Brian Hoyer-hating seems misguided and misplaced
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The problem is that the instant he engaged with McCoy Bito's leg was behind him. So his base was essentially gone before he even got started. I mean he had problems the whole game, but not THAT bad as we see in that gif. That happened once. Yeah he couldn't keep guys out of the backfield much but he wasn't getting dropped on his ass. That's gotta be Bito's fault. Any of the guys that played O line here know that the line coaches always yelled at you if you doubled up on a guy and got your feet close to your lineman.....for this exact reason.
Idk that I'd really blame either of them. I'd blame McD more for getting thrown back so fast, but it is Gerald McCoy.
The problem is that the instant he engaged with McCoy Bito's leg was behind him. So his base was essentially gone before he even got started. I mean he had problems the whole game, but not THAT bad as we see in that gif. That happened once. Yeah he couldn't keep guys out of the backfield much but he wasn't getting dropped on his ass. That's gotta be Bito's fault. Any of the guys that played O line here know that the line coaches always yelled at you if you doubled up on a guy and got your feet close to your lineman.....for this exact reason.
Looks like McD was bullied and dropped face down more than once, but he seemed to get a little better as the game went on.
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The problem is that the instant he engaged with McCoy Bito's leg was behind him. So his base was essentially gone before he even got started. I mean he had problems the whole game, but not THAT bad as we see in that gif. That happened once. Yeah he couldn't keep guys out of the backfield much but he wasn't getting dropped on his ass. That's gotta be Bito's fault. Any of the guys that played O line here know that the line coaches always yelled at you if you doubled up on a guy and got your feet close to your lineman.....for this exact reason.
Looks like McD was bullied and dropped face down more than once, but he seemed to get a little better as the game went on.
Looks like McD was bullied and dropped face down more than once, but he seemed to get a little better as the game went on.
Pretty much the case as I saw it as well.
Nick McDonald: 1st +4-11 net -8 w/ 4D-; 2nd +6-12 net -6 w/ 1D-; Game Totals: +10-23 net -13
First off... the spectacular, early blow up of McD by McCoy (S1P3) was "enhanced" by Bito's right foot tripping McD (look close at the gif, you'll see it). Not that he wasn't on his way to Hoyer's lap, if not the ground, anyway. To prove he did not need Bito's help, he got himself planted again two plays later (S1P5). For the balance of the Q1 he actually played "decent", +2-0 ball. Q2 brought back-to-back bad on S5P2&3. First an LB ripped him on his way to stuffing West for a 4 yd loss. Then he was too slow to plug a gap allowing a QB hurry.
In a nutshell I see power in McD's game if he has a little space/ time to gear up for a drive block. Under such circumstance he even managed to turn McCoy one time... a nice effort there. But if McD is beaten to the punch or is not square to his assignment, there's trouble in his immediate future. Same is true if he can set for pass protection, but if driven back at the snap, he can't halt the surge. He does generally keep his head on a decent swivel in pass protection and can pick up a stunt into his area, but lacks the quicks to move and help.
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I'm a fan of playing Hoyer.
But also, know this. He is IN NO WAY worth Flacco money. If his agent brings that up even as a joke [or a starting point]in the offseason, he's released and good riddance without a second thought. At best 3 yrs / $20M.
Yes, Manziel sits. He should. But Hoyer's value is not infinite.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
The Browns and Hoyers agent are both doing their jobs respectively, just like any other contract negotiations . You always ask for more than you will accept and the owners offer less than they will accept. Hence the bargaining process will eventually work out. The Browns know Hoyer wants to play for his hometown team (who wouldn't), and that's their bargaining chip. Hoyer has had more success than any QB in recent history and that's his bargaining chip. The fly in the ointment is actually Manziel.
Do the Browns go out on a limb and insinuate that Jonnny's their guy for the future to pressure Hoyer to sign for less or worse yet, force Hoyer out? Both sides could be treading on thin ice. If Hoyer's forced out and Johnny Football is a bust "You got a lotta splainin' to do Lucy !" Either way it will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
GO BROWNS !
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I'm a fan of playing Hoyer.
But also, know this. He is IN NO WAY worth Flacco money. If his agent brings that up even as a joke [or a starting point]in the offseason, he's released and good riddance without a second thought. At best 3 yrs / $20M.
Yes, Manziel sits. He should. But Hoyer's value is not infinite.
I'm a fan of playing Hoyer.
But also, know this. He is IN NO WAY worth Flacco money. If his agent brings that up even as a joke [or a starting point]in the offseason, he's released and good riddance without a second thought. At best 3 yrs / $20M.
Yes, Manziel sits. He should. But Hoyer's value is not infinite.
I don't think Flacco is worth Flacco money
Quite frankly, Hoyer is only half way through the process of showing us what he's worth. If the boi tosses it up for 3000 yards in the back 8 and lights it up, then what
(I don't think it'll happen, but just sayin' if it did - the likes of Tampa, Tenn, Buffalo may get more interested)I know, I know Stockton's argument of "Well if we don't re-sign Hoyer, and Manziel sucks in 2015 we're set back 5 years but we could just find out if Manziel is good now." Although I can make sense of it (maybe I'm a genius), I disagree you can fairly evaluate Manziel in < 8 games, and I believe he's discrediting Hoyer too much.
Anyway I think everybody's looking ahead too early. Let the season play out until we get a better idea. Agents suck, Hoyer wants to be here. We have to offer him something fair without overpaying but that's the challenge with every FA signing.
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I'm a fan of playing Hoyer.
But also, know this. He is IN NO WAY worth Flacco money. If his agent brings that up even as a joke [or a starting point]in the offseason, he's released and good riddance without a second thought. At best 3 yrs / $20M.
Yes, Manziel sits. He should. But Hoyer's value is not infinite.
I don't think Flacco is worth Flacco money
Quite frankly, Hoyer is only half way through the process of showing us what he's worth. If the boi tosses it up for 3000 yards in the back 8 and lights it up, then what
(I don't think it'll happen, but just sayin' if it did - the likes of Tampa, Tenn, Buffalo may get more interested)I know, I know Stockton's argument of "Well if we don't re-sign Hoyer, and Manziel sucks in 2015 we're set back 5 years but we could just find out if Manziel is good now." Although I can make sense of it (maybe I'm a genius), I disagree you can fairly evaluate Manziel in < 8 games, and I believe he's discrediting Hoyer too much.
Anyway I think everybody's looking ahead too early. Let the season play out until we get a better idea. Agents suck, Hoyer wants to be here. We have to offer him something fair without overpaying but that's the challenge with every FA signing.
I don't think Flacco is worth Flacco money
Quite frankly, Hoyer is only half way through the process of showing us what he's worth. If the boi tosses it up for 3000 yards in the back 8 and lights it up, then what
(I don't think it'll happen, but just sayin' if it did - the likes of Tampa, Tenn, Buffalo may get more interested)I know, I know Stockton's argument of "Well if we don't re-sign Hoyer, and Manziel sucks in 2015 we're set back 5 years but we could just find out if Manziel is good now." Although I can make sense of it (maybe I'm a genius), I disagree you can fairly evaluate Manziel in < 8 games, and I believe he's discrediting Hoyer too muc
Anyway I think everybody's looking ahead too early. Let the season play out until we get a better idea. Agents suck, Hoyer wants to be here. We have to offer him something fair without overpaying but that's the challenge with every FA signing.
I agree bb, but please refrain from quoting Stockboy, I just threw up in my mouth a little.
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I'm a fan of playing Hoyer.
But also, know this. He is IN NO WAY worth Flacco money. If his agent brings that up even as a joke [or a starting point]in the offseason, he's released and good riddance without a second thought. At best 3 yrs / $20M.
Yes, Manziel sits. He should. But Hoyer's value is not infinite.
I don't think Flacco is worth Flacco money
Quite frankly, Hoyer is only half way through the process of showing us what he's worth. If the boi tosses it up for 3000 yards in the back 8 and lights it up, then what
(I don't think it'll happen, but just sayin' if it did - the likes of Tampa, Tenn, Buffalo may get more interested)I know, I know Stockton's argument of "Well if we don't re-sign Hoyer, and Manziel sucks in 2015 we're set back 5 years but we could just find out if Manziel is good now." Although I can make sense of it (maybe I'm a genius), I disagree you can fairly evaluate Manziel in < 8 games, and I believe he's discrediting Hoyer too much.
Anyway I think everybody's looking ahead too early. Let the season play out until we get a better idea. Agents suck, Hoyer wants to be here. We have to offer him something fair without overpaying but that's the challenge with every FA signing.
I don't think Flacco is worth Flacco money
Quite frankly, Hoyer is only half way through the process of showing us what he's worth. If the boi tosses it up for 3000 yards in the back 8 and lights it up, then what
(I don't think it'll happen, but just sayin' if it did - the likes of Tampa, Tenn, Buffalo may get more interested)I know, I know Stockton's argument of "Well if we don't re-sign Hoyer, and Manziel sucks in 2015 we're set back 5 years but we could just find out if Manziel is good now." Although I can make sense of it (maybe I'm a genius), I disagree you can fairly evaluate Manziel in < 8 games, and I believe he's discrediting Hoyer too much.
Anyway I think everybody's looking ahead too early. Let the season play out until we get a better idea. Agents suck, Hoyer wants to be here. We have to offer him something fair without overpaying but that's the challenge with every FA signing.
While I agree on Flacco (and Dalton and Kaepernick and Ryan and...), Flacco put up contract year numbers that clearly said, "I am worth keeping". To date discerning the $ value of Hoyer is tougher. Just another reason to keep playing as long as we are mathematically in contention.
Mathematical contention is as much as anything a two-word summary of the difference between most here and the omniscient StockBoy.
As for wasting time not evaluating JM... First, he has to be ready. If you put him on the field before he has both the playbook command and the ability to read D's, you are only hurting your ability to evaluate him. Learn the former in practice. Learn the latter in film sessions. Without both you are only evaluating his ability to miss plays, pull the ball down prematurely and run around... and we've already done that.
When we get around to evaluating JM, if he is not "the one", then we still have an unassuming #3 on the roster who is not devoid of talent.
And there will be others...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I don't think Flacco is worth Flacco money
Quite frankly, Hoyer is only half way through the process of showing us what he's worth. If the boi tosses it up for 3000 yards in the back 8 and lights it up, then what
(I don't think it'll happen, but just sayin' if it did - the likes of Tampa, Tenn, Buffalo may get more interested)I know, I know Stockton's argument of "Well if we don't re-sign Hoyer, and Manziel sucks in 2015 we're set back 5 years but we could just find out if Manziel is good now." Although I can make sense of it (maybe I'm a genius), I disagree you can fairly evaluate Manziel in < 8 games, and I believe he's discrediting Hoyer too much.
Anyway I think everybody's looking ahead too early. Let the season play out until we get a better idea. Agents suck, Hoyer wants to be here. We have to offer him something fair without overpaying but that's the challenge with every FA signing.
While I agree on Flacco (and Dalton and Kaepernick and Ryan and...), Flacco put up contract year numbers that clearly said, "I am worth keeping". To date discerning the $ value of Hoyer is tougher. Just another reason to keep playing as long as we are mathematically in contention.
Mathematical contention is as much as anything a two-word summary of the difference between most here and the omniscient StockBoy.
As for wasting time not evaluating JM... First, he has to be ready. If you put him on the field before he has both the playbook command and the ability to read D's, you are only hurting your ability to evaluate him. Learn the former in practice. Learn the latter in film sessions. Without both you are only evaluating his ability to miss plays, pull the ball down prematurely and run around... and we've already done that.
When we get around to evaluating JM, if he is not "the one", then we still have an unassuming #3 on the roster who is not devoid of talent.
And there will be others...
When we get around to evaluating JM, if he is not "the one", then we still have an unassuming #3 on the roster who is not devoid of talent.
....and that #3 looks a lot like the current #2. In a good way. And, to me, "someday" It would make sense for the 1 & 2 to have similar styles and capabilities
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When we get around to evaluating JM, if he is not "the one", then we still have an unassuming #3 on the roster who is not devoid of talent.
....and that #3 looks a lot like the current #2. In a good way. And, to me, "someday" It would make sense for the 1 & 2 to have similar styles and capabilities
....and that #3 looks a lot like the current #2. In a good way. And, to me, "someday" It would make sense for the 1 & 2 to have similar styles and capabilities
I think the current system seems to be designed in a large way to emphasise the attributes that Hoyer and Manziel share, perhaps even a little bit leaning towards Manziel. A strong run game will allow a touch of read option; play action and roll-outs will get Manziel the ball in space and time, where he can make a read or two, or if it's not there, do something with his legs (A&M highlight reel style).
Maybe I'm wrong, but we don't seem to be doing as much pure pocket passing as previous years. Or maybe I'm just noticing the PAP more because that's what Hoyer seems to excel on, where Weeden and Campbell sucked.
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....and that #3 looks a lot like the current #2. In a good way. And, to me, "someday" It would make sense for the 1 & 2 to have similar styles and capabilities
I think the current system seems to be designed in a large way to emphasise the attributes that Hoyer and Manziel share, perhaps even a little bit leaning towards Manziel. A strong run game will allow a touch of read option; play action and roll-outs will get Manziel the ball in space and time, where he can make a read or two, or if it's not there, do something with his legs (A&M highlight reel style).
Maybe I'm wrong, but we don't seem to be doing as much pure pocket passing as previous years. Or maybe I'm just noticing the PAP more because that's what Hoyer seems to excel on, where Weeden and Campbell sucked.
I think the current system seems to be designed in a large way to emphasise the attributes that Hoyer and Manziel share, perhaps even a little bit leaning towards Manziel. A strong run game will allow a touch of read option; play action and roll-outs will get Manziel the ball in space and time, where he can make a read or two, or if it's not there, do something with his legs (A&M highlight reel style).
Maybe I'm wrong, but we don't seem to be doing as much pure pocket passing as previous years. Or maybe I'm just noticing the PAP more because that's what Hoyer seems to excel on, where Weeden and Campbell sucked.
I would agree. To me, the current system is kind of a bridge or transition to the someday future more wide open JFF system. Allows Hoyer AND the players to start adapting now, while still winning games. And, in the future someday who knows when, it will just need a tweak to go to the next level, instead of starting over.
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....and that #3 looks a lot like the current #2. In a good way. And, to me, "someday" It would make sense for the 1 & 2 to have similar styles and capabilities
I think the current system seems to be designed in a large way to emphasise the attributes that Hoyer and Manziel share, perhaps even a little bit leaning towards Manziel. A strong run game will allow a touch of read option; play action and roll-outs will get Manziel the ball in space and time, where he can make a read or two, or if it's not there, do something with his legs (A&M highlight reel style).
Maybe I'm wrong, but we don't seem to be doing as much pure pocket passing as previous years. Or maybe I'm just noticing the PAP more because that's what Hoyer seems to excel on, where Weeden and Campbell sucked.
I think the current system seems to be designed in a large way to emphasise the attributes that Hoyer and Manziel share, perhaps even a little bit leaning towards Manziel. A strong run game will allow a touch of read option; play action and roll-outs will get Manziel the ball in space and time, where he can make a read or two, or if it's not there, do something with his legs (A&M highlight reel style).
Maybe I'm wrong, but we don't seem to be doing as much pure pocket passing as previous years. Or maybe I'm just noticing the PAP more because that's what Hoyer seems to excel on, where Weeden and Campbell sucked.
Pretty sure we are doing more naked boots, and in general we are certainly passing less as even this year's currently diminished ground game would have looked awesome compared to most of what we had last year. So the pocket passing is likely down, but a lot of PAP action still ends up in the pocket.
Other than the pistol, which is more JM friendly, I think the formations are fairly neutral.
JM is a good PA QB, but BH's skills are greater IMO. Haven't seen PA skills like Hoyer's in a Browns uniform since Sipe. But in fairness, we've been thru so many QBs I may have forgotten a couple. Dilfer's were good as were Holcomb's. And at one point Garcia's were very good, but I think those were his SF days.
Wheezy made Campbell's limited PA skills look great...
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Just for the record one of those wins should be Weeden's.
Still a nice little start.....
WSS
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Manziel is a complete fraud. Anyone who thinks his gimmicky nonsense is going to take the Browns to the promised land may as well start a bid to sign Tebow while they're at it.
In Hoyer you have a guy who learned under Belichick and Brady and is now winning games for you.
Get rid of him for a media gimmick and watch how fast you become miserable, hopeless Brown fans again (no offense) full of regrets.
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Manziel is a complete fraud. Anyone who thinks his gimmicky nonsense is going to take the Browns to the promised land may as well start a bid to sign Tebow while they're at it.
In Hoyer you have a guy who learned under Belichick and Brady and is now winning games for you.
Get rid of him for a media gimmick and watch how fast you become miserable, hopeless Brown fans again (no offense) full of regrets.
Manziel is a complete fraud.
Disagree, but even if he is, he's now our "complete fraud"... so tread carefully.
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I'm a fan of playing Hoyer.
But also, know this. He is IN NO WAY worth Flacco money. If his agent brings that up even as a joke [or a starting point]in the offseason, he's released and good riddance without a second thought. At best 3 yrs / $20M.
Yes, Manziel sits. He should. But Hoyer's value is not infinite.
I'm a fan of playing Hoyer.
But also, know this. He is IN NO WAY worth Flacco money. If his agent brings that up even as a joke [or a starting point]in the offseason, he's released and good riddance without a second thought. At best 3 yrs / $20M.
Yes, Manziel sits. He should. But Hoyer's value is not infinite.
Flacco isn't worth Flacco money. The Ravens handing that jackass a contract of that magnitude made me smile from ear to ear.
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