How many players away are we?

Tim Couch Pulls Out

@vagitron said:
I like PFF but its ranked using specific metrics and the steelers are ranked 11th because they don't factor potential, they rate on field performance. Shazier barely played. Jarvis Jones and stephon tuitt the same. Its what have you done for me lately and in this instance how it should be.

That's because potential is an immeasurable metric. It's completely subjective. Shazier's potential in Pittsburgh is different than his potential in Cleveland. Brady's potential in New England is different then his potential in Oakland.

Browns fans should know. We've been drafting for "potential" for years.

miktoxic

DL (2)

ILB

OLB

OL - RT

OL - C backup general depth guy

WR

QB

that's 8 players.

or yeah and TE.......9

Vagitron

@tim-couch-pulls-out said:

That's because potential is an immeasurable metric. It's completely subjective. Shazier's potential in Pittsburgh is different than his potential in Cleveland. Brady's potential in New England is different then his potential in Oakland.

Browns fans should know. We've been drafting for "potential" for years.

I agree and that's exactly why the article needs to be viewed objectively, some people here just can't seem to grasp the concept.

gftChris

@miktoxic said:

DL (2)

ILB

OLB

OL - RT

OL - C backup general depth guy

WR

QB

that's 8 players.

or yeah and TE.......9

You wouldn't count a backup as being one of your 'above-average' players playing most of the time. So 7. Add a TE, take away Jordan Cameron, so that's about right.

OldBrownsFan

Bottom line the Browns have talent. Enough talent getting the right few people in place can make all the difference.

Here is the kicker though. And you guys correct me if I am wrong (I know you will anyway lol) ...to get the pieces together it seems to be one or the other. They would have to give up the farm to get the quarterback. Or go after the other pieces on offense and defense and not go after the qb. I like the idea of going after the quantity and quality and not focus on the qb. I think if we can keep Hoyer he can be the qb we have seen he is capable of with the improvements on offense.

gftChris

@oldbrownsfan said:

Bottom line the Browns have talent. Enough talent getting the right few people in place can make all the difference.

Here is the kicker though. And you guys correct me if I am wrong (I know you will anyway lol) ...to get the pieces together it seems to be one or the other. They would have to give up the farm to get the quarterback. Or go after the other pieces on offense and defense and not go after the qb. I like the idea of going after the quantity and quality and not focus on the qb. I think if we can keep Hoyer he can be the qb we have seen he is capable of with the improvements on offense.

Not necessarily. I think Gip did a breakdown on where 'franchise' QBs are taken, and it breaks down about 50/50 top 5 picks and 'other' - from Rodgers at 25, down to Brady in the 6th via Wilson in the third. Proper research, proper development time where necessary, and you can get your QB without giving everything up.

Mudfly

@gftchris said:

I assumed the same about mack - over a season, not so great, but 'per game' elite.

Haden got a pretty big positive score in the last 10 games of the season to wipe out his negatives in the first 6 I would have thought - anybody got the numbers?

Ok...got the numbers they used to rate these guys...Haden graded out at #28 overall in the league for the season....

he earned negative grades the first 5 weeks and the last 2 weeks.....so thats 7 negs with 3 being in the red(extra bad)

he earned positive grades the other 9 weeks, with 4 being in the green(extra good)

so, in summary, 3 terrible weeks.....4 great weeks.....and 9 average weeks.....for a total score of 3.4 pts

Whats interesting is Kwaun Williams actually graded out better.....he is ranked #13, with a score of 8.7....

Sherman? (18.2).....Peterson? (-3.5).....Revis? (17.7).....

Now....to help people to see.....if we removed those first 3 really bad games from Haden and gave him 3 'just average' games, his score would adjust by "about" +11....giving him a 19.7, which would rank him near the top ....

Mack....based upon his play and scores through the first 5 games....would have finished #1 have he played the full 16 games

gftChris

@mudfly said:

Ok...got the numbers they used to rate these guys...Haden graded out at #28 overall in the league for the season....

he earned negative grades the first 5 weeks and the last 2 weeks.....so thats 7 negs with 3 being in the red(extra bad)

he earned positive grades the other 9 weeks, with 4 being in the green(extra good)

so, in summary, 3 terrible weeks.....4 great weeks.....and 9 average weeks.....for a total score of 3.4 pts

Whats interesting is Kwaun Williams actually graded out better.....he is ranked #13, with a score of 8.7....

Sherman? (18.2).....Peterson? (-3.5).....Revis? (17.7).....

Now....to help people to see.....if we removed those first 3 really bad games from Haden and gave him 3 'just average' games, his score would adjust by "about" +11....giving him a 19.7, which would rank him near the top ....

Mack....based upon his play and scores through the first 5 games....would have finished #1 have he played the full 16 games

Interesting. I'd be willing to give Haden (and the rest of the D) a pass on the first three games given that they're learning a new scheme. Last two less so.

So that puts us at only 5 players away, with Mack as well? And as for the 'but he's coming back from a long injury' nonsense, it's a broken leg, no ligament or muscle damage, there's nothing to suggest he will have lost anything from his game.

Mudfly

@gftchris said:

Interesting. I'd be willing to give Haden (and the rest of the D) a pass on the first three games given that they're learning a new scheme. Last two less so.

So that puts us at only 5 players away, with Mack as well? And as for the 'but he's coming back from a long injury' nonsense, it's a broken leg, no ligament or muscle damage, there's nothing to suggest he will have lost anything from his game.

Im with you on both......we know how good Haden is and dont need a "score" to prove it...he earned the pass by stepping up his game.....

And I think Mack will heal up too....agree that broken bones usually heal up just fine....and the word is he's healing well....

gftChris

Concerning starters, according to the PFF list, and our discussions with Mack/Haden, as well as the overriding feeling of "being happy to go with" Crowell and West, we're looking something like this in terms of 'good' players:

QB

RB - West

RB - Crowell

LT - Thomas

LG - Bitonio

C - Mack

RG - Greco

RT - Schwartz

WR - Hawkins

WR - Gabriel

WR - Austin

WR - Benjamin

TE - Barnidge

TE - Dray

DE - Winn

NT - Kitchen

DE - D. Bryant

OLB - Kruger

ILB - Dansby

ILB - Robertson/Kirksey

OLB - Mingo/Sheard

CB - Gilbert

CB - Skrine

CB - Haden

SS - Whitner

FS - Gipson

Elite

Good

Average

Aside from West/Crowell, the only place we don't have at least an 'average' player is QB. Which says it all.

Buck The Frowns

Interesting in that Hoyer may not be as bad as we think. His ineffectiveness coincided with defensive linemen being in his face ten times more often after Mack's leg was broken. I knew there was a drop off in protection but did not realize how large it was.

PFF is very informative.

Mudfly

Ok.....revised this slightly, using the PFF grades for all of them......and a little color to help my old eyes....hope this is helpful....

The numbers in parenthesis are where that players "score" ranked league wide......

QB- Hoyer

RB - West

RB - Crowell

LT - Thomas(3)

LG - Bitonio(5)

C - Mack

RG - Greco(11)

RT - Schwartz(30)

WR - Hawkins(11)

WR - Gabriel(17)

WR - Austin (42)

WR - Benjamin

TE - Barnidge

TE - Dray

DE - Winn

NT - Kitchen

DE - D. Bryant

NOTE: Our entire D line graded in the negative. Not one bright spot there.....

OLB - Kruger(14)

ILB - Dansby(8)...not top 5, but close....was on track until injured

ILB - Robertson(19)

OLB - Mingo(15) - Sheard(16)

CB - Skrine

CB - Haden

SS - Whitner

FS - Gipson....like Mack, Gipson was on track to be #1, before he got hurt....so, Im calling him elite too...

Elite = Top 5 type of player

Good = Above average(plus score in the green)

Average

below average = Below average(negative score in the red)

gftChris

I thought John Hughes graded out positively?

Mudfly

@gftchris said:
I thought John Hughes graded out positively?

actually...you're right!!.....I missed him because he didn't have enough snaps(like Mack, again).....his score was a +5.2, which if continued over 16 games, would have put him at 16.6....or #10 in the league at his position.....

gftChris

Yeah I had a feeling I'd read that a few places. Got to remember the guys coming back from injury like Hughes and A. Bryant, who looked so good before injury last year.

Tour2ma

@mudfly said:
Ok.....revised this slightly, using the PFF grades for all of them......and a little color to help my old eyes....hope this is helpful....

On behalf of all the colorblind folk in the world... Thanks a lot!

Mudfly

@tour2ma said:
On behalf of all the colorblind folk in the world... Thanks a lot!

Ha!....sorry bout that.....adjusted the color and bolded now......

BitchTits

How is it that the previous year with our dc we were nearly top 10, but this year with the same base defense, and same players our Dline is suddenly the worst on this team. Prior to the 2014 season, everyone had to think that the dline was our strength. I wonder if it has to do with our DC. Ray Horton 3-4 was top 10 for what 13 weeks, and top 12 for the season, but Jim O'Neal's 3-4 is horrible? Rubin, Taylor and Bryant were very good in 2013, and Hughes, and Wynn were solid rotational guys. Now our dline is terrible? I blame O'Neil.

Tim Couch Pulls Out

cbbacker said:
How is it that the previous year with our dc we were nearly top 10, but this year with the same base defense, and same players our Dline is suddenly the worst on this team. Prior to the 2014 season, everyone had to think that the dline was our strength. I wonder if it has to do with our DC. Ray Horton 3-4 was top 10 for what 13 weeks, and top 12 for the season, but Jim O'Neal's 3-4 is horrible? Rubin, Taylor and Bryant were very good in 2013, and Hughes, and Wynn were solid rotational guys. Now our dline is terrible? I blame O'Neil.

Horton's defense was also very bad in a number of key defense statistical categories. Just because we were giving up less YPG doesn't mean we had a good defense, it means our terrible offense gave the opponents the ball in great field position. We were ranked near the bottom of the league in average starting position for defense, if I recall correctly.

I had a whole post about this at year's end last year, about how Horton's defense wasn't nearly as good as was advertised.

Injuries also had something to do with it, as did designation changes.

LBC mike

We are about thirty guys away.