JF leapfrogs Hoyer (accord. to source)
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and...... You're doneTo bad Johnny didnt go to another team. Bunch of ungrateful fans here.
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@everlastingxxx said:
There are plenty of reasons why Manziel should start on opening day.
He is going to make mistakes and you have to give him a chance to grow into the position. .
I dont think the NFL was like it was back in the day for rookie QBs. Many of them have immediately come in and been successful. The rules favor the offense and protecting the QB.
I also think these coaches have to win now. Playing around with a safer option might not translate to wins. The owner has no problem chunking a coaching staff after a season. Manziel will sacrifice his body for a yard. They will need that mentality to win in a tough division.
I say start Johnny. If he gets hurt (which is a real possibility) Hoyer will come in and save the day.
Plenty of reasons to not start Manziel right out of the gate too. You mentioned it- Manziel showed a propensity to sacrifice his body for a yard- that's a quick trip to IR in the NFL.
The first three games are brutal. Steelers on the road for the opener? Sure. I don't want to see JF toss a few pick sixes right out of the gate and get the fanbase POed at him. You may find it hard to believe- but JFF does not have a monopoly on Cleveland loyalty- at least not yet. He'll get reamed- and justifiably so, if you toss him in against the Steelers, and he stinks up the place.
To bad Johnny didnt go to another team. Bunch of ungrateful fans here.
That would have been tremendous- because YOU certainly wouldn't be here. Ungrateful because we don't think Johnny is quite capable of this? At least not yet?
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Hoyer throws nice passes, has good timing, makes great reads and is accurate
Manziel is more of gunslinger like a young Brett Favre, he has a good arm, he can move as well as anyone. The extra dimension is his ability to extend plays.
If The Browns don't rush this, I can see Manziel being our franchise QB and carrying the team on his back.
As for now, I would keep Hoyer as the starter unless he absolutely stinks up the place.
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@everlastingxxx said:
There are plenty of reasons why Manziel should start on opening day.
He is going to make mistakes and you have to give him a chance to grow into the position. .
I dont think the NFL was like it was back in the day for rookie QBs. Many of them have immediately come in and been successful. The rules favor the offense and protecting the QB.
I also think these coaches have to win now. Playing around with a safer option might not translate to wins. The owner has no problem chunking a coaching staff after a season. Manziel will sacrifice his body for a yard. They will need that mentality to win in a tough division.
I say start Johnny. If he gets hurt (which is a real possibility) Hoyer will come in and save the day.
Plenty of reasons to not start Manziel right out of the gate too. You mentioned it- Manziel showed a propensity to sacrifice his body for a yard- that's a quick trip to IR in the NFL.
The first three games are brutal. Steelers on the road for the opener? Sure. I don't want to see JF toss a few pick sixes right out of the gate and get the fanbase POed at him. You may find it hard to believe- but JFF does not have a monopoly on Cleveland loyalty- at least not yet. He'll get reamed- and justifiably so, if you toss him in against the Steelers, and he stinks up the place.
To bad Johnny didnt go to another team. Bunch of ungrateful fans here.
That would have been tremendous- because YOU certainly wouldn't be here. Ungrateful because we don't think Johnny is quite capable of this? At least not yet?
Plenty of reasons to not start Manziel right out of the gate too. You mentioned it- Manziel showed a propensity to sacrifice his body for a yard- that's a quick trip to IR in the NFL.
The first three games are brutal. Steelers on the road for the opener? Sure. I don't want to see JF toss a few pick sixes right out of the gate and get the fanbase POed at him. You may find it hard to believe- but JFF does not have a monopoly on Cleveland loyalty- at least not yet. He'll get reamed- and justifiably so, if you toss him in against the Steelers, and he stinks up the place.
That would have been tremendous- because YOU certainly wouldn't be here. Ungrateful because we don't think Johnny is quite capable of this? At least not yet?
Thats what pisses me off about the JFF fanboys. If he succeeds it will be 'I told you so, even though you didn't want him to succeed'. If he fails it will be 'because the coaches didn't utilize him correctly, and the fan base didn't support him.'. STFU already. If he succeeds it will be because he is good. If he fails vice versa.
"You planning on having a long relationship with that glass or are you going to drink it? Drink up, man. Maybe we can get another.” - Janis Joplin, 1970. -
Plenty of reasons to not start Manziel right out of the gate too. You mentioned it- Manziel showed a propensity to sacrifice his body for a yard- that's a quick trip to IR in the NFL.
The first three games are brutal. Steelers on the road for the opener? Sure. I don't want to see JF toss a few pick sixes right out of the gate and get the fanbase POed at him. You may find it hard to believe- but JFF does not have a monopoly on Cleveland loyalty- at least not yet. He'll get reamed- and justifiably so, if you toss him in against the Steelers, and he stinks up the place.
That would have been tremendous- because YOU certainly wouldn't be here. Ungrateful because we don't think Johnny is quite capable of this? At least not yet?
Thats what pisses me off about the JFF fanboys. If he succeeds it will be 'I told you so, even though you didn't want him to succeed'. If he fails it will be 'because the coaches didn't utilize him correctly, and the fan base didn't support him.'. STFU already. If he succeeds it will be because he is good. If he fails vice versa.
+1Thats what pisses me off about the JFF fanboys. If he succeeds it will be 'I told you so, even though you didn't want him to succeed'. If he fails it will be 'because the coaches didn't utilize him correctly, and the fan base didn't support him.'. STFU already. If he succeeds it will be because he is good. If he fails vice versa.
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I know this will sound like a hanging offense to my fellow "Manzealots", but unless JF clearly shows he can move the 1's to multiple scores (barring another RB fumble screwup or sure TD WR drop), then the starting job should go to Hoyer until the season is a loss. He proved before the injury that he could win and Johnny has a lot of ground to cover before he is truely ready. I still think he is the long term talent, but I want him to learn the art of the slide as much as anyone here. He's so damn competitive he just does not know the meaning yet of live to fight another day.
That said, he has shown in the past he is capable of doing things differently. He truely developed into a better pocket passer after the Heisman year and he ran half as often. That was all by design on his part. He's a smart guy and he will learn quick to jump or throw out of bounds and to slide well before a hit can be delivered. It is my hope for him that he finds that fine balance between Johnny Football and Johnny Cleveland. He will need both to help the Browns be where they want ot be.
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I know this will sound like a hanging offense to my fellow "Manzealots", but unless JF clearly shows he can move the 1's to multiple scores (barring another RB fumble screwup or sure TD WR drop), then the starting job should go to Hoyer until the season is a loss. He proved before the injury that he could win and Johnny has a lot of ground to cover before he is truely ready. I still think he is the long term talent, but I want him to learn the art of the slide as much as anyone here. He's so damn competitive he just does not know the meaning yet of live to fight another day.
That said, he has shown in the past he is capable of doing things differently. He truely developed into a better pocket passer after the Heisman year and he ran half as often. That was all by design on his part. He's a smart guy and he will learn quick to jump or throw out of bounds and to slide well before a hit can be delivered. It is my hope for him that he finds that fine balance between Johnny Football and Johnny Cleveland. He will need both to help the Browns be where they want ot be.
Rewatched JM's series last nite and the Zealots aren't going to like this, but he ain't ready for the NFL.
He spent the nite looking for open receivers rather than making reads... and that makes throws late. I only saw one throw that appeared to be on time... the post route to Gabriel. As I said in another thread, with one exception it appeared he looked at receiver and was done, then bailed. While he did not stare down every receiver, he had a couple doozies... most notably the stop to the far sideline that sailed over the WR's head.
The arm is there. The wheels are undeniable. But... the... kid... ain't... ready.
That said... give him the start vs. WSH.
@everlastingxxx said:
When i mentioned Manziel sacrificing his body for a yard i was talking about his mentality that every game matters to him. With a coaching staff on a short leash, they need someone who will sell out each game. Although Manziel did get injured, he never missed a game in college. Hoyer can easily toss a pick six aswell. You assume he is incapable of these same type of mistakes. JFF is loved in Cleveland. Maybe not on this forum but i believe many of you guys are not the majority. I have watched a number of youtube videos of his draft day, people of Cleveland love him. Reason why his jersey is #1 in the NFL. BTW, he wont stink it up against the Steelers. He will give the Browns a chance to win.
One... injury is a concern. NAd JM's indeniable competitive fire is the reason it is a concern. He got dinged in that little passion play you cite. He winched on the way back to the huddle the next two times he ran. Appeared to either be shoulder or neck.
Two... you and others, including JM, think missing the game is all that matters. Gruden said it to JM's face in his QB Camp: Missing practice matters at this level; Not being 100% matters. Is it coincidence that 2 Ag losses occurred when JM was dinged last year?
Three... I've no idea about how NE Ohio breaks down fan-wise and I do not care. What I do know is that NFL starters are not chosen by fans. If they were, then Teboe would start every Sunday.
I know this will sound like a hanging offense to my fellow "Manzealots", but unless JF clearly shows he can move the 1's to multiple scores (barring another RB fumble screwup or sure TD WR drop), then the starting job should go to Hoyer until the season is a loss. He proved before the injury that he could win and Johnny has a lot of ground to cover before he is truely ready. I still think he is the long term talent, but I want him to learn the art of the slide as much as anyone here. He's so damn competitive he just does not know the meaning yet of live to fight another day.
That said, he has shown in the past he is capable of doing things differently. He truely developed into a better pocket passer after the Heisman year and he ran half as often. That was all by design on his part. He's a smart guy and he will learn quick to jump or throw out of bounds and to slide well before a hit can be delivered. It is my hope for him that he finds that fine balance between Johnny Football and Johnny Cleveland. He will need both to help the Browns be where they want ot be.
I love objectivity...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Manziel vs RG knee. That screams tv dollars. It will happen and they had probably decided it weeks ago
Manziel vs RG knee. That screams tv dollars. It will happen and they had probably decided it weeks ago
even if they both start what do they play, one quarter?
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Rewatched JM's series last nite and the Zealots aren't going to like this, but he ain't ready for the NFL.
He spent the nite looking for open receivers rather than making reads... and that makes throws late. I only saw one throw that appeared to be on time... the post route to Gabriel. As I said in another thread, with one exception it appeared he looked at receiver and was done, then bailed. While he did not stare down every receiver, he had a couple doozies... most notably the stop to the far sideline that sailed over the WR's head.
The arm is there. The wheels are undeniable. But... the... kid... ain't... ready.
That said... give him the start vs. WSH.
@everlastingxxx said:
When i mentioned Manziel sacrificing his body for a yard i was talking about his mentality that every game matters to him. With a coaching staff on a short leash, they need someone who will sell out each game. Although Manziel did get injured, he never missed a game in college. Hoyer can easily toss a pick six aswell. You assume he is incapable of these same type of mistakes. JFF is loved in Cleveland. Maybe not on this forum but i believe many of you guys are not the majority. I have watched a number of youtube videos of his draft day, people of Cleveland love him. Reason why his jersey is #1 in the NFL. BTW, he wont stink it up against the Steelers. He will give the Browns a chance to win.
One... injury is a concern. NAd JM's indeniable competitive fire is the reason it is a concern. He got dinged in that little passion play you cite. He winched on the way back to the huddle the next two times he ran. Appeared to either be shoulder or neck.
Two... you and others, including JM, think missing the game is all that matters. Gruden said it to JM's face in his QB Camp: Missing practice matters at this level; Not being 100% matters. Is it coincidence that 2 Ag losses occurred when JM was dinged last year?
Three... I've no idea about how NE Ohio breaks down fan-wise and I do not care. What I do know is that NFL starters are not chosen by fans. If they were, then Teboe would start every Sunday.
I know this will sound like a hanging offense to my fellow "Manzealots", but unless JF clearly shows he can move the 1's to multiple scores (barring another RB fumble screwup or sure TD WR drop), then the starting job should go to Hoyer until the season is a loss. He proved before the injury that he could win and Johnny has a lot of ground to cover before he is truely ready. I still think he is the long term talent, but I want him to learn the art of the slide as much as anyone here. He's so damn competitive he just does not know the meaning yet of live to fight another day.
That said, he has shown in the past he is capable of doing things differently. He truely developed into a better pocket passer after the Heisman year and he ran half as often. That was all by design on his part. He's a smart guy and he will learn quick to jump or throw out of bounds and to slide well before a hit can be delivered. It is my hope for him that he finds that fine balance between Johnny Football and Johnny Cleveland. He will need both to help the Browns be where they want ot be.
I love objectivity...
Rewatched JM's series last nite and the Zealots aren't going to like this, but he ain't ready for the NFL.
He spent the nite looking for open receivers rather than making reads... and that makes throws late. I only saw one throw that appeared to be on time... the post route to Gabriel. As I said in another thread, with one exception it appeared he looked at receiver and was done, then bailed. While he did not stare down every receiver, he had a couple doozies... most notably the stop to the far sideline that sailed over the WR's head.
The arm is there. The wheels are undeniable. But... the... kid... ain't... ready.
That said... give him the start vs. WSH.
You could have taken those words right out of my mouth. What I watched was a guy with talent, but it's still needs to grow in terms of the NFL skill set. As I've said all along, give Hoyer the first three games before the bye. He sucks and the Browns struggle, time to bring Manziel in. That way you just don't throw him to the wolves but don't waste another season either.
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and if manziel sucks it WILL be another wasted season.
if that happens putting manziel in will look like a terrible mistake.
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@everlastingxxx said:
Will find out today in Pettines presser. May k is usually spot on with her reporting.
You are a very funny fellow. Ever try the standup clubs?
I do think Hoyer has done a fine job, he just doesnt have as dynamic of a skill set. Browns will need him in case Manziel gets hurt.
Hoyer and Manziel do have different skill sets....and sometimes it is the steady hand that still functions better than the dynamic hands.
And FYI, the history of the Browns lately is that they will need like 3-4 QBs when the starters get hurt. Just look at last year.
We may need JFF, Hoyer, and Connor Shaw before things are done.
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@everlastingxxx said:
There are plenty of reasons why Manziel should start on opening day.
First of all i think the pressure of having someone like Manziel on bench might be too much for him to handle.
Too much for who to handle? JFF? Or Hoyer. Hoyer could handle it I believe. He seems a cool customer
After every interception the question will be asked.
Every int. by every QB would be questioned. If JFF starts and begins handing the ball away.....then people will think he isn't ready. And maybe they would be right.
You either have the team behind you or you dont.
Agreed. And I think that either QB would have the team behind them.
Wouldnt be fair to Hoyer to put him on a short leash.
Agree again. Ergo, he should be on a long leash.
Hell, the kid has barely played in the NFL too.
But he has been involved in the NFL game much much longer. That experience does help some.
He is going to make mistakes and you have to give him a chance to grow into the position. I think if you roll with Hoyer you give him the whole season.
That may end up being the original plan......but the best laid plans aft gang aglay...as the poet said. If the original plan is to roll with Hoyer the whole season.....that plan could easily change if things go awry, then JFF would get his chance.
I dont think the NFL was like it was back in the day for rookie QBs. Many of them have immediately come in and been successful. The rules favor the offense and protecting the QB.
True.
I also think these coaches have to win now. Playing around with a safer option might not translate to wins.
So? You think it is better to go with the less safe option? That is illogical.
The owner has no problem chunking a coaching staff after a season.
I don't think that will happen again.
Manziel will sacrifice his body for a yard.
And that may be his downfall.
They will need that mentality to win in a tough division.
Wrecklessly getting injured is not the mentality that will win this division. (To JFF's credit, he did a nice job on that slide)
I say start Johnny. If he gets hurt (which is a real possibility) Hoyer will come in and save the day.
Or vice versa. It is not our choice to make.
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@everlastingxxx said:
There are plenty of reasons why Manziel should start on opening day.
He is going to make mistakes and you have to give him a chance to grow into the position. .
I dont think the NFL was like it was back in the day for rookie QBs. Many of them have immediately come in and been successful. The rules favor the offense and protecting the QB.
I also think these coaches have to win now. Playing around with a safer option might not translate to wins. The owner has no problem chunking a coaching staff after a season. Manziel will sacrifice his body for a yard. They will need that mentality to win in a tough division.
I say start Johnny. If he gets hurt (which is a real possibility) Hoyer will come in and save the day.
Plenty of reasons to not start Manziel right out of the gate too. You mentioned it- Manziel showed a propensity to sacrifice his body for a yard- that's a quick trip to IR in the NFL.
The first three games are brutal. Steelers on the road for the opener? Sure. I don't want to see JF toss a few pick sixes right out of the gate and get the fanbase POed at him. You may find it hard to believe- but JFF does not have a monopoly on Cleveland loyalty- at least not yet. He'll get reamed- and justifiably so, if you toss him in against the Steelers, and he stinks up the place.
To bad Johnny didnt go to another team. Bunch of ungrateful fans here.
That would have been tremendous- because YOU certainly wouldn't be here. Ungrateful because we don't think Johnny is quite capable of this? At least not yet?
Plenty of reasons to not start Manziel right out of the gate too. You mentioned it- Manziel showed a propensity to sacrifice his body for a yard- that's a quick trip to IR in the NFL.
The first three games are brutal. Steelers on the road for the opener? Sure. I don't want to see JF toss a few pick sixes right out of the gate and get the fanbase POed at him. You may find it hard to believe- but JFF does not have a monopoly on Cleveland loyalty- at least not yet. He'll get reamed- and justifiably so, if you toss him in against the Steelers, and he stinks up the place.
That would have been tremendous- because YOU certainly wouldn't be here. Ungrateful because we don't think Johnny is quite capable of this? At least not yet?
George Washington parting Lake Erie?
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Rewatched JM's series last nite and the Zealots aren't going to like this, but he ain't ready for the NFL.
He spent the nite looking for open receivers rather than making reads... and that makes throws late. I only saw one throw that appeared to be on time... the post route to Gabriel. As I said in another thread, with one exception it appeared he looked at receiver and was done, then bailed. While he did not stare down every receiver, he had a couple doozies... most notably the stop to the far sideline that sailed over the WR's head.
The arm is there. The wheels are undeniable. But... the... kid... ain't... ready.
That said... give him the start vs. WSH.
You could have taken those words right out of my mouth. What I watched was a guy with talent, but it's still needs to grow in terms of the NFL skill set. As I've said all along, give Hoyer the first three games before the bye. He sucks and the Browns struggle, time to bring Manziel in. That way you just don't throw him to the wolves but don't waste another season either.
You could have taken those words right out of my mouth. What I watched was a guy with talent, but it's still needs to grow in terms of the NFL skill set. As I've said all along, give Hoyer the first three games before the bye. He sucks and the Browns struggle, time to bring Manziel in. That way you just don't throw him to the wolves but don't waste another season either.
This is what the guys who are being objective and sensible about the situation have been saying for a long time. Tour and TXAg are saying it. And no, this isn't Hoyer Homerism out of me either.
Gives the Coaching staff enough tape to decide they want to go on with Hoyer, or bring in the rookie. If the Browns go 0-3 before the bye the season is pretty well shot anyway.
No one who isn't blind can't say Manziel doesn't have the athletic talent to succeed in the NFL anymore- he erased my doubts in that department in one quarter, but it takes more than athletic talent to be a winning quarterback in the NFL. Let the kid sit for a few games- at least- on the sidelines to see what real game speed in the NFL is.
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Plenty of reasons to not start Manziel right out of the gate too. You mentioned it- Manziel showed a propensity to sacrifice his body for a yard- that's a quick trip to IR in the NFL.
The first three games are brutal. Steelers on the road for the opener? Sure. I don't want to see JF toss a few pick sixes right out of the gate and get the fanbase POed at him. You may find it hard to believe- but JFF does not have a monopoly on Cleveland loyalty- at least not yet. He'll get reamed- and justifiably so, if you toss him in against the Steelers, and he stinks up the place.
That would have been tremendous- because YOU certainly wouldn't be here. Ungrateful because we don't think Johnny is quite capable of this? At least not yet?
George Washington parting Lake Erie?
George Washington parting Lake Erie?
Nah- Gip, that's one of my favorite labels- though I don't like that style of beer. Great Lakes Brewing Holy Moses, comes out around Christmas every year. Moses Cleaveland parting Lake Erie. Would have been more fitting if it had been the Cuyahoga River.
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It makes no sense to me to start the season with JF. The schedule is tough and he is a rookie who can learn from a couple of games on the bench. I agree that Hoyer will have a short leash and would have to play lights-out to stay on the field. But he should have the first three games.
PS Hoyer will never excel in a 1.5 quarter game because his strength is game management. He excels over the course of a full game, making few mistakes and taking what the defense gives him. I'm as ready as the next person to see the JF era in Cleveland, but Hoyer deserves his chance, and I wouldn't doubt his ability to succeed. When he was on a roll last year, he was moving the team consistently down the field and was extremely effective and efficient.
It makes no sense to me to start the season with JF. The schedule is tough and he is a rookie who can learn from a couple of games on the bench. I agree that Hoyer will have a short leash and would have to play lights-out to stay on the field. But he should have the first three games.
PS Hoyer will never excel in a 1.5 quarter game because his strength is game management. He excels over the course of a full game, making few mistakes and taking what the defense gives him. I'm as ready as the next person to see the JF era in Cleveland, but Hoyer deserves his chance, and I wouldn't doubt his ability to succeed. When he was on a roll last year, he was moving the team consistently down the field and was extremely effective and efficient.
Great post. I agree that it makes a lot of sense to start Hoyer, at least for the 1st 3 games. I get the feeling Pettine is leaning that way too. I just don't know if it's in the cards given the JF factor. SHOULD Manziel's popularity make any difference in who starts? Well...no, but let's face it, it's a reality.
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listen, i don't care who starts But if we are going to live in a society where popularity contests decide who gets a job or not, i think it's really sad.
the only thing i hope (given this media train wreck surrounding JF) is that haslam let's pettine and farmer do their jobs. to think you fire a coaching/FO staff last year just to bring in guys that you would ask to fold to fan and media pressure would be lame as hell.
fuck these JF fagboy fans. they'll be nowhere in sight if JF fails like his predecessors.
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Good points gernthefish and miktoxic. There are so many factors in realty that are outside the white lines and the grey matter (ie logical thought). Right now, the only thing we can do is sit back on Monday night and re-analyze the situation after the game. My instincts tell me that this controversy will escalate until a final decision is made after game three.
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