Joe Haden got smoked again

Tour2ma

afcnorthravensfan509 said:
That last play was just (Flacco) reading the coverage and calling the perfect audible to the coverage Haden was playing. (Flacco) gambled and won. Had (Flacco) lost and Haden been expecting a slant and go it could have been a pick and game over. You win some you lose some.

Edited for simplicity since there are two Joes in your tale...

Best I can tell in the play the coverage Haden was in was man-press. Never saw where our Safeties were, but since they usually dictate coverage reads, (Flacco) must have known neither would be in position to help over the top.

Given that the Ravens:

- only needed 15 yds to be within FG range;

- had just run a 5-yd pass play; and

- had 1:28 to get in FG range;

... it is not surprising if our D was hedging towards shorter passes.

Smith Sr's route as I remember it was a stop and go. Looked like the mirror image of what Torry ran a year ago(?) that burned Haden for a game winning TD. Both times (Flacco) made his best throw of the game.

tml1138

It seemed they were keeping Flacco pretty well contained, and so chose to run the ball a lot...with success. Not huge runs for the most part, but nickel and diming all along.

And I'm not sure why Flacco had better success against the 12th man than Brees did...other than my guess is NO didn't realize what they were in for, and BLT learned from their problems.

D Bone

Seems we are not alone in being disappointed in Joe's play:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/09/mike_pettine_on_joe_hadens_str.html#incart_social_feature

Mike Pettine on Joe Haden's struggles: 'The great ones make plays when it's needed'

BEREA, Ohio -- The Browns paid Pro Bowl cornerback Joe Haden like one of the elite cornerbacks in the NFL in the offseason, and coach Mike Pettine called for him to play like it on Monday.

"He's played well at times, but as you can see, at some inopportune times he's not played well,'' said Pettine. "I think he'll admit that, as well. That's what we talk about. The great ones are going to make big plays when it's needed, and I think that's one area where Joe will look to improve."

Pettine was referring specifically to the 32-yard pass that Haden gave up to 14-year veteran Steve Smith down the right side to set up Justin Tucker's gamewinning field goal as time expired to give the Ravens to a 23-21 victory. The 35-year-old wideout sprinted comfortably behind Haden on a go-route and made the big play in crunch time that sealed the victory for his team.

Pettine thinks it should've been the other way around.

"The pass at the end, that was a perfectly thrown ball,'' said Pettine. "We need to make a play though. That's disappointing that we battled for as long as we did. We were going to make them drive and earn it, and they were able to hit and basically end the game there with that big chunk. We have to step up. We talk to the guys all the time – be at your best when your best is needed."

With the Ravens trailing 21-20, Joe Flacco took over at the 50 with 1:58 remaining. Smith's backbreaker came on the second play of the drive, on second and 5 from the 45. After the catch, all Flacco had to do was run down the clock and make way for the kick.

"It was unfortunate that it happened because we're in a bottom-line business, and Joe, for the most part throughout the game, played very well,'' said Pettine. "You can go back to the Saints game (when he gave up a 9-yard TD to Jimmy Graham). You can look at two plays and vilify Joe, but for the rest of the game he played very well. That's life in the NFL."

Pettine said he didn't think Haden was still suffering the ill effects of the foot injury that caused him to miss the final two preseason games.

"Not to my knowledge,'' said Pettine.

But something's not quite right with Haden this season, and the three straight Super Bowl winning quarterbacks they faced have had no qualms about going after him with the game on the line. His struggles are also reflected in the Browns' 27th-ranked pass defense:

* In the opener, a 30-27 loss to the Steelers he gave up a 35-yard TD pass to Antonio Brown, another 18-yarder to Brown that led to a field goal and a holding call on Brown on that same drive. He was called for holding Brown again in the third quarter. He also missed a tackle on Brown on a 41-yard pass on the opening drive.

* In the 26-24 victory over the Saints, Haden gave up the 9-yard TD pass to tight end Jimmy Graham, and a 20-yarder to Graham to the 3 in the fourth quarter that led to a TD two plays later. He also surrendered a 15-yard pass to Robert Meachem.

In fact, Haden is currently ranked 93 out of 95 cornerbacks on profootballfocus.com with a -7.5 grade. He's 90 out of 95 in coverage with a -4.9 grade and is worst among all cornerbacks with a QB rating of 155.3 when they throw into his coverage.

He's also tied for 10th in the NFL with his three penalties and tied for fourth with two TDs surrendered.

But Browns safety Jim Leonhard, a 10-year pro who's in his sixth season under Pettine, says Haden is the least of the Browns' worries.

"You ask Joe,'' said Leonhard. "He's as competitive as it gets and he's as good as it gets in this league, and he's not playing up to his standards right now -- and he'll be the first one to tell you that. But we've got a lot of confidence in Joe. He's the last guy we need to worry about. If we start worrying about Joe, we've got a lot of issues before that.

In the offseason, the Browns rewarded their 2010 No. 7 overall pick with a huge five-year extension worth $68 million, including $45 million in total guarantees and a $13.5 million average. It made him the third highest-paid cornerback in the league behind Arizona's Patrick Peterson ($14.01 million) and Seattle's Richard Sherman ($14 million). Currently, profootballfocus.com has Peterson ranked No. 79 and Sherman No. 23.

"Joe's got a lot of confidence and it's not like he's going to go into a shell here, and not play like himself because of what's happened,'' said Leonhard. "He's got a lot of pride in what he does and the way that he works day in and day out, it's going to get corrected. We all know that.''

Always a standup guy, Haden took full responsibility for the gaffe after the game.

"We pride ourselves on going on the field, making plays and getting stops and I just didn't do that today,'' he said. "It was a really good play. He just got me on a go route. It was a good throw and catch, but I put it on myself and I understand I have to make that play."

Last season, Haden finished 17th overall among cornerbacks on profootballfocus.com, and quarterbacks had only a 75.2 rating when throwing his way. He did, however, finish tied for 10th in the NFL with sixth TDs surrendered.

Still, the Browns are looking for Haden to start playing like the Pro Bowler he was last year.

hoorta

@tml1138 said:

It is frustrating losses. We all feel it. So close in Pittsburgh after a remarkable 2nd half return. Close win vs Saints, but damn...a win vs Saints! Then another frustrating one vs Ravens. Two very close losses and one win so far...with a whole new staff, coaches, and quite the different team of players as well.

Don't know how much longer my ticker can take it, but these games have been fun to watch and exciting. Offense looks so much better, consistently better even, than it has in years. The problems the Browns are having right now with DEF and ST can be fixed, this year.

And at least we didn't have a game like Tampa Bay did vs Atlanta....

We're a couple of play away from being 3-0. Browns convert on that 3rd and seven, and we're not having this discussion. Yes, Haden has been uncharacteristically bad so far. Putting him solo on Graham in the Saints game was a mismatch- and I dare anyone to tell me otherwise. OK, he's given up some big plays- so does ever other CB.

WalterWhite

So wow even Mike Pettine acknowledges he's getting burnt and the stats and numbers support my claim but somehow I'm still wrong. I hate to say it but I told you so.

I love Joe but he has to fix this shit quick.

The Gipper

I think that toe injury is bothering him a lot more than he or anyone else is claiming.

WalterWhite

@hoorta said:

We're a couple of play away from being 3-0. Browns convert on that 3rd and seven, and we're not having this discussion. Yes, Haden has been uncharacteristically bad so far. Putting him solo on Graham in the Saints game was a mismatch- and I dare anyone to tell me otherwise. OK, he's given up some big plays- so does ever other CB.

Joe Haden got paid 60 million dollars and is a bottom teir starter right now. He's playing like a 60 dollar CB.

Yes we got it that all CB's get beat but he's been dogshit so far this year.

calfoxwc

bs. He had a foot/toe injury that was bothering him

in the preseason.

Come on, man.

WalterWhite

60 million dollars and the leagues worst 155 QBR when targeted.

Thats unacceptable and even Pettine knows it.

LogicIsForSquares

It appears that Pettine will be the type of coach who calls players out for bad play.

tml1138

@hoorta said:

OK, he's given up some big plays- so does ever other CB.

Yes. Just wish it wasn't on such game winning critical plays.

@logicisforsquares said:
It appears that Pettine will be the type of coach who calls players out for bad play.

Are you saying this as a good or bad thing?

LogicIsForSquares

I guess it depends on the player. I imagine some players will get butthurt over getting called out publicly for poor play. Others will likely use it as motivation to not suck.

I like accountability so long as Pettine realizes it goes both ways.

Tour2ma

@walterwhite said:

So wow even Mike Pettine acknowledges he's getting burnt and the stats and numbers support my claim but somehow I'm still wrong. I hate to say it but I told you so.

I love Joe but he has to fix this shit quick.

And now you love Joe?

With you its not about being right or wrong, it's about your knee-jerk, reactionary tirades that lack depth, conviction and longevity.

Case in point... according to you all we need to do to fix Haden is cut his pay. Did Pettine say that as well?

@logicisforsquares said:

I guess it depends on the player. I imagine some players will get butthurt over getting called out publicly for poor play. Others will likely use it as motivation to not suck.

I like accountability so long as Pettine realizes it goes both ways.

All true...

I'm not too concerned about Pettine holding himself accountable. Not sensing a reality gap there...

I am somewhat concerned that he talks about players fairly freely to the press, but apparently reserves details of his staff criticism for meetings. Other than the following any knowledge of his reported staff reaming seems to have come from source leaks.

"'I thought for the bulk of it the players played well enough to have a victory. I put this one on me. We didn’t coach well enough to win today. I’m not going to get into too much of the specifics until I get a chance to go through it. The list is long,' Pettine said, via the Cleveland Plain Dealer."

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/22/pettine-blames-himself-for-browns-loss/

WalterWhite

No goofy, its about a top 5 elite CB who got

Paid 60 million dollars and is dead last in the NFL.

You don't get paid 60 million and quit playing.

thenew23

"League's worst QBR 'when targeted'"??

I'm actually curious to see how many times he's been targeted compared to the NFL average. I haven't been able to find that stat, but that is the one that shows how good a "man coverage" corner actually is. If you're only targeted 5 times a game, but give up 4 catches that isn't that bad. TDs are the killer, and he's given up 2 to Graham which I'm sure hurts the stat-line...

Worst in the NFL?? LOL

I'm actually curous about the same state for Gilbert. He hasn't been thrown at that much, but when he's been challenged deep he's been beaten...

Comparing CBs is difficult because you can't watch them every play on TV...

Tour2ma

@walterwhite said:
No goofy, its about a top 5 elite CB who got...

If you're going to resort to name calling, at least get original...

@thenew23 said:

"League's worst QBR 'when targeted'"??

I'm actually curious to see how many times he's been targeted compared to the NFL average. I haven't been able to find that stat, but that is the one that shows how good a "man coverage" corner actually is. If you're only targeted 5 times a game, but give up 4 catches that isn't that bad. TDs are the killer, and he's given up 2 to Graham which I'm sure hurts the stat-line...

Worst in the NFL?? LOL

I'm actually curous about the same state for Gilbert. He hasn't been thrown at that much, but when he's been challenged deep he's been beaten...

Comparing CBs is difficult because you can't watch them every play on TV...

Only one I that currently does what I think you're asking is ProFootballFocus, but it is a pay site (see below).

I think another site does similar stuff, but doesn't start until there's more data... week six or so. It may even be NFL.com as they wait for data accumulation for some stats.

Sportingcharts.com does little data manipulation, but provides raw player data that can feed analyses, e.g., player snap counts. Haden has only missed 2 of 209 so far; Gilbert has only played 120. Same for stats.washingtonpost.com.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/pff-signature-stats/#Coverage

"Coverage (3-4OLB, 4-3OLB, ILB/MLB, CB, S)

Reputation can scare opponents from challenging certain defenders, or it can put a target on the back of a cover man. That reputation can be well deserved or the product of unfounded hype. In order to cut through the noise, you need to see the numbers. This set of Signature Stats tallies all things coverage related, from snaps spent in coverage to Yards After the Catch on completions aimed at each defender.

The numbers for all linebackers and defensive backs when deemed the primary cover man are here and they add up to some never-before-seen measures (Yards Per Cover Snap, Cover Snaps Per Target, and Cover Snaps Per Reception) that will help you sort out who’s getting the job done. To top it all off, as we did with the WR Rating, we’ve back-calculated the Passer Rating opponents produce when throwing at each defender."

Cbus Brownie

@hoorta said:

We're a couple of play away from being 3-0. Browns convert on that 3rd and seven, and we're not having this discussion. Yes, Haden has been uncharacteristically bad so far. Putting him solo on Graham in the Saints game was a mismatch- and I dare anyone to tell me otherwise. OK, he's given up some big plays- so does ever other CB.

We're s couple plays away from being 0-3, too. Lets stop talking about what could've happened and focus on what DID HAPPEN.

D Bone

After 3 weeks, the Browns have the NFL's 31st ranked defense................... Wow.

Even with that sieve of a unit, we are 2 plays away from being 3-0. Before the season, most of us were stressing the QB and WR positions and didn't even think twice about the D....... Go figure.

Vers

Joe has always been overrated by the fans. Until last year, he never covered the other team's #1 WR. He just played a side. Horton asked him to step up. He did..........somewhat, but he seemed to give up a lot of late plays that were huge in us losing games.

I think Joe does better against bigger receivers. He is very physical. He gets them off their rhythm. Smaller, quicker receivers give him more problems.

The new emphasis on not being handsy is hurting Joe. He is not a quick-footed guy. He relies on his hands. This rule enforcement takes away some of his effectiveness, and fortunately, he is getting away w/more than most because of his rep.

I think the guy is okay, but he isn't even close to deserving the top CB money in the NFL. That is a freaking joke.

Vers

@d-bone said:

After 3 weeks, the Browns have the NFL's 31st ranked defense................... Wow.

Even with that sieve of a unit, we are 2 plays away from being 3-0. Before the season, most of us were stressing the QB and WR positions and didn't even think twice about the D....... Go figure.

That is very true. Good point.