Bernie's take
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When do the successful teams bring them in. That si the real question. And not one team this year brought in a rookie QB in the heart of the playoff run with only a week prep with the ones, a process that should have been in place long before you bring any QB in unless injury forces your hand. I said when they did it that it was an unfair thing to do to any rookie, but I hoped he could find a way to overcome front a fundamental management mistake. It proved out to be a mistake that most fans do not see for what it is, just that. Instead we go back to the old tried and true blame the QB Browns method of hang the strawman.
That's a good point but all I heard was how he was going to come in and light it up. Hoyer is a turd and Johnny is the savior. Now he needs more time to become football jesus?
That's a good point but all I heard was how he was going to come in and light it up. Hoyer is a turd and Johnny is the savior. Now he needs more time to become football jesus?
I said when they made the change that I hoped he got the same great D and O line play that they gave Hoyer in his last game and Tour even came on to tease me that "NOW" I thought he might need help. Well I have been extremely consistent in saying great teams start with great D and O-line play and without them no QB can win games. Hoyer got that his last game, but for whatever reason it just didn't work out. I also stated from the beginning that I feared it was a mistake to bring a rookie QB in with no 1's experience when all opponents would be in playoff mode against a guy with no experience and stated BEFORE Sunday that this was an unfair way to treat any rookie QB. Again I got teased a bit for not having the confidence i showed in him coming into the board this summer. But anyone knowledgeable about pro ball knows you don't make that kind of fundamental change this late in the season with virtually no playing time unless you are forced to do so by injury. No where since the decision to change did I say he was going to "save" anyone other than maybe his own skin by eluding people wanting to damage "Moneymanziel".
I admitted he did not play well and was far below even minimum expectations, but that does not mean it was the correct decision which sets him up to fail, just as Bernie has described.
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So the browns set him up to fail, got it.
Such a shame that no matter what he does he's gonna fail because he's with the browns dysfunctional organization.
The pressure of an important NFL game just made him forget how to read an NFL defense, throw from the pocket, sense pressure, etc. Wouldn't have had any issues had we put him in when we were out of contention, like the chance he gets this coming Sunday. Pettine should have known better.
Not saying it isn't tough to make your first start against a first place division opponent in a playoff race, but I dont think anybody who played poorly is using the big moment as an excuse for poor play, including Johnny.
Knowing Johnny's persona sounds like he would have preferred to have this kinda opportunity for his debut.
I thought before the Bengals Johnny was the right choice, but then there's the hind sight.
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If manziel didn't suck, there isn't even all of this.
Everybody that agreed with switching to manziel is now saying it was a mistake by a dysfunctional organization? Why didn't anybody say that before the switch was made.
If hoyer played and sucked Sunday it would have been the same thing.
Whatever, just get rid of the elf and end all of the nonsense he brought.
Everybody that agreed with switching to manziel is now saying it was a mistake by a dysfunctional organization? Why didn't anybody say that before the switch was made.
In fairness, Ag69 did say that last week... albeit in the midst of a good deal of giddiness over his guy starting.
The excuse for manziel failing is because he's a bitch who couldn't handle the pressure of being a starter on a team contending for a division title or wild card berth. What a bitch if that's the case, I thought he had a competitive edge and instead he laughs when those bungles shove the money sign in his face.
The excuse for Hoyer failing is because he had the pressure of manziel behind him? What a bitch if that's the case.
Not going to copy entire post, but it was one beautiful rant... standing O from me, bb...
I said when they made the change that I hoped he got the same great D and O line play that they gave Hoyer in his last game and Tour even came on to tease me that "NOW" I thought he might need help. Well I have been extremely consistent in saying great teams start with great D and O-line play and without them no QB can win games. Hoyer got that his last game, but for whatever reason it just didn't work out.
First, it was, just as you said, teasing. Not teasing now... serious business.
Second, if you think what "Hoyer got that his last game (Indy)" was "great... O line play" then you either really don't know O-line play or your Maroon glasses are in rare form. I suspect the latter.
Indy grades may be up today. Johnny's game maybe Friday.
Third, you continue to cling to the "no reps" with #1's point despite it's being disputed. How much longer will you cling to it?
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That's a good point but all I heard was how he was going to come in and light it up. Hoyer is a turd and Johnny is the savior. Now he needs more time to become football jesus?
I said when they made the change that I hoped he got the same great D and O line play that they gave Hoyer in his last game and Tour even came on to tease me that "NOW" I thought he might need help. Well I have been extremely consistent in saying great teams start with great D and O-line play and without them no QB can win games. Hoyer got that his last game, but for whatever reason it just didn't work out. I also stated from the beginning that I feared it was a mistake to bring a rookie QB in with no 1's experience when all opponents would be in playoff mode against a guy with no experience and stated BEFORE Sunday that this was an unfair way to treat any rookie QB. Again I got teased a bit for not having the confidence i showed in him coming into the board this summer. But anyone knowledgeable about pro ball knows you don't make that kind of fundamental change this late in the season with virtually no playing time unless you are forced to do so by injury. No where since the decision to change did I say he was going to "save" anyone other than maybe his own skin by eluding people wanting to damage "Moneymanziel".
I admitted he did not play well and was far below even minimum expectations, but that does not mean it was the correct decision which sets him up to fail, just as Bernie has described.
I said when they made the change that I hoped he got the same great D and O line play that they gave Hoyer in his last game and Tour even came on to tease me that "NOW" I thought he might need help.....exactly. The second they said they were going to play him, y'all started back pedaling and "preparing" the excuse wagon....
Well I have been extremely consistent in saying great teams start with great D and O-line play and without them no QB can win games....True. But can he score a point? maybe just look the part...even a little?
Hoyer got that his last game, but for whatever reason it just didn't work out. I also stated from the beginning that I feared it was a mistake to bring a rookie QB in with no 1's experience ....Um, all rookies come in under the same pretext. None have #1 experience until they are named starter. JFF is no different than every other rookie or QB that ever got put into a game....except that he's had the whole season to prepare.....and there were 4 weeks of decline with Hoyer, which he was well aware of. So maybe he shoulda used his little brain to actually anticipate that he'd be playing soon. Right?
Do you think it's a "sudden surprise" that he played?
when all opponents would be in playoff mode against a guy with no experience and stated BEFORE Sunday that this was an unfair way to treat any rookie QB. Again I got teased a bit for not having the confidence i showed in him coming into the board this summer....exactly again. Where'd all that bravado go? All we heard was how he was "different" and over came things that "average" QB's dont. So a little pressure kills him all of a sudden? Its "unfair" to play your 1st round pick, because why?
But anyone knowledgeable about pro ball knows you don't make that kind of fundamental change this late in the season with virtually no playing time unless you are forced to do so by injury.....Anyone knowledgeable about football knows the "reason" a player is put in does NOT determine how well he plays. Fucking Tim Tebow was thrust into a Playoff race and won. But, of course, Im sure you'll say thats different. That he was a bad QB on a good team and JFF is a good QB on a bad team////right? So, whether BH got hurt or pulled, JFF is the back up and needed to be ready. He wasn't.
No where since the decision to change did I say he was going to "save" anyone other than maybe his own skin by eluding people wanting to damage "Moneymanziel"....operative words..."since the decision"....waffle much?
I admitted he did not play well and was far below even minimum expectations...there you go. "Far below minimum expectations".....thats what we are sayin too....he was a huge disappointment....no debate there....so why all the defense mechanisms?...the truth hurts, I get it.
but that does not mean it was the correct decision which sets him up to fail...its a team. We are trying to win, not coddle babies. It was the CORRECT decision because BH was failing the team. And in the NFL, when you play poorly, you get benched. And when you are a backup making millions and the starter gets benched, the expectation is that you will be READY and come in and do your job. He wasn't and didnt.
ALL YEAR WE'VE BEEN SAYING "NEXT MAN UP" and MANY have done just that.....apparently that doesnt apply to QB's.....
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Charlie Manziel will only succeed if this team is built around his abilities. That's not going to happen by Sunday.
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Charlie Manziel will only succeed if this team is built around his abilities. That's not going to happen by Sunday.
Charlie Manziel will only succeed if this team is built around his abilities. That's not going to happen by Sunday.
Exactly the wrong thought process. Build your team around a qb who has "special/ubique" abilities and when he gets injured you're screwed.
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Charlie Manziel will only succeed if this team is built around his abilities. That's not going to happen by Sunday.
Charlie Manziel will only succeed if this team is built around his abilities.
How do you build a team around improvisation?
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Well I think the Cincinnati Bengals were pissed off and playing over their heads even though they are a darn good team. They wanted to stick it to the Cleveland Browns for embarrassing them in their own house and would have done this to Brian Hoyer or Joe Montana.It shows that either Pettine was told by Jimmy to put in JFF or that he is not an intelligent coach. I agree putting in JFF now was idiotic. Especially with playoffs still a possibility. I have a feeling there was a strong suggestion from Jimmy to put in JFF.
And yes Bernie played in the NFL many years ago and no he has absolutely no clue what's going on in the front office or locker room today.
WSS
And yes Bernie played in the NFL many years ago and no he has absolutely no clue what's going on in the front office or locker room today.
Ditto for Timmy... Other than an Admin Asst. here and there, how many Berea employees have been there for 15 years?
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Interesting. I have been scratching my head since Sunday wondering how the Browns staff could have gotten it so wrong. Clearly Sunday was NOT the time to put in a player who was in over his head. How could they have thought that he was ready? How could they have been so impatient now, when all teams are in playoff mode, to throw him to the wolves when they had been so patiently bringing him along to learn how to be a pro QB? Maybe what Bernie says has more merit than just first glance. It's far easier to just denigrate another Browns QB because it has now become "tradition". It's been obvious on this board from the moment he was drafted that he was getting the usual "Browns" welcome to the NFL, the place the rest of the nation jokingly refers to as the city where QB's come to die. Either properly let him grow into the position or trade him to someone like Dallas or Green Bay who will.
JFF has justifiably had to eat a plate full of humble pie this week. How about the staff give him a break and not make him eat two more plates full before making a premature decision for his long term future? And I agree with Bernie, it's far easier just to write off another QB rather than to look within to see what is wrong with a system that has eaten up 21 and counting since return to Cleveland.
George Santayana. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana (16 December 1863 in Madrid, Spain – 26 September 1952 in Rome, Italy) was a philosopher, essayist, poet and novelist.
Interesting. I have been scratching my head since Sunday wondering how the Browns staff could have gotten it so wrong. Clearly Sunday was NOT the time to put in a player who was in over his head. How could they have thought that he was ready? How could they have been so impatient now, when all teams are in playoff mode, to throw him to the wolves when they had been so patiently bringing him along to learn how to be a pro QB? Maybe what Bernie says has more merit than just first glance. It's far easier to just denigrate another Browns QB because it has now become "tradition". It's been obvious on this board from the moment he was drafted that he was getting the usual "Browns" welcome to the NFL, the place the rest of the nation jokingly refers to as the city where QB's come to die. Either properly let him grow into the position or trade him to someone like Dallas or Green Bay who will.
JFF has justifiably had to eat a plate full of humble pie this week. How about the staff give him a break and not make him eat two more plates full before making a premature decision for his long term future? And I agree with Bernie, it's far easier just to write off another QB rather than to look within to see what is wrong with a system that has eaten up 21 and counting since return to Cleveland.
George Santayana. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. George Santayana (16 December 1863 in Madrid, Spain – 26 September 1952 in Rome, Italy) was a philosopher, essayist, poet and novelist.
I am sure I will get flamed plenty for this but I do not believe that anyone on the coaching staff made the decision to start Manziel. I believe that all of the players on the team know that as well. They practice with him everyday, they see both his performance on and off the field and I think both the coaches and his team mates knew he was not ready. I believe the call was made from the very top and it was executed grudgingly by the coaching staff and was perceived by the team as throwing in the towel. Unlike tacomeat who posts like he knows things to be fact I readily admit this is speculation on my part. I do think if you read between the lines here and there its not hard to reach this conclusion however.
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Well I'm not sure Bob. I mean seriously bernie is broke and drunk half the time. I have to wonder if he isn't just a little bitter about the organization and his role in it. Sure we need to get lucky in the draft but unless somebody specifically tells me what's wrong with the front office every couple years it doesn't seem like they have anything substantial to say. Just bitching doesn't sound like a blueprint for success.
WSS
Well I'm not sure Bob. I mean seriously bernie is broke and drunk half the time. I have to wonder if he isn't just a little bitter about the organization and his role in it. Sure we need to get lucky in the draft but unless somebody specifically tells me what's wrong with the front office every couple years it doesn't seem like they have anything substantial to say. Just bitching doesn't sound like a blueprint for success.
WSS
not sure who is calling the shots with this organization...although hoyer was going downhill, he seemed to go downhill when we lost our running game due to the mack injury...hoyers best games was when he could playaction. now defenses no we have no running game so playaction is useless now...not saying hoyer would have had a great game against the bengals, but putting this kid on the field now is crazy. i don't think jimmy hasbeen is a good owner at all.. i know i don't trust the dude...
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When should they have brought him in? He's had all year to learn the playbook and prepare. By his own admission he did not do so. He had the luxury that most 1st round QBs do not get in this era of the NFL, a generous amount of time to learn.
When do the successful teams bring them in. That si the real question. And not one team this year brought in a rookie QB in the heart of the playoff run with only a week prep with the ones, a process that should have been in place long before you bring any QB in unless injury forces your hand. I said when they did it that it was an unfair thing to do to any rookie, but I hoped he could find a way to overcome front a fundamental management mistake. It proved out to be a mistake that most fans do not see for what it is, just that. Instead we go back to the old tried and true blame the QB Browns method of hang the strawman.
When do the successful teams bring them in. That si the real question........ Instead we go back to the old tried and true blame the QB Browns method of hang the strawman.
Excuse me, but EVERY team in the league should have the option of playing their back ups, whether the starter is playing poorly or gets hurt.
Thats why we have back ups in the first place. Hoyer was playing terrible and we needed to win now. We gave him several games to improve and he didn't. Its EXPECTED that we go to the next man and try to salvage the playoff run. Not unfair.
If we can't play our back up because it's not fair to him, then what is it to the team that needs a back up QB now?
So, it's "unfair" to Johnny to put him in because he's not played yet or only has 15 weeks of practice.
But it's NOT unfair to the team(and fans) to keep him on the bench when we need a backup???
What would a successful team do if their quarterback suddenly lost it and laid 4 to 5 eggs in a row?
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I guess it just isn't Bernie who sees it..................
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Where have we heard this before?
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how about the post right above it. Are you touched?
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