O-line Grades: Week 14 IND and Week 15 CIN

Tour2ma

O-line Grades: Week 14 IND and Week 15 CIN

Behind... so doing a twofer catch-up... besides the comparison under Hoyer and JM is of interest.

IND: 15 series counting the one-play, last "series" at the end of the first half and including one 2-n-out and seven 3-n-outs with 38-1st-half plays and 26-2nd-half plays for 64 total plays.

CIN: 10 series counting the game's one-play, last "series" and including seven 3-n-outs with 25-1st-half plays and 17-2nd-half plays for a season low, 42 total plays. 22 were Pistol formations.

I'm skipping the Series start times, reordering the line-up with only this general note up front:

Zone blocking came back.

Weekly Box Counts... IND/CIN... Now Sponsored by a Three-Time Loser...

IND......................................................./ CIN......................................................

1st : 8+ - 3; 7 - 23; 6 - 15; 5 or less - 0 / 1st : 8+ - 5; 7 - 10; 6 - 8; 5 or less - 2

2nd: 8+ - 2; 7 - 12; 6 - 07; 5 or less - 5 / 2nd: 8+ - 1; 7 - 6; 6 - 8 ; 5 or less - 2__

Tot : 8+ - 5; 7 - 35; 6 - 22; 5 or less - 5 / Tot : 8+ - 6; 7 - 16; 6 - 16; 5 or less - 4

The Grades

Joe Thomas - IND: 1st +8-10 net -2 w/ 2D+&2D-; 2nd +6-2 net +4; Game Totals: +14-12 net +2

Joe Thomas - CIN: 1st +5-4 net +1 w/ 1D+&2D-; 2nd +3-4 net -1 w/ 2D- ; Game Totals: +8-8 net 0

IND Notes: Took his pre-snap "fidgeting" to a new level. D+'s for Outside Seal; Lead Drive; D-'s for False Start; Bulled into BH's Lap.

CIN Notes: D+ for Turn Out at Point of Attack (POA); D-'s for Stoned by LB; False Start; No Seal; Inside Pressure.

Joel Bitonio- IND: 1st +18-6 net +12 w/ 4D+&1D-; 2nd +5-4 net +1 w/ 1D+&1D-; Game Totals: +23-10 net +13

Joel Bitonio- CIN: 1st +10-3 net +7 w/ 1D+&1D-; 2nd +2-2 net 0 w/ 1D+&1D-; Game Totals: +12-5 net +7

IND Notes: D+'s for Chip+2nd; Outside Seal; Drive; Inside Seal; POA; D-'s for Missed Cut; Swim Pressure.

CIN Notes: D+'s for Drive 2nd Level twice; D-'s for Chip&Killed; Inside Released

Ryan Seymore - IND: 1st +12-13 net -1 w/ 2D+&6D-; 2nd +4-12 net -8 w/ 1D+&5D-; Game Totals: +16-25 net -9

Ryan Seymore - CIN: 1st +7-5 net +2 w/ 1D+&1D-; 2nd +2-3 net -1 w/ 1D-; Game Totals: +9-8 net +1

IND Notes: D+'s for Hard Fought Seal; Flatten 2nd; Drive; D-'s for Stuffed; Blown Back; Nada; Pressure up Middle; Look Right w. 2 Left; No Chip & No Seal; Dive no Cut; Pressure; Missed Blitz.

CIN Notes: D+'s for POA; D-'s for Whiffed Seal; False Start

John Greco-IND: 1st +12-7 net +5 w/ 3D+&1D-; 2nd +5-8 net -3 w/ 1D+&2D-; Game Totals: +17-15 net +2

John Greco-CIN: 1st +9-3 net +6 w/ 2D+; 2nd +3-1 net +2; Game Totals: +12-4 net +8

IND Notes: D+'s for Drive DT; Outside Seal; Reverse Seal; Drive; D-'s for No Control; Pressure; Missed Blitz

CIN Notes: D+'s for Speed rush; D-'s: None

Mitchell Schwartz-IND: 1st +16-9 net +7 w/4D+&4D-; 2nd +6-8 net -2 w/3D-; Game Totals: +22-17 net +5

Mitchell Schwartz-CIN: 1st +3-5 net -2 w/2D-; 2nd +2-2 net -0 &1?; Game Totals: +5-7 net -2

IND Notes: D+'s for Drive LB; Chip&Drive; Chip&Drive LB; Drive; D-'s for Miss Inside; No Control; Shucked to Ground; No Seal; False Start; Whiff; Looked Inside

CIN Notes: D+'s None; D-'s for No Invite/Lost Man; False Start

Other Blockers:

TEs:

Dray: IND +6-6 net 0; CIN +3-1 net +2 w/ 1D+
Cam: IND +9-10 net -1 2D+&2D-; CIN +1-2 net -1 w 1D-
Taylor:N/A

RBs: Ag continues to struggle; Crow continues to grow.

Agnew III: IND +3-9 net -6 w/ 1D+&3D-; CIN +1-3 net -2 w/ 1D-
Crow: IND +5-0 net +5 w/ 2D+; CIN 0
West: IND +5-3 net +2 w/ 1D+&1D-; CIN +2-0 net +2

WRs: Notable lack of noteworthy activity vs. Cinci.

Gordon: IND +2-0 Net +2 w/ 1D+; CIN +0-1 net -1
Gabe: IND +0-1 net -1; CIN 0
Hawk: IND +3-0 net +3 w/ 1D+; CIN 0
Benji: IND +1-0 net +1; CIN 0

Revelation(s) of the week: Reports (mine) of the death of the ZBS in CLE appear to have been premature.

Wish I could say it's completely back, but at least it has a pulse. And its Doctor appears to be Ryan Seymore. While Ryan is no Alex Mack, he is developing. He is not yet "adequate", but he is heading in that direction.

Rant of the week: God.... what a painful, pair of review weeks. On one hand a painful, essentially playoff-dream-dashing, IND loss. On the other... who else... Johnny. But enough about him... on to something that really bugs me: the Cable Cam.

Can the Cable Cam get any lower? later? In the IND game it was still in front of our line at the snap. I can not recall seeing the goddamn thing in the #1 shot as much as we did vs. IND.

In CIN game it was so low, below shoulder level at times, I thought it was either going to hit a couple players' heads or the cables would garrote a WR running to his set position.

The cam has already fallen in one stadium... luckily no one was hurt, but it's going to happen again. It offers nothing that a good, fixed end-zone cam can. It's not worth it.

Another thing...

Dear Directors;

I know you long to gaze into Johnny's eyes, but can we cut to the pre-snap while it is still "pre"? Makes it hard to note the formations.

Thanks in advance,

Tour

General Notes:

Manzealots are likely going to ask how our O-line graded as high as they did given the pressure, the sacks JM suffered. The answer is easy. The first 3.5-seconds of protection are on the line; anything more is on the QB. There was a lot on our QB.
Excited to have his new toy, Shanny unveiled a couple new plays vs. CIN. I noted no new plays vs. IND. Against CIN newbs included a read option run and a read option pass. Also for the first time a Full-house shotgun was unveiled with two WRs in the backfield. All should have played on the whiteboard.
Didn't Manziel run the read-option at A&M? He acted Sunday like he'd never seen it before in his life.
Joe Thomas moves really well downfield. That said his overall level of play is still a notch or two below that he's played at for most of the year.
Physically, Bito looked like he found his second wind these weeks. However, mentally he had a play here and there that were so far below his level that they were perplexing. Foremost was him completely ignoring a Cinci rusher over his inside gap in favor of no one.
Bito did no pulling vs. IND, but pulled twice vs CIN. Unfortunately one was on a 3rd and short and CIN was waiting for Shanny's "go to" short yardage call. Need some new stuff here, Kyle.
Among his other skills in need of improvement, Seymore can add "embellishment". After delivering chips, Ryan was held 3 or 4 times by the Colts NT keeping him from second level blocks. Gotta call more attention to these fouls, Ryan.
Greco was up and down vs. the Colts, but much more consistent vs. CIN. He even had success handling Geno one-on-one. John continues to quietly have a very good year.
Schwartz had his hands full with CIN's Carlos Dunlap, but more than held his own with very little help.
We're getting closer and closer to getting called for some illegal cuts. I saw at two vs. Colts and one vs. CIN that were not called.

Weekly Special Request:

Pistol Counts: This week saw 22 Pistols, including Power and Full house variations, in 42 plays.
QB Footwork:

Hoyer's was surprisingly good overall vs. IND, but did include some phantom pressure reactions.
JM's was surprisingly bad and also had its share of phantom induced missteps.

Mudfly

I've been waiting for this......as always, great job!

.....and thanks!

Noted the 3.5 seconds on JFF holding the ball and this week heard he held it an average of 3.6 seconds, compared to Hoyers 2.5 seconds.....a big difference....He did say he had the read, but didn't trust it...soooo, this week I am expecting some quicker decisions from him....

And nice to see Seymore grading better at Cinnci than Indy....improvement is all we can ask at this point....

Thomas is catching a little flak too lately, but after 8 yrs, you gotta expect he's gonna look human eventually.....I would expect him to decline some on the backside of his career, though the good news is that his game(in decline) is probably still better than 90% of the other tackles out there...

Tour2ma

Your welcome, Mud...

Likely an impossible dream, but hoping to keep this on the O-line. Only mentioned the QB because it impacted their perception.

Mudfly

Yep....sorry about that....lord knows we dont need another QB thread.....

Seymore is the best news in the group.....maybe he can develop and stay on through next year so we actually have a backup in waiting.....he is a natural guard, right?....so he would fill the "multiple position" cup that Pettine prefers to drink from....correct?

Opal312

I asked about Seymour and some of you said he was crap.

Mudfly

@opal312 said:
I asked about Seymour and some of you said he was crap.

because he's played like crap so far....this is the first week he's had a positive and it's just +1....

Our comments above just indicate we see improvement(which is good, right)....but we've yet to see any consisent quality play.....

Tour2ma

@mudfly said:
he is a natural guard, right?....so he would fill the "multiple position" cup that Pettine prefers to drink from....correct?

Seymore was listed as OG/C in his NE time... was OG/OT in his college days.

Seymore looks like a better candidate for inside to my eye than McDonald did just based upon body type. Maybe the numbers are starting to bear that out, but both need to get stronger.

Mudfly

@tour2ma said:

Seymore was listed as OG/C in his NE time... was OG/OT in his college days.

Seymore looks like a better candidate for inside to my eye than McDonald did just based upon body type. Maybe the numbers are starting to bear that out, but both need to get stronger.

Well et's hope this weeks performance brings more +'s......always looking for a win, but will be watching the individual performances more closely these next 2 weeks, with an eye toward the future....

Tour2ma

Yup... Folks are playing for jobs now.

OldBrownsFan

Interesting stats thanks for posting. Glad to see Ryan Seymore looks to be improving.

RoyceRolls

love these posts, are you keeping tally for a full season overview?

Tour2ma

@roycerolls said:
love these posts, are you keeping tally for a full season overview?

Keeping? No... I did do a first four summary, but nothing since.

It's a long off season...

Ibleedbrown

Hopefully all the action Seymour and McDonald have gotten will pay dividends in the future. Pretty evident we need to develop depth.

I still don't know about the Schwartz, could see an upgrade there, but l don't think we'll get it with a rookie.

Any free agent Oline guys going to be out there in the offseason worth having?

Tour2ma

Always some good UFA candidates at every O-line slot... matter of what you are willing to pay.

http://www.spotrac.com/free-agents/nfl/

When it comes to RT for us... I have every confidence that Bito could upgrade it. So shopping for an OG is an option.

Zombo

On what I thought was the key play of the game, when Kawan? Short sacked Hoyer to make it 3rd-and 21 on our last drive ... I thought I saw McDonald in there doing his best "ole" impression. Did he replace Seymour again at some point, or was someone injured?

Zombo

bbedward

Zombo said:

On what I thought was the key play of the game, when Kawan? Short sacked Hoyer to make it 3rd-and 21 on our last drive ... I thought I saw McDonald in there doing his best "ole" impression. Did he replace Seymour again at some point, or was someone injured?

Zombo

I think it was Bitonio's fault mostly. Maybe some blame on McD who I think was the center at the time.

Tour2ma

Zombo said:
On what I thought was the key play of the game, when Kawan? Short sacked Hoyer to make it 3rd-and 21 on our last drive ... I thought I saw McDonald in there doing his best "ole" impression. Did he replace Seymour again at some point, or was someone injured?

Seymore started and was injured. McD took his place.

On the play... I put the bigger fail on Bito. He'll likely get a D-, but McD is not blameless.

The CAR DT named Short was being doubled by McD and Bito; Bito left it to "help" Thomas, who needed none. Not the first time I've seen Bito do that. Greco has done it as well, but at least with Greco it is sometimes necessary to help Schwartz.