Report: Jordan Cameron rejects 6-7 million dollars from Browns.
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I liked a healthy Cameron, but no sense paying that kind of money for a TE.
That is the key. I don't mind what we pay a good player. It all works in to the cap one way or another. The key is Camerons health. The problem with concussions is once you show a history, it becomes more likely you will have them again.
I don't know if we can afford to keep a guy who is likely to sit 4-5-6 games a year following league protocol.
I like the guy, I am just not sure he is going to have much of a career moving forward. How many more concussions can he sustain before he decides it's best to retire? And who could blame him? The thought of dementia at the age of 78 is scary enough, let alone at 55. Look at Bernie, he is punch drunk and how old is he?
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You guys are forgetting... .nobody wants to play here!
You guys are forgetting... .nobody wants to play here!
^ This. This is why I don't really pay attention to the FA rumor mill. Until the Browns actually gain back credibility by placing a comptetive and sustainable product out on the field, we won't be drawing in very many big name free agents, regardless of how much coin we throw at them. The few Haynesworths in the league aside, the majority of players are not just all about money; they want to play for franchises that are stable and have a winning culture, neither of which the Browns have at the moment.
"That which can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence”. - Christopher Hitchens "The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you". - Neil deGrasse Tyson -
Yup... and maybe more.
In addition to the fact that the $6-7 mil may have been the opening offer, there's no telling why Cam turned the offer down. How many years? What percentage is guaranteed? How much base? How much incentive?
$6 mil+ is top ten TE money. Hard for me to see Cam being worth that, let alone more... at least not base.
It's actually not hard to imagine the contract being heavy but with little guaranteed due to injury concerns.
If I were in charge, that's how I'd structure it.
Cameron has the possibility of being elite when he's not injured. However, those times seem to be few and far between. Instead of a large signing bonus, medium base and performance escalators, I could see a high base with a low signing bonus and small portion guaranteed.
For the organization, this makes the most sense. You pay Cameron top-tier money if he plays all season, he's got a franchise-friendly contract if you'd like to trade him, and you release him with little dead money if he ends up sucking.
For Cameron, it's still beneficial. He's not going to get a top-ten contract in FA. That's just not going to happen. I'm sure his agent is looking for a $10 million/year contract with 75% guaranteed or some garbage. But he won't find it. So, if you really want out of Cleveland, take the franchise tight end level contract they're willing to offer you, dog it for a couple games and see who comes calling by the trade deadline.
Cameron has the possibility of being elite when he's not injured.
I am not sure that I know what you mean when you talk about the "contract being heavy". Incentive laden?
While the concussions do concern me, after three years we shouldn't have to qualify his potential. He had one great year.
Of greatest concern is that when I watch 2014 footage of Cam vs. top fluidity TEs like Graham and Davis and even Gates, and I do not see their level of fluidity. I thought I saw it in 2013, but not in 2014.
I watch 2014 footage of Cam vs. top power TEs like Gronk and Witten and Pitta and Olsen, and I do not see their level of power. No surprise as it's not really Cam's game.
I see a hybrid that's now not close enough to the top in either element to pay what he may be wanting. I see that in Thomas.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Cameron has the possibility of being elite when he's not injured.
I am not sure that I know what you mean when you talk about the "contract being heavy". Incentive laden?
While the concussions do concern me, after three years we shouldn't have to qualify his potential. He had one great year.
Of greatest concern is that when I watch 2014 footage of Cam vs. top fluidity TEs like Graham and Davis and even Gates, and I do not see their level of fluidity. I thought I saw it in 2013, but not in 2014.
I watch 2014 footage of Cam vs. top power TEs like Gronk and Witten and Pitta and Olsen, and I do not see their level of power. No surprise as it's not really Cam's game.
I see a hybrid that's now not close enough to the top in either element to pay what he may be wanting. I see that in Thomas.
Of greatest concern is that when I watch 2014 footage of Cam vs. top fluidity TEs like Graham and Davis and even Gates, and I do not see their level of fluidity. I thought I saw it in 2013, but not in 2014.
I watch 2014 footage of Cam vs. top power TEs like Gronk and Witten and Pitta and Olsen, and I do not see their level of power. No surprise as it's not really Cam's game.
I see a hybrid that's now not close enough to the top in either element to pay what he may be wanting. I see that in Thomas.
I see similar things......to me, he's just a "specialist", which is the new term for "one dimensional".....
Ive always thought of TE as a hybrid wr-ol type of player.......with the power to block and the athleticism to catch and run.....
He's always been missing the power part.....making him more of a large(slow) receiver, than a complete TE....
Of course, catching lots of long passes gets you all the popular stats.....while being a solid blocker gets you rushing yards and an average label.....
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Should have traded Cameron to the seahawks for Percy Harvin
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Should have traded Cameron to the seahawks for Percy Harvin
Should have traded Cameron to the seahawks for Percy Harvin
what would we do with Harvin?......Gabe and Hawkins are identical to him in size and speed, except they have better #'s and aren't head cases....
So, adding ANOTHER troubled smurf to our bench would help how?....
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Well I'd rather have Harvin than the concussion machine who honestly hasn't done much of anything
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But yeah you're right were probably better off with him sitting on the bench and then leaving in free agency and getting nothing for him.
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind... -
I dont remember him "sitting on the bench"...I think he got injured and, at the time, we wouldnt know that was gonna happen...so, hindsight always makes it easy to get on the right side of a decision....
Realistically......Cameron has better #'s than Harvin in every way and any GM knows that, at the time of the trade offer, Cameron was the higher quality player with greater value(by a mile)....and we needed a TE, not another small receiver....esp one who was getting dumped mid season due to "distractions"....(like we need more of THAT)....
So, without hindsight, you're saying you would give up your uninjured Pro Bowl tight end, for an undersized receiver who's team is getting ready to cut him.... and one with worse numbers?????....why???(and dont say concussion/injury, cause that hadn't happen yet)
That makes zero sense.....
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But yeah you're right were probably better off with him sitting on the bench and then leaving in free agency and getting nothing for him.
But yeah you're right were probably better off with him sitting on the bench and then leaving in free agency and getting nothing for him.
One of your dumber posts.
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You guys are forgetting... .nobody wants to play here!
^ This. This is why I don't really pay attention to the FA rumor mill. Until the Browns actually gain back credibility by placing a comptetive and sustainable product out on the field, we won't be drawing in very many big name free agents, regardless of how much coin we throw at them. The few Haynesworths in the league aside, the majority of players are not just all about money; they want to play for franchises that are stable and have a winning culture, neither of which the Browns have at the moment.
^ This. This is why I don't really pay attention to the FA rumor mill. Until the Browns actually gain back credibility by placing a comptetive and sustainable product out on the field, we won't be drawing in very many big name free agents, regardless of how much coin we throw at them. The few Haynesworths in the league aside, the majority of players are not just all about money; they want to play for franchises that are stable and have a winning culture, neither of which the Browns have at the moment.
100% inaccurate statement. The majority are about the benjamins. As a matter of fact I was listening to a discussion with either Gannon or Tucker and they made it clear that most players are going to take the highest offer. The exception to the rule sometimes is a vet who hasn't got a ring taking less to go where he might get his last hurrah.
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^ This. This is why I don't really pay attention to the FA rumor mill. Until the Browns actually gain back credibility by placing a comptetive and sustainable product out on the field, we won't be drawing in very many big name free agents, regardless of how much coin we throw at them. The few Haynesworths in the league aside, the majority of players are not just all about money; they want to play for franchises that are stable and have a winning culture, neither of which the Browns have at the moment.
100% inaccurate statement. The majority are about the benjamins. As a matter of fact I was listening to a discussion with either Gannon or Tucker and they made it clear that most players are going to take the highest offer. The exception to the rule sometimes is a vet who hasn't got a ring taking less to go where he might get his last hurrah.
100% inaccurate statement. The majority are about the benjamins. As a matter of fact I was listening to a discussion with either Gannon or Tucker and they made it clear that most players are going to take the highest offer. The exception to the rule sometimes is a vet who hasn't got a ring taking less to go where he might get his last hurrah.
yep...I agree with you Jcam....players usually go for the money....Plus, I dont know where people get the opinion no one wants to play here or we only get the left overs.....total misnomer....
If you recall....just LAST YEAR.....we(and Denver) were the hot team on day ONE......and, as far as I know, signed everyone we legitimately went after......
Dansby, Mack and Whitner were all considered "top" free agents.....yet they chose Cleveland....and fast, too
Dansby, Whitner and Hawkins were all on winning teams too....yet, they chose Cleveland.....
SO...BASED UPON LAST YEAR ALONE......we got who we wanted on DAY 1.....not some left over dregs.....
But....let's not let the facts get in the way.....carry on....
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100% inaccurate statement. The majority are about the benjamins. As a matter of fact I was listening to a discussion with either Gannon or Tucker and they made it clear that most players are going to take the highest offer. The exception to the rule sometimes is a vet who hasn't got a ring taking less to go where he might get his last hurrah.
yep...I agree with you Jcam....players usually go for the money....Plus, I dont know where people get the opinion no one wants to play here or we only get the left overs.....total misnomer....
If you recall....just LAST YEAR.....we(and Denver) were the hot team on day ONE......and, as far as I know, signed everyone we legitimately went after......
Dansby, Mack and Whitner were all considered "top" free agents.....yet they chose Cleveland....and fast, too
Dansby, Whitner and Hawkins were all on winning teams too....yet, they chose Cleveland.....
SO...BASED UPON LAST YEAR ALONE......we got who we wanted on DAY 1.....not some left over dregs.....
But....let's not let the facts get in the way.....carry on....
yep...I agree with you Jcam....players usually go for the money....Plus, I dont know where people get the opinion no one wants to play here or we only get the left overs.....total misnomer....
If you recall....just LAST YEAR.....we(and Denver) were the hot team on day ONE......and, as far as I know, signed everyone we legitimately went after......
Dansby, Mack and Whitner were all considered "top" free agents.....yet they chose Cleveland....and fast, too
Dansby, Whitner and Hawkins were all on winning teams too....yet, they chose Cleveland.....
SO...BASED UPON LAST YEAR ALONE......we got who we wanted on DAY 1.....not some left over dregs.....
But....let's not let the facts get in the way.....carry on....
I think that the "no player would come to Cleveland thing" has some validity to it.
If you gave 5 free agents exactly the same offers from Jacksonville, Cleveland, San Fran, Seattle, Miami and New York...it would be pretty tough to get any of them to come to Cleveland.
When all other variables are constant, wouldn't you rather choose a team that gets you a better chance to win a championship or a team in a larger market or nicer climate?
But...yes, it's normally all about the Benjamins.
EDIT: Technically, Mack chose Jacksonville.
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yep...I agree with you Jcam....players usually go for the money....Plus, I dont know where people get the opinion no one wants to play here or we only get the left overs.....total misnomer....
If you recall....just LAST YEAR.....we(and Denver) were the hot team on day ONE......and, as far as I know, signed everyone we legitimately went after......
Dansby, Mack and Whitner were all considered "top" free agents.....yet they chose Cleveland....and fast, too
Dansby, Whitner and Hawkins were all on winning teams too....yet, they chose Cleveland.....
SO...BASED UPON LAST YEAR ALONE......we got who we wanted on DAY 1.....not some left over dregs.....
But....let's not let the facts get in the way.....carry on....
I think that the "no player would come to Cleveland thing" has some validity to it.
If you gave 5 free agents exactly the same offers from Jacksonville, Cleveland, San Fran, Seattle, Miami and New York...it would be pretty tough to get any of them to come to Cleveland.
When all other variables are constant, wouldn't you rather choose a team that gets you a better chance to win a championship or a team in a larger market or nicer climate?
But...yes, it's normally all about the Benjamins.
EDIT: Technically, Mack chose Jacksonville.
When all other variables are constant, wouldn't you rather choose a team that gets you a better chance to win a championship or a team in a larger market or nicer climate?
But...yes, it's normally all about the Benjamins.
Id agree that.....all things being equal contractually.....then, yes, Id choose to be on a good team or in nice weather every single time.....of course, who wouldnt..?
But, THAT is the point.....all the other variables are never constant, so money wins .....almost every time....and, this year, we have a LOT more to spend than most of the "good teams".....
I also think Framer isn't the type to get in a bidding war to score the overpaid big name superstar, when he can sign very good-excellent players at a much more cap friendly price.....and those, less than high profile guys, are gonna be available to teams like us in spades...
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He's probably gone. Wants to leave the circus.
http://dawgpounddaily.com/2015/01/26/report-jordan-cameron-turns-6-7-million-browns/
He's probably gone. Wants to leave the circus.
http://dawgpounddaily.com/2015/01/26/report-jordan-cameron-turns-6-7-million-browns/
i really hate to tell you this, and you are correct about cameron wanting to leave, but if we have another yr or 2 of the same shit, you will see joe thomas, probably haden and others do what dq and phil dawson did...really, i think even though these guys were nice guys in that they never complained publicly, inside they were probably bitching up a storm...you'd have to be friggin crazy not to if you want a chance to win a championship...cause it ain't happenin here in good ole cleveee..unfortunetly..
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100% inaccurate statement. The majority are about the benjamins. As a matter of fact I was listening to a discussion with either Gannon or Tucker and they made it clear that most players are going to take the highest offer. The exception to the rule sometimes is a vet who hasn't got a ring taking less to go where he might get his last hurrah.
yep...I agree with you Jcam....players usually go for the money....Plus, I dont know where people get the opinion no one wants to play here or we only get the left overs.....total misnomer....
If you recall....just LAST YEAR.....we(and Denver) were the hot team on day ONE......and, as far as I know, signed everyone we legitimately went after......
Dansby, Mack and Whitner were all considered "top" free agents.....yet they chose Cleveland....and fast, too
Dansby, Whitner and Hawkins were all on winning teams too....yet, they chose Cleveland.....
SO...BASED UPON LAST YEAR ALONE......we got who we wanted on DAY 1.....not some left over dregs.....
But....let's not let the facts get in the way.....carry on....
yep...I agree with you Jcam....players usually go for the money....Plus, I dont know where people get the opinion no one wants to play here or we only get the left overs.....total misnomer....
If you recall....just LAST YEAR.....we(and Denver) were the hot team on day ONE......and, as far as I know, signed everyone we legitimately went after......
Dansby, Mack and Whitner were all considered "top" free agents.....yet they chose Cleveland....and fast, too
Dansby, Whitner and Hawkins were all on winning teams too....yet, they chose Cleveland.....
SO...BASED UPON LAST YEAR ALONE......we got who we wanted on DAY 1.....not some left over dregs.....
But....let's not let the facts get in the way.....carry on....
i don't know if these guys knew what they were getting into when they signed with the browns....i do believe this team now has more problems than it ever had before...there is no disipline on this team...friggin belechek who have kicked manziel in the ass for his antics...firggin gordon, he'd be gone long time ago..yet here they are...listening to 680 the fan here in atlanta today, one of the hosts is from cleve so he had 2 guys on from cleveland also that cover the browns...they say pettine is already under the gun for his lack of disipline and the stupidity of him putting manziel in the final 2 games or so...there is also now an ongoing nfl investigation of plays being called from ownership to the field during games...they say that is why shanny left...he knows all about it but does not want to get involved..all i know is i'm glad we got shanny..at least he's with a better organization...they also said it is now known that the little midget did not know the plays at texas a and m also...and he partied alot...me thinks these fa's we signed last yr are probably thinking to themselves....wtf....no doubt about it...
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Better hurry up and make a few more quasi-coherent posts before you run out of gold spray paint to huff.
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When all other variables are constant, wouldn't you rather choose a team that gets you a better chance to win a championship or a team in a larger market or nicer climate?
But...yes, it's normally all about the Benjamins.
Id agree that.....all things being equal contractually.....then, yes, Id choose to be on a good team or in nice weather every single time.....of course, who wouldnt..?
But, THAT is the point.....all the other variables are never constant, so money wins .....almost every time....and, this year, we have a LOT more to spend than most of the "good teams".....
I also think Framer isn't the type to get in a bidding war to score the overpaid big name superstar, when he can sign very good-excellent players at a much more cap friendly price.....and those, less than high profile guys, are gonna be available to teams like us in spades...
But, THAT is the point.....all the other variables are never constant, so money wins .....almost every time....and, this year, we have a LOT more to spend than most of the "good teams".....
We parted ways there. It may be wishful thinking, but I think there are variables that override money, not millions, but a few points:
- Playing time
- Coaches
- Stability
- Franchise direction
- Players
- Taxes
- Roots
Maybe most of this list of factors can be summed up as "job satisfaction".
The second last is an Ohio hindrance vs. TX/ FLA, but an advantage vs. CA/NY.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
But yeah you're right were probably better off with him sitting on the bench and then leaving in free agency and getting nothing for him.
One of your dumber posts.
One of your dumber posts.
Ok. How did he contribute in the 2014 season? Where did he spend the majority of it?
What are we getting in the way of compensation for him (most likely) leaving in free agency vs what we had invested in him?
Early man walked away as modern man took control. Their minds weren't all the same and to conquer was their goal. So He built his great empires and he slaughtered his own kind, and he died a confused man and killed himself in his own mind...
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