white and didn't get a fair shake? Is that the beyond ridiculous point you're trying to make?
If so you're not doing very well. All of those people you listed in your original post had some other deficiency that caused their stock to drop, not their race.
Shipley and Borland - not elite athletes
Welker - short
Thomas - I was more concerned about Legos and the Power Rangers than the NFL draft at that time but I'm sure you can look up his scouting reports out of college and find an actual fault outside of his skin color that prevented him from being the top draft pick of all time.
So... Are you draft athletes or football players?! You arent too young to remember Darrius Heywood Bey. His production was garbage next to Shipley's. If you took Shipley's production, his quantitative numbers from the combine, there's no way that player goes past the top 10, but less past the whole first round.
Your argument with welker is short? dude.....Nevermind.....
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So it doesn't matter he can't cut it in the NFL, what does is he was white and didn't get a fair shake? Is that the beyond ridiculous point you're trying to make?
If so you're not doing very well. All of those people you listed in your original post had some other deficiency that caused their stock to drop, not their race.
Shipley and Borland - not elite athletes
Welker - short
Thomas - I was more concerned about Legos and the Power Rangers than the NFL draft at that time but I'm sure you can look up his scouting reports out of college and find an actual fault outside of his skin color that prevented him from being the top draft pick of all time.
So... Are you draft athletes or football players?! You arent too young to remember Darrius Heywood Bey. His production was garbage next to Shipley's. If you took Shipley's production, his quantitative numbers from the combine, there's no way that player goes past the top 10, but less past the whole first round.
Your argument with welker is short? dude.....Nevermind.....
So it doesn't matter he can't cut it in the NFL, what does is he was white and didn't get a fair shake? Is that the beyond ridiculous point you're trying to make?
If so you're not doing very well. All of those people you listed in your original post had some other deficiency that caused their stock to drop, not their race.
Shipley and Borland - not elite athletes
Welker - short
Thomas - I was more concerned about Legos and the Power Rangers than the NFL draft at that time but I'm sure you can look up his scouting reports out of college and find an actual fault outside of his skin color that prevented him from being the top draft pick of all time.
So... Are you draft athletes or football players?! You arent too young to remember Darrius Heywood Bey. His production was garbage next to Shipley's. If you took Shipley's production, his quantitative numbers from the combine, there's no way that player goes past the top 10, but less past the whole first round.
Your argument with welker is short? dude.....Nevermind.....
The biggest reason DHB was drafted at 7 was due to Al Davis so not the best example. However drafting a prospect is as much about his potential as his college production. DHB possessed the raw athletic ability to have a much higher potential than Shipley ever did. While DHB was a reach a 7, he would've been taken higher than Shipley regardless. You can't teach speed or height.
As for Welker, he is short for an NFL WR. He also doesn't have prototypical top line speed you look for in a first round draft pick either. Where he does excel is his quickness, agility, knowledge of the game and his ability to find soft spots in coverage. It's tough to spot some of that ability when all of your game tape is in Mike Leech's air raid offense.
(FYI Welker is a bit of a folk hero down here in Oklahoma due to him growing up in OKC, being a classic underdog and all.)
Nice try attempting to dismiss my knowledge of him though. Would you like to continue to make an ass of yourself or would you prefer to just chalk this one up as a loss?
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This is what I have been saying for the past two days. Haslam is the only one in the FO who wants Manziel, the only one who has him rated high. The actual people with football knowledge don't even have him in their top 3 QBs. Haslam said weeks ago that he wouldn't be making football decisions, he is going to let the people he hired do that. IF Manziel is picked at #4, then it means Haslam is full of shit and everything he has promised us he is not.
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I watched that entire JF vs Duke video. When exactly did he run dudes over?
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@walterwhite said:
You don't know what ANY GM wants at this point, NOBODY does.
It's all smoke, mirrors, and everyone trying to fuck the other guy on the deal.
It's pure chaos in draft rooms right now, everyone fielding calls, offers, etc.
Just sit back, relax, and wait for the draft.
But I do know what the BROWNS GM has ranked as his #1 and #3 QB, with the 2nd ranked QB slipping my mind. I will say it is not where near what the media is claiming the order should be.
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So it doesn't matter he can't cut it in the NFL, what does is he was white and didn't get a fair shake? Is that the beyond ridiculous point you're trying to make?
If so you're not doing very well. All of those people you listed in your original post had some other deficiency that caused their stock to drop, not their race.
Shipley and Borland - not elite athletes
Welker - short
Thomas - I was more concerned about Legos and the Power Rangers than the NFL draft at that time but I'm sure you can look up his scouting reports out of college and find an actual fault outside of his skin color that prevented him from being the top draft pick of all time.
So... Are you draft athletes or football players?! You arent too young to remember Darrius Heywood Bey. His production was garbage next to Shipley's. If you took Shipley's production, his quantitative numbers from the combine, there's no way that player goes past the top 10, but less past the whole first round.
Your argument with welker is short? dude.....Nevermind.....
The biggest reason DHB was drafted at 7 was due to Al Davis so not the best example. However drafting a prospect is as much about his potential as his college production. DHB possessed the raw athletic ability to have a much higher potential than Shipley ever did. While DHB was a reach a 7, he would've been taken higher than Shipley regardless. You can't teach speed or height.
As for Welker, he is short for an NFL WR. He also doesn't have prototypical top line speed you look for in a first round draft pick either. Where he does excel is his quickness, agility, knowledge of the game and his ability to find soft spots in coverage. It's tough to spot some of that ability when all of your game tape is in Mike Leech's air raid offense.
(FYI Welker is a bit of a folk hero down here in Oklahoma due to him growing up in OKC, being a classic underdog and all.)
Nice try attempting to dismiss my knowledge of him though. Would you like to continue to make an ass of yourself or would you prefer to just chalk this one up as a loss?
The biggest reason DHB was drafted at 7 was due to Al Davis so not the best example. However drafting a prospect is as much about his potential as his college production. DHB possessed the raw athletic ability to have a much higher potential than Shipley ever did. While DHB was a reach a 7, he would've been taken higher than Shipley regardless. You can't teach speed or height.
As for Welker, he is short for an NFL WR. He also doesn't have prototypical top line speed you look for in a first round draft pick either. Where he does excel is his quickness, agility, knowledge of the game and his ability to find soft spots in coverage. It's tough to spot some of that ability when all of your game tape is in Mike Leech's air raid offense.
(FYI Welker is a bit of a folk hero down here in Oklahoma due to him growing up in OKC, being a classic underdog and all.)
Nice try attempting to dismiss my knowledge of him though. Would you like to continue to make an ass of yourself or would you prefer to just chalk this one up as a loss?
Are you serious.....? are you really starting a pissing contest on a message board?! Go play with power rangers and lego's little buddy.
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The biggest reason DHB was drafted at 7 was due to Al Davis so not the best example. However drafting a prospect is as much about his potential as his college production. DHB possessed the raw athletic ability to have a much higher potential than Shipley ever did. While DHB was a reach a 7, he would've been taken higher than Shipley regardless. You can't teach speed or height.
As for Welker, he is short for an NFL WR. He also doesn't have prototypical top line speed you look for in a first round draft pick either. Where he does excel is his quickness, agility, knowledge of the game and his ability to find soft spots in coverage. It's tough to spot some of that ability when all of your game tape is in Mike Leech's air raid offense.
(FYI Welker is a bit of a folk hero down here in Oklahoma due to him growing up in OKC, being a classic underdog and all.)
Nice try attempting to dismiss my knowledge of him though. Would you like to continue to make an ass of yourself or would you prefer to just chalk this one up as a loss?
Are you serious.....? are you really starting a pissing contest on a message board?! Go play with power rangers and lego's little buddy.
The biggest reason DHB was drafted at 7 was due to Al Davis so not the best example. However drafting a prospect is as much about his potential as his college production. DHB possessed the raw athletic ability to have a much higher potential than Shipley ever did. While DHB was a reach a 7, he would've been taken higher than Shipley regardless. You can't teach speed or height.
As for Welker, he is short for an NFL WR. He also doesn't have prototypical top line speed you look for in a first round draft pick either. Where he does excel is his quickness, agility, knowledge of the game and his ability to find soft spots in coverage. It's tough to spot some of that ability when all of your game tape is in Mike Leech's air raid offense.
(FYI Welker is a bit of a folk hero down here in Oklahoma due to him growing up in OKC, being a classic underdog and all.)
Nice try attempting to dismiss my knowledge of him though. Would you like to continue to make an ass of yourself or would you prefer to just chalk this one up as a loss?
Are you serious.....? are you really starting a pissing contest on a message board?! Go play with power rangers and lego's little buddy.
You started it my man, I'm just finishing it. I'll take your lack of a response as you waving the white flag. It's been fun.
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The biggest reason DHB was drafted at 7 was due to Al Davis so not the best example. However drafting a prospect is as much about his potential as his college production. DHB possessed the raw athletic ability to have a much higher potential than Shipley ever did. While DHB was a reach a 7, he would've been taken higher than Shipley regardless. You can't teach speed or height.
As for Welker, he is short for an NFL WR. He also doesn't have prototypical top line speed you look for in a first round draft pick either. Where he does excel is his quickness, agility, knowledge of the game and his ability to find soft spots in coverage. It's tough to spot some of that ability when all of your game tape is in Mike Leech's air raid offense.
(FYI Welker is a bit of a folk hero down here in Oklahoma due to him growing up in OKC, being a classic underdog and all.)
Nice try attempting to dismiss my knowledge of him though. Would you like to continue to make an ass of yourself or would you prefer to just chalk this one up as a loss?
Are you serious.....? are you really starting a pissing contest on a message board?! Go play with power rangers and lego's little buddy.
You started it my man, I'm just finishing it. I'll take your lack of a response as you waving the white flag. It's been fun.
You started it my man, I'm just finishing it. I'll take your lack of a response as you waving the white flag. It's been fun.
If I took the time (which I dont have) to look at all the comparable WR's who have been drafted in the first round with the same #'s, id find a TON!
He's 6', 195lb's, ran a 4.5, with a 36" vertical. You couple that with the numbers he put up. 3191 yards and 33 touchdown in his career. Capping off his career with a Nat'l championship game performance of 10 receptions 122 yards 2 touchdowns (not mention ALL with a Freshman QB that couldn't find his @$$ with both hands and a map). He's got the stats, he's got measurable.
I dont see how you can intellectually honestly argue ALL that. But again, I can even give you that he's a bad example if it means that much to you. I could make a list over the years of players I've seen it happen to. All under the guise of "Athleticism". Its discrimination that isnt even subtle.
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The biggest reason DHB was drafted at 7 was due to Al Davis so not the best example. However drafting a prospect is as much about his potential as his college production. DHB possessed the raw athletic ability to have a much higher potential than Shipley ever did. While DHB was a reach a 7, he would've been taken higher than Shipley regardless. You can't teach speed or height.
As for Welker, he is short for an NFL WR. He also doesn't have prototypical top line speed you look for in a first round draft pick either. Where he does excel is his quickness, agility, knowledge of the game and his ability to find soft spots in coverage. It's tough to spot some of that ability when all of your game tape is in Mike Leech's air raid offense.
(FYI Welker is a bit of a folk hero down here in Oklahoma due to him growing up in OKC, being a classic underdog and all.)
Nice try attempting to dismiss my knowledge of him though. Would you like to continue to make an ass of yourself or would you prefer to just chalk this one up as a loss?
Are you serious.....? are you really starting a pissing contest on a message board?! Go play with power rangers and lego's little buddy.
You started it my man, I'm just finishing it. I'll take your lack of a response as you waving the white flag. It's been fun.
You started it my man, I'm just finishing it. I'll take your lack of a response as you waving the white flag. It's been fun.
And while were on this subject. I got another guy for ya. I'm really pumped to hear your explanation for him!
Peter Warrick. #4 Overall Pick for the Cincy Bengals in 2000.
5-11 190. Similar statistics, but ran a high end 4.6 almost a 4.7 in the 40.
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@mike-h said:
I blog with Shawn at Dawg Pound Nation, and have met his source... he has been right about everything this offseason:
ha! you are funny. shawn at dawg pound nation. GTFO of here. shawn? we all know him as.............well shawn from dawg pound nation which means absolutely nothing. i'm sure shawn is sitting in with jimmy, ray and mike in the war room discussing their big board.
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You started it my man, I'm just finishing it. I'll take your lack of a response as you waving the white flag. It's been fun.
If I took the time (which I dont have) to look at all the comparable WR's who have been drafted in the first round with the same #'s, id find a TON!
He's 6', 195lb's, ran a 4.5, with a 36" vertical. You couple that with the numbers he put up. 3191 yards and 33 touchdown in his career. Capping off his career with a Nat'l championship game performance of 10 receptions 122 yards 2 touchdowns (not mention ALL with a Freshman QB that couldn't find his @$$ with both hands and a map). He's got the stats, he's got measurable.
I dont see how you can intellectually honestly argue ALL that. But again, I can even give you that he's a bad example if it means that much to you. I could make a list over the years of players I've seen it happen to. All under the guise of "Athleticism". Its discrimination that isnt even subtle.
If I took the time (which I dont have) to look at all the comparable WR's who have been drafted in the first round with the same #'s, id find a TON!
He's 6', 195lb's, ran a 4.5, with a 36" vertical. You couple that with the numbers he put up. 3191 yards and 33 touchdown in his career. Capping off his career with a Nat'l championship game performance of 10 receptions 122 yards 2 touchdowns (not mention ALL with a Freshman QB that couldn't find his @$$ with both hands and a map). He's got the stats, he's got measurable.
I dont see how you can intellectually honestly argue ALL that. But again, I can even give you that he's a bad example if it means that much to you. I could make a list over the years of players I've seen it happen to. All under the guise of "Athleticism". Its discrimination that isnt even subtle.
I can't speak on Warrick as he was before my time but I can speak on Shipley.
He was product of a spread offense that at the time (and still a bit presently) is difficult for scouts to decipher in terms of production and how it will translate to the NFL. He also played on a loaded Texas team that relied on screens, bubble screens, and simple short passes. Shipley's job was to catch short passes in space and advance it as far as he could. He didn't break massive amounts of tackles or rack up large amounts of yards after contact (such as Watkins this year) that would warrant a high draft pick. I guarantee if Watkins didn't break all those tackles and rack up all of that YAC, he wouldn't be in consideration for a top 5 draft pick.
You can also look at Texas' spotty record of WR making it in the NFL (Roy Williams would be their best product) or the Big 12's (a predominantly spread offensive conference) spotty record of producing NFL caliber WR's at the time and there is enough evidence to suggest a spread WR couldn't cut it in the NFL. Granted that's changed now with the success of Welker (which took a few years), Dez, Maclin, and to a lesser extent Crabtree (his production hasn't justified his draft spot although that could be more due to Seattle's offensive mementality) and Blackmon (if he could ever get his life in order.)
Bottom line race had nothing to do with Shipley or Welker or potentially Borland dropping in the draft. Each have/had enough question marks and limitations to cause their draft stock to fall.
Personally I think Borland will be a steal in this draft but ILB production in college is generally considered a better indicator of NFL ability than WR production in college.
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Good
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Good
I dig the avatar. They'd have my vote.
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If I took the time (which I dont have) to look at all the comparable WR's who have been drafted in the first round with the same #'s, id find a TON!
He's 6', 195lb's, ran a 4.5, with a 36" vertical. You couple that with the numbers he put up. 3191 yards and 33 touchdown in his career. Capping off his career with a Nat'l championship game performance of 10 receptions 122 yards 2 touchdowns (not mention ALL with a Freshman QB that couldn't find his @$$ with both hands and a map). He's got the stats, he's got measurable.
I dont see how you can intellectually honestly argue ALL that. But again, I can even give you that he's a bad example if it means that much to you. I could make a list over the years of players I've seen it happen to. All under the guise of "Athleticism". Its discrimination that isnt even subtle.
I can't speak on Warrick as he was before my time but I can speak on Shipley.
He was product of a spread offense that at the time (and still a bit presently) is difficult for scouts to decipher in terms of production and how it will translate to the NFL. He also played on a loaded Texas team that relied on screens, bubble screens, and simple short passes. Shipley's job was to catch short passes in space and advance it as far as he could. He didn't break massive amounts of tackles or rack up large amounts of yards after contact (such as Watkins this year) that would warrant a high draft pick. I guarantee if Watkins didn't break all those tackles and rack up all of that YAC, he wouldn't be in consideration for a top 5 draft pick.
You can also look at Texas' spotty record of WR making it in the NFL (Roy Williams would be their best product) or the Big 12's (a predominantly spread offensive conference) spotty record of producing NFL caliber WR's at the time and there is enough evidence to suggest a spread WR couldn't cut it in the NFL. Granted that's changed now with the success of Welker (which took a few years), Dez, Maclin, and to a lesser extent Crabtree (his production hasn't justified his draft spot although that could be more due to Seattle's offensive mementality) and Blackmon (if he could ever get his life in order.)
Bottom line race had nothing to do with Shipley or Welker or potentially Borland dropping in the draft. Each have/had enough question marks and limitations to cause their draft stock to fall.
Personally I think Borland will be a steal in this draft but ILB production in college is generally considered a better indicator of NFL ability than WR production in college.
I can't speak on Warrick as he was before my time but I can speak on Shipley.
He was product of a spread offense that at the time (and still a bit presently) is difficult for scouts to decipher in terms of production and how it will translate to the NFL. He also played on a loaded Texas team that relied on screens, bubble screens, and simple short passes. Shipley's job was to catch short passes in space and advance it as far as he could. He didn't break massive amounts of tackles or rack up large amounts of yards after contact (such as Watkins this year) that would warrant a high draft pick. I guarantee if Watkins didn't break all those tackles and rack up all of that YAC, he wouldn't be in consideration for a top 5 draft pick.
You can also look at Texas' spotty record of WR making it in the NFL (Roy Williams would be their best product) or the Big 12's (a predominantly spread offensive conference) spotty record of producing NFL caliber WR's at the time and there is enough evidence to suggest a spread WR couldn't cut it in the NFL. Granted that's changed now with the success of Welker (which took a few years), Dez, Maclin, and to a lesser extent Crabtree (his production hasn't justified his draft spot although that could be more due to Seattle's offensive mementality) and Blackmon (if he could ever get his life in order.)
Bottom line race had nothing to do with Shipley or Welker or potentially Borland dropping in the draft. Each have/had enough question marks and limitations to cause their draft stock to fall.
Personally I think Borland will be a steal in this draft but ILB production in college is generally considered a better indicator of NFL ability than WR production in college.
You can speak to Warrick. I just told you. Same height, weight, stats, but he was slower. Past 10 yrs or so I haven't paid as much attention to football as I had previously in my life. I don't feel like Manziel has dropped cause of race. But plenty do, at certain positions. we won't go into running backs.
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I'm sticking by an earlier statement that if we take Johnny Manziel at #4, it is because Haslam pulls the owner card and does what he has promised all he wouldn't do and that is pull rank over the guys he hired to run the team. I'm sure Farmer does like Manziel, but I don't think he likes him at #4 and I don't even think he is Farmers highest rated QB.
I'm sticking by an earlier statement that if we take Johnny Manziel at #4, it is because Haslam pulls the owner card and does what he has promised all he wouldn't do and that is pull rank over the guys he hired to run the team. I'm sure Farmer does like Manziel, but I don't think he likes him at #4 and I don't even think he is Farmers highest rated QB.
Rest easy son- at least if you want to believe Pettine.
XxDaBuckeyexX said:
If Manziel was 2 inches taller hed be the unanimous first pick. If Manziel was black he'd be the unanimous first pick. Let that sink in for a second.
But he's not 2" taller, white or black has nothing to do with it either. If he was 100 pounds heavier, he'd make a heck of a nose tackle. And if he was William Wallace (Braveheart), he'd be able to shoot balls of fire out of his ass. I think some of the Johnny lovers already think he's capable of that.
He ran over many duke defenders much larger than him.. thanks
And how many of those Duke defenders are going to be playing on Sunday? None? Got any video of him running over C J Mosley or Dee Ford? Out running Clinton Dix?
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