Oh look it's the Cleveland Browns forum.

Bangobango

Zombo said:

Manning had an SEC championship at 21. Johnny have one of those?

Then at 22 he was the first overall draft in the NFL. We already know Johnny isnt doing that either.

Manning then took every snap as a starter at 22, I'd love to see Johnny win the job outright and take every snap.

But Manning's resume was pretty "close" to Johnny's.

Zombo

It took Manning four years to win an SEC championship. It also took him four years to throw for 11k yards. Johnny had 8k in two years.

And if Johnny were three inches taller he'd been the first pick of the draft, no question. As it is, he's still the shortest qb taken in the first round in sixty years.

Oh yeah, and he's also the first freshman to ever win a heisman, which I heard is also a pretty big deal.

gftChris

@bangobango said:

It took Manning four years to win an SEC championship. It also took him four years to throw for 11k yards. Johnny had 8k in two years.

And if Johnny were three inches taller he'd been the first pick of the draft, no question. As it is, he's still the shortest qb taken in the first round in sixty years.

Oh yeah, and he's also the first freshman to ever win a heisman, which I heard is also a pretty big deal.

Right, because college success if a direct indicator of NFL success. There have been no players win the Heisman and then not go on to the Hall of Fame. Got it.

The Gipper

Gip can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Browns ever drafted a Heisman winner @ qb before JF. the very mediocre Vinny Testaverde stopped by for a season or three. Us grumpy old men happen to know college greatness doesn't always translate to the pros. Just ask two-time Heisman winner Archie Griffin about that .

The Browns have only ever drafted 2 Heisman winners: Charles White and now Johnny Football.

The did make the trade for Ernie Davis.

And the only other forays into employing former Heisman winners that I am aware of was in getting Vinny T. an Ty Detmer to play for the Browns.

Of those previous 4, only Vinny performend halfway decently for "us". He did make a Pro Bowl.

Of course, Ernie Davis died. Charles White tried to snort the end line, and Detmer was replaced after one start.

So we don't have a good track record on that account. JFF will have to change that pattern.

The Gipper

@bangobango said:

It took Manning four years to win an SEC championship. It also took him four years to throw for 11k yards. Johnny had 8k in two years.

And if Johnny were three inches taller he'd been the first pick of the draft, no question. As it is, he's still the shortest qb taken in the first round in sixty years.

Oh yeah, and he's also the first freshman to ever win a heisman, which I heard is also a pretty big deal.

None of that is a big deal or relevent when it comes to his pro career. I do hope he can be all that and a bag of chips. It remains to be seen.

letsgojackets

I'd say college stats are indicative of your potential at the next level just not as much as Bango thinks. Realistically if you don't put up stats in College your not sniffing the pros.

The Gipper

@gftchris said:
Right, because college success if a direct indicator of NFL success. There have been no players win the Heisman and then not go on to the Hall of Fame. Got it.

There have been 80 Heisman Winners in history since 1935. Only 8 of them have been elected into the PFHOF:

Doak Walker

Paul Hornung

Roger Staubach

OJ Simpson

Tony Dorsett

Earl Campbell

Marcus Allen

Barry Sanders

Note: the ONLY Heisman winning QB to make the PFHOF is Roger Staubach. And of those Heisman winning QBs not now in, ONLY maybe Jim Plunkett and Vinny Testaverde have potential arguments for inclusion. Plunkett for his two title wins, and Vinny for just his accumulation of statistics due to his longevity. Most don't think that either of those guys should be included amongst the greatest of all time.....because neither of them ever were close to being considered the best when they played.

And certainly no other retired Heisman winning QBs are going to make the list. I mean, look at these names:

Terry Baker, John Huarte, Steve Spurrier (probably College HOF as a coach), Doug Flutie (CFL HOF, sure), Andre Ware, Ty Detmer, Gino Torreta, Charlie Ward, Danny Wuerffel, Chris Weinke, Eric Crouch, Jason White, Matt Leinert, Troy Smith, Tim Tebow.

Carson Palmer started out like he could be a good candidate, but now that he is close to the end of his career....absolutely not.

Sam Bradford would have to have a major turnaround in his career going forward to warrant consideration.

As I see it, the second Heisman trophy winning QB to make the PFHOF after Staubach will probably have to come from the recent bunch: Cam Newton, RGIII, JFF, Jameis Winston. And there is a lot of potential there.

In fact the one comparison I heard regarding the QB styling that JFF could emulate is he to Roger Staubach. I would love for him to have that kind of potential.

Tour2ma

@letsgojackets said:
I'd say college stats are indicative of your potential at the next level just not as much as Bango thinks. Realistically if you don't put up stats in College your not sniffing the pros.

But when it is all you have...

@the-gipper said:

There have been 80 Heisman Winners in history since 1935. Only 8 of them have been elected into the PFHOF:

Note: the ONLY Heisman winning QB to make the PFHOF is Roger Staubach.

Since the Heisman has become more of a QB award, 13 of the last 14 were QBs, an unprecedented period, the Heisman QB HOFer count is bound to change rapidly.

Zombo

@bangobango said:

It took Manning four years to win an SEC championship. It also took him four years to throw for 11k yards. Johnny had 8k in two years.

And if Johnny were three inches taller he'd been the first pick of the draft, no question. As it is, he's still the shortest qb taken in the first round in sixty years.

Oh yeah, and he's also the first freshman to ever win a heisman, which I heard is also a pretty big deal.

Thanks for chirping in but the original statement was that Manning did not accomplish anything close to Manziel at age 21.

Here's Manning at age 21:

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/peyton-manning-1.html

Here's Manziel at age 21

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/johnny-manziel-1.html

I think you do, indeed, have to say Manning was "close" if you favor Manziel

Both of their entire college careers were completed when they were 21.

Manning turned 22 right before he was drafted, while Johnny turns 22 in December, so he can certainly add to his accomplishments if he can beat out an NFL journeyman and start racking up some NFL history.

Zombo

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:

But when it is all you have...

Since the Heisman has become more of a QB award, 13 of the last 14 were QBs, an unprecedented period, the Heisman QB HOFer count is bound to change rapidly.

Name any one that right now has a chance to become a HOFer? No one, as I documented above. If rapid change comes it won't come very rapidly....as in any time soon. There will not be a Heisman winning QB make the HOF for at least another 15 years. Like I said, the guys with some potential: Newton, RGIII, JFF....have practically their entire careers ahead of them.....then they will have another 5 year wait.

That is not to say that there won't be QBs inducted. Many will be......none of which though who won the Heisman.

Tour2ma

@the-gipper said:

Name any one that right now has a chance to become a HOFer? No one, as I documented above. If rapid change comes it won't come very rapidly....as in any time soon. There will not be a Heisman winning QB make the HOF for at least another 15 years. Like I said, the guys with some potential: Newton, RGIII, JFF....have practically their entire careers ahead of them.....then they will have another 5 year wait.

That is not to say that there won't be QBs inducted. Many will be......none of which though who won the Heisman.

Not a matter of being able to pick one now. As long as the Heisman continues its QB-fest, it's just numbers.

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:
Not a matter of being able to pick one now. As long as the Heisman continues its QB-fest, it's just numbers.

Not denying that........unless they keep picking the Matt Leinert's, Jason Whites, Eric Crouches.

I mean how do we know right now, really, if Cam is not going to be another Leinert....or the JFF will be Jason White....or the RGIII won't be ERic Crouch?

(well I think at this point Cam and RG have already far surpassed those other guys)

But it will still be 15 years.

Tour2ma

@the-gipper said:
But it will still be 15 years.

And may we still be here to see it...

The Gipper

@tour2ma said:
And may we still be here to see it...

It really isn't that important to me.....I figure that there will be any number of other non-Heisman winning QBs going into the HOF before any of the Heisman guys:

Favre

Brees

Brady

Peyton

Warner

Rodgers

Roethlisberger

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

McNabb....not

Eli.....if he won one more he could not be kept out

Rivers...no

Romo....no

anyone else at all?

Taco918

@the-gipper said:

Not denying that........unless they keep picking the Matt Leinert's, Jason Whites, Eric Crouches.

I mean how do we know right now, really, if Cam is not going to be another Leinert....or the JFF will be Jason White....or the RGIII won't be ERic Crouch?

(well I think at this point Cam and RG have already far surpassed those other guys)

But it will still be 15 years.

Hey now Jason White would've been, at the very least, decent in the NFL if he had any cartilage in his knees by the time he made the jump, hence him going undrafted.

Crouch was never going to make it as an NFL QB as Nebraska was still running the option at that point. Didn't he try to make a switch to WR?

Sorry gotta stick up for the Big 12.

The Gipper

@taco918 said:

Hey now Jason White would've been, at the very least, decent in the NFL if he had any cartilage in his knees by the time he made the jump, hence him going undrafted.

Crouch was never going to make it as an NFL QB as Nebraska was still running the option at that point. Didn't he try to make a switch to WR?

Sorry gotta stick up for the Big 12.

Name some decent Pro QBs that the Big 12 has produced.

And, Uhh, no, sorry, Brandon Weeden and Colt McCoy don't fit.

miktoxic

can't blame a guy for sticking up for his fave team/conference.

thank goodness ohio state has a tv contract or wouldn't see them at all. all i get here is big east (ha!), acc (double HA!) and plenty of sec.

all the standout QBs i've seen of late are out west except for winston but i think that dude is so flaky.....looks like a nibbler.

Taco918

@the-gipper said:

Name some decent Pro QBs that the Big 12 has produced.

And, Uhh, no, sorry, Brandon Weeden and Colt McCoy don't fit.

Gipper we've had this conversation before. The Big 12 was a traditionally option conference until just before the turn of the century. Crouch won the Heisman running the option. All of our current QB talent is just now, or has recently entered the league.

slowburn

@miktoxic said:

thank goodness ohio state has a tv contract or wouldn't see them at all. all i get here is big east (ha!), acc (double HA!) and plenty of sec.

ACC is becoming a decent football watch with the addition of Louisville and others. Notre Dame has signed up to play 5 ACC games per season although they are not eligible for league championship games.

Atlantic Division poll

Florida State – 780 (104 first place votes)
Clemson – 660 (3)
Louisville – 564
Syracuse - 368
North Carolina State – 326
Boston College – 301
Wake Forest – 136

Coastal Division poll

Miami – 614 (26)
Duke – 597 (33)
Virginia Tech – 571 (23)
North Carolina – 570 (27)
Georgia Tech – 322 (1)
Pittsburgh - 319 (2)
Virginia – 142

miktoxic

wow. i forgot how many teams have switched confs. for the exception of a couple of teams it used to be terrible to watch.

IMO.

Flyin J

@taco918 said:

Hey now Jason White would've been, at the very least, decent in the NFL if he had any cartilage in his knees by the time he made the jump, hence him going undrafted.

Crouch was never going to make it as an NFL QB as Nebraska was still running the option at that point. Didn't he try to make a switch to WR?

Sorry gotta stick up for the Big 12.

Crouch switched to safety, and he made it for a couple years before going to Canada.