Jonathan Paul Manziel
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I think a lot of people are blaming Hoyer for issues that aren't his fault
I think it must suck for Hoyer having fans call for the unproven rookie as soon as he throws an interception
I think NFL defenses will figure out Johnny after a game or two of film on him
That being said, I say we start Johnny. We're out of the playoffs and we might as well see what he can do.
I think a lot of people are blaming Hoyer for issues that aren't his fault
I think it must suck for Hoyer having fans call for the unproven rookie as soon as he throws an interception
I think NFL defenses will figure out Johnny after a game or two of film on him
That being said, I say we start Johnny. We're out of the playoffs and we might as well see what he can do.
It wasn't a single interception. The last few game have had Hoyer playing awful. Sunday's game was just the most glaring one.
As of right now they know exactly what they are getting with Hoyer. Manziel needs an evaluation.
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I was more convinced JM gets the nod last nite than I am today.
While I would still make the change based upon the game, if there is a battle of will going on between Pettine and JM behind the scenes, as some of JM's most ardent supporters have mentioned in posts over the past dozen hours, then Pettine may stand firm...
... and JM may yet sit again.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I was more convinced JM gets the nod last nite than I am today.
While I would still make the change based upon the game, if there is a battle of will going on between Pettine and JM behind the scenes, as some of JM's most ardent supporters have mentioned in posts over the past dozen hours, then Pettine may stand firm...
... and JM may yet sit again.
I was more convinced JM gets the nod last nite than I am today.
While I would still make the change based upon the game, if there is a battle of will going on between Pettine and JM behind the scenes, as some of JM's most ardent supporters have mentioned in posts over the past dozen hours, then Pettine may stand firm...
... and JM may yet sit again.
I hope Pettine doesn't sacrifice potential wins to prove a point to a dumb kid.
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Mudfly, I think he said the obvious. On his own time, he should be free to do what he wants. I think most players would say the same thing. If a coach asked him for more time, he wouldn't cosider that his time anymore. To suggest he would ignore his coaches and teammates just to go party is quite a leap, and gpes against what I've been hearing.
" Im not going to change who I am for anybody. Im growing up and continuing to learn from my mistakes and trying not to make the same ones over and over again, but am I going to live in a shell or am I just going to hide from everybody and not do anything?
Im very committed to football. Im committed to my job, but on the weekends, Im going to enjoy my time off. We deserve it. We work hard here. I am going to enjoy my time off. Im very about football and very about my job, which doesnt get reported or wont get reported, but I am going to enjoy my time off.
Thats I think what everybody else does and thats what I should do.
He had more to say later.
Im going out. Everybody goes out on the weekends and enjoys their life and lives their life. And just for them, they dont have people that when they walk into a place pull out their phones and all they want to do is follow me around and record everything. My situation is unique and different and now more than ever Ive seen that its an every weekend thing wherever Im at whether its in Cleveland on a weekend, or in Dallas or anywhere on a weekend, people want to record what Im doing because they think its a story.
Everybody goes out and has fun. Everybody goes out and does that and Im not doing anything thats putting myself in a harmful situation.
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whatever....you all are right.....he's a pro's pro....top notch....totally mature....first to arrive, last to leave.....all that....
And....again.....Im simply saying he's immature....nothing more, nothing less.....yet you keep arguing with me, as if Im saying he shouldnt play, or he sucks, or something else.....
So....is your argument that acts maturely?.....
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By not doing what the FO and HC require of him off the field, he is costing us on the field because they won't put him in until he bucks up. There you go.
Ok..........What are his requirements? What rules did he break? You guys don't know any facts, and you're killing the kid for it.
Ok..........What are his requirements? What rules did he break? You guys don't know any facts, and you're killing the kid for it.
As opposed to you not having a facts yet backing JM?
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Just another ring in the circus, D...
It's Pettine's team... period.
If the expectations have been clearly delineated and JM is choosing to fall short of any of them, then Pettine is perfectly within his rights to get JM to fall into line. Even if that meant putting a bit player on the PS and activating Shaw, then he should do it.
Now what are reasonable expectations? Different question...
Setting a time to show up on Game Day based upon team need, and not another player's routine, is reasonable.
Requiring a player to sleep the night before a game may not be reasonable. Players get keyed up and can't sleep. It happens. It's different from fighting to stay awake so they can "tweet".
Questioning a mid-week, evening at a Cav's home game? Not reasonable... unless the job performance is very, very bad.
Wow... you are really feeling your oats now... aren't you?
Pettine needs to buy into JM's lifestyle? Really? Have you ever supervised anyone in your life? Were you in the Corps?
Didn't Sumlin sit JM for a bit after reaming him out for drawing a taunting penalty?
The footwork was dismal. The throw likely inaccurate to some degree as a result.
Does not change the fact that if Cam did not undercut the DBs as designed, he shares in the blame for the INT.
Wrong. It's Haslem's team and haslem is the boss. I think we all know jimmy haslem isn't afraid to break the rules.
Wrong. It's Haslem's team and haslem is the boss. I think we all know jimmy haslem isn't afraid to break the rules.
I'd be less surprised to see pettine out in the cold than johnny.
You're all forgetting who is the boss. Who pulls the strings. Who decided to draft manziel when coach wanted to pass? Who signs Pettine's paychecks? I could see jimmy haslem ditching pettine and hiring Jim harbaugh. And straight up directing him to start Johnny.
Jimmy's not stupid. He was burned last year chasing the bright, shiny HC candidate. He is not going there again anytime soon. Especially not Jim Harbaugh, whose shine has faded recently in case you had not noticed.
Haslam hired Farmer to select the personnel, Pettine to run the team and Scheiner to run the business. He's a CEO/ Owner who shows every sign of being a great, organization manager. The greats select capable people, empower them to do their jobs and hold them accountable to agreed, measurable metrics. They do not "micromanage".
You're thinking of Jerry Jones.
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I don't know much about JFF except what I have read in here, and very little anywhere else. I think he comes from a well to do/rich family. He is probably spoiled rotten and used to getting his own way. Odds are he won't change his ways if that is the case. So as long as he performs, screw it. The coach is not his father. As long as he is on time and shows up, and gives 100 percent that is all that matters. Like I said before, these guys are not high school/college players, they are pros.
I don't know much about JFF except what I have read in here, and very little anywhere else. I think he comes from a well to do/rich family. He is probably spoiled rotten and used to getting his own way. Odds are he won't change his ways if that is the case. So as long as he performs, screw it. The coach is not his father. As long as he is on time and shows up, and gives 100 percent that is all that matters. Like I said before, these guys are not high school/college players, they are pros.
Good, thoughtful post, DH... disagree with much of it (shocker), but doesn't mean I can't appreciate it.
Basically you're OK with JM doing as he likes, so long as he wins games? How many games will you tolerate losing per season due to game prep not up to NFL standards?
Game prep may well be at the core of Pettine's now clear reluctance to even consider starting JM. It's also at the core of being a pro...
Football is JM's job now... not a student activity.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Ok..........What are his requirements? What rules did he break? You guys don't know any facts, and you're killing the kid for it.
As opposed to you not having a facts yet backing JM?
As opposed to you not having a facts yet backing JM?
I'm not the prosecutor here Tour...
whatever....you all are right.....he's a pro's pro....top notch....totally mature....first to arrive, last to leave.....all that....
And....again.....Im simply saying he's immature....nothing more, nothing less.....yet you keep arguing with me, as if Im saying he shouldnt play, or he sucks, or something else.....
So....is your argument that acts maturely?.....
Are you serious? I told you, you win. Johnny is a bad guy that only cares about himself.
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I don't know much about JFF except what I have read in here, and very little anywhere else. I think he comes from a well to do/rich family. He is probably spoiled rotten and used to getting his own way. Odds are he won't change his ways if that is the case. So as long as he performs, screw it. The coach is not his father. As long as he is on time and shows up, and gives 100 percent that is all that matters. Like I said before, these guys are not high school/college players, they are pros.
Good, thoughtful post, DH... disagree with much of it (shocker), but doesn't mean I can't appreciate it.
Basically you're OK with JM doing as he likes, so long as he wins games? How many games will you tolerate losing per season due to game prep not up to NFL standards?
Game prep may well be at the core of Pettine's now clear reluctance to even consider starting JM. It's also at the core of being a pro...
Football is JM's job now... not a student activity.
Nobody is really suggesting that he's neglected game prep have they? Maybe he should be in Berea at 2 a.m. With the coaching staff? And since that's your biggest gripe apparently game prep aint everything since Brian Hoyer has kind of set the high-water mark for that, right?Good, thoughtful post, DH... disagree with much of it (shocker), but doesn't mean I can't appreciate it.
Basically you're OK with JM doing as he likes, so long as he wins games? How many games will you tolerate losing per season due to game prep not up to NFL standards?
Game prep may well be at the core of Pettine's now clear reluctance to even consider starting JM. It's also at the core of being a pro...
Football is JM's job now... not a student activity.
WSS
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I don't know much about JFF except what I have read in here, and very little anywhere else. I think he comes from a well to do/rich family. He is probably spoiled rotten and used to getting his own way. Odds are he won't change his ways if that is the case. So as long as he performs, screw it. The coach is not his father. As long as he is on time and shows up, and gives 100 percent that is all that matters. Like I said before, these guys are not high school/college players, they are pros.
Good, thoughtful post, DH... disagree with much of it (shocker), but doesn't mean I can't appreciate it.
Basically you're OK with JM doing as he likes, so long as he wins games? How many games will you tolerate losing per season due to game prep not up to NFL standards?
Game prep may well be at the core of Pettine's now clear reluctance to even consider starting JM. It's also at the core of being a pro...
Football is JM's job now... not a student activity.
Good, thoughtful post, DH... disagree with much of it (shocker), but doesn't mean I can't appreciate it.
Basically you're OK with JM doing as he likes, so long as he wins games? How many games will you tolerate losing per season due to game prep not up to NFL standards?
Game prep may well be at the core of Pettine's now clear reluctance to even consider starting JM. It's also at the core of being a pro...
Football is JM's job now... not a student activity.
Has any coach come out and publicly said JFF is not studying enough. Maybe Shanny's offense is really hard to learn? Or maybe we have some bitter geriatrics that don't like the way he "acts". He's not old school enough I guess. This board has to have the record for the amount of insiders that know the ins and outs of the team and staff.
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When has Haden been benched for going to Cavs games?
If this is true, just shows that Pettine has a personal dislike for Manziel.
When has Haden been benched for going to Cavs games?
When has Haden gone?
No I'm not moving on till you admit you're wrong or give me facts. I don't post a lot but When I "think" I'm right i'm not just gonna move on.
Again... the loss in Manziel v Playbook?
Hide seems to be the only way to keep the publicity off of him. Look at all the news again popping up about him now that the media realizes its only a matter of time before he starts. I doubt he can take a piss without tmz reporting on it. 'JFF was seen taking a piss at 0230 on a Tuesday' Obviously, he is not taking his job seriously.
Uninformed folks like us may well infer job dedication from piss sightings in the wee hours, but that's just TMZ-grade gossip (yes, I am looking into the TMZ biz).
The true, and only just, context for all extracurriculars is job performance. And that's more than just the Sunday 12-3 CDT we see, it's the T-F, 9-5 EDT (?) we don't see.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I'm not a life long Browns fan, so of course I have no long-term dog in this fight like those that suffered for years of misery with piss-poor teams over the last decade+.
I wanted to make a few comments.
What you are seeing from Brian Hoyer is what you saw from him in college. Brian had shown his ceiling years ago and people (Browns coaching) chose to believe that he'd be a good game manager.
Look at his MSU college stats. He had a great year in 2007 and still managed just 59.3% completion. He regressed his following year.
**NOTE***
Not sure why, but the table I pasted from wiki showed up as a normal format and was only converted after posting the message...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Hoyer
Of the meaningful snaps he took, I look to AZ where had 53 attempts. Again, the guy is around 56% completion.
Yes, I'm a Johnny homer. I had the privilege to watch just about every game he played in (home and away) while at Texas A&M. The kid is electric and has incredible accuracy while throwing on the run. But more than just that, it is his attitude which is somehow positively infectious to a team. Teammates playing alongside Johnny believe in the kid. They knew that he was going to give 110% to win the game and it pissed him off like no other if he came up short. It genuinely pisses him off and he hates to lose ala Tom Brady. When the defense would stink (which was often), he'd march down the sidelines and fire the team up. He'd tell them to just get one more stop and he'd win the game. A&M was a mediocre to poor team. We should have lost to Arkansas early in the season. We were playing in AT&T Stadium and down multiple touch downs. I watched Johnny go to the sidelines and pump up the team. They responded to him. They rallied back and somehow won that game in overtime down 14 pts in the 4th quarter.
Again, I don't know what it is about this guy, but I fully believe the vets on the Browns team will eventually come around. He is a fiery piss-ant of a competitor and somehow he elevates everyone else's play around him. It's like they want to go out there and be every bit of a bad ass as they can. Of course Johnny wouldn't win every game he is in, but I honestly think Manziel would have won vs the Colts, which probably isn't hard to say given what everyone saw on the offensive side of the ball Sunday.
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When has Haden been benched for going to Cavs games?
When has Haden gone?
No I'm not moving on till you admit you're wrong or give me facts. I don't post a lot but When I "think" I'm right i'm not just gonna move on.
Again... the loss in Manziel v Playbook?
Hide seems to be the only way to keep the publicity off of him. Look at all the news again popping up about him now that the media realizes its only a matter of time before he starts. I doubt he can take a piss without tmz reporting on it. 'JFF was seen taking a piss at 0230 on a Tuesday' Obviously, he is not taking his job seriously.
Uninformed folks like us may well infer job dedication from piss sightings in the wee hours, but that's just TMZ-grade gossip (yes, I am looking into the TMZ biz).
The true, and only just, context for all extracurriculars is job performance. And that's more than just the Sunday 12-3 CDT we see, it's the T-F, 9-5 EDT (?) we don't see.
When has Haden gone?
Google Joe Haden and then Cavs. Then click on pictures.
Manziel vs playbook? I don't understand what you're saying has to do with my quote?
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Tour,
" Before I address this tidbit, would you confirm that it reads as you intended it to? "If they're so stupid as to WANT Hoyer, why should Johnny do anything more than what he has to do." Because as I read it you are more than OK with JM setting the terms and doing the minimum."
I'm saying that it is plausible for Johnny to be pissed and upset that the "veterans" and "coaches" want Hoyer to start despite the fact that Johnny was more productive in one series than Hoyer has been in weeks.
If the decision to then start Hoyer caused Johnny to only show up on time to work, and not 5 hours early, who could blame him?
Tour,
" Before I address this tidbit, would you confirm that it reads as you intended it to? "If they're so stupid as to WANT Hoyer, why should Johnny do anything more than what he has to do." Because as I read it you are more than OK with JM setting the terms and doing the minimum."
I'm saying that it is plausible for Johnny to be pissed and upset that the "veterans" and "coaches" want Hoyer to start despite the fact that Johnny was more productive in one series than Hoyer has been in weeks.
If the decision to then start Hoyer caused Johnny to only show up on time to work, and not 5 hours early, who could blame him?
Got it now and thanks for the clarification as it saved me a(nother) mini-rant...
Also going to save the whole "one week thing" for later as well. It's getting a lot of use now and needs to be examined... but later.
As for your question: Yes, we all could blame him, but the only one he has to worry about is his HC.
I'm trying to think of another term that "pouting" to describe the JM reaction you describe, but I can't so it'll have to do, implied immaturity connotations and all.
Here's a hypothetical that may apply to what you suggest may be occurring:
- A minimum expectation of a visible activity is 6 and an employee has routinely done it at between an 8 and 9 level for so long that it has become "expected"... and not just by Management, but also co-workers.
- Then the person has a "performance review". All know that the review took place and the some result of the meeting, but only those in the room know the specific details of what was said in the meeting.
- Following the review the person starts to post 6 after 6, the minimum.
Rhetorical questions perhaps, but one result that IMO would not warrant inclusion in any list of potential is endear himself even more to all levels of the organization.
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Wrong. It's Haslem's team and haslem is the boss. I think we all know jimmy haslem isn't afraid to break the rules.
I'd be less surprised to see pettine out in the cold than johnny.
You're all forgetting who is the boss. Who pulls the strings. Who decided to draft manziel when coach wanted to pass? Who signs Pettine's paychecks? I could see jimmy haslem ditching pettine and hiring Jim harbaugh. And straight up directing him to start Johnny.
Jimmy's not stupid. He was burned last year chasing the bright, shiny HC candidate. He is not going there again anytime soon. Especially not Jim Harbaugh, whose shine has faded recently in case you had not noticed.
Haslam hired Farmer to select the personnel, Pettine to run the team and Scheiner to run the business. He's a CEO/ Owner who shows every sign of being a great, organization manager. The greats select capable people, empower them to do their jobs and hold them accountable to agreed, measurable metrics. They do not "micromanage".
You're thinking of Jerry Jones.
Jimmy's not stupid. He was burned last year chasing the bright, shiny HC candidate. He is not going there again anytime soon. Especially not Jim Harbaugh, whose shine has faded recently in case you had not noticed.
Haslam hired Farmer to select the personnel, Pettine to run the team and Scheiner to run the business. He's a CEO/ Owner who shows every sign of being a great, organization manager. The greats select capable people, empower them to do their jobs and hold them accountable to agreed, measurable metrics. They do not "micromanage".
You're thinking of Jerry Jones.
Nope that's jerrah. I'm thinking of jimmah
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Assumptions galore, so I'll add mine...
They drafted Manziel knowing what type of character he has.
If they didn't like it, they shouldn't have drafted him.
If they didn't like it, yet thought they could change him or he would eventually change (i.e. mature), they'd better be willing to pay the consequences if/when it doesn't pan out the way they hoped. But like WSS said, thanks for punishing all of us.
If they didn't like it, yet ultimately don't care what he does off-field, and simply hope he wins games (when they feel he's ready), then ok. Most logical choice to me is this one. They thought Hoyer gave them the best chance to win yesterday, not Manziel because to them he's shown he isn't ready.
That leaves one last question. Do they think his off-field behavior affects how fast his ramp-up time is to becoming ready, by their standards? IMO, the most talented people need less time to prepare than the average talented ones. Hoyer probably needs to put in extra hours of work to perform well, as opposed to Manziel that does not, if he's the talent they think he is.
One more issue then comes to mind. If Manziel is the world-beater QB and doesn't have to work at it 100% all the time, what happens when he has a bad game? He's human, it's going to happen. He might get blamed for not working hard enough. And he'd better be prepared for that if he's going to do the bare minimum.
The only answer I can come up with is the coaches should learn who their players are, as people as well as athletes. Then set rules and standards for them that they must meet. If they do more than what's expected of them, great. If they do the bare minimum, that's fine too as long as they perform well and do what is expected of them on the field. If they fall short, and it's found due to their work-life balance, tighten up those rules and standards.
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^ This.
"You planning on having a long relationship with that glass or are you going to drink it? Drink up, man. Maybe we can get another.” - Janis Joplin, 1970. -
Assumptions galore, so I'll add mine...
They drafted Manziel knowing what type of character he has.
If they didn't like it, they shouldn't have drafted him.
If they didn't like it, yet thought they could change him or he would eventually change (i.e. mature), they'd better be willing to pay the consequences if/when it doesn't pan out the way they hoped. But like WSS said, thanks for punishing all of us.
If they didn't like it, yet ultimately don't care what he does off-field, and simply hope he wins games (when they feel he's ready), then ok. Most logical choice to me is this one. They thought Hoyer gave them the best chance to win yesterday, not Manziel because to them he's shown he isn't ready.
That leaves one last question. Do they think his off-field behavior affects how fast his ramp-up time is to becoming ready, by their standards? IMO, the most talented people need less time to prepare than the average talented ones. Hoyer probably needs to put in extra hours of work to perform well, as opposed to Manziel that does not, if he's the talent they think he is.
One more issue then comes to mind. If Manziel is the world-beater QB and doesn't have to work at it 100% all the time, what happens when he has a bad game? He's human, it's going to happen. He might get blamed for not working hard enough. And he'd better be prepared for that if he's going to do the bare minimum.
The only answer I can come up with is the coaches should learn who their players are, as people as well as athletes. Then set rules and standards for them that they must meet. If they do more than what's expected of them, great. If they do the bare minimum, that's fine too as long as they perform well and do what is expected of them on the field. If they fall short, and it's found due to their work-life balance, tighten up those rules and standards.
Assumptions galore, so I'll add mine...
They drafted Manziel knowing what type of character he has.
If they didn't like it, they shouldn't have drafted him.
If they didn't like it, yet thought they could change him or he would eventually change (i.e. mature), they'd better be willing to pay the consequences if/when it doesn't pan out the way they hoped. But like WSS said, thanks for punishing all of us.
If they didn't like it, yet ultimately don't care what he does off-field, and simply hope he wins games (when they feel he's ready), then ok. Most logical choice to me is this one. They thought Hoyer gave them the best chance to win yesterday, not Manziel because to them he's shown he isn't ready.
That leaves one last question. Do they think his off-field behavior affects how fast his ramp-up time is to becoming ready, by their standards? IMO, the most talented people need less time to prepare than the average talented ones. Hoyer probably needs to put in extra hours of work to perform well, as opposed to Manziel that does not, if he's the talent they think he is.
One more issue then comes to mind. If Manziel is the world-beater QB and doesn't have to work at it 100% all the time, what happens when he has a bad game? He's human, it's going to happen. He might get blamed for not working hard enough. And he'd better be prepared for that if he's going to do the bare minimum.
The only answer I can come up with is the coaches should learn who their players are, as people as well as athletes. Then set rules and standards for them that they must meet. If they do more than what's expected of them, great. If they do the bare minimum, that's fine too as long as they perform well and do what is expected of them on the field. If they fall short, and it's found due to their work-life balance, tighten up those rules and standards.
^This
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I'd be less surprised to see pettine out in the cold than johnny.
I'd be less surprised to see pettine out in the cold than johnny.
If Pettine is out in the cold and Harbaugh is not acquired in a Trade (unlikely), the Browns might as well hire Ghoolie as their Head Coach.
Who, in their right mind, would want to get mixed up with such a mixed up organization that hires HCs du Jour?
Time will tell but, arguably, the FO screwed up last year's draft.
Did the GM screw up the HC hire? Too early to tell, but it is way, way too early to condemn Pettine.
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