Hoyer will start !
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Unlike mik, I'll ignore the last part...
Square what you are saying NOW, with what you said before...
Namely... square "JM will be the starter WHEN HES READY"
with "Ex player after Ex player will tell you, you learn nothing sitting on the sidelines. Go out, make a ton of mistakes, and learn. By year 2 you're a vet."
and
"If youre good then getting the mistakes out of the way is the best thing for you. You learn by playing not watching."
Seriously, resolve those stances for me because otherwise I'm left thinking you are saying "JM will never start, because he cannot get ready, if he does not start."
It's called Boolean Algebra...
You don't understand differences in the argument of why Manziel shouldn't sit like Aaron Rodgers and why he will play when he is ready? Really?
Its funny to me that people are going on and on and on about "Manziel Fanboys" which I'm not seeing around here. I see people who understand Manziel is the future QB and thus appropriately follow him, but I don't see any dick sucking going on like the dick sucking for Hoyer.
Thats right. Its Hoyer Fanboys. Who so desperately want Hoyer to be the guy and they are so threatened by Manziel that they just cant take it.
You think you're in some kind of Disney movie where the hometown down and out kid comes home and saves the team. YAY!!! You can't handle the reality.
And thats all I care about is the reality. If it was Teddy B and you people were talking about Hoyer like this, I'd have the same things to say. It has nothing to do with Manziel and it has EVERYTHING to do with the delusional fans who think Hoyer is the next Kurt Warner (Which has been said MANY times).
While you're all complaining about how Manziel hasn't done anything to justify the hype, take a look at Hoyer. Talk about someone who hasn't justified the hype. There is no amount of Manziel love going on around that is even a fraction of the Brian Hoyer fantasy land that has developed. Cut three times, career backup, who has started 4 games in his career and only finished 3 of them, with accuracy issues coming off a torn ACL.....and you have people saying this situation is the Brett Favre/Aaron Rodgers situation all over.
Get you heads out of your asses.
You don't understand differences in the argument of why Manziel shouldn't sit like Aaron Rodgers and why he will play when he is ready? Really?
I do... I was seeing if you did. Now it is clear that you do not, so you are only left with "making shit up" about me, thus setting you on the path to Mikey-land...
Have a nice trip!
OK, you said it a lot better than I did, but you know what I meant...
No offense meant... just answering a question you posed from the opposite direction.
Rhetorical is apparently harder to suss out than sarcasm...
That's not a fact but quite an inaccurate generalization.
Sure, the plan was to sit some of these guys but with the way Bortles, Manziel, and Bridgewater have played in Camp, I'm sure they could all 3 possibly start.
My original statement was not meant to be taken as a fact... just my opinion based upon where QBs have been taken the past two drafts. However, as such, it is not a "generalization", but rather a specific observation based on the past two seasons. What follows is my generalized opinion which I believe the facts bear out.
QBs who are drafted to be season one, game one starters tend to go high... top ten, if not top five. Occasionally a lower choice surprises a team and starts right away (Russell Wilson is the latest example), but they are not common.
just curious, did any of you guys root for the Cowboys or the Dolphins when Bernie was shown the door?
be honest. Did anyone go so far as to have a Cowboys or Dolphins jersey in his home?
No and no... I did however root for Bernie... which was really hard when he was a Cowboy.
Have I mentioned lately that I hate the Cowboys?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Then say what you mean. You said you judged Hoyer better than Johnny based on NFL experience. If that's all you're judging on, then we can conclude two things: 1) you're dumb as fuck; and 2) Hoyer is going to be superior to any prospect coming out in the NFL draft, no matter how good they are, because they have no NFL experience with which to compare.
You said you judge Hoyer on real experience in real game when comparing him to Johnny, but then talk out of your ass and say you judge Luck based on his experience at Stanford playing in the Pac12. If you don't think Johnny is better, then say it. Lay your evaluation nuts out there. Don't hide behind this no NFL experience bullshit.
if Manziel were Luck he woulda been taken #1 overall weeks before the draft. #1 overall vs #22 overall?? apples and...coffee?
if Hoyer were on the Colts roster Luck most likely woulda had to outplay him for the start there too...and probably would have. in that situation with a guy like Luck who's 6'5", huge, super athletic and talented and w a football IQ high as Josh Gordon's entourage...if it's even close in preseason you obviously go with Luck.
and i have no problem saying it. i don't think rookie Johnny Manziel is as good as rookie Andrew Luck...like that's even a reach!
if Manziel were Luck he woulda been taken #1 overall weeks before the draft. #1 overall vs #22 overall?? apples and...coffee?
if Hoyer were on the Colts roster Luck most likely woulda had to outplay him for the start there too...and probably would have. in that situation with a guy like Luck who's 6"5, huge, super athletic and talented and w a football IQ high as Josh Gordon's entourage...if it's even close in preseason you obviously go with Luck.
and i have no problem saying it. i don't think rookie Johnny Manziel is as good as rookie Andrew Luck...like that's even a reach!
"apples and... coffee"... Loved it!
Unfair! There's no comparison between Luck's skill set and any rookie QB is a while. Even against "The Mighty Hoyer" the competition would have been over by the end of OTAs.
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You don't understand differences in the argument of why Manziel shouldn't sit like Aaron Rodgers and why he will play when he is ready? Really?
I do... I was seeing if you did. Now it is clear that you do not, so you are only left with "making shit up" about me, thus setting you on the path to Mikey-land...
Have a nice trip!
OK, you said it a lot better than I did, but you know what I meant...
No offense meant... just answering a question you posed from the opposite direction.
Rhetorical is apparently harder to suss out than sarcasm...
That's not a fact but quite an inaccurate generalization.
Sure, the plan was to sit some of these guys but with the way Bortles, Manziel, and Bridgewater have played in Camp, I'm sure they could all 3 possibly start.
My original statement was not meant to be taken as a fact... just my opinion based upon where QBs have been taken the past two drafts. However, as such, it is not a "generalization", but rather a specific observation based on the past two seasons. What follows is my generalized opinion which I believe the facts bear out.
QBs who are drafted to be season one, game one starters tend to go high... top ten, if not top five. Occasionally a lower choice surprises a team and starts right away (Russell Wilson is the latest example), but they are not common.
just curious, did any of you guys root for the Cowboys or the Dolphins when Bernie was shown the door?
be honest. Did anyone go so far as to have a Cowboys or Dolphins jersey in his home?
No and no... I did however root for Bernie... which was really hard when he was a Cowboy.
Have I mentioned lately that I hate the Cowboys?
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.QBs who are drafted to be season one, game one starters tend to go high... top ten, if not top five. Occasionally a lower choice surprises a team and starts right away (Russell Wilson is the latest example), but they are not common.
Was Manziel drafted to be the starting QB for the Browns? Undeniably so. You don't draft a player, much less a QB, in the first round unless you absolutely expect him to start.
Where the sliding scale comes in is WHEN you draft said quarterback in the first round.
Teams picking in the second half of the draft rarely are in dire need of a franchise QB. I say rarely because there are circumstances that may dictate a QB-less team picking later in the first round (good trades the day of, bad trades from prior GM's, NFL sanctions...).
However, generally speaking, if you're picking in the bottom 15, you probably have a QB who you think you can win with. Teams rarely, in normal circumstances, finish better than .500 and say "I NEED A QB AND I NEED IT NOW".
As Stockton likes to reference, look at the Packers. They had a HOF QB with two years left on his contract, but knew they needed an heir apparent, so they took an extremely talented college QB who's stock slid. They didn't need him to start immediately.
The Seahawks shelled out big bucks for a guy (who, coincidentally, backed up the QB in my previous example) and thought him to be their franchise QB. They took a chance on a guy with all the intangibles yet was considered undersized. He turned out to be a pleasant surprise.
When you start digging for direly needed day one starters in the bargain basement pile, like the Browns did with Quinn, you run into problems.
Manziel was taken to start. But, if he was truly thought of as a "can't-miss, day one starter" prospect akin to Andrew Luck by our staff, they'd have traded up to get him.
A good rule of thumb - if you need a QB, you take the highest rated guy on your board as soon as possible. If the highest rated guy on your board projects as a third round talent in a QB rich draft, you either have Belichick as your coach or (more likely) your scouting staff needs to be fired.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Because you keep posting like JM should be given the job?
That said, at least you engaged on a topic this time...
I post like Manziel is going to have the job. Which you should clearly see unless you have a very small football IQ. He was drafted to be the starter, and he will be the starter the minute the coaches determine he's ready (which if you believe the reports this week, is getting closer and closer). If you want you can consider that as him "earning" it, I mean he does have to learn a certain amount before they'll let him start.
You seem to be under the very wrong idea that the coaches are going "Well we have Manziel AND Hoyer, and let's let them battle it out to see who our QB of the future is". Nope. It's already been decided, the minute the Browns picked Manziel at 22. NOW if you're saying that doesn't mean he'll be great, then you're right. Who knows exactly how good Manziel will be, but the idea that he's somehow not going to be the Browns starter at some point, and most likely some point very soon, is....wrong....so very, very wrong.
I post like Manziel is going to have the job. Which you should clearly see unless you have a very small football IQ. He was drafted to be the starter, and he will be the starter the minute the coaches determine he's ready (which if you believe the reports this week, is getting closer and closer). If you want you can consider that as him "earning" it, I mean he does have to learn a certain amount before they'll let him start.
and Hoyer walks, talks, and acts like he has the job right now, because right now he does. your posting shows you are putting one player ahead of the entire team...which to me says you are not a fan of the team. we are all excited like kids who unwrapped new shiny toys but have yet to play...but if you don't see how ur attitude alienates players within a franchise your FB IQ as pretty fucking abysmal.
and lol @ ur fave goto tagline
"football IQ"...it's been a while since a newb tossed that around so much here.
and "selling presumptively" doesn't work here pal. if folks with "big football IQ's" in the organization and fanbase did this Cleveland wouldn't have a team in 5 years. players like Skrine, Greco, Kruger and Sheard to name a few...it wouldn't be locker room cancer, it would be epidemic.
last year the coaches gave Weeden the figurative "nod" and it was "his job to lose" based on being a return-starter who won a few games and seemed to have potential but still had a limited body of work to fully evaulate him. not sure if they dangled "qb competition" in front of Jason Campbell or what but he seemed noticeably disgruntled and his attitude affected at times...then next thing you know Hoyer leapfroggs him on the roster and is starting games. sd the reasoning was "we feel Hoyer gives us a better chance to win this week" coach-speak yada yada.
Hoyer is not in Weeden's position...it is in fact a "true competition". Hoyer understands that. JFF understands that. Conner and Thig understand that. with ur embarrassing FB IQ even you should be capable of understanding that. so there's no need to get butt hurt like Campbell was or troll Browns fans taking the appropriate "wait-and-see" approach.
just sit back and let the players prove it on the field. the starter will shake out soon enough>>within the next 8 days in fact. and if a franchise QB is on the roster...we will most likely know by this year. what's not to like about that?!?!?
after 8 months of football drought filled with staff firings, hirings, player additions and subtractions, drafting, new stadium additions, multiple legal issues, some injuries and also completed rehabs...this season promises to be one of the most anticipated i can ever remember.
You seem to be under the very wrong idea that the coaches are going "Well we have Manziel AND Hoyer, and let's let them battle it out to see who our QB of the future is". Nope. It's already been decided, the minute the Browns picked Manziel at 22. NOW if you're saying that doesn't mean he'll be great, then you're right. Who knows exactly how good Manziel will be, but the idea that he's somehow not going to be the Browns starter at some point, and most likely some point very soon, is....wrong....so very, very wrong.
after this post i see there is clearly no hope for you. you obviously never gave us the courtesy to have invested in us and lurked. you repeat your bias ands opinions ad nauseum offering nothing of value and frankly u arent worth my time or energy. after this post i will no longer see ur trolling cuz u goin on "ignore". adios fuckface!
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Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.QBs who are drafted to be season one, game one starters tend to go high... top ten, if not top five. Occasionally a lower choice surprises a team and starts right away (Russell Wilson is the latest example), but they are not common.
Was Manziel drafted to be the starting QB for the Browns? Undeniably so. You don't draft a player, much less a QB, in the first round unless you absolutely expect him to start.
Where the sliding scale comes in is WHEN you draft said quarterback in the first round.
Teams picking in the second half of the draft rarely are in dire need of a franchise QB. I say rarely because there are circumstances that may dictate a QB-less team picking later in the first round (good trades the day of, bad trades from prior GM's, NFL sanctions...).
However, generally speaking, if you're picking in the bottom 15, you probably have a QB who you think you can win with. Teams rarely, in normal circumstances, finish better than .500 and say "I NEED A QB AND I NEED IT NOW".
As Stockton likes to reference, look at the Packers. They had a HOF QB with two years left on his contract, but knew they needed an heir apparent, so they took an extremely talented college QB who's stock slid. They didn't need him to start immediately.
The Seahawks shelled out big bucks for a guy (who, coincidentally, backed up the QB in my previous example) and thought him to be their franchise QB. They took a chance on a guy with all the intangibles yet was considered undersized. He turned out to be a pleasant surprise.
When you start digging for direly needed day one starters in the bargain basement pile, like the Browns did with Quinn, you run into problems.
Manziel was taken to start. But, if he was truly thought of as a "can't-miss, day one starter" prospect akin to Andrew Luck by our staff, they'd have traded up to get him.
A good rule of thumb - if you need a QB, you take the highest rated guy on your board as soon as possible. If the highest rated guy on your board projects as a third round talent in a QB rich draft, you either have Belichick as your coach or (more likely) your scouting staff needs to be fired.
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.
...but then you went ahead and said it better anyway...
... or at least took it deeper...I'm trying to think of the last QB drafted outside of the top ten that was clearly drafted to be the immediate starter. My pride won't let it be Wheezy... although it became pretty clear that QB competition was a sham. I believe Marino qualifies since the Fins went 7-2 despite David Woodley in '82.
Looks like most recent example was the Ravens taking Flacco at #18 overall in 2008.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I like the blue.
Hoyer isn't going to be the starter long term. It's not a competition. Its a "Hoyer can start until we think Manziel is ready". Manziel isn't even competing against Hoyer he's competing against what the coaches expectations are. Once he meets those, Hoyer is out. Doesn't mean I think Manziel is going to be awesome, because I don't know. He could suck. However the idea that he's somehow competing to be the long term QB, and not being groomed to be the long term QB is wrong.
If you don't realize this, then you have low football IQ. There's no gray area here, that's the black and white of it. -
I post like Manziel is going to have the job. Which you should clearly see unless you have a very small football IQ. He was drafted to be the starter, and he will be the starter the minute the coaches determine he's ready (which if you believe the reports this week, is getting closer and closer). If you want you can consider that as him "earning" it, I mean he does have to learn a certain amount before they'll let him start.
and Hoyer walks, talks, and acts like he has the job right now, because right now he does. your posting shows you are putting one player ahead of the entire team...which to me says you are not a fan of the team. we are all excited like kids who unwrapped new shiny toys but have yet to play...but if you don't see how ur attitude alienates players within a franchise your FB IQ as pretty fucking abysmal.
and lol @ ur fave goto tagline
"football IQ"...it's been a while since a newb tossed that around so much here.
and "selling presumptively" doesn't work here pal. if folks with "big football IQ's" in the organization and fanbase did this Cleveland wouldn't have a team in 5 years. players like Skrine, Greco, Kruger and Sheard to name a few...it wouldn't be locker room cancer, it would be epidemic.
last year the coaches gave Weeden the figurative "nod" and it was "his job to lose" based on being a return-starter who won a few games and seemed to have potential but still had a limited body of work to fully evaulate him. not sure if they dangled "qb competition" in front of Jason Campbell or what but he seemed noticeably disgruntled and his attitude affected at times...then next thing you know Hoyer leapfroggs him on the roster and is starting games. sd the reasoning was "we feel Hoyer gives us a better chance to win this week" coach-speak yada yada.
Hoyer is not in Weeden's position...it is in fact a "true competition". Hoyer understands that. JFF understands that. Conner and Thig understand that. with ur embarrassing FB IQ even you should be capable of understanding that. so there's no need to get butt hurt like Campbell was or troll Browns fans taking the appropriate "wait-and-see" approach.
just sit back and let the players prove it on the field. the starter will shake out soon enough>>within the next 8 days in fact. and if a franchise QB is on the roster...we will most likely know by this year. what's not to like about that?!?!?
after 8 months of football drought filled with staff firings, hirings, player additions and subtractions, drafting, new stadium additions, multiple legal issues, some injuries and also completed rehabs...this season promises to be one of the most anticipated i can ever remember.
You seem to be under the very wrong idea that the coaches are going "Well we have Manziel AND Hoyer, and let's let them battle it out to see who our QB of the future is". Nope. It's already been decided, the minute the Browns picked Manziel at 22. NOW if you're saying that doesn't mean he'll be great, then you're right. Who knows exactly how good Manziel will be, but the idea that he's somehow not going to be the Browns starter at some point, and most likely some point very soon, is....wrong....so very, very wrong.
after this post i see there is clearly no hope for you. you obviously never gave us the courtesy to have invested in us and lurked. you repeat your bias ands opinions ad nauseum offering nothing of value and frankly u arent worth my time or energy. after this post i will no longer see ur trolling cuz u goin on "ignore". adios fuckface!
What do Picasso and Frisky have in common?
and Hoyer walks, talks, and acts like he has the job right now, because right now he does.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
What do Picasso and Frisky have in common?
and Hoyer walks, talks, and acts like he has the job right now, because right now he does.
What do Picasso and Frisky have in common?
Picasso have unrealistic ideas about the abilities of Brian Hoyer as well?
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Picasso have unrealistic ideas about the abilities of Brian Hoyer as well?
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I like the blue.
Hoyer isn't going to be the starter long term. It's not a competition. Its a "Hoyer can start until we think Manziel is ready". Manziel isn't even competing against Hoyer he's competing against what the coaches expectations are. Once he meets those, Hoyer is out. Doesn't mean I think Manziel is going to be awesome, because I don't know. He could suck. However the idea that he's somehow competing to be the long term QB, and not being groomed to be the long term QB is wrong.
If you don't realize this, then you have low football IQ. There's no gray area here, that's the black and white of it.If you don't realize this, then you have low football IQ.
Mikey Lives!
Zombo
--glad we still have someone to parry with Tour
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You have no idea as well as anyone else on here how soon manziel is going to be the qb.
Quit acting like everything you say is gospel and all others are stupid. You'll have a tough time around here.
I doubt you watched a single game Hoyer played in last season to even give the man judgement. You're just a Manziel groupie and will follow where ever he goes.
I don't know how soon Manziel will be the starter, you're right. I do know he WILL be the starter at some point. That can not be denied. If you think I'm wrong, by all means tell me so.
And I did watch Hoyer last year. From his 3 INT game against Minny to his very good game where they didn't ask him to do much against the Bengals, to the brief appearance in the Buffalo game where he attempted the most nonathletic slide in NFL history. I watched every second.
Those who think Brian Hoyer is a good, quality, NFL QB....you are the ones I question if you actually watched those games.
You can talk about "Manziel Fanboys" all you want around here, but none of this has anything to do with Manziel. Its the "Hoyer Fanboys" who have somehow reinvented a career backup into a future HOF off of two complete games, neither of which did he look much better than say a Mark Sanchez.
You seem to ignore the fact that the Browns themselves decided they love Hoyer so much, that they took a QB in the 1st round. Doesn't matter it was Manziel, it would've been Teddy B otherwise, but either way they went into the draft saying "We need a QB, and badly" and went out and got one. That's how good the Browns think Brian Hoyer is.
You can try to pretend that you're fighting these "Manziel Trolls" all you want, but some people are smart enough to realize that the future QB is Manziel, so might as well get on board now and hope he's good. Hoyer is a bookmark until the Manziel era begins. Thats not being a fanboy, thats understanding NFL football.
I don't know how soon Manziel will be the starter, you're right. I do know he WILL be the starter at some point. That can not be denied. If you think I'm wrong, by all means tell me so.
And I did watch Hoyer last year. From his 3 INT game against Minny to his very good game where they didn't ask him to do much against the Bengals, to the brief appearance in the Buffalo game where he attempted the most nonathletic slide in NFL history. I watched every second.
Those who think Brian Hoyer is a good, quality, NFL QB....you are the ones I question if you actually watched those games.
You can talk about "Manziel Fanboys" all you want around here, but none of this has anything to do with Manziel. Its the "Hoyer Fanboys" who have somehow reinvented a career backup into a future HOF off of two complete games, neither of which did he look much better than say a Mark Sanchez.
You seem to ignore the fact that the Browns themselves decided they love Hoyer so much, that they took a QB in the 1st round. Doesn't matter it was Manziel, it would've been Teddy B otherwise, but either way they went into the draft saying "We need a QB, and badly" and went out and got one. That's how good the Browns think Brian Hoyer is.
You can try to pretend that you're fighting these "Manziel Trolls" all you want, but some people are smart enough to realize that the future QB is Manziel, so might as well get on board now and hope he's good. Hoyer is a bookmark until the Manziel era begins. Thats not being a fanboy, thats understanding NFL football.
as long as we're speaking hypotheticals and putting words in other's mouths, my version has this fantasy closer to something like this:
"We have a promising and competent looking vet QB in his prime...but he's just coming back from an injury. With a billion dollar organization, that is plain and simply not enough to go into a season with. At draft time, when we saw a guy who was rated high by many accounts slide to #22, at that value we felt it was worth taking a shot on him to help fill our needs. He's a high risk/high reward boom or bust kid with insane intangibles...but has a wreckless--yet very effective vs college players--playing style.
Between the two, we feel we're going into this season with each of them off-setting the risks of the other. But you never know, we very well may draft a QB again next year...and to that end, it's fortunate that we have some extra ammo in the form of the 1st rd pick we got from the Bills."
>> that same pick they felt was more valuable and important to acquire "just in case" than draft ANY of the QB's at the top of the draft.
what you suggest by tossing the evaluating process and going "all-in" on Manziel is akin to gambling. the gambler approach can help you lose your franchise.
grinders take the long view and hedge their bets...and put themselves in advantageous positions to take down the gamblers at the right moment. taking this grifter attitude to the NFL has won superbowls.
they did not draft JFF to be the starter. they drafted Manziel for the exact same reason they acquired Thigpen, Young, Shaw, same reason previous FO acquired Hoyer...A CHANCE TO FIND THE CLEVELAND BROWNS FRANCHISE QB OF THE FUTURE.
starting is temporary, and a band-aid won't get CLE a ring. Franchise QB or bust!
fwiw Shaw had the fastest time of all QB's at the combine (4.62) and had the best touchdown to interception ratio in the NCAA. same as ur Johnny's "Lumbergh" i'd bet somewhere out there Connor Shaw has a version of his own Lumbergh as well. we regulars are not Lumbergh's for Hoyer. we are Browns fans, plain and simple. even the day Belicheat benched Bernie, never stopped being a Browns fan for a second my entire life. you will never understand this mentality. you are a grifter troll attempting to be guile using a poor Browns guise--a Manziel fan in fake Browns clothing. and had Manziel been drafted by another of the 31 other teams, you would be posing as a fan of theirs trolling their boards as i type this.
if you wanna crown em prematurely by all means have at it fanboy, crown em. if Manziel ever happens to become that guy ur trophy will still say nothing more than "you happened to guess right"
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I like the blue.
Hoyer isn't going to be the starter long term. It's not a competition. Its a "Hoyer can start until we think Manziel is ready". Manziel isn't even competing against Hoyer he's competing against what the coaches expectations are. Once he meets those, Hoyer is out. Doesn't mean I think Manziel is going to be awesome, because I don't know. He could suck. However the idea that he's somehow competing to be the long term QB, and not being groomed to be the long term QB is wrong.
If you don't realize this, then you have low football IQ. There's no gray area here, that's the black and white of it.I like the blue.
Hoyer isn't going to be the starter long term. It's not a competition. Its a "Hoyer can start until we think Manziel is ready". Manziel isn't even competing against Hoyer he's competing against what the coaches expectations are. Once he meets those, Hoyer is out. Doesn't mean I think Manziel is going to be awesome, because I don't know. He could suck. However the idea that he's somehow competing to be the long term QB, and not being groomed to be the long term QB is wrong.
If you don't realize this, then you have low football IQ. There's no gray area here, that's the black and white of it.
that certainly is the logical view.. I assume if the front office had as much faith in Brian Hoyer as the ousted administration they might have gone with a lower round pick for a second quarterback.
if for some reason Brian Hoyer goes 16 and 0 then great. if he does not I will be cheering for Johnny to live up to the hype. And as always the next guy to beat the Steelers is my boy.
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.
...but then you went ahead and said it better anyway...
... or at least took it deeper...I'm trying to think of the last QB drafted outside of the top ten that was clearly drafted to be the immediate starter. My pride won't let it be Wheezy... although it became pretty clear that QB competition was a sham. I believe Marino qualifies since the Fins went 7-2 despite David Woodley in '82.
Looks like most recent example was the Ravens taking Flacco at #18 overall in 2008.
...but then you went ahead and said it better anyway...
... or at least took it deeper...I'm trying to think of the last QB drafted outside of the top ten that was clearly drafted to be the immediate starter. My pride won't let it be Wheezy... although it became pretty clear that QB competition was a sham. I believe Marino qualifies since the Fins went 7-2 despite David Woodley in '82.
Looks like most recent example was the Ravens taking Flacco at #18 overall in 2008.
Interesting that you went with Flacco. He's certainly the most successful and his success does dispute my claim a tiny bit.
The thing about Flacco is that he was considered a reach at #17 by many, most analysts claimed they thought he'd be available in the early second. He was clearly taken to be their starter since they had nobody else and he had no competition throughout camp.
Flacco, like Marino, is the exception to the rule. More often than not, though, you get situations like Druckenmiller, Losman, Freeman, Tebow (kind of), etc. where the guy is available, you know you'll need a QB soon, so you take him late first and try and groom him behind another QB but it just doesn't work out.
Aside: I found this tidbit funny from CBSSports.com
Compares To: DEREK ANDERSON-Cleveland … Few quarterbacks in the NFL tower over a defensive line like Flacco and Anderson. Flacco has nowhere near Anderson's mobility moving around the backfield, but both have great confidence in their arm strength and ability to make all the throws. He has become the new girl on the dance floor in recent months, thanks to a decent showing in postseason all-star games. But be warned: Don't look at him as a product ready to step into the action at the next level. He came from a bad high school system, was held in mild regard at Pittsburgh and is basically a self-taught prospect, making him a work in progress who'll need time to learn the intricacies of the position. He probably has the best arm of any quarterback in this draft. But he also lacks experience, is unproven against top-level competition, played mostly in the shotgun and has barely adequate mobility. That combination makes him a risk if he's chosen in the top two rounds.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
First, I have made the same post as you in the past. I expect JM to start for us sometime in 2014 and he may even be THE starter from that game on this season. That's not the point... You have a bad habit of ignoring my main point in favor of some tangential argument. This is just the latest example. It's grown tiresome.
I see your logic as being "JM will be the starter therefore you may as well hand him the job now." If you can, please explain to me how I am wrong.
I don't know how many times I've said JM will be the starter WHEN HES READY. Thats all the Browns are waiting on. When he gets to the level they think he needs to be at, he's the starter. How is that saying they should hand him the job now?
Everything the Browns are doing is about Manziel. Its all about getting him ready. When he's ready the job is his.
I don't know how many times I've said JM will be the starter WHEN HES READY. Thats all the Browns are waiting on. When he gets to the level they think he needs to be at, he's the starter. How is that saying they should hand him the job now?
Everything the Browns are doing is about Manziel. Its all about getting him ready. When he's ready the job is his.
how is this any different than any player on the QB roster? they are only focused on Manziel? the others are simply camp arms?? WRONG. he may be the best chance for long term with his upside, but right now no one has a clue who will be the Browns QB starting the 2015 season. NO ONE.
Tour, my statement Hoyer walks talks and acts like he has the job right now cannot be challenged, he has said it himself countless times. it's infallible.
the "because he does" part is also supported by the consensus of reports and interviews. the only anamoly is Shanahan's comment about "no one currently being ahead" which requires proper context and should be taken with a grain of salt. he has an obligation to not only motivate his players but also a financial responsibility to the franchise regarding the handling of Manziel's fans. all accounts coming into this camp said Hoyer was still clearly ahead. nothing since has changed that.
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I like the blue.
Hoyer isn't going to be the starter long term. It's not a competition. Its a "Hoyer can start until we think Manziel is ready". Manziel isn't even competing against Hoyer he's competing against what the coaches expectations are. Once he meets those, Hoyer is out. Doesn't mean I think Manziel is going to be awesome, because I don't know. He could suck. However the idea that he's somehow competing to be the long term QB, and not being groomed to be the long term QB is wrong.
If you don't realize this, then you have low football IQ. There's no gray area here, that's the black and white of it.
that certainly is the logical view.. I assume if the front office had as much faith in Brian Hoyer as the ousted administration they might have gone with a lower round pick for a second quarterback.
if for some reason Brian Hoyer goes 16 and 0 then great. if he does not I will be cheering for Johnny to live up to the hype. And as always the next guy to beat the Steelers is my boy.
WSS
that certainly is the logical view.. I assume if the front office had as much faith in Brian Hoyer as the ousted administration they might have gone with a lower round pick for a second quarterback.
if for some reason Brian Hoyer goes 16 and 0 then great. if he does not I will be cheering for Johnny to live up to the hype. And as always the next guy to beat the Steelers is my boy.
WSS
I think the FO may have also been looking at the fifth year option that's available for 1st round picks.
Seeing as QB's are one of the most expensive positions, this might be a good move if the QB is even just decent (still a lot money).
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Picasso have unrealistic ideas about the abilities of Brian Hoyer as well?
Maybe you do. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HoyeBr00.htm I see one really bad game in his career, and a 80 QBR up there.
I like the blue.
Hoyer isn't going to be the starter long term. It's not a competition. Its a "Hoyer can start until we think Manziel is ready". Manziel isn't even competing against Hoyer he's competing against what the coaches expectations are. Once he meets those, Hoyer is out. Doesn't mean I think Manziel is going to be awesome, because I don't know. He could suck. However the idea that he's somehow competing to be the long term QB, and not being groomed to be the long term QB is wrong.
If you don't realize this, then you have low football IQ. There's no gray area here, that's the black and white of it.
Really Stockton- don't go continually insulting people if they don't happen to agree with your opinion- that's what got Mike H run out of town. That "black and white" happens to be your opinion. My opinion is Manziel was drafted by the Browns because the FO considered him to be a "value" pick in the bottom of the first- AND filled a need. Don't forget JFF was (not) thought of so highly by some scouts and analysts- they didn't even have a first round grade on him. Virtually everyone considered JF a Boom\Bust proposition pre-draft, and the Browns were playing with house money on that selection, those were bonus picks acquired from the Colts and Steelers. Farmer had the ammunition to roll the dice.
So yeah, JFF just like they say in Missouri "Show Me (us)". I hope he does well just like Gilbert, and Bitonio. This kid isn't the Le Bron James "can't miss" of the football world- drafted in the same spot as Brady Quinn and Brandon Weeden, he's got a lot to prove, and not just out on the practice field and preseason, when teams are playing don't show anything base defenses.There's a ton of us wait and see guys out there. Should Hoyer light it up, Manziel is going to be sitting- for a long time. If he sucks in the first three games, you'll get your wish to see Manziel- after the bye week.
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Who has one of those?would owning one of those jerseys be better or worse than taping over "Kosar" and writing in "Austin"?
just curious what others think.
WSS
Who has one of those?
WSS
betcha a stadium beer it happens
Bernie's ex wife might have one. lol
or how about an Austin fan w a #19 Kosar cowboys jersey covered w "Austin" worn this year? less probable, but wholly possible.
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What do Picasso and Frisky have in common?
and Hoyer walks, talks, and acts like he has the job right now, because right now he does.
What do Picasso and Frisky have in common?
im thinkin u were just ribbin' me
, but just in case here's a refresher on my stance.i'll admit, if the score were tied in overtime if JFF legitimately got them that far i'd rather have his intangibles and moxy in there for the final shootout. Hoyer is solid, but if Johnny can surpass him and stay healthy, his passion, unpredictability, and potential high ceiling could finally be the final major piece to our puzzle.
i just don't like bullies picking on ANY Browns, and although i play devil's advocate frequently poetic G and i actually have similar fandom to a great extent.
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What do Picasso and Frisky have in common?
and Hoyer walks, talks, and acts like he has the job right now, because right now he does.
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