Jonathan Paul Manziel
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You can say all you want that College success doesn't guarantee NFL success, and you're correct.
However it is a pretty good indicator. If you're a great player in college you have a much better chance at being a good NFL player than a player who wasn't great in college.
You're treating it like it's a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot. Those players drafted in the 1st round, were picked because they were great in college. Now some will not live up to it in the NFL, but they're far more likely to become Pro Bowl players than 5th round picks and there's a reason for that.
Your second statement is absolutely incorrect. Every player has exactly the same chance to be good in the NFL as anyone else, regardless of college career. It's not the college career that makes a player successful in the NFL. It's the talent level the player possesses that makes them successful at both levels.
There are an infinite amount of variables that can affect how successful a player becomes in the NFL. Scheme fit, maturity, weather, coaching, supporting cast, freak injuries, player strikes, family tragedies, car accidents - all of those can affect a player's chances of having a strong NFL career.
But having success in college doesn't indicate success in the NFL. Not one bit. It's not a predictor.
Partly because "success" is too relative a term. What is succesful for one program may not be successful for another. Sure, Peyton Manning was a success in college and is a success in the NFL. Same goes for Andrew Luck and RG3. But would you call Brady's college career a success? What about Ryan Tannehill's? What about Nick Foles'? Stafford's? Their careers were, for the most part, underwhelming. Singularly, they were successful players. But they never won a championship, never won a Heisman, never went undefeated.
Jeremiah Masoli had a decently successful career with Oregon. As did Dennis Dixon. Neither of them have amounted to shit in the NFL .
In a way, it is a crap shoot. It's not a crap shoot in terms of talent. Johnny is immensly talented. But what is a crap shoot is everything else. Hoyer may go on to flip a switch and become great. Johnny may tear an ACL in training camp. Manziel may get the start and half of the offensive line may go down with injury.
I love Manziel. I absolutely love the pick. Because, even if he crashes and burns, he'll have brought a bunch of media attention to the team during this transition phase. To those who poo-poo the attention and claim it's negative...there's no such thing as negative publicity. Airtime, whether good or bad, is airtime.
I love Manziel. I absolutely love the pick. Because, even if he crashes and burns, he'll have brought a bunch of media attention to the team during this transition phase. To those who poo-poo the attention and claim it's negative...there's no such thing as negative publicity. Airtime, whether good or bad, is airtime.
Totally agree. Every time I turn on the NFL Network, there are the Browns. Not the Cowboys, not the Stoolers, not the 9ers........ The Browns. It is pretty damn cool. I just finished watching a 7 minute Browns look in and got to hear them discuss the Browns while I got to the see QBs run through their drills....... Good stuff.
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Manziel has enough people in the media attacking him, you'd think he'd get a break from the Browns fans at least.
But nope. Don't want to support the future QB of the Browns. Well why not? Oh because he takes selfies and parties in Vegas.
Sounds fair. What fantastic fans to play for.
And the hate card hits the table... Game Over...
It's been good attempting to talk to you.
And the hate card hits the table... Game Over...
It's been good attempting to talk to you.
'OUR"?
this brian hoyer guy who blows and only has two games under his belt as a NFL starter is making manziel look like a rookie from a division 3 school and you can't handle it.
**eruption of muffled chants "We love Johnny Scrambles!! Hip Hip Hooray!!" from a chorus of cock filled mouths**
Gee I don't know where I get the idea that there is hate.
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Yep, you're right. Johnny is the greatest QB ever. He will win 21 SB's and they will rename the HoF after him. He's really kool, and likes to have fun..... Oh yea, he's really handsome too.
There, you feel better?
This is pretty sad to see some how some of you are.
I remember the days when it was all in. Albert Belle was an asshole, but he was CLEVELANDs asshole. People stuck by their players.
Looks like those days are long gone. Oh and in the meantime you're calling yourself "real fans" by rooting AGAINST our first round draft pick, mocking him, before he even takes a snap in the NFL.
What a disgrace.
This is pretty sad to see some how some of you are.
I remember the days when it was all in. Albert Belle was an asshole, but he was CLEVELANDs asshole. People stuck by their players.
So? Now we got you in his place?
Looks like those days are long gone. Oh and in the meantime you're calling yourself "real fans" by rooting AGAINST our first round draft pick, mocking him, before he even takes a snap in the NFL.
What a disgrace.
Who in the fuck ever said that anyone is rooting against him? That is insane...and totally wrong. I think all anyone here has said is that shalt not annoint him to sainthood yet.
Lets see if he can play and win anything yet. Winning a Heisman trophy means nothing. QBs Eric Croch, Jason White, Geno Torretta and othes won the Heisman trophy. Being a big winner in college means nothing....no one won more college football games than Colt McCoy.
Sorry, but we just need to see him win to be convinced......the same way we needed to see Quinn and Weeden and McCoy win to be convinced.
Sorry, but the skepticsm comes simply from experience....and not from anything negative about the kid.
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'OUR"?
GTFO.
you are as much of a browns fan as i am a TAMU fan. (nice analogy huh?).
what is your game? to beat us down with your diatribe on had bad hoyer is and how good manziel is? what is your payoff? do you really think you are going to sway anyone's opinon?
i know exactly what it is. YOU fear a true QB competition. YOU do care who is the starting QB. YOU will not be happy unless it is manziel.
this brian hoyer guy who blows and only has two games under his belt as a NFL starter is making manziel look like a rookie from a division 3 school and you can't handle it.
Right because I don't think Hoyer is Kurt Warner, AND I'm smart enough to realize that Manziel was drafted at 22 to become the starting QB of the Browns at some point and I can recognize that he was pretty good in the SEC, now I can't be a Browns fan. Makes sense.
Do you think the Browns took Manziel because they thought Hoyer was the answer? Do you suspect they think Hoyer is the next Kurt Warner?
At what point did reason go out the window with some of you? When did you lose the ability to use logic and evaluate the situation? Where is the objectivity?
Right because I don't think Hoyer is Kurt Warner, AND I'm smart enough to realize that Manziel was drafted at 22 to become the starting QB of the Browns at some point and I can recognize that he was pretty good in the SEC, now I can't be a Browns fan. Makes sense.
Having played in the SEC don't mean dick. As many or more failed QBs have come out of the SEC as out of any other conference.
Tim Couch, Tee Martin, Tim Tebow (and a few other FLA types), Jamarcus Russell....I guess I could go on.
Do you think the Browns took Manziel because they thought Hoyer was the answer? Do you suspect they think Hoyer is the next Kurt Warner?
No and no.
At what point did reason go out the window with some of you? When did you lose the ability to use logic and evaluate the situation? Where is the objectivity?
Again and again and again.....if experience is "reason", then that reason went out the window with Quinn/Weeden.
The objectivity is in this statement: This person has to prove that he can be a success where others in similar situations failed. That is pure logic.
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@everlastingxxx said:
Its something that really surprised me when i first joined here. The mocking of him. The putting down of those thats enjoy watching him play. Weird dynamics. I think many of your observations are the same ones i noticed aswell.
I think if there is any mocking it is of JFF's TMZ antics.
As far as watching him play.....well, some of us just weren't as focussed on watching him play
.....and here is a clue for you......we are in the Midwest....in Ohio.....while maybe they were broadcasting every game JFF played down where you are, they were broadcasting Ohio State, Big Ten games up here. Sure, we could see the nationally televised games he played in.....but there weren't as many of those as you think....maybe 2,3,4 is all.
We were seeing Braxton Miller actually run better as a QB than JFF. Sorry, but as a running QB, JFF can't compare to Miller.
Overall? We don't truly know yet.....but JFF seems far ahead at the total game.
And the dymanics are vastly different in the NFL. Observations of what he did in college are all well and good and fond memories....but it starts for real now.
The only observations that will count are the observations we see when this kid plays against the Detroit Lions, Green Bay Packers and the Steelers/Ravens/Bengals.
I hope I observe JFF wrecking those opponents......I do.
But I still have to see it to be convinced.
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Manziel will benefit from not being tossed in right away. Let the kid's knowledge of the game and chip on his shoulder grow.
The TMZ shit doesn't bother me, he's always been the same guy as far as the off the field stuff is concerned. He also showed up ready to play at a high level.
My concerns are the same they have always been: will his game translate to the NFL?
I guess we're strapped in for the ride now, should be fun...
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Once again everyone is getting WAYYYY to heated up over this.
I get the sense there are a fair amount of people who didn't want Manziel, watched the draft with pro-Manziel buddies and instead of admitting defeat are now doubling down with "Well he's going to be a bust" and "He's an embarrassment to the franchise because of his selfies" so they don't have to be "wrong" about the draft.
The point is this, with Manziel you might have a bad player, its possible, we will see. But you also have what the Browns haven't had in such a long time which is the potential for a superstar. And I'm not just talking about star, I'm saying HOF superstar. The potential is there. He did things in the SEC that are extremely rare, and he made plays that none of us have seen before.
Now will that translate to the NFL, we will see, but the chance is there. There is a chance we have the future biggest star in the NFL on our roster. Brett Favre-ish.Now with Hoyer we have a guy who played well for roughly 1 and half games in his career. Now I don't think Hoyer sucks, but I'm not seeing any potential for star here. I do think he could be an 8-8 QB. I don't think he's very accurate, and I do think a torn ACL doesn't help. Neither does Norv Turner moving on.
I have a hard time thinking that this emphatic Hoyer dedication from some fans would be the same if it was Teddy Twatwater that we drafted. I feel like there would a bit more excitement about the rookie. Which makes me think you just don't like Manziel. Which is fine, but don't disguise it as some kind of football conversation where you go "Oh well Hoyer has proven that he is a great game manager". No. Hoyer is nearly as raw as Manziel on the field. Just say "I don't like Johnny Manziel because I think he's a douchebag" and leave it at that. That I understand. So be it, and it's honest and it's fair.
Pretending that the reasons you dislike Manziel or are rooting for Hoyer are based on what has taken place on the football field is absurd. I've seen far more impressive things from Manziel, albeit in college in the SEC, than I saw out of Hoyer against the Vikings and Bengals.
And let's be real here, you know this isn't a real competition right? Manziel is going to play, eventually, when he's ready. He's not competing against Hoyer, he's competing against what the coaches think is "Ready". Once he hits that point, Manziel is the guy. Nobody actually thinks that we're going to go into 2015 with Hoyer still starting do they? 2016? I mean how much longer do you really think Hoyer has? This is already over, it just a matter of WHEN, not if.
The ceiling is so much higher for Manziel so so so so much higher. The floor is about the same for both of these players. How can that not be recognized?
i get that ur anxious to see Manziel under center in the pros but take a fucking breath would you please? how much meth did you smoke today?? jfc.HoyerHater said:
Now will that translate to the NFL, we will see, but the chance is there. There is a chance we have the future biggest star in the NFL on our roster. Brett Favre-ish.
Now with Hoyer we have a guy who played well for roughly 1 and half games in his career. Now I don't think Hoyer sucks, but I'm not seeing any potential for star here. I do think he could be an 8-8 QB. I don't think he's very accurate, and I do think a torn ACL doesn't help. Neither does Norv Turner moving on.
I have a hard time thinking that this emphatic Hoyer dedication from some fans would be the same if it was Teddy Twatwater that we drafted. I feel like there would a bit more excitement about the rookie. Which makes me think you just don't like Manziel. Which is fine, but don't disguise it as some kind of football conversation where you go "Oh well Hoyer has proven that he is a great game manager". No. Hoyer is nearly as raw as Manziel on the field. Just say "I don't like Johnny Manziel because I think he's a douchebag" and leave it at that. That I understand. So be it, and it's honest and it's fair.
Pretending that the reasons you dislike Manziel or are rooting for Hoyer are based on what has taken place on the football field is absurd. I've seen far more impressive things from Manziel, albeit in college in the SEC, than I saw out of Hoyer against the Vikings and Bengals.
the question of whether Manziel's smaller frame and incredibly haphazard and often sloppy back-yard approach to the professional game can have success will be answered in due time.
here's the bottom line, JFF has never played against teams with rosters full of elite talented AND intelligent 4.5 40 running angry man-mountains along with former first rd picks, heisman candidates, and basically the best college players at their positions from the past ten years.
you obviously have no idea what you are assuming this kid can do because you don't understand what you are expecting.
the league is equally a game of inches and politics. its as much "luck" and "officiating" as it is anything. and an 8-8 QB is a 9-7 QB and anyone who can do that can win the SuperBall. you seem to have this fantasy of a bare chested manziel w gladiator skirt and ivy headband riding into the NFL on a chariot and going 20-0 and taking it all.
i think im starting to get it...this must be ur first player man-crush!! how cute!!
you see, what happens when u get completely enamored by one guy and that inevitable day comes when they begin to consistently underwhelm and eventually we must accept the uncomfortable reality that THESE GUYS ARE MORTALS.
the NFL is not some sloppy backyard draw it up in the dirt and go wing it out there type of sport. its an incredibly sophisticated game, played by men who are elite professionals, both on the field and off.
its always very important to read job descriptions thoroughly and carefully so one fully understands the job they are applying for. phrases like "multi-millionaire football player" and "face of billion dollar franchise" carry a little baggage with them worth both understanding...and deserving.
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And the hate card hits the table... Game Over...
It's been good attempting to talk to you.
'OUR"?
this brian hoyer guy who blows and only has two games under his belt as a NFL starter is making manziel look like a rookie from a division 3 school and you can't handle it.
**eruption of muffled chants "We love Johnny Scrambles!! Hip Hip Hooray!!" from a chorus of cock filled mouths**
Gee I don't know where I get the idea that there is hate.
Gee I don't know where I get the idea that there is hate.
don't cry for me argentina.
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VesnaKociper said:
Joe Thomas? LMAO. OH yeah man, he is a REAL Wunderkind................... He has been SO SO SO VERY important in developing the Browns juggernaut offense.
I hope Joe Thomas gets hurt so you can sell that any lard ass can take his place.
Fucking idiots celebrating a LT as a great offensive weapon.
Moron!
Says the guy who plays a faggoty "instrument" and thinks he's talented.
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VesnaKociper said:
Joe Thomas? LMAO. OH yeah man, he is a REAL Wunderkind................... He has been SO SO SO VERY important in developing the Browns juggernaut offense.
I hope Joe Thomas gets hurt so you can sell that any lard ass can take his place.
Fucking idiots celebrating a LT as a great offensive weapon.
Moron!
Says the guy who plays a faggoty "instrument" and thinks he's talented.
Says the guy who plays a faggoty "instrument" and thinks he's talented.
And who has such a lack of self discipline, that he's 330lbs and smokes............... Yea, I'm gonna listen to him.
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BTW, I didn't notice it, but Tour did- if you watch the side by side training camp footage, Hoyer was indeed unloading the ball significantly faster than Manziel.
Aw shucks tweren't nuttin'...
Finally heard one of the talking heads on NFL Network comment on it today. Of course it had to be Solomon Wilcots...
I've been puzzling over what the observation means. Since I do not believe that Hoyer is quicker than Manziel, I can only conclude that JM is not working as hard and/or taking the drill as seriously.
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Based on football logic, Brian Hoyer should remain Cleveland Browns’ starter
So far, the battle for the Cleveland Browns’ starting quarterback job is shaping up exactly as football logic suggested it would.
The more experienced guy, Brian Hoyer, is looking more experienced.
The less experienced guy, Johnny Manziel, is looking less experienced.
That’s the football logic.
The media logic has a different take. The media logic seems to be suggesting that, because he was a first-round draft pick and created tremendous excitement on the field in college and is arguably the most recognizable name/face in all of football, Manziel will be the Browns’ starter for the Sept. 7 season-opener at Pittsburgh.There is no reason to wait, goes the common refrain of those who talk and write about sports for a living, not to mention others who simply love to watch. Let’s see what Johnny Football can do now!
But the first few days of practice at the Browns’ training camp have done plenty to confirm the football perspective on this highly anticipated and well-documented quarterback competition.
In everything he does, Hoyer simply looks more ready to start.
Hoyer is more consistently accurate with his throws and general decision-making. He shows greater command in the huddle and at the line of scrimmage. He gets each play from offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan in the headset in his helmet, and cleanly delivers it to the rest of the offense.
Everything generally runs smoother and more efficiently when Hoyer is at quarterback, which is a big part of the reason he has been working with the starting offense since the first training-camp practice on Saturday.
Not so much with Manziel.
He tends to struggle with the basic communication of plays to the rest of the offense, which is understandable because the language is much longer and more complex than what he dealt with at Texas A&M. He is working under center, which is a dramatic switch from his exclusively being in shotgun with the Aggies.
Although Manziel proved himself to be a tremendous leader in college, he has not demonstrated much of a commanding presence so far because he is too concerned with making sure he gets the details of his own job right before he can show he has a grasp of the offense on a macro level.
When applying football logic, it is clear that the job should belong to Hoyer when the regular season begins.
That does not mean that Manziel has no chance to do something in the meantime to make an overwhelming football case that the job should be his from the outset.
But the reality is that he has a fairly limited amount of time to make that happen, based on the considerable distance he needs to cover to close the gap with Hoyer and the third-week-of-the-preseason timeframe that coach Mike Pettine has established to name a starter.
The reality also is this: if the mostly impressive performance Hoyer displayed in two full games last year and what he has shown through the offseason and early in training camp are a true indication of what he will do this season, Browns fans should want him to be the starter indefinitely.
If, as many have suggested, Manziel should become the starter at least three or four games into the schedule, that means the Browns’ season will have gone sideways – as it too often has in the early stages of previous seasons.
The ideal scenario is for the team to get off to a strong start, with Hoyer doing his part to keep the offense on the rails, and for no change to be necessary for the starting quarterback job. Manziel will benefit greatly from watching and learning, and ultimately, his time will come to be the No. 1 guy.
If it happens sooner, it happens sooner. But if it doesn’t, and if there is any sort of debate over when he does start because Hoyer is performing well, that is a GREAT problem for the Browns.
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@douche-nozzle said:
Mental instability has no clock. If he is that spoiled and that much of a head case when he is "the show" can you imagine what he will be when he is carrying a clipboard?
Tick....tick....tick
Point was that it's old news... been hashed over here already... so you need fresher troll material.
He actually has a point but yeah fuck Texas.
The hometown boy point is legit, if it's anyone's sole basis for backing Hoyer. Personally I doubt it is. It's more like icing on the cake.
@everlastingxxx said:
When i watch video, it looks like Hoyer is quicker planting and throw than Manziel. Even on the WR quick throws he is fast.
Also, It seems like they are becoming friends or at least becoming friendly with each other. Which is good because Hoyer is a pro and can teach Johnny how to be one. Ill be honest, the more i hear Hoyer speak and play the more i like him. I just dont see him as having a big upside.
You may well be right about the upside... but until JM displays a basic proficiency at the pro level we won't get a chance to see it. Right now competency is the upside.
Agree that Hoyer's example, and friendly-ish approach, should both help JM. While the help may be somewhat limited by the competition, it's a far cry from Favre saying it was not his job to teach Rogers.
I'd be interested in your take as to why do you think Hoyer is quicker in the drill. Is it, as I wrote above, a matter of taking the drill seriously?
i lol'd at "fresher troll material". actually i just did again. funny.Point was that it's old news... been hashed over here already... so you need fresher troll material.
The hometown boy point is legit, if it's anyone's sole basis for backing Hoyer. Personally I doubt it is. It's more like icing on the cake.
You may well be right about the upside... but until JM displays a basic proficiency at the pro level we won't get a chance to see it. Right now competency is the upside.
Agree that Hoyer's example, and friendly-ish approach, should both help JM. While the help may be somewhat limited by the competition, it's a far cry from Favre saying it was not his job to teach Rogers.
I'd be interested in your take as to why do you think Hoyer is quicker in the drill. Is it, as I wrote above, a matter of taking the drill seriously?
re: JM's ball release...it was adequate for college ball but they are screwing w it like they did B Quinn's with hopes they can tweak it to perfection...i just hope they don't make him start thinkin so much he starts forgetting how to play football...cuz thats how it looks to me--is like hes thinking and processing it all a lot slower than BH.
Hoyer's progression thru his reads looks automatic and extremely dialed in. he's been doing this as his day job for YEARS. he's seen every single NFL play before, in multiple terminologies taboot.
the fact that such a steep learning curve only equates to hundredths of a second difference for Manziel in his very first minicamp of his rookie season is the stuff that keeps guys like Jerry Jones up all night.
i can't help but wonder if Jon Gruden opened pandoras box with those laceless balls. it looks a bit like JM is trying too hard to throw without the laces...like Hoyer is more adept and can find the laces as he goes thru his progressions and get it out faster than Johnny can go thru his progressions and get rid of it laceless. skill is there, technique seems ok...but brain is in the way.
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i get that ur anxious to see Manziel under center in the pros but take a fucking breath would you please? how much meth did you smoke today?? jfc.HoyerHater said:
Now will that translate to the NFL, we will see, but the chance is there. There is a chance we have the future biggest star in the NFL on our roster. Brett Favre-ish.
Now with Hoyer we have a guy who played well for roughly 1 and half games in his career. Now I don't think Hoyer sucks, but I'm not seeing any potential for star here. I do think he could be an 8-8 QB. I don't think he's very accurate, and I do think a torn ACL doesn't help. Neither does Norv Turner moving on.
I have a hard time thinking that this emphatic Hoyer dedication from some fans would be the same if it was Teddy Twatwater that we drafted. I feel like there would a bit more excitement about the rookie. Which makes me think you just don't like Manziel. Which is fine, but don't disguise it as some kind of football conversation where you go "Oh well Hoyer has proven that he is a great game manager". No. Hoyer is nearly as raw as Manziel on the field. Just say "I don't like Johnny Manziel because I think he's a douchebag" and leave it at that. That I understand. So be it, and it's honest and it's fair.
Pretending that the reasons you dislike Manziel or are rooting for Hoyer are based on what has taken place on the football field is absurd. I've seen far more impressive things from Manziel, albeit in college in the SEC, than I saw out of Hoyer against the Vikings and Bengals.
the question of whether Manziel's smaller frame and incredibly haphazard and often sloppy back-yard approach to the professional game can have success will be answered in due time.
here's the bottom line, JFF has never played against teams with rosters full of elite talented AND intelligent 4.5 40 running angry man-mountains along with former first rd picks, heisman candidates, and basically the best college players at their positions from the past ten years.
you obviously have no idea what you are assuming this kid can do because you don't understand what you are expecting.
the league is equally a game of inches and politics. its as much "luck" and "officiating" as it is anything. and an 8-8 QB is a 9-7 QB and anyone who can do that can win the SuperBall. you seem to have this fantasy of a bare chested manziel w gladiator skirt and ivy headband riding into the NFL on a chariot and going 20-0 and taking it all.
i think im starting to get it...this must be ur first player man-crush!! how cute!!
you see, what happens when u get completely enamored by one guy and that inevitable day comes when they begin to consistently underwhelm and eventually we must accept the uncomfortable reality that THESE GUYS ARE MORTALS.
the NFL is not some sloppy backyard draw it up in the dirt and go wing it out there type of sport. its an incredibly sophisticated game, played by men who are elite professionals, both on the field and off.
its always very important to read job descriptions thoroughly and carefully so one fully understands the job they are applying for. phrases like "multi-millionaire football player" and "face of billion dollar franchise" carry a little baggage with them worth both understanding...and deserving.
i get that ur anxious to see Manziel under center in the pros but take a fucking breath would you please? how much meth did you smoke today?? jfc.
the question of whether Manziel's smaller frame and incredibly haphazard and often sloppy back-yard approach to the professional game can have success will be answered in due time.
here's the bottom line, JFF has never played against teams with rosters full of elite talented AND intelligent 4.5 40 running angry man-mountains along with former first rd picks, heisman candidates, and basically the best college players at their positions from the past ten years.
you obviously have no idea what you are assuming this kid can do because you don't understand what you are expecting.
the league is equally a game of inches and politics. its as much "luck" and "officiating" as it is anything. and an 8-8 QB is a 9-7 QB and anyone who can do that can win the SuperBall. you seem to have this fantasy of a bare chested manziel w gladiator skirt and ivy headband riding into the nfl and going 20-0 and taking it all.
i think im starting to get it...this must be ur first crush!! how cute!!
you see, what happens when u get completely enamored by a guy and the inevitable day comes when they underwhelm and we must accept the uncomfortable reality that THESE GUYS ARE MORTAL.
the NFL is not some sloppy backyard draw it up in the dirt and go wing it out there type of sport. its a precise game, played by men who are professionals both on the field, and off.
its always very important to read job descriptions thoroughly and carefully so you fly understand the job you are applying for. phrases like "multi-millionaire football player" and "face of franchise" carry a little baggage with them worth both understanding, and deserving
Did you just say that any 8-8 QB is the same as a Super Bowl winning QB? Excuse me "SuperBall"? That is insane.
NFL is about talent above all. This idea that "Well he's a family man and works hard" is about 2% of the equation. The biggest part of the equation is talent.
Manziel has shown a rare talent in the most difficult defensive league in college football. Now is that the NFL? No, but there's no higher level to measure a college QB against than the SEC. Thats enough to get me excited about his prospects. Nobody expects him to come in and be perfect, but I do anticipate seeing what he can do in the NFL. Of course he's not ready right now, but he'll be ready at some point and when he is no Las Vegas selfie, or hat on backwards, or how many hours he studied the playbook is going to matter...only talent. Thats all there is to it.
What people that are not around professional sports always lack is understanding that it's about the talent. Professional sports is not fair, there are plenty of guys who are lazy and are amazing athletes and they beat out guys who work their butts off and study every day. Its about talent. People want to romanticize it, that it's these people who have worked so hard and crafted this art for so many years. Nope. It's talent. That's why guys like Jordan Cameron are millionaires. Talent. Played essentially no football, but still ends up being a pro bowler. Talent. Manziel has shown the potential for great talent. If it translates to the NFL, then he will be very very very good.
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and if hoyer were out making an ass of himself, i'm sure there would be just as much criticism of him as there is manziel. people expect more from professionals. i know it's within manziel's rights to do what he wants in the off-season but wouldn't we all (as browns fans) see him on the path as a well-grounded professional who is not in the paparrazzi flash bulbs every 30 seconds?
you tell me.
and if hoyer were out making an ass of himself, i'm sure there would be just as much criticism of him as there is manziel. people expect more from professionals. i know it's within manziel's rights to do what he wants in the off-season but wouldn't we all (as browns fans) see him on the path as a well-grounded professional who is not in the paparrazzi flash bulbs every 30 seconds?
you tell me.
actually if Hoyer were the one out and about every weekend walking around town loud and doing sports interviews w a silver plated toot straw tucked behind his ear AND tearing it up at practice hot shottin it up like a will ferrell character BUT still committed and a first in/last out "Cap" leader-type i'd probably follow him to hell and have him as my avatar by now. just sayin.
is that a double standard?
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i get that ur anxious to see Manziel under center in the pros but take a fucking breath would you please? how much meth did you smoke today?? jfc.HoyerHater said:
Now will that translate to the NFL, we will see, but the chance is there. There is a chance we have the future biggest star in the NFL on our roster. Brett Favre-ish.
Now with Hoyer we have a guy who played well for roughly 1 and half games in his career. Now I don't think Hoyer sucks, but I'm not seeing any potential for star here. I do think he could be an 8-8 QB. I don't think he's very accurate, and I do think a torn ACL doesn't help. Neither does Norv Turner moving on.
I have a hard time thinking that this emphatic Hoyer dedication from some fans would be the same if it was Teddy Twatwater that we drafted. I feel like there would a bit more excitement about the rookie. Which makes me think you just don't like Manziel. Which is fine, but don't disguise it as some kind of football conversation where you go "Oh well Hoyer has proven that he is a great game manager". No. Hoyer is nearly as raw as Manziel on the field. Just say "I don't like Johnny Manziel because I think he's a douchebag" and leave it at that. That I understand. So be it, and it's honest and it's fair.
Pretending that the reasons you dislike Manziel or are rooting for Hoyer are based on what has taken place on the football field is absurd. I've seen far more impressive things from Manziel, albeit in college in the SEC, than I saw out of Hoyer against the Vikings and Bengals.
the question of whether Manziel's smaller frame and incredibly haphazard and often sloppy back-yard approach to the professional game can have success will be answered in due time.
here's the bottom line, JFF has never played against teams with rosters full of elite talented AND intelligent 4.5 40 running angry man-mountains along with former first rd picks, heisman candidates, and basically the best college players at their positions from the past ten years.
you obviously have no idea what you are assuming this kid can do because you don't understand what you are expecting.
the league is equally a game of inches and politics. its as much "luck" and "officiating" as it is anything. and an 8-8 QB is a 9-7 QB and anyone who can do that can win the SuperBall. you seem to have this fantasy of a bare chested manziel w gladiator skirt and ivy headband riding into the NFL on a chariot and going 20-0 and taking it all.
i think im starting to get it...this must be ur first player man-crush!! how cute!!
you see, what happens when u get completely enamored by one guy and that inevitable day comes when they begin to consistently underwhelm and eventually we must accept the uncomfortable reality that THESE GUYS ARE MORTALS.
the NFL is not some sloppy backyard draw it up in the dirt and go wing it out there type of sport. its an incredibly sophisticated game, played by men who are elite professionals, both on the field and off.
its always very important to read job descriptions thoroughly and carefully so one fully understands the job they are applying for. phrases like "multi-millionaire football player" and "face of billion dollar franchise" carry a little baggage with them worth both understanding...and deserving.
the NFL is not some sloppy backyard draw it up in the dirt and go wing it out there type of sport. its a precise game, played by men who are professionals both on the field, and off.
1. Look up Russell Wilson's highlights. Made something out of nothing which got them into the big game. Look how many big plays he made that are "backyard" football and Big Ben has done the same.
2. Aaron Hernandez, Mike Vick, Big Ben, Ray Lewis, Lawrence Taylor, Donte Stallworth, Josh Gordon, Jim Brown, and many others all say what up
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i get that ur anxious to see Manziel under center in the pros but take a fucking breath would you please? how much meth did you smoke today?? jfc.
the question of whether Manziel's smaller frame and incredibly haphazard and often sloppy back-yard approach to the professional game can have success will be answered in due time.
here's the bottom line, JFF has never played against teams with rosters full of elite talented AND intelligent 4.5 40 running angry man-mountains along with former first rd picks, heisman candidates, and basically the best college players at their positions from the past ten years.
you obviously have no idea what you are assuming this kid can do because you don't understand what you are expecting.
the league is equally a game of inches and politics. its as much "luck" and "officiating" as it is anything. and an 8-8 QB is a 9-7 QB and anyone who can do that can win the SuperBall. you seem to have this fantasy of a bare chested manziel w gladiator skirt and ivy headband riding into the nfl and going 20-0 and taking it all.
i think im starting to get it...this must be ur first crush!! how cute!!
you see, what happens when u get completely enamored by a guy and the inevitable day comes when they underwhelm and we must accept the uncomfortable reality that THESE GUYS ARE MORTAL.
the NFL is not some sloppy backyard draw it up in the dirt and go wing it out there type of sport. its a precise game, played by men who are professionals both on the field, and off.
its always very important to read job descriptions thoroughly and carefully so you fly understand the job you are applying for. phrases like "multi-millionaire football player" and "face of franchise" carry a little baggage with them worth both understanding, and deserving
Did you just say that any 8-8 QB is the same as a Super Bowl winning QB? Excuse me "SuperBall"? That is insane.
NFL is about talent above all. This idea that "Well he's a family man and works hard" is about 2% of the equation. The biggest part of the equation is talent.
Manziel has shown a rare talent in the most difficult defensive league in college football. Now is that the NFL? No, but there's no higher level to measure a college QB against than the SEC. Thats enough to get me excited about his prospects. Nobody expects him to come in and be perfect, but I do anticipate seeing what he can do in the NFL. Of course he's not ready right now, but he'll be ready at some point and when he is no Las Vegas selfie, or hat on backwards, or how many hours he studied the playbook is going to matter...only talent. Thats all there is to it.
What people that are not around professional sports always lack is understanding that it's about the talent. Professional sports is not fair, there are plenty of guys who are lazy and are amazing athletes and they beat out guys who work their butts off and study every day. Its about talent. People want to romanticize it, that it's these people who have worked so hard and crafted this art for so many years. Nope. It's talent. That's why guys like Jordan Cameron are millionaires. Talent. Played essentially no football, but still ends up being a pro bowler. Talent. Manziel has shown the potential for great talent. If it translates to the NFL, then he will be very very very good.
HoyerHater said:
Manziel has shown the potential for great talent. If it translates to the NFL, then he will be very very very good.
do you genuinely believe Manziel can take the Browns to the Superball?
point out some reasons you believe it will translate.
cuz if it can, an 8-8 team is simply a bad call or a squeaker overtime win away from a 9-7 record...happens all the time. (6-10 talent squeaking to 8-8 record happens sometimes too **waves at the puke**)
and a player with Manziel intangibles...he's basically the prototypical QB that could improvise a 9-7 record into a passionate SB quest.
-
i get that ur anxious to see Manziel under center in the pros but take a fucking breath would you please? how much meth did you smoke today?? jfc.
the question of whether Manziel's smaller frame and incredibly haphazard and often sloppy back-yard approach to the professional game can have success will be answered in due time.
here's the bottom line, JFF has never played against teams with rosters full of elite talented AND intelligent 4.5 40 running angry man-mountains along with former first rd picks, heisman candidates, and basically the best college players at their positions from the past ten years.
you obviously have no idea what you are assuming this kid can do because you don't understand what you are expecting.
the league is equally a game of inches and politics. its as much "luck" and "officiating" as it is anything. and an 8-8 QB is a 9-7 QB and anyone who can do that can win the SuperBall. you seem to have this fantasy of a bare chested manziel w gladiator skirt and ivy headband riding into the nfl and going 20-0 and taking it all.
i think im starting to get it...this must be ur first crush!! how cute!!
you see, what happens when u get completely enamored by a guy and the inevitable day comes when they underwhelm and we must accept the uncomfortable reality that THESE GUYS ARE MORTAL.
the NFL is not some sloppy backyard draw it up in the dirt and go wing it out there type of sport. its a precise game, played by men who are professionals both on the field, and off.
its always very important to read job descriptions thoroughly and carefully so you fly understand the job you are applying for. phrases like "multi-millionaire football player" and "face of franchise" carry a little baggage with them worth both understanding, and deserving
Did you just say that any 8-8 QB is the same as a Super Bowl winning QB? Excuse me "SuperBall"? That is insane.
NFL is about talent above all. This idea that "Well he's a family man and works hard" is about 2% of the equation. The biggest part of the equation is talent.
Manziel has shown a rare talent in the most difficult defensive league in college football. Now is that the NFL? No, but there's no higher level to measure a college QB against than the SEC. Thats enough to get me excited about his prospects. Nobody expects him to come in and be perfect, but I do anticipate seeing what he can do in the NFL. Of course he's not ready right now, but he'll be ready at some point and when he is no Las Vegas selfie, or hat on backwards, or how many hours he studied the playbook is going to matter...only talent. Thats all there is to it.
What people that are not around professional sports always lack is understanding that it's about the talent. Professional sports is not fair, there are plenty of guys who are lazy and are amazing athletes and they beat out guys who work their butts off and study every day. Its about talent. People want to romanticize it, that it's these people who have worked so hard and crafted this art for so many years. Nope. It's talent. That's why guys like Jordan Cameron are millionaires. Talent. Played essentially no football, but still ends up being a pro bowler. Talent. Manziel has shown the potential for great talent. If it translates to the NFL, then he will be very very very good.
Did you just say that any 8-8 QB is the same as a Super Bowl winning QB? Excuse me "SuperBall"? That is insane.
NFL is about talent above all. This idea that "Well he's a family man and works hard" is about 2% of the equation. The biggest part of the equation is talent.
Manziel has shown a rare talent in the most difficult defensive league in college football. Now is that the NFL? No, but there's no higher level to measure a college QB against than the SEC. Thats enough to get me excited about his prospects. Nobody expects him to come in and be perfect, but I do anticipate seeing what he can do in the NFL. Of course he's not ready right now, but he'll be ready at some point and when he is no Las Vegas selfie, or hat on backwards, or how many hours he studied the playbook is going to matter...only talent. Thats all there is to it.
What people that are not around professional sports always lack is understanding that it's about the talent. Professional sports is not fair, there are plenty of guys who are lazy and are amazing athletes and they beat out guys who work their butts off and study every day. Its about talent. People want to romanticize it, that it's these people who have worked so hard and crafted this art for so many years. Nope. It's talent. That's why guys like Jordan Cameron are millionaires. Talent. Played essentially no football, but still ends up being a pro bowler. Talent. Manziel has shown the potential for great talent. If it translates to the NFL, then he will be very very very good.
so you made your point a thousand times over.
you got anything else to say?
it's a fucking broken record and you've been here what a day and a half?
fuckin yap yap yap and it's the same shit shit shit.
get a new tune pal.
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the NFL is not some sloppy backyard draw it up in the dirt and go wing it out there type of sport. its a precise game, played by men who are professionals both on the field, and off.
1. Look up Russell Wilson's highlights. Made something out of nothing which got them into the big game. Look how many big plays he made that are "backyard" football and Big Ben has done the same.
2. Aaron Hernandez, Mike Vick, Big Ben, Ray Lewis, Lawrence Taylor, Donte Stallworth, Josh Gordon, Jim Brown, and many others all say what up
who?? my internet is broke.1. Look up Russell Wilson's highlights. Made something out of nothing which got them into the big game. Look how many big plays he made that are "backyard" football and Big Ben has done the same.
2. Aaron Hernandez, Mike Vick, Big Ben, Ray Lewis, Lawrence Taylor, Donte Stallworth, Josh Gordon, Jim Brown, and many others all say what up
did you say Josh Cribbs?
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HoyerHater said:
Manziel has shown the potential for great talent. If it translates to the NFL, then he will be very very very good.
do you genuinely believe Manziel can take the Browns to the Superball?
point out some reasons you believe it will translate.
cuz if it can, an 8-8 team is simply a bad call or a squeaker overtime win away from a 9-7 record...happens all the time. (6-10 talent squeaking to 8-8 record happens sometimes too **waves at the puke**)
and a player with Manziel intangibles...he's basically the prototypical QB that could improvise a 9-7 record into a passionate SB quest.
do you genuinely believe Manziel can take the Browns to the Superball?
point out some reasons you believe it will translate.
cuz if it can, an 8-8 team is simply a bad call or a squeaker overtime win away from a 9-7 record...happens all the time. (7-9 squeaking go 8-8 happens too **waves at the puke**
and a player with Manziel intangibles...he's basically the prototypical QB that could improvise a 9-7 record into a passionate SB quest.
The chances of the Browns making the Super Bowl in the next 6 years are greater with Johnny Manziel than with Brian Hoyer.
That I believe, and I don't believe it's really close.
I have yet to see what anyone else sees in Hoyer. Rewatch that Minnesota game, tell me that's a NFL starting QB. There is a reason why Arizona cut the guy. There's a reason why Hoyer was 3rd on the depth chart out of camp last year, BEHIND CAMPBELL and not even close to Weeden. Who was awful.
There's a reason the Browns drafted a QB in the first round this year. Hoyer isn't the guy. Great guy. Good enough to be in the league. Good mentor. Not a viable NFL starting QB. He is a backup, who is now just a placeholder until Manziel is ready.
So yes, if you told me that a QB on the roster this year would lead the Browns the Super Bowl in the future, I'd bet all my money that its Johnny Manziel.
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