Courtney Clowney?
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To me this season boils down to if the Texans were being overly cautious with him, or Clowney was milking it. The media is spinning it for the latter, but it's not a crazy thought to believe the Texans know this season probably won't result in the playoffs and are planning accordingly. Get the guy 100%, get a QB or however they choose to go and plan for next year.
To me this season boils down to if the Texans were being overly cautious with him, or Clowney was milking it. The media is spinning it for the latter, but it's not a crazy thought to believe the Texans know this season probably won't result in the playoffs and are planning accordingly. Get the guy 100%, get a QB or however they choose to go and plan for next year.
I think his injuries have been legit. As were Courtney's. In Courtney's case, in addition to the injury bug there was a real question as to whether or not he had a passion for the game......actually, there was no question. I think it was proven he had no passion thus when he had injuries he turned into give up mode. Whether Clowney would do this remains to be seen.
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Is Too Tall Jones not in the HOF?
That really surprises me.
The dude was dominant.
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To me this season boils down to if the Texans were being overly cautious with him, or Clowney was milking it. The media is spinning it for the latter, but it's not a crazy thought to believe the Texans know this season probably won't result in the playoffs and are planning accordingly. Get the guy 100%, get a QB or however they choose to go and plan for next year.
I think his injuries have been legit. As were Courtney's. In Courtney's case, in addition to the injury bug there was a real question as to whether or not he had a passion for the game......actually, there was no question. I think it was proven he had no passion thus when he had injuries he turned into give up mode. Whether Clowney would do this remains to be seen.
I think his injuries have been legit. As were Courtney's. In Courtney's case, in addition to the injury bug there was a real question as to whether or not he had a passion for the game......actually, there was no question. I think it was proven he had no passion thus when he had injuries he turned into give up mode. Whether Clowney would do this remains to be seen.
I think on top of that he's always been a guy who got by on athletic ability alone, and the NFL is a whole different beast. I'll be interested to see how it all ends up, but I don't think the Texans made a bad draft pick. The guys potential outweighed any other top tier guy by a mile.
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Hes a bust.
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Is Too Tall Jones not in the HOF?
That really surprises me.
The dude was dominant.
No, he is not in. Bob Lilley/Randy White are in off of the Doomsday Defense but not TT. In fact the only following duo running mates on the defensive line from any one team are in the HOF:
Browns: Len Ford/Bill Willis
Cowboys: Lilley/White
Packers: Willie Davis/Henry Jordan
Vikings: Carl Eller/Alan Page
Rams: Merlin Olsen/Deacon Jones.
and the only one I can finder where I think there were 3 were:
Chiefs: Curley Culp/Buck Buchanan/Bobby Bell.
(only Joe Greene from "Steel Curtain" DL is in HOF)
But....if Clowney lived up to his potential the duo of he and JJ Watt could rival any of the above.
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Here are the only Linebacker Duos to play at the same time to make the Hall of Fame that I could find:
Packers: Ray Nitschke/Dave Robinson
Chiefs: Willie Lanier/Bobby Bell (putting him here at LB where he is most often placed)
Steelers: Jack Ham/Jack Lambert
Giants: Lawrence Taylor/Harry Carson
Note: The Packers of the 60s and the Chiefs of the late 60s/70s are the only teams I see which have both a DL HOF duo and an LB HOF duo.
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Only Defensive Backfield Hall of Fame duos in history that I can find:
Packers: Herb Adderly and Willie Wood
Lions: Dick LeBeau and Dick Night Train Lane
Cowboys: Mel Renfro and Herb Adderly (for about 3 years)
Cardinals: Larry Wilson and Roger Wehrli (also for about 3 years)
Needless to say with the Packers duo that team was the only with two players on the DL, two LBs and two DBs to make the HOF.
Does that not argue that that may have been the greatest defense of all time?
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Too early to tell...
I get the questions about Clowney's desire, work ethic, etc. Hell... I even shared them pre-draft, but he suffered a torn meniscus and now has had a second surgery on the same knee. I'm guessing he did not fake either.
Add to that that I also watched Mario Williams, the Texans other first #1 DE, struggle adjusting to the Pros for a year. The guy Houston passed over Reggie Bush to draft (remember that "controversy"?) totaled 4.5 sacks his rookie year. His 2nd and 3rd he posted 14.0 and 12.0.
So I'll wait until Clowney's year two in is the books...
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Can anyone name any recent team that you think would have 2 players in the same defensive unit: DL/LB/DBs that should be Hall of Fame players?
Could the Ray Lewis/Terrell Suggs LB duo be possible?
I think Champ Bailey and Darrell Green played together for a bit no? Anyone else?
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Zombo said:
Lewis and Reed, Ratbirds
Zombo
But one is an LB, the other a DB. I was looking for 2 LBs or 2 DL or 2 DBs....as in the duos listed above.
If you just took any two players in a defense, there could be any number of duos involved:
Sapp/Brooks are both already in the HOF.
How about Jason Taylor and Zach Martin? (one LB one DE)
How about Kevin Williams and Jared Allen. Both still active, both very quality DL, played together a few years in Minnesota?
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Zombo said:
Lewis and Reed, Ratbirds
Zombo
But one is an LB, the other a DB. I was looking for 2 LBs or 2 DL or 2 DBs....as in the duos listed above.
If you just took any two players in a defense, there could be any number of duos involved:
Sapp/Brooks are both already in the HOF.
How about Jason Taylor and Zach Martin? (one LB one DE)
How about Kevin Williams and Jared Allen. Both still active, both very quality DL, played together a few years in Minnesota?
But one is an LB, the other a DB. I was looking for 2 LBs or 2 DL or 2 DBs....as in the duos listed above.
If you just took any two players in a defense, there could be any number of duos involved:
Sapp/Brooks are both already in the HOF.
How about Jason Taylor and Zach Martin? (one LB one DE)
How about Kevin Williams and Jared Allen. Both still active, both very quality DL, playeew years in Minnesota?
Oh, I see what you are saying, same unit. No, don't think so. Zack Martin and Kevin Williams are not Hall caliber IMO.
Zombo
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Overlooked duos in my previous post:
Defensive Lines with 2 HOF players:
1958 Colts with Gino Marchetti and Art Donovan (plus Big Daddy Lipscomb)
1992 Vikings with John Randle and Chris Doleman
1975 Rams with Jack Youngblood and Merlin Olsen
1985 Bears with Richard Dent and Dan Hampton
1975 Oilers Curley Culp and Elvin Bethea
Linebacking Corps with 2 or more HOFers:
1955 Bears Bill George and George Connor
Defensive backfields with 2 or more HOFers:
1950s Lions with Jack Christiansen and Yale Lary
1960 Lions had Dick LeBeau, Yale Lary and Night Train Lane in the same DB corps, all Hall of Famer.
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Since the 1970 merger, the following Defensive Ends have been chosen with the #1 overall draft pick:
Walt Patulski
John Matuszak
Ed Too Tall Jones
Leroy Selmon
Ken Sims
Bruce Smith
Courtney Brown
Mario Williams
Jadaveon Clowney
So, you have two Hall of Famers Selmon/Smith. Two Pro Bowlers Too Tall and Mario.
One crazy man whose career is hard to quantify as good or bad: Matsuszak
Three complete busts: Patulski/Sims/Brown
So, where will Clowney come in on these lists? Right now he is doing a very good impersonation of Courtney Brown: showing flashes of talent but being injured. Will he stick to that for his career, or become a Selmon/Smith....or at least a Williams/Jones?
50/50 says he is Courtney Clowney.
Since the 1970 merger, the following Defensive Ends have been chosen with the #1 overall draft pick:
Walt Patulski
John Matuszak
Ed Too Tall Jones
Leroy Selmon
Ken Sims
Bruce Smith
Courtney Brown
Mario Williams
Jadaveon Clowney
So, you have two Hall of Famers Selmon/Smith. Two Pro Bowlers Too Tall and Mario.
One crazy man whose career is hard to quantify as good or bad: Matsuszak
Three complete busts: Patulski/Sims/Brown
So, where will Clowney come in on these lists? Right now he is doing a very good impersonation of Courtney Brown: showing flashes of talent but being injured. Will he stick to that for his career, or become a Selmon/Smith....or at least a Williams/Jones?
50/50 says he is Courtney Clowney.
It might be 50/50....who knows?
My hope is he is OK. The kid has a world of talent. Far greater then Courtney had. I always compared him as a combination of Leroy Selmon and Bruce Smith. Leroy had more of a power game and Bruce had more of a speed game. Clowney can bring it either way. I hope it works out for him. I don't like to see injury derail any players career. I don't care who they are or who they play for.
I know we have some younger posters around here. Many may remember Smith, but Selmon might have been a little before their time. Pull up some youtube stuff on Selmon. He is easily one of the top 10 defensive players I have ever seen, and I can crank the memory banks back to the late 50's with clarity.
I am a big fan of Leroy Selmon. He died way too young.
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But one is an LB, the other a DB. I was looking for 2 LBs or 2 DL or 2 DBs....as in the duos listed above.
If you just took any two players in a defense, there could be any number of duos involved:
Sapp/Brooks are both already in the HOF.
How about Jason Taylor and Zach Martin? (one LB one DE)
How about Kevin Williams and Jared Allen. Both still active, both very quality DL, playeew years in Minnesota?
Oh, I see what you are saying, same unit. No, don't think so. Zack Martin and Kevin Williams are not Hall caliber IMO.
Zombo
Zombo said:
Oh, I see what you are saying, same unit. No, don't think so. Zack Martin and Kevin Williams are not Hall caliber IMO.
Zombo
Yea, borderline at best.
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As long as we are covering this, I will sort of finish it off by listing here the teams that had 2 or more HOF offensive linemen playing at the same time. And here they are:
1970s era Raiders had Art Shell, Gene Upshaw and Jim Otto
1954 Browns had Lou Groza, Frank Gatski and Mike McCormack
1960s Packers had Jim Ringo and Forrest Gregg
1970s Dolphins had Jim Langer and Larry Little
1969/1970 Rams had Bob Brown and Tom Mack
1980s Oilers had Mike Munchak and Bruce Matthews.
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Finally.....here are the "Triplets" that have played together in the past. These teams had on them a Hall of Fame QB and HOF RB and a HOF receiver/end:
1940s/50s Rams: QB Norm Van Brocklin/Bob Waterfield RB Elroy Crazy Legs Hirsch WR/E Tom Fears
1940s/50s Browns: QB Otto Graham, RB Marion Motley, WR Dante Lavelli
(note: Jim Brown/Warfield did not play with HOF QB)
1950s/60s Colts: QB Johnny Unitas RB Lenny Moore WR Raymond Berry (they also had TE John Mackey)
1970s Steelers: QB Terry Bradshaw, RB Franco Harris WRs Lynn Swann and John Stallworth
1970s Dolphins: QB Bob Griese, RB Larry Csonka, WR Paul Warfield
1990s Bills: QB Jim Kelly, RB Thurman, WR Andre Reed
1990s Cowboys: QB Troy Aikman, RB Emmitt Smith, WR Michael Irvin
Who could have HOF "Triplets" in the future? Possibly 49ers if Roger Craig were inducted. He has been a finalist a few time.
Colts with Peyton, Marvin Harrison and Edgerinn James? James is borderline...the others two will make it.
St. Louis Rams: Faulk is already in.....Kurt Warner and Bruce/Holt could make it.
Anyone else?
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I read today that Clowney will be out for the remainder of the season with knee surgery.
Complete bust.
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I won't label him as a complete bust, but definitely a disappointing rookie season. Those knee injuries could haunt his whole career.
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I agree. I wouldn't say bust at all. That will spell out out in another few years, if so.
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