Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Just a little note of caution for all Browns fans both old timers here and new ones like me who are loyal to JFF.
It is well known that Johnny actually participates as an anonymous poster on the best A&M boards and will likely do the same on the best Browns boards like this one.
So be careful who you insult. He will be a new poster just like the rest of us showing up here. It was an ongoing guessing game to figure out who he was on Texags.com.
My guess is WalterWhite
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What I liked on this set of downs was that he stayed in the pocket as long as he could. I watched him going through processions to at least 2nd and even 3rd receiver on one of the downs..
I think the word you were looking for was "progressions"...
I know you are having fun, but you are pretending you are evaluating a QB by watching the QB. You are not seeing the whole field, so you cannot tell whether progressing from his primary to his secondary was warranted.
On the first series first pass here's what I saw:
- In the initial sideline view it appeared Evans (split right) was his primary because JM looked right first. The corner was playing off so it looked like if Evans curled at the line to gain, then the first down was a cinch. I can't be sure, but I do not think Evans curled... it may not have been an option for him.
- The endzone replay shows that next JM looks at double crossing routes just beyond the line to gain; he wisely does not force a throw into three defenders, but a moment later the receiver crossing right to left breaks clear by two steps and the throw is not made.
- JM then pulls the ball down and takes off... at least he slid at the end.
That JM misses a lot of throw opportunities was well documented by analyst after analyst leading up to the draft.
The kid is exciting, but he is also raw. The is, after all, still a kid having only played 2 years at the college level. And he is about to play against bigger faster stronger players than he has ever seen.
Fans, even his most ardent ones, would be wise to wait patiently for his time to come.
I think the word you were looking for was "progressions"...
I know you are having fun, but you are pretending you are evaluating a QB by watching the QB. You are not seeing the whole field, so you cannot tell whether progressing from his primary to his secondary was warranted.
On the first series first pass here's what I saw:
- In the initial sideline view it appeared Evans (split right) was his primary because JM looked right first. The corner was playing off so it looked like if Evans curled at the line to gain, then the first down was a cinch. I can't be sure, but I do not think Evans curled... it may not have been an option for him.
- The endzone replay shows that next JM looks at double crossing routes just beyond the line to gain; he wisely does not force a throw into three defenders, but a moment later the receiver crossing right to left breaks clear by two steps and the throw is not made.
- JM then pulls the ball down and takes off... at least he slid at the end.
That JM misses a lot of throw opportunities was well documented by analyst after analyst leading up to the draft.
The kid is exciting, but he is also raw. The is, after all, still a kid having only played 2 years at the college level. And he is about to play against bigger faster stronger players than he has ever seen.
Fans, even his most ardent ones, would be wise to wait patiently for his time to come.
Exactly- it was also pointed out JF didn't have to call out the line blocking @ A&M. If he misses something like that in the Pros and doesn't convey that to Mack, he's going to get killed.
For the Die Hard Browns Fans-apologies for giving hope. We understand the pain it brings when you get it back only to have it dashed again and again and again.
MY hope is that this staff uses him as wisely as Seattle has used Russell Wilson. Teach him how to be a real pro QB, but don't squash that improvisational "It" factor that makes him unique.
Tom Landry did it with this guy some years ago for those of you who have never seen him play. He had that same scrambling "It" factor and Landry tamed it down to fit the pros witout losing "It",
That style can translate to the pros if done properly.
I'm not saying his style of play can't translate to the Pros- but should he continue to scramble and dance the way we've all seen him do, he's going to wind up like RG III with an ACL in short order. Running qbs tend to have short shelf lives in the Pros- looking at JF, probably the closest comparison I can think of is Michael Vick- and not to be insulting, MHO is Vick has (had) every bit as much talent as Manziel- and probably more. A little FYI for ya here. There are legions of Ohio State fans that also post on this Board- I like to think we know a thing or two about the college game, and how it translates to the Pros- or doesn't. Also us guys who are on the high side of 40 (some of us way on the high side) don't get overly awed by college highlights. I've seen more than one college qb Heisman winner flop badly in the Pros- so I'll withhold my adulation until JF actually does something- and for more than one year. We had a six game wonder on the Browns named Derek Anderson for reference.
Just a little note of caution for all Browns fans both old timers here and new ones like me who are loyal to JFF.
It is well known that Johnny actually participates as an anonymous poster on the best A&M boards and will likely do the same on the best Browns boards like this one.
So be careful who you insult. He will be a new poster just like the rest of us showing up here. It was an ongoing guessing game to figure out who he was on Texags.com.
Great- bring it on JF. A little criticism will do you a lot of good.
My guess is WalterWhite
ROTFLMAO!
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Just a little note of caution for all Browns fans both old timers here and new ones like me who are loyal to JFF.
It is well known that Johnny actually participates as an anonymous poster on the best A&M boards and will likely do the same on the best Browns boards like this one.
So be careful who you insult. He will be a new poster just like the rest of us showing up here. It was an ongoing guessing game to figure out who he was on Texags.com.
You mean we should not call him Johnny Cum Lately?
(Actually, it would be very entertaining to have a player participate here...even anonymously)
I mean, one day he could even become as legendary as Zombo, or Ghoolie....or The Gipper thank you very much and others.
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Just a little note of caution for all Browns fans both old timers here and new ones like me who are loyal to JFF.
It is well known that Johnny actually participates as an anonymous poster on the best A&M boards and will likely do the same on the best Browns boards like this one.
So be careful who you insult. He will be a new poster just like the rest of us showing up here. It was an ongoing guessing game to figure out who he was on Texags.com.
My guess is WalterWhite
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For the Die Hard Browns Fans-apologies for giving hope. We understand the pain it brings when you get it back only to have it dashed again and again and again.
MY hope is that this staff uses him as wisely as Seattle has used Russell Wilson. Teach him how to be a real pro QB, but don't squash that improvisational "It" factor that makes him unique.
Tom Landry did it with this guy some years ago for those of you who have never seen him play. He had that same scrambling "It" factor and Landry tamed it down to fit the pros witout losing "It",
That style can translate to the pros if done properly.
Yes, it "can", but how often has it really translated?
For me any comparison between Manziel and Staubach currently ends at the edge of the field. I remember Roger being a fully matured, confident, yet humble, man with four years of college and a 4-year(?) service stint before he took his first NFL snap. And then he spent the lion's share of his first 4-years on the bench behind Craig Morton. JM is still a kid with only 3-years of college and only 2 on the field. How long can you see him waiting?
I do agree 100% though that you cannot kill that in JM that makes him him.
As for the heartbreaks of the past... I think the impact of those on any JM skepticism is overestimated. Attributing skepticism to our damaged psyche is more of a JM fan coping mechanism than a real thing. Sure there's a measure of cumulative frustration, but I'd maintain that it manifests itself more as hope for JM than skepticism of him.
But regardless, it's a pleasure disagreeing with you, Sir...
It is well known that Johnny actually participates as an anonymous poster on the best A&M boards and will likely do the same on the best Browns boards like this one.
While I could care less whether he posts here or not, I am curious as to why he would choose to be anonymous.
Then again... come to think of it... I am anonymous, too...
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He will be making McD's commercials soon, car dealerships, etc.
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Just a little note of caution for all Browns fans both old timers here and new ones like me who are loyal to JFF.
It is well known that Johnny actually participates as an anonymous poster on the best A&M boards and will likely do the same on the best Browns boards like this one.
So be careful who you insult. He will be a new poster just like the rest of us showing up here. It was an ongoing guessing game to figure out who he was on Texags.com.
You mean we should not call him Johnny Cum Lately?
(Actually, it would be very entertaining to have a player participate here...even anonymously)
I mean, one day he could even become as legendary as Zombo, or Ghoolie....or The Gipper thank you very much and others.
You mean we should not call him Johnny Cum Lately?
(Actually, it would be very entertaining to have a player participate here...even anonymously)
I mean, one day he could even become as legendary as Zombo, or Ghoolie....or The Gipper thank you very much and others.
The real question would be what would he choose as his forum handle?
"I said, 'I need someone who's going to want to get on the roller coaster with me knowing that it's not always going to be fun,'" -Paul DePodesta -
When you Johnny Lovers post videos like this, it doesn't help your case. I saw lots of things in that video that in the NFL will 1) get him killed, 2) turn the ball over, 3) ultimately be a bust............... The more I see these montages the more I wish we would have taken Carr in the 2nd.
When you Johnny Lovers post videos like this, it doesn't help your case. I saw lots of things in that video that in the NFL will 1) get him killed, 2) turn the ball over, 3) ultimately be a bust............... The more I see these montages the more I wish we would have taken Carr in the 2nd.
Not an expert but I watched enough football in my life to see that same thing happen many many times in the NFL, some of the greatest qb's found ways to extend the play when need be. Highlights are going to be the bulk of this kind of play so unless all you doubters have watched the hundreds and hundreds hours of film then you just don't know. I am not fully sold on Manziel but the Browns were not the only ones interested in him. So let's wait and see before trashing his style and before Shanahan gets done with him.
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The more you watch him, the more you like his chances of success. He didnt dominate by accident. He will have to alter his style, and use his escape ability to buy time in the pocket almost exclusively. I said it before and Ill say it again, Manziel was the best thrower in the draft, his elusiveness is icing on the cake. The reason I say hes the best thrower, is that he can throw from any, and I mean any, body position when shit breaks down. I really dont know how he makes some of the throws he does. If he puts staying healthy above extra yards, hes gonna succeed.
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Browns announced that they would not be allowing the national media to attend rookie mini camp this weekend. Said they want the focus to be on all the rookies and they want Manziel to be focused on football. Said they don't want to have a Tebow Mania situation.
Ruining threads since 1897. -
I'm sure lots of teams were interested in him. Just not any of the first 21 teams....particularly in the top 10 where the most needy teams land.
Doubters have reasons to doubt. You honks and "new browns fan"s see him do no wrong.
No one wants any of you Texas honks on our bandwagon. You offer nothing to anyone here other than yanking the manhood of a tiny QB that's gonna struggle adjusting to the game. Please....do us all a favor....get the fuck out.
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For the Die Hard Browns Fans-apologies for giving hope. We understand the pain it brings when you get it back only to have it dashed again and again and again.
MY hope is that this staff uses him as wisely as Seattle has used Russell Wilson. Teach him how to be a real pro QB, but don't squash that improvisational "It" factor that makes him unique.
Tom Landry did it with this guy some years ago for those of you who have never seen him play. He had that same scrambling "It" factor and Landry tamed it down to fit the pros witout losing "It",
That style can translate to the pros if done properly.
Don't you fucking dare coming in here with this shit.
Don't you fucking dare coming in here with this shit.
It is a valid point.
The comparison may be off, but it is valid nonetheless.
It's much easier to teach a game changer to dial it down than it is to teach a one dimensional QB to dial it up.
The it factor is a real thing. When's the last time a Browns QB trotted onto the field when we were down and you thought "He's got this."
For me, it was Brian Hoyer against Minnesota. Before that...I couldn't tell you.
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@mike-h said:
The only people upset about the influx of Johnny/new Browns fans are the same people who were against picking him, and are hoping he fails. True Browns fans, they say... yep.
I'd rather have the bandwagoners (ESPN ranked CLE 32nd in their opening power rankings, so is it a bandwagon?) than the salty old douches who can't accept being wrong and will root against their own team just to feel good about their "analysis" and opinions.
Truly a sad day.
Ah, it's not just the old guys, this has been going on forever ... especially with the QBs.
I happened to like Manziel a lot, had him highest rated QB, just didn't like him at four. Thought he'd be great at 15. Thought we stole him at 22.
I'm a fan. As a mod though, he's a a headache because he is bringing in the whole world and they all want to start a thread. Well worth it if he gets us to the playoffs though.
Zombo
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@mike-h said:
The only people upset about the influx of Johnny/new Browns fans are the same people who were against picking him, and are hoping he fails. True Browns fans, they say... yep.
I'd rather have the bandwagoners (ESPN ranked CLE 32nd in their opening power rankings, so is it a bandwagon?) than the salty old douches who can't accept being wrong and will root against their own team just to feel good about their "analysis" and opinions.
Truly a sad day.
Ah, it's not just the old guys, this has been going on forever ... especially with the QBs.
I happened to like Manziel a lot, had him highest rated QB, just didn't like him at four. Thought he'd be great at 15. Thought we stole him at 22.
I'm a fan. As a mod though, he's a a headache because he is bringing in the whole world and they all want to start a thread. Well worth it if he gets us to the playoffs though.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Ah, it's not just the old guys, this has been going on forever ... especially with the QBs.
I happened to like Manziel a lot, had him highest rated QB, just didn't like him at four. Thought he'd be great at 15. Thought we stole him at 22.
I'm a fan. As a mod though, he's a a headache because he is bringing in the whole world and they all want to start a thread. Well worth it if he gets us to the playoffs though.
Zombo
I'll drink to that.
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@walterwhite said:
Nailed it.
Yes....he did. Dumb fuck mike thinks its because one doesn't like the pick....
Sucks to be a writer with poor reading comprehension.
I'm not interested in johnny fans.....only browns fans. The bandwagoners can fuck off as far as I'm concerned.
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yep. Not having that skill has doomed many a QBs. Weve had a bunch of em. Weeden was the worst ive seen when he had to adjust haha. He was too used to having that mound to throw from.@mike-h said:
I've actually talked to a guy who was a scout for over 20 years -- he said he prefers a QB who can make throws off his back foot and from hard angles/release points, because there's rarely a clean pocket where a QB gets to plant, step and execute a perfect throw.
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That is the biggest asset I value. A guy who can accurately deliver the ball off his back foot, while falling, with a 300 LB lineman on his lower half, has a good chance of becoming a solid pro.@mike-h said:
The only people upset about the influx of Johnny/new Browns fans are the same people who were against picking him, and are hoping he fails. True Browns fans, they say... yep.
I'd rather have the bandwagoners (ESPN ranked CLE 32nd in their opening power rankings, so is it a bandwagon?) than the salty old douches who can't accept being wrong and will root against their own team just to feel good about their "analysis" and opinions.
Truly a sad day.
That's the reason I liked Bortles. More of his throws were from a less than desirable positions and yet he still delivered the ball accurately.
Also why I like Stafford.
Rare is it that an NFL QB gets a clean pocket for ten seconds on perfect terrain with perfectly healthy legs.
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Browns announced that they would not be allowing the national media to attend rookie mini camp this weekend. Said they want the focus to be on all the rookies and they want Manziel to be focused on football. Said they don't want to have a Tebow Mania situation.
Browns announced that they would not be allowing the national media to attend rookie mini camp this weekend. Said they want the focus to be on all the rookies and they want Manziel to be focused on football. Said they don't want to have a Tebow Mania situation.
Good! I like this decision a lot. Sucks for us fans, but it's the right choice.
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Honest point here about why johnny was a great pick even when I don't personally care for him that much.
Let's say he busts....the other 5 players also have a lot of talent, and should be solid contributors based on their position and draft slot. Gilbert will get beat, but he'll also intercept quite a few passes. I think many here are underestimating west.....and bitonio is the ZBS guard this team needed. That should be 3 real good players for this team moving forward. If any of the other picks pan out, and that may happen, bigger bonus. Extra first rounder next year....AND, a well managed cap to react and address deficiencies next year with young guys on rookie deals . So going forward, long term outlook is pretty good.
Now, I know the circus is going to annoy some of you. Be the adult you are and deal with it. Because what I'm about to suggest as best case scenario is gonna have the media pressure cooker ready to explode.
What if we have those 3 players, cap and 2015 draft situation while having a johnny that actually plays above average at the QB position for 5 years? Decent QB play is all weve really needed.....shitty QB play has held us back. If hoyer can man this ship till johnny is ready....half to preferably a full year (getting Gordon back, next year), then this could be our run. THIS could be it. Don't be bitter and miss the very thing you've been clamouring about for 40 years. I understand the win now, but if anyone truly wants a Superbowl, the best course is yo let johnny sit....he has to learn the mental game. If he lines up acroos from a lebeau defense his first game, he truly could get killed. That's chaos compared to what he's used to, and could possibly do more damage than hurting his feelings by making the media sensation sit. If he starts immediately, then I'm going to be worried.
I'm not a johnny fan....but after thinking about the past few nights and seeing how this draft played out, I think we are ready to compete. I don't want another 2007 flash in the pan good season.....I want to beat the hell out of the league, and if farmer and co. can remain patient and keep the media pressure from altering what I think is the actual plan, the browns may be writing important franchise (NFL) history the next few years.
Honest point here about why johnny was a great pick even when I don't personally care for him that much.
Let's say he busts....the other 5 players also have a lot of talent, and should be solid contributors based on their position and draft slot. Gilbert will get beat, but he'll also intercept quite a few passes. I think many here are underestimating west.....and bitonio is the ZBS guard this team needed. That should be 3 real good players for this team moving forward. If any of the other picks pan out, and that may happen, bigger bonus. Extra first rounder next year....AND, a well managed cap to react and address deficiencies next year with young guys on rookie deals . So going forward, long term outlook is pretty good.
Now, I know the circus is going to annoy some of you. Be the adult you are and deal with it. Because what I'm about to suggest as best case scenario is gonna have the media pressure cooker ready to explode.
What if we have those 3 players, cap and 2015 draft situation while having a johnny that actually plays above average at the QB position for 5 years? Decent QB play is all weve really needed.....shitty QB play has held us back. If hoyer can man this ship till johnny is ready....half to preferably a full year (getting Gordon back, next year), then this could be our run. THIS could be it. Don't be bitter and miss the very thing you've been clamouring about for 40 years. I understand the win now, but if anyone truly wants a Superbowl, the best course is yo let johnny sit....he has to learn the mental game. If he lines up acroos from a lebeau defense his first game, he truly could get killed. That's chaos compared to what he's used to, and could possibly do more damage than hurting his feelings by making the media sensation sit. If he starts immediately, then I'm going to be worried.
I'm not a johnny fan....but after thinking about the past few nights and seeing how this draft played out, I think we are ready to compete. I don't want another 2007 flash in the pan good season.....I want to beat the hell out of the league, and if farmer and co. can remain patient and keep the media pressure from altering what I think is the actual plan, the browns may be writing important franchise (NFL) history the next few years.
Go sit and spin mike. Its about all you'd be good at. You mistakenly think I'm against the pick. Try harder next time...actually don't. I enjoy laughing at you.
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