No ‘magic bullet’ in Obama housing relief plan
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hoorta I have a problem with defecit spending, unfortunately I have a bigger problem with us heading into a depression.
The government is acting correctly in being the player who is bigger than business and the market by acting to RESTORE confidence and enact legistlation and funds to stop the FREEFALL.
How much is Iraq and Afghanistan costing us? OVER 2 TRILLION dollars and counting.... over a CRIMINAL ACT LIKE THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING.
We did not act or spend the same way to deal with domestic criminals.... That figure is not even counting the oil inflation due to instability.
The Repblicans and Bush screwed up..... This is just now a massive overcorrection due to their steps toward deregulation of insurance and banking along with a overreaction to 9-11.
At least this is going to be spent domestically and stop yourself the dems want the funds used for materials bought from Domestic companies... Seems pretty smart to me.
You want to have everyone in the nations retirements accounts and 401k destroyed? what would that do..... How would you solve this problem....
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Sev, I can't believe you are comparing 9/11 to the Oklahoma City bombing. That is just crazy. Do you really think the two compare? Give me a break.
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I find it incredulous that lib Dems in Congress wailed about the terrible deficit, but now that
Obama is in there...
"duh... what deficit?"
"who cares, big deal"
"what, me worry?"
"don't worry, be happy"
So, in conclusion, being honest with consistent VALUES went out the window long ago...
Then, "the bad risk poor have a right to buy homes, or you're racist"
Then, "the bad Republicans don't care if you can't pay your mortgages, we'll bail you out"
I find it incredulous that lib Dems in Congress wailed about the terrible deficit, but now that
Obama is in there...
"duh... what deficit?"
"who cares, big deal"
"what, me worry?"
"don't worry, be happy"
So, in conclusion, being honest with consistent VALUES went out the window long ago...
They had to reshuffle their priorities to hedge against heading into another depression.
Maybe this is crazy talk, and I'm just thinking out loud here, but maybe prioritizing spending money on our OWN country to hedge against depression is a TAD different than wildly spending billions of dollars in Iraq to find Dubya Em Deez.
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hoorta I have a problem with defecit spending, unfortunately I have a bigger problem with us heading into a depression.
The government is acting correctly in being the player who is bigger than business and the market by acting to RESTORE confidence and enact legistlation and funds to stop the FREEFALL.
How much is Iraq and Afghanistan costing us? OVER 2 TRILLION dollars and counting.... over a CRIMINAL ACT LIKE THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING.
We did not act or spend the same way to deal with domestic criminals.... That figure is not even counting the oil inflation due to instability.
The Repblicans and Bush screwed up..... This is just now a massive overcorrection due to their steps toward deregulation of insurance and banking along with a overreaction to 9-11.
At least this is going to be spent domestically and stop yourself the dems want the funds used for materials bought from Domestic companies... Seems pretty smart to me.
You want to have everyone in the nations retirements accounts and 401k destroyed? what would that do..... How would you solve this problem....
hoorta I have a problem with defecit spending, unfortunately I have a bigger problem with us heading into a depression.
The government is acting correctly in being the player who is bigger than business and the market by acting to RESTORE confidence and enact legistlation and funds to stop the FREEFALL.
How much is Iraq and Afghanistan costing us? OVER 2 TRILLION dollars and counting.... over a CRIMINAL ACT LIKE THE OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBING.
We did not act or spend the same way to deal with domestic criminals.... That figure is not even counting the oil inflation due to instability.
The Repblicans and Bush screwed up..... This is just now a massive overcorrection due to their steps toward deregulation of insurance and banking along with a overreaction to 9-11.
At least this is going to be spent domestically and stop yourself the dems want the funds used for materials bought from Domestic companies... Seems pretty smart to me.
You want to have everyone in the nations retirements accounts and 401k destroyed? what would that do..... How would you solve this problem....
"Those that don't remember the past are doomed to repeat it." We didn't learn from Vietnam we can't be the world's traffic Cop. I hope Obama's been reading up on what went wrong in the Weimar Republic back in the 1920's.
I'm not an economist. Paul Krugman he of the Nobel Prize in that field- has Obama's full attention. PK seems to think we can spend our way back to prosperity. My gut feeling says he's wrong. Nothing personally I can do about it- we're already heading down that road. Logic tells me what goes for micro economics, holds for macro too. You keep borrowing endlessly, you're going to reach a point where you no longer can afford to make the interest payments on your debt service. And as I said earlier, those US interest payments are the world's 25th biggest economy already. Uncle Sam has his ace in the hole there- his printing press, and right now I don't see any viable alternatives to him cranking it up at warp speed.
T posted that other article about Fannie & Freddie, and the Asian markets aren't biting. We're a debtor nation, and effectively we just got downgraded to junk bond status. Ain't that just special. If China should happen to demand repayment of Uncle Sam's IOUs in hard assets instead of paper, we're dead in the water my friend.
As to there being a real live Depression, I'd put the odds at 50-50, and rising fast- regardless of what Obama & Co. do. Regarding the 401s and retirement accounts, if you're in the Boomer Generation (and put me in that category) they're ALREADY destroyed. Unless there's a miracle economic recovery, anyone within 10 years of retirement will never make up in the potential loss of compounding the amount their funds tanked by- they might get back to where they were- with a little bit extra. If you didn't notice, unless you were totally in cash- it didn't matter what you were invested in- you got seriously spanked. Those just a year or two from retirement that were in 2010 lifecycle funds- which by all rights should have been really conservative, got especially blasted. Those funds lost anywhere from 20 to 30% of their assets. Instead of retiring to Hawaii, they'll have to use Google Earth to take a virtual trip there.
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hoorta you are forgetting one MAJOR thing, WE are the CONSUMER for China, they crash if we crash . The interest and investment into our Country is So they can be a industrial age economy. They are tied to us like Siamese twins and their Government controlled Currency and protectionist laws are why We cant compete with their manufacturing cost or sell anything to them.
Macro international economics between nations dont work like small business or personal micro economics because of nations import/export laws plus currency and market influences between different exchanges.
Yes we are borrowing against ourselves but the 2Trillion dollar cost of the 9-11 decisions along with Republican deregulating the insurance/banking and energy industries did this to us in the first place. Now all of the "conservatives" are up in arms over what their party and Laissez faire principles caused in the first place.
IT IS WITHOUT A DOUBT REPUBLICAN LAISSEZ FAIRE PRINCIPLES AND BUSH OVERREACTION PREDETERMINED IRAQ WAR AGENDA WHICH CAUSED THIS.
Yes Diehard Oklahoma City and 9-11 are the same, criminal organizations/groups made attacks against economic and government targets not NATIONS.
Where is Osama again? Oh thats right Al Qaueda ( a criminal group with religous justification) are still operating and free. Pretty much just like our own Mafia's. You cant kill crime and wage a "war" on a TACTIC. Stupid slogans people buy into. How is the "WAR on drugs" going have we won that war on a commodity yet? Dumb.
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Strongly disagree with your analysis, but opinions are like you know what.
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hoorta you are forgetting one MAJOR thing, WE are the CONSUMER for China, they crash if we crash . The interest and investment into our Country is So they can be a industrial age economy. They are tied to us like Siamese twins and their Government controlled Currency and protectionist laws are why We cant compete with their manufacturing cost or sell anything to them.
Macro international economics between nations dont work like small business or personal micro economics because of nations import/export laws plus currency and market influences between different exchanges.
Yes we are borrowing against ourselves but the 2Trillion dollar cost of the 9-11 decisions along with Republican deregulating the insurance/banking and energy industries did this to us in the first place. Now all of the "conservatives" are up in arms over what their party and Laissez faire principles caused in the first place.
IT IS WITHOUT A DOUBT REPUBLICAN LAISSEZ FAIRE PRINCIPLES AND BUSH OVERREACTION PREDETERMINED IRAQ WAR AGENDA WHICH CAUSED THIS.
Yes Diehard Oklahoma City and 9-11 are the same, criminal organizations/groups made attacks against economic and government targets not NATIONS.
Where is Osama again? Oh thats right Al Qaueda ( a criminal group with religous justification) are still operating and free. Pretty much just like our own Mafia's. You cant kill crime and wage a "war" on a TACTIC. Stupid slogans people buy into. How is the "WAR on drugs" going have we won that war on a commodity yet? Dumb.
hoorta you are forgetting one MAJOR thing, WE are the CONSUMER for China, they crash if we crash . The interest and investment into our Country is So they can be a industrial age economy. They are tied to us like Siamese twins and their Government controlled Currency and protectionist laws are why We cant compete with their manufacturing cost or sell anything to them.
Macro international economics between nations dont work like small business or personal micro economics because of nations import/export laws plus currency and market influences between different exchanges.
Yes we are borrowing against ourselves but the 2Trillion dollar cost of the 9-11 decisions along with Republican deregulating the insurance/banking and energy industries did this to us in the first place. Now all of the "conservatives" are up in arms over what their party and Laissez faire principles caused in the first place.
IT IS WITHOUT A DOUBT REPUBLICAN LAISSEZ FAIRE PRINCIPLES AND BUSH OVERREACTION PREDETERMINED IRAQ WAR AGENDA WHICH CAUSED THIS.
Yes Diehard Oklahoma City and 9-11 are the same, criminal organizations/groups made attacks against economic and government targets not NATIONS.
Where is Osama again? Oh thats right Al Qaueda ( a criminal group with religous justification) are still operating and free. Pretty much just like our own Mafia's. You cant kill crime and wage a "war" on a TACTIC. Stupid slogans people buy into. How is the "WAR on drugs" going have we won that war on a commodity yet? Dumb.
So, who forced the banks to lend money to anyone who could fog a mirror? The Conservatives? Um, no. "Let us put you in a house you can't afford, regardless of your credit rating."
You can't have it both ways- borrowing to finance a war, or borrowing to bail out bad debt is still borrowing. You mean China can't sell their stuff elsewhere? And they won't be nearly as hard hit as the US- they're net exporting, we're sending money overseas as fast as we can print it, and now it's getting to the point we're literally getting bought out by foreign companies with the money we sent them. I'll agree, if the US tanks, we take the rest of the world down with us. It won't be a US depression, it will be a world wide depression- we saw that already with banks in Iceland having trouble.
I could say the housing crash in essence is no different than the infamous tulip bulb crash in Holland way back when, or the Beanie Baby Craze. A commodity got bid up to stupid levels, (with speculators betting there was no end in sight ) and now there's a big correction going on. Har, har- not learning from history? The Tokyo real estate crash wasn't exactly 100 years ago. Put the Japanese economy in the dumper for a decade. That's where we differ- you happen to think the government can fix the problem better than free market forces can.
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NO hoorta I dont think the Government can fix all economic problems than the free market can. In fact beyond competent oversight and regulation ( to safegaurd system collapse) I think the free market is very effective by competition of the strongest to correct weakness in business.
THIS particular problem of special interest and the flawed republican laissez faire ideology unfortunately can not fix itself because they dismantled the oversight and system rules.
Yes there are irresponsible borrowers and lenders, however the backend climate (meaning Wall street and the insurance industries) created an envirement that unless the banks adopted over aggressive product lending they would not survive against the rest of the field.
This was intentional... The problem they did not foresee was 9-11 and Bush's cronies having a Iraq agenda before Bush even was elected. The energy and war sector along with commodities traders pushed for what would benefit them. The end result was the system could not handle BOTH problems simaltaneously and ended up multiplying our economic collapse.
This was not just the deregulation of insurance and banking it was the combo of the Iraq/Afghanistan war/occupation costs and oil/energy deregulation combined with instability of the main energy producing region due to our leaders choice to destroy two nations and then rebuild them somehow.
This problem is now so large that the ONLY answer is to invest in our own system by borrowing against ourselves to find a stop gap measure to stop/slow down foreclosures which is part of the major downgrading of property value and banking credit flow problem.
I do believe healthy competition in a free market enterprise is the BEST way for industry to regulation efficiency and product superiority. The greed factor in business needs to be checked by regulation and competent oversight for the overall good of the system. You can not tell business who have no morality or care for the greater good of the system to regulate themselves.... IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN and all it takes is a few of them to tear everything down.
Diehard that fine we can agree to disagree, be assured my opinion of how to handle those criminals is probably as aggressive as yours.
Personally I think the way Meir handled the Munich olympic kidnapping and subsequent deaths is the way we should have and should handle future similar terror tactic issues from these criminal organizations.
She authorized the Mossad to track down and kill Black september members ANYWHERE. They did not go to war they assasinated anyone associated with that group and the operation.
I have a healthy respect for the Israeli's in general, I dont agree with how they treat the Palestinions nor their expansionist policies but their Military and Mossad tactics and training backed up by a pretty pragmatic government.
Currently it is my opinion that is EXACTLY what we were doing in Iraq... That was responsible for the drop in violence in Iraq not the surge. I think the surge was PR to cover for what brutal assasination tactics we are using on Iraq counter militia heads. Sadr wont come back to Iraq and is hiding in Iran for a reason.
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Clearly politics is ruining this nation. Too many people think you are either with your or against you. I find it amazing that people can object to deficit spending to help prevent a great depression just because it's a democrat's plan, but were perfectly fine with deficit spending to pay for a needless war in somewhat good economic times because it was a republican's plan.
It's possible the reverse could be said, but then again I don't see how anyone could think spending money rebuilding our cumbling infastructure and sharing up the financial sector could be worse than empire building.
:neutral_face: -
lotta back-peddling in here.....
so can we all agree that doing even the wrong thing is better than doing nothing?
lotta back-peddling in here.....
so can we all agree that doing even the wrong thing is better than doing nothing?
Nope.
And it's pretty bad when even Obammy's acolytes can't come up with a better defense of this bill.
And make no mistake; the market has plummeted since Dems took the houses but especially since Obammy has been the frontrunner and winner.
We (Americans) have spent so much negative energy toward a few CEOs who make money when thier businesses fail (not unlike athletes and actors) that we'e cut off our noses to spite our collective face.
WSS
WSS[/b]
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
Clearly politics is ruining this nation. Too many people think you are either with your or against you. I find it amazing that people can object to deficit spending to help prevent a great depression just because it's a democrat's plan, but were perfectly fine with deficit spending to pay for a needless war in somewhat good economic times because it was a republican's plan.
It's possible the reverse could be said, but then again I don't see how anyone could think spending money rebuilding our cumbling infastructure and sharing up the financial sector could be worse than empire building.
I find it amazing that people can object to deficit spending to help prevent a great depression just because it's a democrat's plan, but were perfectly fine with deficit spending to pay for a needless war in somewhat good economic times because it was a republican's plan.
I'd bet my right arm that even the most uneducated, gun-totin' red-stater had a more profound reason for supporting said war than simply "because it's a Republican's plan."
I find it amazing that you could make such an uninformed generalization in an effort to challenge the reason people are opposed to deficit spending.
Breaking News: People are opposed to wasteful spending, not deficit spending.
We've already ponied up the money, yet the newly created position of CPO (Chief Performance Officer) has yet to be filled (after the 1st selection had a bit of tax trouble
.) Total waste. Toss in a newly created "board of high ranking officials" (whatever the fcuk that means) that the CPO is supposed to sit on top of, and you've got a recipe for a family size portion of clusterfcuk.The state assemblies have yet to convene to determine exactly how to spend and monitor this money, and you think it's a matter of Repub. vs. Democrat? Mystifying.
sev has eternally trumpeted the notion that "REPUBLICAN LAISSEZ FAIRE PRINCIPLES" have been the sole responsibility of our current situation. It's possible, but I disagree. However, the stimulus plan of "DEMOCRATIC REWARD TO THE PERSONS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DISASTER" isn't the most effective way of regulate, repair, and reconstruct. Especially when everyone knows the regulate part is just expansion of another inefficient government agency, or creation of an entirely new inefficient government agency. Both are nothing more than dog & pony show's anyway.
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Obama's new low for liberalism means he plans for us to move to a new Socialism by him which is supposed to be a new improved Socialist State never tried before.
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I find it incredulous that lib Dems in Congress wailed about the terrible deficit, but now that
Obama is in there...
"duh... what deficit?"
"who cares, big deal"
"what, me worry?"
"don't worry, be happy"
So, in conclusion, being honest with consistent VALUES went out the window long ago...
They had to reshuffle their priorities to hedge against heading into another depression.
Maybe this is crazy talk, and I'm just thinking out loud here, but maybe prioritizing spending money on our OWN country to hedge against depression is a TAD different than wildly spending billions of dollars in Iraq to find Dubya Em Deez.
They had to reshuffle their priorities to hedge against heading into another depression.
Maybe this is crazy talk, and I'm just thinking out loud here, but maybe prioritizing spending money on our OWN country to hedge against depression is a TAD different than wildly spending billions of dollars in Iraq to find Dubya Em Deez.
Well put. Very well put.
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lotta back-peddling in here.....
so can we all agree that doing even the wrong thing is better than doing nothing?
Nope.
And it's pretty bad when even Obammy's acolytes can't come up with a better defense of this bill.
And make no mistake; the market has plummeted since Dems took the houses but especially since Obammy has been the frontrunner and winner.
We (Americans) have spent so much negative energy toward a few CEOs who make money when thier businesses fail (not unlike athletes and actors) that we'e cut off our noses to spite our collective face.
WSS
WSS[/b]
Nope.
And it's pretty bad when even Obammy's acolytes can't come up with a better defense of this bill.
And make no mistake; the market has plummeted since Dems took the houses but especially since Obammy has been the frontrunner and winner.
We (Americans) have spent so much negative energy toward a few CEOs who make money when thier businesses fail (not unlike athletes and actors) that we'e cut off our noses to spite our collective face.
WSS
WSS[/b]
LOL, I really find it quite compelling that people forget what happened before Obama took office.
I wonder if there should be a study on how siding with a particular party will in fact have people subconsciously remember what they want to. That would be very interesting. Dude, please research before sounding like an idiot again. December 5th, the Dow was at 7,550 and at that point had the greatest volume decrease in history. Yes before Obama was in office.
Please look at our country objectively people, you are going to ruin it.
Luck is Tim Couch. Big, Dumb Goofy, slow thinking QB - Ghoolie, 2-28-12 -
Nope.
And it's pretty bad when even Obammy's acolytes can't come up with a better defense of this bill.
And make no mistake; the market has plummeted since Dems took the houses but especially since Obammy has been the frontrunner and winner.
We (Americans) have spent so much negative energy toward a few CEOs who make money when thier businesses fail (not unlike athletes and actors) that we'e cut off our noses to spite our collective face.
WSS
WSS[/b]
LOL, I really find it quite compelling that people forget what happened before Obama took office.
I wonder if there should be a study on how siding with a particular party will in fact have people subconsciously remember what they want to. That would be very interesting. Dude, please research before sounding like an idiot again. December 5th, the Dow was at 7,550 and at that point had the greatest volume decrease in history. Yes before Obama was in office.
Please look at our country objectively people, you are going to ruin it.
LOL, I really find it quite compelling that people forget what happened before Obama took office.
I wonder if there should be a study on how siding with a particular party will in fact have people subconsciously remember what they want to. That would be very interesting. Dude, please research before sounding like an idiot again. December 5th, the Dow was at 7,550 and at that point had the greatest volume decrease in history. Yes before Obama was in office.
Please look at our country objectively people, you are going to ruin it.
I believe Steve said "front-runner & winner" not in office. So he would be correct.
Reading comprehension: look into it.
Sure, luck means a lot in football. Not having a good quarterback is bad luck. -Don Shula -
LOL, I really find it quite compelling that people forget what happened before Obama took office.
I wonder if there should be a study on how siding with a particular party will in fact have people subconsciously remember what they want to. That would be very interesting. Dude, please research before sounding like an idiot again. December 5th, the Dow was at 7,550 and at that point had the greatest volume decrease in history. Yes before Obama was in office.
Please look at our country objectively people, you are going to ruin it.
I believe Steve said "front-runner & winner" not in office. So he would be correct.
Reading comprehension: look into it.
I believe Steve said "front-runner & winner" not in office. So he would be correct.
Reading comprehension: look into it.
It is a fine thing indeed.
Not to mention the fact that Dems have been yapping all along about the deficit projection under Bill Clinton.
I'd point out that Bill had a Republican house and senate to keep him on track.
Also that we did not elect Clinton or any other moderate DLC Dem this time.
And the deficit hawks no longer have a place at the table.
(nor do the bipartisan gang or the accountability faction or the personal responsibility, uh, herd)
WSS
www.westsidesteve.com www.myspace.com/westsidestevemusic www.cdbaby.com/artist/westsidestevesimmons -
LOL, I really find it quite compelling that people forget what happened before Obama took office.
I wonder if there should be a study on how siding with a particular party will in fact have people subconsciously remember what they want to. That would be very interesting. Dude, please research before sounding like an idiot again. December 5th, the Dow was at 7,550 and at that point had the greatest volume decrease in history. Yes before Obama was in office.
Please look at our country objectively people, you are going to ruin it.
I believe Steve said "front-runner & winner" not in office. So he would be correct.
Reading comprehension: look into it.
I believe Steve said "front-runner & winner" not in office. So he would be correct.
Reading comprehension: look into it.
Awwww, your noble efforts to stick up for your boyfriend is lovable and cute. LOL, "front-runner and winner" applies to that he WON, right? Wouldn't winner suggest he WON the election? And front-runner of what? When he was the "front-runner" he had no control over what was going on during Bush's watch. LOL, so cute.
The point is that the crisis started well before even Bush was in office. When Clinton was in office, the Republicans lost a few seats in the House and gained a few in the Senate, but overall retained control of the Congress. Deregulation of home loans started then, not when "Obammy was the front-runner and winner". We can all agree the deregulation of home loans started this mess. It's everyone's fault Republican, Democrats, Presidents, and Congress.
Congress is now giving a hand out to the people who in turn, were given these loans they couldn't afford, by that same group of people. It's like their playing Monopoly. I think they feel guilty, NOT.
Luck is Tim Couch. Big, Dumb Goofy, slow thinking QB - Ghoolie, 2-28-12 -
I believe Steve said "front-runner & winner" not in office. So he would be correct.
Reading comprehension: look into it.
It is a fine thing indeed.
Not to mention the fact that Dems have been yapping all along about the deficit projection under Bill Clinton.
I'd point out that Bill had a Republican house and senate to keep him on track.
Also that we did not elect Clinton or any other moderate DLC Dem this time.
And the deficit hawks no longer have a place at the table.
(nor do the bipartisan gang or the accountability faction or the personal responsibility, uh, herd)
WSS
It is a fine thing indeed.
Not to mention the fact that Dems have been yapping all along about the deficit projection under Bill Clinton.
I'd point out that Bill had a Republican house and senate to keep him on track.
Also that we did not elect Clinton or any other moderate DLC Dem this time.
And the deficit hawks no longer have a place at the table.
(nor do the bipartisan gang or the accountability faction or the personal responsibility, uh, herd)
WSS
Republican house to keep him on track? They are all to blame.
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Legacy I dont think Laissez faire principles are the sole causation of our current predicament. It is certainly a important Factor but the war and rebuilding in two nations in the middle east (oil) is one HUGE factor.
We dont know how an Obama white house will administer yet... or how inefficient or efficient they can be. Judging by their primary and presidential campaigns they are a efficiency monster. Than again that is not working with a self serving combative congress and multiple federal and state agencies.
I started in the thread because of some flawed purely politicized concepts of the stimulas package spending "our money"... This problem is too large now that unless government steps in we are going to economically crash into a major depression. Investing from our own credit basically to save ourselves is the ONLY tool that is left. Its not like we have choices anymore.
The combo from the overreaction to 9-11 war in two countries and subseqeunt rebuilding efforts along with attempting to keep stability in the richest energy producing region combined with deregulated overaggressive insurance/securities products was too much for ANY economy to handle.
2 trillion and counting from the Iraq/afghanistan is a MAJOR economic drain.... imagine that money being spent HERE.... we would not be in the position we are in.
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