All of us Hoyer backers should admit one thing...
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Thats my point..
You can bring examples for both sides..
So why would you automatically start out from the negative point of view for the Browns 1st rd QB we traded up to get and say he cannot do what those other 5 RECENT Qb's did.. as opposed to being POSITIVE and saying he can?
Doesnt make sense
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Thats my point..
You can bring examples for both sides..
So why would you automatically start out from the negative point of view for the Browns 1st rd QB we traded up to get and say he cannot do what those other 5 RECENT Qb's did.. as opposed to being POSITIVE and saying he can?
Doesnt make sense
Thats my point..
You can bring examples for both sides..
So why would you automatically start out from the negative point of view for the Browns 1st rd QB we traded up to get and say he cannot do what those other 5 RECENT Qb's did.. as opposed to being POSITIVE and saying he can?
Doesnt make sense
I don't get what you're trying to say. He could come in and light the world in fire or he could come in and play like a turd. I hope if he has to come in he does the former, but I don't expect him to come in for a while yet...
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I don't think for a moment that their record would be better if JFF had been playing. Sipe....err, I mean Hoyer has that intangible about him that gets his team wins. JFF may have had that in college.....but he may have just been like Crash Davis.....one of the best minor league performers of all time....but not good enough for the majors. Yes, that is speculation.
And it is not "Johnny hate"...it is merely skepticism....not that we think he is bad, its just that he is an unknown commodity....and a rookie, so we are not going to invest ourselves in him yet til he can prove it.....and FYI, we ALL had Televisions and could watch Johnny play most of his games. Just like we watched all the other good college QBs that went bust.....and those that didn't.
We are not Kool-Aid drinkers here, even if you are.
If we can all agree to wait and see about Johnny then I would be satisfied. Not all of you are Johnny haters but its the ones that say he will be a bust based purely off of past quarterbacks and his off the field issues, not at all on his play. And I would be willing to bet that the majority of you didn't watch more than a couple of games of Johnny's. I may very well be drinking the Kool-Aid just as Baylor fans do with RG3 or Texas fans did with Vince Young but I am trying to be fair with Johnny and with Hoyer. If Hoyer plays well the last 5 games then I think the Browns should sign him to a reasonable extension and he should be the starter going into training camp next year. But based on what I have seen I don't think that will happen.
If we can all agree to wait and see about Johnny then I would be satisfied.
Well, that is what most of us want.....to wait and see about him. For many JFF fanboys that isn't enough.
Not all of you are Johnny haters but its the ones that say he will be a bust based purely off of past quarterbacks and his off the field issues, not at all on his play.
I don't say he will be a bust based on his play or on his off field issues. I say there is 50/50 chance he could be a bust simply because statistics of the last 50 years say that is the fate of first round QBs.
And I would be willing to bet that the majority of you didn't watch more than a couple of games of Johnny's.
He was on TV around here about every week for two years due to his national renown. Why would you think we would not have seen him...unless you are saying Browns fans don't watch college football?
I may very well be drinking the Kool-Aid just as Baylor fans do with RG3 or Texas fans did with Vince Young but I am trying to be fair with Johnny and with Hoyer. If Hoyer plays well the last 5 games then I think the Browns should sign him to a reasonable extension and he should be the starter going into training camp next year. But based on what I have seen I don't think that will happen.
What you have seen is a 7-4 record. That is called winning. We haven't seen much of it out of any other QB around here for a long time. Maybe you are too busy watching reruns of Johnny's college years to see what the Cleveland Browns are doing. They are winning. Has Hoyer been perfect? No....but we only needed him to be perfect for 44 seconds Sunday. And that was enough. We now believe based on that and other actions this year that he can win. We don't know that about JTMZ.
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Of course if you buy into the fact that Brian Hoyer is the hardest working player on the team it's a little disappointing since this is the best you can expect. And we will need better to go to the next level in my opinion. I was kind of hoping he had a little upside left, weren't you guys?
People said that Colt McCoy and Charlie Frye worked hard. And you guys hate them.
(not to mention Tim Tebow)
WSS
Of course if you buy into the fact that Brian Hoyer is the hardest working player on the team it's a little disappointing since this is the best you can expect. And we will need better to go to the next level in my opinion. I was kind of hoping he had a little upside left, weren't you guys?
People said that Colt McCoy and Charlie Frye worked hard. And you guys hate them.
(not to mention Tim Tebow)
WSS
I think the upside we need to see is pretty simple: a better completion pct. ...which I believe is entirely possible because he can be so spot on so often that it makes your head scratch when he is off target. Also, no more swallowing ostrich eggs like on that pass in the end zone that.....you know....got me going crazy.
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There are several points that I still dispute.
Number 1 is the fact that Hoyer definitely worked harder in the off season. Just because he won the job doesn't mean that he worked harder. Their preseason numbers were very close and that is with Hoyer being in the NFL for several seasons and Johnny for a couple of months. And honestly Hoyer hasn't really improved on his play from the preseason to now. If this is the best Hoyer can give you with all the hard work he puts in then maybe he just isn't very good. And you keep saying how Hoyer can look so good in stretches. Every quarterback looks good in stretches, that's why they are in the NFL.
Number 2 is the need to continue to compare Johnny to past quarterbacks. I get it. A lot of 1st rounders are bust. But that has nothing to do with Johnny. If most of you really have a wait and see attitude why not be more optimistic and say Johnny could be a Russell Wilson or Andrew Luck. I know college isn't the NFL but based on stats and eye test Johnny is not Brady Quinn or Brandon Weeden. He is an all time great in college and that has to count for something. Tebow and Vince young were as well but they clearly had limitations with there arm that Johnny doesn't have.
Number 3 is the defending of Hoyer based on the record. I know 7-4 is great but field goal after field goal when they start with good field position keeps happening. The bad throws and poor play for stretches of the game keep happening. I think if Johnny played last game they score on at least one of the drives that they had to settle for a field goal. So I actually do believe that we could be 7-4 with Johnny starting. Why do you want good enough when it comes to your quarterback? Don't you want a quarterback who you can count on for a whole game? Do you honestly feel confident about Hoyer going into New England and winning a playoff game? I'm not saying Johnny could win that game but I know for certain Hoyer isn't going to. What good team has he beaten other than Pittsburgh. I know you play who is on your schedule but we have played the worst schedule in football. I wan't to know how Hoyer is any different than Tebow who finished the 2010 season 7-4 and beat Pittsburgh in the playoffs. His numbers weren't very good but he found ways to win. Ultimately though he wasn't a very good quarterback.
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No we would not be 7-4 with Johhny starting. We'd be lucky to be 4-7. For now, Hoyers superiority in running the offense vs Johhny is unquestionable. Don't forget we're talking not just about making passes, we're talking about setting protection..reading defense's etc, etc. Yes...there are absolutely some plays left out there this season that Manziel could have made...and they would have had us all turgid. For that one play. I know you Johhny guys don't want to hear this, but the vast majority of this season has been Hoyers ability to stand in the pocket and make important throws with guys barreling into him. I know he's made some shit throws, it's like his accuracy increases 1000% when there's a guy trying to finger him...I don't understand it. His bad throws in a completely clean pocket are startling at times. But the throws that he has made, a lot of em are throws that Johhny wouldn't have made cause he would have bailed out of the pocket 1.5s prior. And that's RG syndrome.
That can go away though..no question. But it takes time. Manziel was not a cerebral qb in College...he's not Andrew Luck. He's the next Brett Farve that has to learn "precisely when" to bail and not to bail. Roethlisberger is a god at this. Pocket reads first...than extend. But it's also "how" you bail out of the pocket to extend plays. It's incredibly nuanced and none of us can completely grasp it unless you were in that situation with 1 or 2 or 3 extremely large and powerful individuals are coming for your ass while you have to keep eyes downfield and know "exactly" where your guys are going to be and where they "can be" given where you're about to drift out of the pocket. It's an incredible skills set that takes time.
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No we would not be 7-4 with Johhny starting. We'd be lucky to be 4-7. For now, Hoyers superiority in running the offense vs Johhny is unquestionable. Don't forget we're talking not just about making passes, we're talking about setting protection..reading defense's etc, etc. Yes...there are absolutely some plays left out there this season that Manziel could have made...and they would have had us all turgid. For that one play. I know you Johhny guys don't want to hear this, but the vast majority of this season has been Hoyers ability to stand in the pocket and make important throws with guys barreling into him. I know he's made some shit throws, it's like his accuracy increases 1000% when there's a guy trying to finger him...I don't understand it. His bad throws in a completely clean pocket are startling at times. But the throws that he has made, a lot of em are throws that Johhny wouldn't have made cause he would have bailed out of the pocket 1.5s prior. And that's RG syndrome.
That can go away though..no question. But it takes time. Manziel was not a cerebral qb in College...he's not Andrew Luck. He's the next Brett Farve that has to learn "precisely when" to bail and not to bail. Roethlisberger is a god at this. Pocket reads first...than extend. But it's also "how" you bail out of the pocket to extend plays. It's incredibly nuanced and none of us can completely grasp it unless you were in that situation with 1 or 2 or 3 extremely large and powerful individuals are coming for your ass while you have to keep eyes downfield and know "exactly" where your guys are going to be and where they "can be" given where you're about to drift out of the pocket. It's an incredible skills set that takes time.
No we would not be 7-4 with Johhny starting. We'd be lucky to be 4-7. For now, Hoyers superiority in running the offense vs Johhny is unquestionable. Don't forget we're talking not just about making passes, we're talking about setting protection..reading defense's etc, etc. Yes...there are absolutely some plays left out there this season that Manziel could have made...and they would have had us all turgid. For that one play. I know you Johhny guys don't want to hear this, but the vast majority of this season has been Hoyers ability to stand in the pocket and make important throws with guys barreling into him. I know he's made some shit throws, it's like his accuracy increases 1000% when there's a guy trying to finger him...I don't understand it. His bad throws in a completely clean pocket are startling at times. But the throws that he has made, a lot of em are throws that Johhny wouldn't have made cause he would have bailed out of the pocket 1.5s prior. And that's RG syndrome.
That can go away though..no question. But it takes time. Manziel was not a cerebral qb in College...he's not Andrew Luck. He's the next Brett Farve that has to learn "precisely when" to bail and not to bail. Roethlisberger is a god at this. Pocket reads first...than extend. But it's also "how" you bail out of the pocket to extend plays. It's incredibly nuanced and none of us can completely grasp it unless you were in that situation with 1 or 2 or 3 extremely large and powerful individuals are coming for your ass while you have to keep eyes downfield and know "exactly" where your guys are going to be and where they "can be" given where you're about to drift out of the pocket. It's an incredible skills set that takes time.
Johnny's first year he would look at his first option then take off. But his second year he was the best pocket passer in the country. He rarely threw into coverage or missed throws. And Manziel was the best I have ever seen at knowing when to run, at least in college. For sure he has a lot to learn but I don't see why you don't think Johnny couldn't have taken this team to 7-4. Johnny couldn't have played worse than Hoyer in at least 6 or 7 games. Most of Hoyer's game winning drives shouldn't have been needed in the first place. How do you excuse field goal after field goal against terrible defenses? Hoyer played one really good game against Pittsburgh and if he would have continued to play that way I would have a different opinion.
And when you say Johnny would have taken off why is that a negative? Anytime I hear people talk about his running ability it's either that he will get hurt running in the NFL or it's just highlight plays. But his running wins games. Why is a ten yard completion from Hoyer any different then a ten yard run from Johnny. When talking Johnny vs Hoyer most of you leave Johnny's running completely out of it. You might say Johnny is more athletic but his running is so much more than a side show. It's what made all of you watch him. It's what kept Coaches up at night. It's what beat Alabama. Hoyer has 4 rushing yards the whole season. Johnny would average that.
I get that I sound like a fan boy but I watch just as much football as all of you, NFL and college, and I really have never seen anything like Johnny. I'm not guaranteeing his success by any means but my opinion is that if Hoyer remains the starter this year or next because the Browns are 7-4 they are making a mistake.
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There are several points that I still dispute.
Number 1 is the fact that Hoyer definitely worked harder in the off season. Just because he won the job doesn't mean that he worked harder. Their preseason numbers were very close and that is with Hoyer being in the NFL for several seasons and Johnny for a couple of months. And honestly Hoyer hasn't really improved on his play from the preseason to now. If this is the best Hoyer can give you with all the hard work he puts in then maybe he just isn't very good. And you keep saying how Hoyer can look so good in stretches. Every quarterback looks good in stretches, that's why they are in the NFL.
Number 2 is the need to continue to compare Johnny to past quarterbacks. I get it. A lot of 1st rounders are bust. But that has nothing to do with Johnny. If most of you really have a wait and see attitude why not be more optimistic and say Johnny could be a Russell Wilson or Andrew Luck. I know college isn't the NFL but based on stats and eye test Johnny is not Brady Quinn or Brandon Weeden. He is an all time great in college and that has to count for something. Tebow and Vince young were as well but they clearly had limitations with there arm that Johnny doesn't have.
Number 3 is the defending of Hoyer based on the record. I know 7-4 is great but field goal after field goal when they start with good field position keeps happening. The bad throws and poor play for stretches of the game keep happening. I think if Johnny played last game they score on at least one of the drives that they had to settle for a field goal. So I actually do believe that we could be 7-4 with Johnny starting. Why do you want good enough when it comes to your quarterback? Don't you want a quarterback who you can count on for a whole game? Do you honestly feel confident about Hoyer going into New England and winning a playoff game? I'm not saying Johnny could win that game but I know for certain Hoyer isn't going to. What good team has he beaten other than Pittsburgh. I know you play who is on your schedule but we have played the worst schedule in football. I wan't to know how Hoyer is any different than Tebow who finished the 2010 season 7-4 and beat Pittsburgh in the playoffs. His numbers weren't very good but he found ways to win. Ultimately though he wasn't a very good quarterback.
There are several points that I still dispute.
Number 1 is the fact that Hoyer definitely worked harder in the off season. Just because he won the job doesn't mean that he worked harder. Their preseason numbers were very close and that is with Hoyer being in the NFL for several seasons and Johnny for a couple of months. And honestly Hoyer hasn't really improved on his play from the preseason to now. If this is the best Hoyer can give you with all the hard work he puts in then maybe he just isn't very good. And you keep saying how Hoyer can look so good in stretches. Every quarterback looks good in stretches, that's why they are in the NFL.
Number 2 is the need to continue to compare Johnny to past quarterbacks. I get it. A lot of 1st rounders are bust. But that has nothing to do with Johnny. If most of you really have a wait and see attitude why not be more optimistic and say Johnny could be a Russell Wilson or Andrew Luck. I know college isn't the NFL but based on stats and eye test Johnny is not Brady Quinn or Brandon Weeden. He is an all time great in college and that has to count for something. Tebow and Vince young were as well but they clearly had limitations with there arm that Johnny doesn't have.
Number 3 is the defending of Hoyer based on the record. I know 7-4 is great but field goal after field goal when they start with good field position keeps happening. The bad throws and poor play for stretches of the game keep happening. I think if Johnny played last game they score on at least one of the drives that they had to settle for a field goal. So I actually do believe that we could be 7-4 with Johnny starting. Why do you want good enough when it comes to your quarterback? Don't you want a quarterback who you can count on for a whole game? Do you honestly feel confident about Hoyer going into New England and winning a playoff game? I'm not saying Johnny could win that game but I know for certain Hoyer isn't going to. What good team has he beaten other than Pittsburgh. I know you play who is on your schedule but we have played the worst schedule in football. I wan't to know how Hoyer is any different than Tebow who finished the 2010 season 7-4 and beat Pittsburgh in the playoffs. His numbers weren't very good but he found ways to win. Ultimately though he wasn't a very good quarterback.
More Blind Faith. Leave that shit to Steve Winwood and Eric Clapton.
Our Cavaliers announcers has a famous saying: "Don't bring that weak stuff in here". All you got are Blind Faith arguments. Why don't you just shut the fuck up until you have some evidence to bring to the table. Wait til the boy actually gets in there and does something worthy of talking about other than your wishing and hoping. Maybe Blind Faith is the wrong reference. More like Dusty Springfield.
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No we would not be 7-4 with Johhny starting. We'd be lucky to be 4-7. For now, Hoyers superiority in running the offense vs Johhny is unquestionable. Don't forget we're talking not just about making passes, we're talking about setting protection..reading defense's etc, etc. Yes...there are absolutely some plays left out there this season that Manziel could have made...and they would have had us all turgid. For that one play. I know you Johhny guys don't want to hear this, but the vast majority of this season has been Hoyers ability to stand in the pocket and make important throws with guys barreling into him. I know he's made some shit throws, it's like his accuracy increases 1000% when there's a guy trying to finger him...I don't understand it. His bad throws in a completely clean pocket are startling at times. But the throws that he has made, a lot of em are throws that Johhny wouldn't have made cause he would have bailed out of the pocket 1.5s prior. And that's RG syndrome.
That can go away though..no question. But it takes time. Manziel was not a cerebral qb in College...he's not Andrew Luck. He's the next Brett Farve that has to learn "precisely when" to bail and not to bail. Roethlisberger is a god at this. Pocket reads first...than extend. But it's also "how" you bail out of the pocket to extend plays. It's incredibly nuanced and none of us can completely grasp it unless you were in that situation with 1 or 2 or 3 extremely large and powerful individuals are coming for your ass while you have to keep eyes downfield and know "exactly" where your guys are going to be and where they "can be" given where you're about to drift out of the pocket. It's an incredible skills set that takes time.
Exactly why I loathe Toothlessburger, but that bastard can extend a play better than any other QB (except maybe Tarkenton).No we would not be 7-4 with Johhny starting. We'd be lucky to be 4-7. For now, Hoyers superiority in running the offense vs Johhny is unquestionable. Don't forget we're talking not just about making passes, we're talking about setting protection..reading defense's etc, etc. Yes...there are absolutely some plays left out there this season that Manziel could have made...and they would have had us all turgid. For that one play. I know you Johhny guys don't want to hear this, but the vast majority of this season has been Hoyers ability to stand in the pocket and make important throws with guys barreling into him. I know he's made some shit throws, it's like his accuracy increases 1000% when there's a guy trying to finger him...I don't understand it. His bad throws in a completely clean pocket are startling at times. But the throws that he has made, a lot of em are throws that Johhny wouldn't have made cause he would have bailed out of the pocket 1.5s prior. And that's RG syndrome.
That can go away though..no question. But it takes time. Manziel was not a cerebral qb in College...he's not Andrew Luck. He's the next Brett Farve that has to learn "precisely when" to bail and not to bail. Roethlisberger is a god at this. Pocket reads first...than extend. But it's also "how" you bail out of the pocket to extend plays. It's incredibly nuanced and none of us can completely grasp it unless you were in that situation with 1 or 2 or 3 extremely large and powerful individuals are coming for your ass while you have to keep eyes downfield and know "exactly" where your guys are going to be and where they "can be" given where you're about to drift out of the pocket. It's an incredible skills set that takes time.
That is a talent that really can't be coached. The QB either has it, or he doesn't.
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No we would not be 7-4 with Johhny starting. We'd be lucky to be 4-7. For now, Hoyers superiority in running the offense vs Johhny is unquestionable. Don't forget we're talking not just about making passes, we're talking about setting protection..reading defense's etc, etc. Yes...there are absolutely some plays left out there this season that Manziel could have made...and they would have had us all turgid. For that one play. I know you Johhny guys don't want to hear this, but the vast majority of this season has been Hoyers ability to stand in the pocket and make important throws with guys barreling into him. I know he's made some shit throws, it's like his accuracy increases 1000% when there's a guy trying to finger him...I don't understand it. His bad throws in a completely clean pocket are startling at times. But the throws that he has made, a lot of em are throws that Johhny wouldn't have made cause he would have bailed out of the pocket 1.5s prior. And that's RG syndrome.
That can go away though..no question. But it takes time. Manziel was not a cerebral qb in College...he's not Andrew Luck. He's the next Brett Farve that has to learn "precisely when" to bail and not to bail. Roethlisberger is a god at this. Pocket reads first...than extend. But it's also "how" you bail out of the pocket to extend plays. It's incredibly nuanced and none of us can completely grasp it unless you were in that situation with 1 or 2 or 3 extremely large and powerful individuals are coming for your ass while you have to keep eyes downfield and know "exactly" where your guys are going to be and where they "can be" given where you're about to drift out of the pocket. It's an incredible skills set that takes time.
Johnny's first year he would look at his first option then take off. But his second year he was the best pocket passer in the country. He rarely threw into coverage or missed throws. And Manziel was the best I have ever seen at knowing when to run, at least in college. For sure he has a lot to learn but I don't see why you don't think Johnny couldn't have taken this team to 7-4. Johnny couldn't have played worse than Hoyer in at least 6 or 7 games. Most of Hoyer's game winning drives shouldn't have been needed in the first place. How do you excuse field goal after field goal against terrible defenses? Hoyer played one really good game against Pittsburgh and if he would have continued to play that way I would have a different opinion.
And when you say Johnny would have taken off why is that a negative? Anytime I hear people talk about his running ability it's either that he will get hurt running in the NFL or it's just highlight plays. But his running wins games. Why is a ten yard completion from Hoyer any different then a ten yard run from Johnny. When talking Johnny vs Hoyer most of you leave Johnny's running completely out of it. You might say Johnny is more athletic but his running is so much more than a side show. It's what made all of you watch him. It's what kept Coaches up at night. It's what beat Alabama. Hoyer has 4 rushing yards the whole season. Johnny would average that.
I get that I sound like a fan boy but I watch just as much football as all of you, NFL and college, and I really have never seen anything like Johnny. I'm not guaranteeing his success by any means but my opinion is that if Hoyer remains the starter this year or next because the Browns are 7-4 they are making a mistake.
Johnny's first year he would look at his first option then take off. But his second year he was the best pocket passer in the country. He rarely threw into coverage or missed throws. And Manziel was the best I have ever seen at knowing when to run, at least in college. For sure he has a lot to learn but I don't see why you don't think Johnny couldn't have taken this team to 7-4. Johnny couldn't have played worse than Hoyer in at least 6 or 7 games. Most of Hoyer's game winning drives shouldn't have been needed in the first place. How do you excuse field goal after field goal against terrible defenses? Hoyer played one really good game against Pittsburgh and if he would have continued to play that way I would have a different opinion.
And when you say Johnny would have taken off why is that a negative? Anytime I hear people talk about his running ability it's either that he will get hurt running in the NFL or it's just highlight plays. But his running wins games. Why is a ten yard completion from Hoyer any different then a ten yard run from Johnny. When talking Johnny vs Hoyer most of you leave Johnny's running completely out of it. You might say Johnny is more athletic but his running is so much more than a side show. It's what made all of you watch him. It's what kept Coaches up at night. It's what beat Alabama. Hoyer has 4 rushing yards the whole season. Johnny would average that.
I get that I sound like a fan boy but I watch just as much football as all of you, NFL and college, and I really have never seen anything like Johnny. I'm not guaranteeing his success by any means but my opinion is that if Hoyer remains the starter this year or next because the Browns are 7-4 they are making a mistake.
There are no old running QB's in the NFL - Sam Rutigliano
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Exactly why I loathe Toothlessburger, but that bastard can extend a play better than any other QB (except maybe Tarkenton).No we would not be 7-4 with Johhny starting. We'd be lucky to be 4-7. For now, Hoyers superiority in running the offense vs Johhny is unquestionable. Don't forget we're talking not just about making passes, we're talking about setting protection..reading defense's etc, etc. Yes...there are absolutely some plays left out there this season that Manziel could have made...and they would have had us all turgid. For that one play. I know you Johhny guys don't want to hear this, but the vast majority of this season has been Hoyers ability to stand in the pocket and make important throws with guys barreling into him. I know he's made some shit throws, it's like his accuracy increases 1000% when there's a guy trying to finger him...I don't understand it. His bad throws in a completely clean pocket are startling at times. But the throws that he has made, a lot of em are throws that Johhny wouldn't have made cause he would have bailed out of the pocket 1.5s prior. And that's RG syndrome.
That can go away though..no question. But it takes time. Manziel was not a cerebral qb in College...he's not Andrew Luck. He's the next Brett Farve that has to learn "precisely when" to bail and not to bail. Roethlisberger is a god at this. Pocket reads first...than extend. But it's also "how" you bail out of the pocket to extend plays. It's incredibly nuanced and none of us can completely grasp it unless you were in that situation with 1 or 2 or 3 extremely large and powerful individuals are coming for your ass while you have to keep eyes downfield and know "exactly" where your guys are going to be and where they "can be" given where you're about to drift out of the pocket. It's an incredible skills set that takes time.
That is a talent that really can't be coached. The QB either has it, or he doesn't.
Exactly why I loathe Toothlessburger, but that bastard can extend a play better than any other QB (except maybe Tarkenton).
That is a talent that really can't be coached. The QB either has it, or he doesn't.
I love watching Tarkenton videos, just wish the footage was of a little bit higher quality.
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No we would not be 7-4 with Johhny starting. We'd be lucky to be 4-7. For now, Hoyers superiority in running the offense vs Johhny is unquestionable. Don't forget we're talking not just about making passes, we're talking about setting protection..reading defense's etc, etc. Yes...there are absolutely some plays left out there this season that Manziel could have made...and they would have had us all turgid. For that one play. I know you Johhny guys don't want to hear this, but the vast majority of this season has been Hoyers ability to stand in the pocket and make important throws with guys barreling into him. I know he's made some shit throws, it's like his accuracy increases 1000% when there's a guy trying to finger him...I don't understand it. His bad throws in a completely clean pocket are startling at times. But the throws that he has made, a lot of em are throws that Johhny wouldn't have made cause he would have bailed out of the pocket 1.5s prior. And that's RG syndrome.
That can go away though..no question. But it takes time. Manziel was not a cerebral qb in College...he's not Andrew Luck. He's the next Brett Farve that has to learn "precisely when" to bail and not to bail. Roethlisberger is a god at this. Pocket reads first...than extend. But it's also "how" you bail out of the pocket to extend plays. It's incredibly nuanced and none of us can completely grasp it unless you were in that situation with 1 or 2 or 3 extremely large and powerful individuals are coming for your ass while you have to keep eyes downfield and know "exactly" where your guys are going to be and where they "can be" given where you're about to drift out of the pocket. It's an incredible skills set that takes time.
Johnny's first year he would look at his first option then take off. But his second year he was the best pocket passer in the country. He rarely threw into coverage or missed throws. And Manziel was the best I have ever seen at knowing when to run, at least in college. For sure he has a lot to learn but I don't see why you don't think Johnny couldn't have taken this team to 7-4. Johnny couldn't have played worse than Hoyer in at least 6 or 7 games. Most of Hoyer's game winning drives shouldn't have been needed in the first place. How do you excuse field goal after field goal against terrible defenses? Hoyer played one really good game against Pittsburgh and if he would have continued to play that way I would have a different opinion.
And when you say Johnny would have taken off why is that a negative? Anytime I hear people talk about his running ability it's either that he will get hurt running in the NFL or it's just highlight plays. But his running wins games. Why is a ten yard completion from Hoyer any different then a ten yard run from Johnny. When talking Johnny vs Hoyer most of you leave Johnny's running completely out of it. You might say Johnny is more athletic but his running is so much more than a side show. It's what made all of you watch him. It's what kept Coaches up at night. It's what beat Alabama. Hoyer has 4 rushing yards the whole season. Johnny would average that.
I get that I sound like a fan boy but I watch just as much football as all of you, NFL and college, and I really have never seen anything like Johnny. I'm not guaranteeing his success by any means but my opinion is that if Hoyer remains the starter this year or next because the Browns are 7-4 they are making a mistake.
First off let me state that nothing you have said warrants anyone telling you to STFU. You have an opinion and at least from what I've seen you're not a dick about it and you bring up valid points.
Now, as to your points...like I said they're valid. But it was college. He showed in preseason that things were a little overwhelming for him. And Shanny's system is complicated apparently. There's things going on in NFL offense's that don't look complicated to us...but are. Especially at sunday game speed. All there is to it. I too want JM to take over this team, I just don't want him to do it soon. Here in Cleveland we have a habit of throwing draft picks out there behind center on day one and it ends up "ruining" them. I honestly think had we started Johnny he'd have been run out of the city by now cause he'd have made some awesome plays but our record would suck and everybody knows Cleveland fans live SUnday to SUnday. Like I have no doubt there were people calling for Pettine's job after the Houston loss. No question. There were people calling for his job after our preseason losses.....inconceivable. There's just no way that Johnny is ready this year to run a complex offense. A lot of things would have to be trimmed out of the playbook and it would make our offense less potent. Athletically, yes he would give opposing teams something else to think about. Perhaps it would work against one team. But like we see when other backups come into the game and do so freakin well that the fanbase is calling for them to be the starter....eventually teams prepare for them and then it's back to reality. Teams would solve Johnny pretty quick without an offense designed for him that he has time under center with. It may not even happen next year.
Johnny's first year he would look at his first option then take off. But his second year he was the best pocket passer in the country. He rarely threw into coverage or missed throws. And Manziel was the best I have ever seen at knowing when to run, at least in college. For sure he has a lot to learn but I don't see why you don't think Johnny couldn't have taken this team to 7-4. Johnny couldn't have played worse than Hoyer in at least 6 or 7 games. Most of Hoyer's game winning drives shouldn't have been needed in the first place. How do you excuse field goal after field goal against terrible defenses? Hoyer played one really good game against Pittsburgh and if he would have continued to play that way I would have a different opinion.
And when you say Johnny would have taken off why is that a negative? Anytime I hear people talk about his running ability it's either that he will get hurt running in the NFL or it's just highlight plays. But his running wins games. Why is a ten yard completion from Hoyer any different then a ten yard run from Johnny. When talking Johnny vs Hoyer most of you leave Johnny's running completely out of it. You might say Johnny is more athletic but his running is so much more than a side show. It's what made all of you watch him. It's what kept Coaches up at night. It's what beat Alabama. Hoyer has 4 rushing yards the whole season. Johnny would average that.
I get that I sound like a fan boy but I watch just as much football as all of you, NFL and college, and I really have never seen anything like Johnny. I'm not guaranteeing his success by any means but my opinion is that if Hoyer remains the starter this year or next because the Browns are 7-4 they are making a mistake.
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First off let me state that nothing you have said warrants anyone telling you to STFU. You have an opinion and at least from what I've seen you're not a dick about it and you bring up valid points.
Now, as to your points...like I said they're valid. But it was college. He showed in preseason that things were a little overwhelming for him. And Shanny's system is complicated apparently. There's things going on in NFL offense's that don't look complicated to us...but are. Especially at sunday game speed. All there is to it. I too want JM to take over this team, I just don't want him to do it soon. Here in Cleveland we have a habit of throwing draft picks out there behind center on day one and it ends up "ruining" them. I honestly think had we started Johnny he'd have been run out of the city by now cause he'd have made some awesome plays but our record would suck and everybody knows Cleveland fans live SUnday to SUnday. Like I have no doubt there were people calling for Pettine's job after the Houston loss. No question. There were people calling for his job after our preseason losses.....inconceivable. There's just no way that Johnny is ready this year to run a complex offense. A lot of things would have to be trimmed out of the playbook and it would make our offense less potent. Athletically, yes he would give opposing teams something else to think about. Perhaps it would work against one team. But like we see when other backups come into the game and do so freakin well that the fanbase is calling for them to be the starter....eventually teams prepare for them and then it's back to reality. Teams would solve Johnny pretty quick without an offense designed for him that he has time under center with. It may not even happen next year.
Johnny's first year he would look at his first option then take off. But his second year he was the best pocket passer in the country. He rarely threw into coverage or missed throws. And Manziel was the best I have ever seen at knowing when to run, at least in college. For sure he has a lot to learn but I don't see why you don't think Johnny couldn't have taken this team to 7-4. Johnny couldn't have played worse than Hoyer in at least 6 or 7 games. Most of Hoyer's game winning drives shouldn't have been needed in the first place. How do you excuse field goal after field goal against terrible defenses? Hoyer played one really good game against Pittsburgh and if he would have continued to play that way I would have a different opinion.
And when you say Johnny would have taken off why is that a negative? Anytime I hear people talk about his running ability it's either that he will get hurt running in the NFL or it's just highlight plays. But his running wins games. Why is a ten yard completion from Hoyer any different then a ten yard run from Johnny. When talking Johnny vs Hoyer most of you leave Johnny's running completely out of it. You might say Johnny is more athletic but his running is so much more than a side show. It's what made all of you watch him. It's what kept Coaches up at night. It's what beat Alabama. Hoyer has 4 rushing yards the whole season. Johnny would average that.
I get that I sound like a fan boy but I watch just as much football as all of you, NFL and college, and I really have never seen anything like Johnny. I'm not guaranteeing his success by any means but my opinion is that if Hoyer remains the starter this year or next because the Browns are 7-4 they are making a mistake.
First off let me state that nothing you have said warrants anyone telling you to STFU. You have an opinion and at least from what I've seen you're not a dick about it and you bring up valid points.
Its just an expression. He just reminds me of a teenage girl screaming and tearing her hair out at the sight of Donny Osmond. Girls acting that way for The Beatles was warranted....and they proved deserving of it. It was not warranted for Donny Osmond.
I just want this guy to wait to see if he has the Beatles on his hand....or Donny Osmond.
(are these references too outdated for you?)
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First off let me state that nothing you have said warrants anyone telling you to STFU. You have an opinion and at least from what I've seen you're not a dick about it and you bring up valid points.
Its just an expression. He just reminds me of a teenage girl screaming and tearing her hair out at the sight of Donny Osmond. Girls acting that way for The Beatles was warranted....and they proved deserving of it. It was not warranted for Donny Osmond.
I just want this guy to wait to see if he has the Beatles on his hand....or Donny Osmond.
(are these references too outdated for you?)
First off let me state that nothing you have said warrants anyone telling you to STFU. You have an opinion and at least from what I've seen you're not a dick about it and you bring up valid points.
Its just an expression. He just reminds me of a teenage girl screaming and tearing her hair out at the sight of Donny Osmond. Girls acting that way for The Beatles was warranted....and they proved deserving of it. It was not warranted for Donny Osmond.
I just want this guy to wait to see if he has the Beatles on his hand....or Donny Osmond.
(are these references too outdated for you?)
Again I am not saying Johnny could win the Super Bowl and it is true that none of us know what we have with Johnny. But speaking of what we have seen Hoyer has not played well, no matter what metric you use. If the coaching staff came out and said that Johnny isn't ready to handle NFL defenses then I would shut up and let Hoyer play through without saying anything. But rookies have had success in the past, more success than Hoyer is having this year so who's to say Johnny couldn't be one of those rookies. And AJ Mccarron went undefeated and won championships at Alabama but nobody would say that adding Johnny would have made the team worse.
This is as much to do with how Hoyer has played as it is with what I hope to see with Johnny but at this point obviously the coaching staff isn't going to make a change.
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You still did not address anything I posted..
Im asking you why you automatically expect Johnny to be bad.. instead of good...
I mean.. he was our first round draft pick that we traded up to get..
He had all the proper metrics in college that you look for.. for a QB with NFL potential..
I really dont understand why you automatically assume the worst instead of the best..
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First off let me state that nothing you have said warrants anyone telling you to STFU. You have an opinion and at least from what I've seen you're not a dick about it and you bring up valid points.
Its just an expression. He just reminds me of a teenage girl screaming and tearing her hair out at the sight of Donny Osmond. Girls acting that way for The Beatles was warranted....and they proved deserving of it. It was not warranted for Donny Osmond.
I just want this guy to wait to see if he has the Beatles on his hand....or Donny Osmond.
(are these references too outdated for you?)
Again I am not saying Johnny could win the Super Bowl and it is true that none of us know what we have with Johnny. But speaking of what we have seen Hoyer has not played well, no matter what metric you use. If the coaching staff came out and said that Johnny isn't ready to handle NFL defenses then I would shut up and let Hoyer play through without saying anything. But rookies have had success in the past, more success than Hoyer is having this year so who's to say Johnny couldn't be one of those rookies. And AJ Mccarron went undefeated and won championships at Alabama but nobody would say that adding Johnny would have made the team worse.
This is as much to do with how Hoyer has played as it is with what I hope to see with Johnny but at this point obviously the coaching staff isn't going to make a change.
Again I am not saying Johnny could win the Super Bowl and it is true that none of us know what we have with Johnny. But speaking of what we have seen Hoyer has not played well, no matter what metric you use. If the coaching staff came out and said that Johnny isn't ready to handle NFL defenses then I would shut up and let Hoyer play through without saying anything. But rookies have had success in the past, more success than Hoyer is having this year so who's to say Johnny couldn't be one of those rookies. And AJ Mccarron went undefeated and won championships at Alabama but nobody would say that adding Johnny would have made the team worse.
This is as much to do with how Hoyer has played as it is with what I hope to see with Johnny.
If you didn't get the reference, just say so. Donny Osmond had a hit in the 80s. It's as current as he goes, sorry man. Take some time and reflect. It has true bearing on this conversation.
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I understand what I would like the upside to be its just I wonder if it's feasible by this time in the league.
If it is expected that it takes six or seven years to be an above average quarterback with above average accuracy then we should have kept any of the aforementioned.
WSS
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You still did not address anything I posted..
Im asking you why you automatically expect Johnny to be bad.. instead of good...
I mean.. he was our first round draft pick that we traded up to get..
He had all the proper metrics in college that you look for.. for a QB with NFL potential..
I really dont understand why you automatically assume the worst instead of the best..
You still did not address anything I posted..
Im asking you why you automatically expect Johnny to be bad.. instead of good...
I mean.. he was our first round draft pick that we traded up to get..
He had all the proper metrics in college that you look for.. for a QB with NFL potential..
I really dont understand why you automatically assume the worst instead of the best..
Who are you addressing? I have seen no assumptions.
Johnny could be better for this team, he could not be. That's all we know (nothing) only NFL experience we've seen from johnny is pre season. Nobody is assuming he's going to be bad or good, he's an unknown.
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You still did not address anything I posted..
Im asking you why you automatically expect Johnny to be bad.. instead of good...
I mean.. he was our first round draft pick that we traded up to get..
He had all the proper metrics in college that you look for.. for a QB with NFL potential..
I really dont understand why you automatically assume the worst instead of the best..
You still did not address anything I posted..
Im asking you why you automatically expect Johnny to be bad.. instead of good...
I mean.. he was our first round draft pick that we traded up to get..
He had all the proper metrics in college that you look for.. for a QB with NFL potential..
I really dont understand why you automatically assume the worst instead of the best..
maybe no one wants to answer you because you're a dolt.
-
You still did not address anything I posted..
Im asking you why you automatically expect Johnny to be bad.. instead of good...
I mean.. he was our first round draft pick that we traded up to get..
He had all the proper metrics in college that you look for.. for a QB with NFL potential..
I really dont understand why you automatically assume the worst instead of the best..
Who are you addressing? I have seen no assumptions.
Johnny could be better for this team, he could not be. That's all we know (nothing) only NFL experience we've seen from johnny is pre season. Nobody is assuming he's going to be bad or good, he's an unknown.
Who are you addressing? I have seen no assumptions.
Johnny could be better for this team, he could not be. That's all we know (nothing) only NFL experience we've seen from johnny is pre season. Nobody is assuming he's going to be bad or good, he's an unknown.
But Hoyer is a known and he is not very good, no matter how much you tell me about the 7-4 record. Maybe Johnny would be 0-11 but maybe he would be 7-4 with the added ability to make something out of nothing, whether it's a broken play or the team is playing awful. And I know you wouldn't care about this but the excitement he brings is really something, that we can all agree. You all watched Texas A&M play simply because of him, just imagine watching your Browns play with him. I get 100% what you are saying and maybe putting Johnny in now is way to risky, but Hoyer isn't magically going to get more accurate. If we want to win in the playoffs I believe we need to make a change.
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