Heirarchy
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Zombo said:
Rivers and Romo are better QBs than Eli, I don't care how many SBs "he" won.
Zombo
It is an area that I debated with myself. And I came to this conclusion: Rivers and Romo are better regular season QBs.....but Eli has been better in the biggest games of all, where the other two have shrunk.
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Based on what?
Just my opinion...you asked, so I gave it....
To me, Flacco and Manning both look like average QB's who benefitted from great teams....
And Rivers has always looked excellent to me....even on less than great teams....
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I was going to put my own in, but then saw Mud's reply. I can just say I agree with him, and his reasoning. I'd also move up Romo for the same reason, even though he's known to choke in December-on football.
I see Gipper's way of rating them by QB wins, but like Z and Mud, I don't agree with it completely either. I'd rather have Rivers or Romo on my team before Eli.
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Based on what?
Just my opinion...you asked, so I gave it....
To me, Flacco and Manning both look like average QB's who benefitted from great teams....
And Rivers has always looked excellent to me....even on less than great teams....
Just my opinion...you asked, so I gave it....
To me, Flacco and Manning both look like average QB's who benefitted from great teams....
And Rivers has always looked excellent to me....even on less than great teams....
It is a nebulous area. I agree that Rivers seems to have great ability...and has had some great moments. But just not enough. But Flacco....whom I would love to put down in the third tier but cannot, has a tremendous post season record. And Eli as well. I have wanted to see Rivers have postseason moments like the other two have had....as I would like to see the Chargers win because I kinda like them....but Rivers hasn't done it.
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But Rivers is still the #6 rated passer in history.....that counts for something....isn't his fault he's been on a shit team....
Flacco and Manning aren't even close statistically....
So, to me, rating QB "quality" is more than rating how that QB's team has done....
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The thing that stands out to me is that the majority of the top tier, playoff QB's have been on the same team in the same system for many years. Aside from Luck, the most pro ready QB to come out of college in a generation, and Wilson, who has to be an anomaly and has the drive and desire to be the best under 6' QB in the league, taken in the third round. Manning going to the Broncos was lateral because he took his offense with him after already having been in it multiple years.
We have to give a guy in one system a chance to get there at some point. I don't think the answer is a star rookie first rounder unless he is Andrew Luck. That's the only way to build from the top down. Otherwise you have to do it from the trenches up.
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But Rivers is still the #6 rated passer in history.....that counts for something....isn't his fault he's been on a shit team....
Flacco and Manning aren't even close statistically....
So, to me, rating QB "quality" is more than rating how that QB's team has done....
But Rivers is still the #6 rated passer in history.....that counts for something....isn't his fault he's been on a shit team....
Passer rating means nothing....at all....in my book. Jeff Garcia is one of the all time best in passer rating.
.....but if you say passer rating means something.....then look at their postseason passer rating. Eli is way, way ahead....in fact, he is ahead of his brother.
Flacco and Manning aren't even close statistically....
In what statistic?...Flacco is younger than both Eli and Rivers, so I will only compare the latter two who both came out the same year...and of course who were traded for each other:
Attempts; Eli 5609 Rivers 4678
Completions: Eli 3308 Rivers 3025
Yard: Eli 39,753 Rivers 36,655
Rating: Eli 82.4 Rivers 95.7
INTs: Eli 185 Rivers 122
YPG: Eli 235.2 Rivers 247.7
Comp. %: Eli 59.0 Rivers 64.7
Int. %: Eli 3.3 Rivers 2.6
TD %: Eli 4.6 Rivers 5.4
Game winning drives: Eli 31 River 23
Comebacks: Eli 26 Rivers 20
Championships: Eli 2 Rivers -0-
Eli and Rivers are pretty close statiscally....but what I read is that Eli is more clutch.
I didn't do this with Romo....but it may be interesting to do so.
So, to me, rating QB "quality" is more than rating how that QB's team has done....
Really? Any football coach/player will tell you that winning is the "rating quality" they are most interested in.
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I would put Bridgewater in the Tier 3 group based on his final 6 games of the season.
He's put up numbers no one had ever done before.
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I would put Bridgewater in the Tier 3 group based on his final 6 games of the season.
He's put up numbers no one had ever done before.
I would put Bridgewater in the Tier 3 group based on his final 6 games of the season.
He's put up numbers no one had ever done before.
I put all the rookies in the bottom tier so they can work their way up.
But what are you saying about Bridgewater putting up numbers no one else has? I mean, its not like I recall him being like Dan Marino in his rookie year. What numbers are these?
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Tier 5: Midgets
Tier 5: Midgets
Wilson blows that category up though.
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But Rivers is still the #6 rated passer in history.....that counts for something....isn't his fault he's been on a shit team....
Passer rating means nothing....at all....in my book. Jeff Garcia is one of the all time best in passer rating.
.....but if you say passer rating means something.....then look at their postseason passer rating. Eli is way, way ahead....in fact, he is ahead of his brother.
Flacco and Manning aren't even close statistically....
In what statistic?...Flacco is younger than both Eli and Rivers, so I will only compare the latter two who both came out the same year...and of course who were traded for each other:
Attempts; Eli 5609 Rivers 4678
Completions: Eli 3308 Rivers 3025
Yard: Eli 39,753 Rivers 36,655
Rating: Eli 82.4 Rivers 95.7
INTs: Eli 185 Rivers 122
YPG: Eli 235.2 Rivers 247.7
Comp. %: Eli 59.0 Rivers 64.7
Int. %: Eli 3.3 Rivers 2.6
TD %: Eli 4.6 Rivers 5.4
Game winning drives: Eli 31 River 23
Comebacks: Eli 26 Rivers 20
Championships: Eli 2 Rivers -0-
Eli and Rivers are pretty close statiscally....but what I read is that Eli is more clutch.
I didn't do this with Romo....but it may be interesting to do so.
So, to me, rating QB "quality" is more than rating how that QB's team has done....
Really? Any football coach/player will tell you that winning is the "rating quality" they are most interested in.
But Rivers is still the #6 rated passer in history.....that counts for something....isn't his fault he's been on a shit team....
Passer rating means nothing....at all....in my book. Jeff Garcia is one of the all time best in passer rating.
.....but if you say passer rating means something.....then look at their postseason passer rating. Eli is way, way ahead....in fact, he is ahead of his brother.
To me, passer rating is just part of the equation, just as winning is. Its clear that some QB's get elevated just because they are on good teams and some get devalued because they are on bad teams.
Flacco and Manning aren't even close statistically....
In what statistic?...Flacco is younger than both Eli and Rivers, so I will only compare the latter two who both came out the same year...and of course who were traded for each other:
Attempts; Eli 5609 Rivers 4678
Completions: Eli 3308 Rivers 3025
Yard: Eli 39,753 Rivers 36,655
Rating: Eli 82.4 Rivers 95.7
INTs: Eli 185 Rivers 122
YPG: Eli 235.2 Rivers 247.7
Comp. %: Eli 59.0 Rivers 64.7
Int. %: Eli 3.3 Rivers 2.6
TD %: Eli 4.6 Rivers 5.4
Game winning drives: Eli 31 River 23
Comebacks: Eli 26 Rivers 20
Championships: Eli 2 Rivers -0-
Eli and Rivers are pretty close statiscally....but what I read is that Eli is more clutch.
I didn't do this with Romo....but it may be interesting to do so.
I disagree on them being close, but Ill answer on your other thread.....
So, to me, rating QB "quality" is more than rating how that QB's team has done....
Really? Any football coach/player will tell you that winning is the "rating quality" they are most interested in.
So by this theory alone, Ely - Flacco - Doug Williams - Trent Dilfer & Brad Johnson are better than Jim Kelly, Dan Marino and Fran Tarkenton ....just because they had better teams?.....
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To me, passer rating is just part of the equation, just as winning is. Its clear that some QB's get elevated just because they are on good teams and some get devalued because they are on bad teams.
OK< but there is a lot of evidence that a main reason for a team being good is because of the QB. Just look at who is in the playoffs now.
The Browns overall in my opinion are as good as the Ravens......but whatta they got that we don't got? An outstanding QB.
Eli and Rivers are pretty close statiscally....but what I read is that Eli is more clutch.
I didn't do this with Romo....but it may be interesting to do so.
I disagree on them being close, but Ill answer on your other thread.
I don't see how you can "disagree" the stats are right there.
Really? Any football coach/player will tell you that winning is the "rating quality" they are most interested in.
So by this theory alone, Ely - Flacco - Doug Williams - Trent Dilfer & Brad Johnson are better than Jim Kelly, Dan Marino and Fran Tarkenton ....just because they had better teams?.....
Eli winning it twice was not a fluke. Flacco has one of the best all time post season records in history. He is not a fluke either.
Yes, a few mediocre QBs have won SBs and a few greats have not. But Eli and Flacco do not belong in the same category as Dilfer and Johnson. Those guys were journeymen that latched onto teams that had two of the greatest defenses of all time. Flacco and Eli are not in that category. Those teams won because of them,not in spite of them.
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To me, Flacco and Manning are B-level QBs in A-level organizations. Rivers and Romo have been A-level QBs on B-level organizations.
A+
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Aaron Rogers
Drew Brees
A
Ben Roethlisberger
Phillip Rivers
Tony Romo
B+
Andrew Luck
Russell Wilson
Joe Flacco
B
Eli Manning
Matt Stafford
Cam Newton
Matt Ryan
Carson Palmer
Colin Kaepernick
Andy Dalton
C+
Alex Smith
Ryan Tannehill
Nick Foles
Jay Cutler
C
Robert Griffin
Sam Bradford
C- (placeholders but really backups)
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Brian Hoyer
D (Developmental) in order:
Derek Carr
Teddy Twatwater
Blake Bortles
Geno Smith
Zack Mettenberger/
Mike Glennon/J
EJ Manuel
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well....we can debate it forever........
you put up your list and then asked our opinion.....thats mine....but not gonna argue it to death...
You can have Flacco....or Eli......Ill take Rivers. Everyone wins!
well....we can debate it forever........
you put up your list and then asked our opinion.....thats mine....but not gonna argue it to death...
You can have Flacco....or Eli......Ill take Rivers. Everyone wins!
You take Rivers with his 4-5 postseason record.
I will take Eli with his 8-3 playoff record....or Flacco with his 10-4 playoff record.....
And I will say "Scoreboard"..
(but it does pain me to do so as like I said, I like the Chargers better than the Giants or Ravens...so I am sorry to see you lose this one....but I gotta go by the facts ma'am.)
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To me, Flacco and Manning are B-level QBs in A-level organizations. Rivers and Romo have been A-level QBs on B-level organizations.
A+
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Aaron Rogers
Drew Brees
A
Ben Roethlisberger
Phillip Rivers
Tony Romo
B+
Andrew Luck
Russell Wilson
Joe Flacco
B
Eli Manning
Matt Stafford
Cam Newton
Matt Ryan
Carson Palmer
Colin Kaepernick
Andy Dalton
C+
Alex Smith
Ryan Tannehill
Nick Foles
Jay Cutler
C
Robert Griffin
Sam Bradford
C- (placeholders but really backups)
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Brian Hoyer
D (Developmental) in order:
Derek Carr
Teddy Twatwater
Blake Bortles
Geno Smith
Zack Mettenberger/
Mike Glennon/J
EJ Manuel
Zombo said:
To me, Flacco and Manning are B-level QBs in A-level organizations. Rivers and Romo have been A-level QBs on B-level organizations.
Much more in tune with my thinking.....pretty much agree with that list!
You take Rivers with his 4-5 postseason record.
I will take Eli with his 8-3 playoff record....or Flacco with his 10-4 playoff record.....
But, you dont get the winning record, you just get the Quarterback.....as wins/losses are a team function, not a player function...this is a thread about rating QB's, not teams....right?
IE....had ANY of these players played on a different team, their win/loss records would be very different....yet they would still be the same players....sooooo....
Rivers hasn't won anything, yet people seem to think he's pretty good.....what if he went to the Giants...could he be god by now?
What if Ely went to San Diego?....would he even be in this discussion?....(I doubt it)
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Zombo said:
To me, Flacco and Manning are B-level QBs in A-level organizations. Rivers and Romo have been A-level QBs on B-level organizations.
Much more in tune with my thinking.....pretty much agree with that list!
You take Rivers with his 4-5 postseason record.
I will take Eli with his 8-3 playoff record....or Flacco with his 10-4 playoff record.....
But, you dont get the winning record, you just get the Quarterback.....as wins/losses are a team function, not a player function...this is a thread about rating QB's, not teams....right?
IE....had ANY of these players played on a different team, their win/loss records would be very different....yet they would still be the same players....sooooo....
Rivers hasn't won anything, yet people seem to think he's pretty good.....what if he went to the Giants...could he be god by now?
What if Ely went to San Diego?....would he even be in this discussion?....(I doubt it)
Much more in tune with my thinking.....pretty much agree with that list!
But, you dont get the winning record, you just get the Quarterback.....as wins/losses are a team function, not a player function...this is a thread about rating QB's, not teams....right?
IE....had ANY of these players played on a different team, their win/loss records would be very different....yet they would still be the same players....sooooo....
Rivers hasn't won anything, yet people seem to think he's pretty good.....what if he went to the Giants...could he be god by now?
What if Ely went to San Diego?....would he even be in this discussion?....(I doubt it)
You are talking about what coulda/woulda happened. I am talking about what HAS happened. When Romo and Rivers have had their opportunities to put their teams on their backs and win the big games, they have failed. Eli did not fail, he succeeded spectacularly.
So....actual accomplishment must count for something......not theoretical ability.
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