Open Letter *from* Josh Gordon
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Brady's Ball Sack said:
Umm, 2016.
It's a suspension, not a death sentence..
A suspension is when you are missing games, and after a set amount you can just return. Josh Gordon CANNOT return in 2016. He must apply to be re-instated. They use the term suspension very loosely here, he can be refused entry back into the league in 2016. That's not a suspension, and that isn't a guarantee he will be back in 2016. If he so much as gets a parking ticket, is photographed with Manziel this year, he could see his "suspension" as you put it added to by simply refusing his re-instatement.
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Brady's Ball Sack said:
Yo. Momma a boy living in the basement... Someone is ringing the bell at the convince store you work at, better get on it....
I love when I see a gay wannabe response like this from some douchebag trolling another teams board. I'll bet you're a doctor right? That's why you've got so much time on your hands to troll the board of a different, non related, non rival football team's fan forum.
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am i the only one that thinks george is a decent guy just trying to fit in?
hell we blasted all the JF fans worse than him and they were ten times the asshole that most of you think he is. need i say we kept a winner in texasAG? i see all the other ran for the hills.
i think of buffalo as a sister city of cleveland (i use sister as a female denomination like you would call a ship). blue collar, cold weather good hearted people who take it on the chin every winter and are still there to talk about it in july when the sun finally comes out.
both team's seasons ended in a bad place because of different reasons. i don't think he's gone overboard as some stooler fans that we tolerate as constant members here now do and have.
maybe he's just bored and needs a drink. i know i am and do.
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am i the only one that thinks george is a decent guy just trying to fit in?
hell we blasted all the JF fans worse than him and they were ten times the asshole that most of you think he is. need i say we kept a winner in texasAG? i see all the other ran for the hills.
i think of buffalo as a sister city of cleveland (i use sister as a female denomination like you would call a ship). blue collar, cold weather good hearted people who take it on the chin every winter and are still there to talk about it in july when the sun finally comes out.
both team's seasons ended in a bad place because of different reasons. i don't think he's gone overboard as some stooler fans that we tolerate as constant members here now do and have.
maybe he's just bored and needs a drink. i know i am and do.
am i the only one that thinks george is a decent guy just trying to fit in?
hell we blasted all the JF fans worse than him and they were ten times the asshole that most of you think he is. need i say we kept a winner in texasAG? i see all the other ran for the hills.
i think of buffalo as a sister city of cleveland (i use sister as a female denomination like you would call a ship). blue collar, cold weather good hearted people who take it on the chin every winter and are still there to talk about it in july when the sun finally comes out.
both team's seasons ended in a bad place because of different reasons. i don't think he's gone overboard as some stooler fans that we tolerate as constant members here now do and have.
maybe he's just bored and needs a drink. i know i am and do.
I am kind of new posting here so I won't say anything except some times it is good to get a viewpoint/perspective from outside Cleveland.
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Brady's Ball Sack said:
Care to trade Manziel and Gilbert for Watkins today?
manziel sure. gilbert, he's gonna be good.
watkins, evans and a couple other look like great wr prospects, but look at the lions and raiders. all they did for years is draft wr and it still didn't put them over the top.
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Brady's Ball Sack said:
Thanks Toxic, you are a decent person.
The insults, all of the disparaging remarks? I take with a grain of salt. Actually, its pretty damn entertaining.
Its like Howard Stern, I'm tuning in to see what some of you guys say next... Look through my posts, I never start the decent into shit talking.
I consider insults a sign of mental weakness and a general lack of intelligence. I don't live in that world, but again, I like watching Jerry Springer, and stupidity can be pretty damn entertaining.
I generally feel sorry for those stuck from their own limitations and take this shit so seriously.. It's just football,and we all want to party with a winner. I guess it's natural to be pissed off at me, and I get that, but I do know who has the smarts here, and there are a few who talk with some intelligence and can see past the clouds and drama....
Cysco, dude, dump the hate. You will be better off. You tossed the ball, I simply vollied it back.. WTF do you Expect? I mean really?
You are probably a decent guy that's a little misguided by a little home town emotion.
TCPO, picks do not always translate into a sure thing. Don't act like you "won" something with a draft pick.
Look at your past drafting record for the proof. What did you win last year with the 1st rounders, except a pile of headaches??? The year before, and before that? You parlayed one bust for another this past year..
The Bills have Watkins, and you have our pick. Care to trade Manziel and Gilbert for Watkins today?
May that pick help the Browns, may Sammy go on to be an all pro if we ever get a guy who can throw. And, may you realize that none of us have control over the team, but know that your actions and the way you treat people here are a reflection of YOUR character.. Proud?
calfoxwc,
The last thing I need is self esteem. Trust me on that one.
Look at the name Zombo gave me because he couldn't handle playing on a level playing field. Even Hoorta thinks that was a punk ass move. I think it reflects a lot more poorly on Zombo than me.
If I were in need of self esteem, I wouldn't be laughing from little thoughts out of your head...
My popcorn is out of the mic, so fire away...
We did win something. We won two extra draft picks. You won a WR. It remains to be seen who ultimately won but, in my book, getting the guy we wanted, plus another opportunity for a top talented player, plus another opportunity for a foundational player always trumps talking one single player.
We werent one player away from winning a Super Bowl. Obviously someone in the Bills organization felt that they were, and that's why the trade happened.
Our drafting history prior to last season have absolutely nothing to do with this because we had an entirely different staff, different FO, and different owner. That's like comparing two different teams.
You may enjoy talking shit, but the fact remains that the Bills draft was relative garbage. Outside of Watkins, you really only drafted two players who contributed in Brown and Henderson, and Henderson basically won the job by default. Kouandjio is seemingly a bust.
I'd take our draft over Buffalo's any day of the week and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of Buffalo who disagrees with that statement.
But...but...but...Johnny Manziel...
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Zombo said:
If you post in this thread again your next post will be in September ... I'm just telling you.
Zombo
Here's hoping you are a man of your word.
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Brady's Ball Sack said:
Insert "bottom line" and maybe the lights will go on.
It doesn't matter about his past. How he's been coddled, or how stunted his is.. He is your property, what are the Browns to do?
If you think you should cut him because he's immature and I'll equipped because of being stunted, by all means, cut him.
So, that leaves the Browns with whom at WR???
I'm telling you that there will be 31 teams waiting in line to claim him, and attempt to fix his problems because his upside is spectacular.
PS mo, I live two hours from Cleveland.
In a ghetto called buffalllllooooo.
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Brady's Ball Sack said:
Hey..fukwad, then you'd post also calls it Hoorta.
If you would have graduated high school, you would have been able to comprehend what we wrote. Until then, just watch and listen.
Go back inside your welfare trailer and watch a little more Springer. Maybe apply to Everest while you are at it...
meh... now if you added pissburgh then you would have fightin words George C
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I wish Gordon the best. Many here didn't seem to read at all what he said and just spewed the normal trash out of their mouths. I agree with what much of that letter said and I hope he's part of the team in the future.
As for the Bills guy, idk why so many here are do hostile. Actually, I guess I'm not surprised. Many here shut out anything not pro browns. Those a lot of times are the first to turn on our players
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am i the only one that thinks george is a decent guy just trying to fit in?
hell we blasted all the JF fans worse than him and they were ten times the asshole that most of you think he is. need i say we kept a winner in texasAG? i see all the other ran for the hills.
i think of buffalo as a sister city of cleveland (i use sister as a female denomination like you would call a ship). blue collar, cold weather good hearted people who take it on the chin every winter and are still there to talk about it in july when the sun finally comes out.
both team's seasons ended in a bad place because of different reasons. i don't think he's gone overboard as some stooler fans that we tolerate as constant members here now do and have.
maybe he's just bored and needs a drink. i know i am and do.
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Brady's Ball Sack said:
Thanks Toxic, you are a decent person.
The insults, all of the disparaging remarks? I take with a grain of salt. Actually, its pretty damn entertaining.
Its like Howard Stern, I'm tuning in to see what some of you guys say next... Look through my posts, I never start the decent into shit talking.
I consider insults a sign of mental weakness and a general lack of intelligence. I don't live in that world, but again, I like watching Jerry Springer, and stupidity can be pretty damn entertaining.
I generally feel sorry for those stuck from their own limitations and take this shit so seriously.. It's just football,and we all want to party with a winner. I guess it's natural to be pissed off at me, and I get that, but I do know who has the smarts here, and there are a few who talk with some intelligence and can see past the clouds and drama....
Cysco, dude, dump the hate. You will be better off. You tossed the ball, I simply vollied it back.. WTF do you Expect? I mean really?
You are probably a decent guy that's a little misguided by a little home town emotion.
TCPO, picks do not always translate into a sure thing. Don't act like you "won" something with a draft pick.
Look at your past drafting record for the proof. What did you win last year with the 1st rounders, except a pile of headaches??? The year before, and before that? You parlayed one bust for another this past year..
The Bills have Watkins, and you have our pick. Care to trade Manziel and Gilbert for Watkins today?
May that pick help the Browns, may Sammy go on to be an all pro if we ever get a guy who can throw. And, may you realize that none of us have control over the team, but know that your actions and the way you treat people here are a reflection of YOUR character.. Proud?
calfoxwc,
The last thing I need is self esteem. Trust me on that one.
Look at the name Zombo gave me because he couldn't handle playing on a level playing field. Even Hoorta thinks that was a punk ass move. I think it reflects a lot more poorly on Zombo than me.
If I were in need of self esteem, I wouldn't be laughing from little thoughts out of your head...
My popcorn is out of the mic, so fire away...
We did win something. We won two extra draft picks. You won a WR. It remains to be seen who ultimately won but, in my book, getting the guy we wanted, plus another opportunity for a top talented player, plus another opportunity for a foundational player always trumps talking one single player.
We werent one player away from winning a Super Bowl. Obviously someone in the Bills organization felt that they were, and that's why the trade happened.
Our drafting history prior to last season have absolutely nothing to do with this because we had an entirely different staff, different FO, and different owner. That's like comparing two different teams.
You may enjoy talking shit, but the fact remains that the Bills draft was relative garbage. Outside of Watkins, you really only drafted two players who contributed in Brown and Henderson, and Henderson basically won the job by default. Kouandjio is seemingly a bust.
I'd take our draft over Buffalo's any day of the week and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of Buffalo who disagrees with that statement.
But...but...but...Johnny Manziel...
We did win something. We won two extra draft picks. You won a WR. It remains to be seen who ultimately won but, in my book, getting the guy we wanted, plus another opportunity for a top talented player, plus another opportunity for a foundational player always trumps talking one single player.
We werent one player away from winning a Super Bowl. Obviously someone in the Bills organization felt that they were, and that's why the trade happened.
Our drafting history prior to last season have absolutely nothing to do with this because we had an entirely different staff, different FO, and different owner. That's like comparing two different teams.
You may enjoy talking shit, but the fact remains that the Bills draft was relative garbage. Outside of Watkins, you really only drafted two players who contributed in Brown and Henderson, and Henderson basically won the job by default. Kouandjio is seemingly a bust.
I'd take our draft over Buffalo's any day of the week and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of Buffalo who disagrees with that statement.
But...but...but...Johnny Manziel...
I might be mistaken, but we only received one pick from Buffalo. We swapped our picks last year, which isn't really getting one, because we lost one also, and we got there 2015 pick. I believe that means we only got 1 pick from them. Right now I have to disagree, that no.19 pick we aquired cost us Watkins. Right now you have to see that we lost that trade currently. Basically we got Gilbert and a player yet to be named for Watkins who was great this year. Still have time though.
I would say we still had a better draft, Bitonio, and West are very good, and we still have a couple years for Gilbert, and Johnny. We even added Crowell, and a couple other undrafted guys who had a decent year for us.
But sorry currently we are losing the trade with Buffalo only
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We did win something. We won two extra draft picks. You won a WR. It remains to be seen who ultimately won but, in my book, getting the guy we wanted, plus another opportunity for a top talented player, plus another opportunity for a foundational player always trumps talking one single player.
We werent one player away from winning a Super Bowl. Obviously someone in the Bills organization felt that they were, and that's why the trade happened.
Our drafting history prior to last season have absolutely nothing to do with this because we had an entirely different staff, different FO, and different owner. That's like comparing two different teams.
You may enjoy talking shit, but the fact remains that the Bills draft was relative garbage. Outside of Watkins, you really only drafted two players who contributed in Brown and Henderson, and Henderson basically won the job by default. Kouandjio is seemingly a bust.
I'd take our draft over Buffalo's any day of the week and I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone outside of Buffalo who disagrees with that statement.
But...but...but...Johnny Manziel...
I might be mistaken, but we only received one pick from Buffalo. We swapped our picks last year, which isn't really getting one, because we lost one also, and we got there 2015 pick. I believe that means we only got 1 pick from them. Right now I have to disagree, that no.19 pick we aquired cost us Watkins. Right now you have to see that we lost that trade currently. Basically we got Gilbert and a player yet to be named for Watkins who was great this year. Still have time though.
I would say we still had a better draft, Bitonio, and West are very good, and we still have a couple years for Gilbert, and Johnny. We even added Crowell, and a couple other undrafted guys who had a decent year for us.
But sorry currently we are losing the trade with Buffalo only
We received a 2015 first and a 2015 fourth. And then we got Gilbert. That's two future players and one current player for one sub-1000 yard receiver.cbbacker said:
I might be mistaken, but we only received one pick from Buffalo. We swapped our picks last year, which isn't really getting one, because we lost one also, and we got there 2015 pick. I believe that means we only got 1 pick from them. Right now I have to disagree, that no.19 pick we aquired cost us Watkins. Right now you have to see that we lost that trade currently. Basically we got Gilbert and a player yet to be named for Watkins who was great this year. Still have time though.
I would say we still had a better draft, Bitonio, and West are very good, and we still have a couple years for Gilbert, and Johnny. We even added Crowell, and a couple other undrafted guys who had a decent year for us.
But sorry currently we are losing the trade with Buffalo only
Regardless of how "great" Watkins was, the Bills didn't make the playoffs. Even if Gilbert is only passable, we still won that trade.
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Brady's Ball Sack said:
TCPO/Mohican, the Browns drafted him. If you had a better system of vetting players, maybe you would have picked someone else. Don't take this the wrong way, the Bills are no better. The fact remains that he is your pick. It's easy to dump him, and then you have nothing.. Work it out...
There's very little that "vetting" can do to correctly predict future decisions or behaviors.
Each prospect is subjected to a psychological evaluation along with their physical evaluation. Each prospect background is checked. Each prospect has a dossier that details exactly who they are, where they came from, what they do, why they do it, and what they'll likely do in the future. But it's not perfect science. If it were, we wouldn't have draft busts.
The fact remains that he is an investment, and some investments don't pay off. Holding onto a player that could be detrimental to the future success of your team just because you invested in him isn't always the smartest move. In fact, it's almost never the smartest move.
If we let Gordon go and he goes off to become an eventual superstar, that's great for him. That doesn't mean he would have done it here. That's what people don't realize. It's not "oh, stupid Cleveland...releasing a HOFer because of a little pot." It could be that releasing him is what makes him a superstar. It could be that getting in with a different team, a different locker room, is what causes him to make changes. When you make a choice, there's no way of knowing what the opposite choice could have yielded.
Obviously, there are bad influences in the Cleveland Browns locker room. Personally, I wonder if Johnny is at the root of this year's troubles with both Gordon and Gilbert. It's obviously not fair to blame someone for another person's antics, but knowing that Gordon and Manziel are buddies in their down-time, it's not that hard to image that Gordon is being put in situations he may not have been put in with other teammates this year. Having one player with known decision issues and another with known motivation issues is already a risk. Dropping a polarizing party boy who's known for his extracurricular activities into the middle of that seems like a recipe for disaster.
I'll go on record as saying I think releasing Manziel could very well be what helps Gordon and Gilbert get back on track. Build a locker room of strong, professional players with great work ethic that all buy into the system, then you can start to take a risk and drop a few talented "bad seeds" in there one at a time. Just like New England used to do. That bad seed is either going to assimilate and rise to the level of his peers or the locker room will reject him and he'll flame out. Either way, you're not compromising your team's integrity. When you start trying to add questionable character players en masse, that's when things get hairy.
Drop a droplet of blood in a cup of water, it quickly disappears. Squirt a bunch of blood in that same cup of water, it starts to tint the water.
Damn good post
There's very little that "vetting" can do to correctly predict future decisions or behaviors.
Each prospect is subjected to a psychological evaluation along with their physical evaluation. Each prospect background is checked. Each prospect has a dossier that details exactly who they are, where they came from, what they do, why they do it, and what they'll likely do in the future. But it's not perfect science. If it were, we wouldn't have draft busts.
The fact remains that he is an investment, and some investments don't pay off. Holding onto a player that could be detrimental to the future success of your team just because you invested in him isn't always the smartest move. In fact, it's almost never the smartest move.
If we let Gordon go and he goes off to become an eventual superstar, that's great for him. That doesn't mean he would have done it here. That's what people don't realize. It's not "oh, stupid Cleveland...releasing a HOFer because of a little pot." It could be that releasing him is what makes him a superstar. It could be that getting in with a different team, a different locker room, is what causes him to make changes. When you make a choice, there's no way of knowing what the opposite choice could have yielded.
Obviously, there are bad influences in the Cleveland Browns locker room. Personally, I wonder if Johnny is at the root of this year's troubles with both Gordon and Gilbert. It's obviously not fair to blame someone for another person's antics, but knowing that Gordon and Manziel are buddies in their down-time, it's not that hard to image that Gordon is being put in situations he may not have been put in with other teammates this year. Having one player with known decision issues and another with known motivation issues is already a risk. Dropping a polarizing party boy who's known for his extracurricular activities into the middle of that seems like a recipe for disaster.
I'll go on record as saying I think releasing Manziel could very well be what helps Gordon and Gilbert get back on track. Build a locker room of strong, professional players with great work ethic that all buy into the system, then you can start to take a risk and drop a few talented "bad seeds" in there one at a time. Just like New England used to do. That bad seed is either going to assimilate and rise to the level of his peers or the locker room will reject him and he'll flame out. Either way, you're not compromising your team's integrity. When you start trying to add questionable character players en masse, that's when things get hairy.
Drop a droplet of blood in a cup of water, it quickly disappears. Squirt a bunch of blood in that same cup of water, it starts to tint the water.
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We received a 2015 first and a 2015 fourth. And then we got Gilbert. That's two future players and one current player for one sub-1000 yard receiver.cbbacker said:
I might be mistaken, but we only received one pick from Buffalo. We swapped our picks last year, which isn't really getting one, because we lost one also, and we got there 2015 pick. I believe that means we only got 1 pick from them. Right now I have to disagree, that no.19 pick we aquired cost us Watkins. Right now you have to see that we lost that trade currently. Basically we got Gilbert and a player yet to be named for Watkins who was great this year. Still have time though.
I would say we still had a better draft, Bitonio, and West are very good, and we still have a couple years for Gilbert, and Johnny. We even added Crowell, and a couple other undrafted guys who had a decent year for us.
But sorry currently we are losing the trade with Buffalo only
Regardless of how "great" Watkins was, the Bills didn't make the playoffs. Even if Gilbert is only passable, we still won that trade.
We received a 2015 first and a 2015 fourth. And then we got Gilbert. That's two future players and one current player for one sub-1000 yard receiver.
Regardless of how "great" Watkins was, the Bills didn't make the playoffs. Even if Gilbert is only passable, we still won that trade.
Sorry bud, not going to argue with you, we didn't get the pick for Gilbert. We swapped picks, If i give you a dollar, and you give me a dollar, and i agree to give you a dolloar next year, and 40Cents next year, how many dollars do you have? did you get 2 dollars in the first year? Nope. you will have $1.40 the following year, which is 2 items. You seem to forget we gave out 1 pick. It's not addition by subtraction. I didn't know we got the 4th round, that's fine, but sorry we didn't "get" that pick, we already had a pick #4. We gave up 1, for another, and we added a 2015 1, and 4.
And I won't even bother arguing about whether Gilbert, or Watkins was better, we both know the answer. The fact that Watkins is light years ahead of Gilbert, show you really don't know value, or talent. Maybe we can add a good guy at #19 with the pick we added, but that remains to be seen.
As I said currently they are winning the trade. They got Watkins, we got a #19 pick. Would you trade the #4 pick this year for the #19 and a 4? My bet is no. Meaning they won the trade currently.
When it comes to draft picks, it isn't quantity, it's quality. Adding 2 players for their 1 doesn't mean anything yet. BTW we didn't make the playoffs either, so I don't know what that comment is supposed to mean. Going to bold the key word, it's very possible we win this trade, but we are NOT winning it currently.
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We received a 2015 first and a 2015 fourth. And then we got Gilbert. That's two future players and one current player for one sub-1000 yard receiver.
Regardless of how "great" Watkins was, the Bills didn't make the playoffs. Even if Gilbert is only passable, we still won that trade.
Sorry bud, not going to argue with you, we didn't get the pick for Gilbert. We swapped picks, If i give you a dollar, and you give me a dollar, and i agree to give you a dolloar next year, and 40Cents next year, how many dollars do you have? did you get 2 dollars in the first year? Nope. you will have $1.40 the following year, which is 2 items. You seem to forget we gave out 1 pick. It's not addition by subtraction. I didn't know we got the 4th round, that's fine, but sorry we didn't "get" that pick, we already had a pick #4. We gave up 1, for another, and we added a 2015 1, and 4.
And I won't even bother arguing about whether Gilbert, or Watkins was better, we both know the answer. The fact that Watkins is light years ahead of Gilbert, show you really don't know value, or talent. Maybe we can add a good guy at #19 with the pick we added, but that remains to be seen.
As I said currently they are winning the trade. They got Watkins, we got a #19 pick. Would you trade the #4 pick this year for the #19 and a 4? My bet is no. Meaning they won the trade currently.
When it comes to draft picks, it isn't quantity, it's quality. Adding 2 players for their 1 doesn't mean anything yet. BTW we didn't make the playoffs either, so I don't know what that comment is supposed to mean. Going to bold the key word, it's very possible we win this trade, but we are NOT winning it currently.
cbbacker said:
Sorry bud, not going to argue with you, we didn't get the pick for Gilbert. We swapped picks, If i give you a dollar, and you give me a dollar, and i agree to give you a dolloar next year, and 40Cents next year, how many dollars do you have? did you get 2 dollars in the first year? Nope. you will have $1.40 the following year, which is 2 items. You seem to forget we gave out 1 pick. It's not addition by subtraction. I didn't know we got the 4th round, that's fine, but sorry we didn't "get" that pick, we already had a pick #4. We gave up 1, for another, and we added a 2015 1, and 4.
And I won't even bother arguing about whether Gilbert, or Watkins was better, we both know the answer. The fact that Watkins is light years ahead of Gilbert, show you really don't know value, or talent. Maybe we can add a good guy at #19 with the pick we added, but that remains to be seen.
As I said currently they are winning the trade. They got Watkins, we got a #19 pick. Would you trade the #4 pick this year for the #19 and a 4? My bet is no. Meaning they won the trade currently.
When it comes to draft picks, it isn't quantity, it's quality. Adding 2 players for their 1 doesn't mean anything yet. BTW we didn't make the playoffs either, so I don't know what that comment is supposed to mean. Going to bold the key word, it's very possible we win this trade, but we are NOT winning it currently.
They traded a first round draft pick to us to switch #4 and #8
We don't know yet if Watkins is a #4 pick, Odell Beckham certainly looks a lot better.
And we don't know if Justin Gibert was worth a #8 pick, he had a wasted first year but looks to be athletically gifted.
Would I trade them Justin Gilbert and our #19 first round pick for Watkins today? No. Watkins looks like a mid-round pick to me, and we already have one of those ... plus Gilbert.
Zombo
Zombo
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cbbacker said:
Sorry bud, not going to argue with you, we didn't get the pick for Gilbert. We swapped picks, If i give you a dollar, and you give me a dollar, and i agree to give you a dolloar next year, and 40Cents next year, how many dollars do you have? did you get 2 dollars in the first year? Nope. you will have $1.40 the following year, which is 2 items. You seem to forget we gave out 1 pick. It's not addition by subtraction. I didn't know we got the 4th round, that's fine, but sorry we didn't "get" that pick, we already had a pick #4. We gave up 1, for another, and we added a 2015 1, and 4.
And I won't even bother arguing about whether Gilbert, or Watkins was better, we both know the answer. The fact that Watkins is light years ahead of Gilbert, show you really don't know value, or talent. Maybe we can add a good guy at #19 with the pick we added, but that remains to be seen.
As I said currently they are winning the trade. They got Watkins, we got a #19 pick. Would you trade the #4 pick this year for the #19 and a 4? My bet is no. Meaning they won the trade currently.
When it comes to draft picks, it isn't quantity, it's quality. Adding 2 players for their 1 doesn't mean anything yet. BTW we didn't make the playoffs either, so I don't know what that comment is supposed to mean. Going to bold the key word, it's very possible we win this trade, but we are NOT winning it currently.
They traded a first round draft pick to us to switch #4 and #8
We don't know yet if Watkins is a #4 pick, Odell Beckham certainly looks a lot better.
And we don't know if Justin Gibert was worth a #8 pick, he had a wasted first year but looks to be athletically gifted.
Would I trade them Justin Gilbert and our #19 first round pick for Watkins today? No. Watkins looks like a mid-round pick to me, and we already have one of those ... plus Gilbert.
Zombo
Zombo
Zombo said:
They traded a first round draft pick to us to switch #4 and #8
We don't know yet if Watkins is a #4 pick, Odell Beckham certainly looks a lot better.
And we don't know if Justin Gibert was worth a #8 pick, he had a wasted first year but looks to be athletically gifted.
Would I trade them Justin Gilbert and our #19 first round pick for Watkins today? No. Watkins looks like a mid-round pick to me, and we already have one of those ... plus Gilbert.
Zombo
Zombo
At least 1 person understands that the trade was their 2015 1 and 4, for us to swap picks. We didn't gain a 1st round pick in 2014, we replaced one. We already had a pick. They gave us the 2015 picks for us to swap with them. So we only acquired 2 picks.
I also will concede, that Gilbert could be good, but that means you have to concede that Watkins could be come elite. Which is more likely?
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Athletically gifted means nothing, JaMarcus Russel was athletically gifted. Gilbert didn't just look bad, he was one of the worst corner backs on our roster, while Watkins was a dynamic playmaker. Saying that Watkins is a mid round player at best is just laughable. Yes ODB was better, but that doesn't mean that Watkins was bad. He was better then Evans, and every other WR not named Odell Becham Jr.
Honestly I can't even debate with someone that actually thought Watkins is a mid round player. That to me shows how little people on this board know about football. I know that I sound rude, but I am not trying to be. No one can deny the talent he has, and how well he did. I am unsure of what people expected of a #4 receiver. He had one of the better seasons for a rookie WR.
You guys seem to forget, he was the #1 receiver on that team, he saw all the double teams, and coverage assignements designed to take him out of games. Even with that he had a very good year as a rookie on a team with offensive issues. I mean he had E.J Manuel as his QB for what the first 1/4 of the season? He is worse then Hoyer. I saw nothing of the sort from Gilbert, I saw constant penalties, a player who looked totally lost, and a player who was a downright liability on defense. And the absolute worst part of Gilbert? He didn't even have to cover players with the talent of Watkins. Haden covered the best receiver, so he was being destroyed by 2nd and 3rd team wideouts. He lost his job to an undrafted FA. Did Watkins lose his job to a undrafted FA? Nope. Watkins played week in and out against the top defender from every team. Gilbert got schooled by the 2nd and third best.
You can say what you want, but there isn't a team in this league that would take Gilbert and #19 for #4 pick in any draft in the last 10 years. You may, but that's on you. There isn't another team in the league that would agree with you. Want to know how I can say i "know" that? because we would JUMP at the chance to move Gilbert and #19 to jump to 4. We would maybe even give up Gilbert, #12, and #19 for move to #4. So we will see if any offers come in for our #19 and Gilbert to move to a top 5 pick. I bet we don't make that move, you up for it?
I am sure this comes of as rude, as I said I am not trying to be, but there isn't a nice way to question why you feel Watkins is a mid round pick, and some of the other points you try to make. Hopefully you didn't take this as rude, and if you did, I apologize.
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We received a 2015 first and a 2015 fourth. And then we got Gilbert. That's two future players and one current player for one sub-1000 yard receiver.
Regardless of how "great" Watkins was, the Bills didn't make the playoffs. Even if Gilbert is only passable, we still won that trade.
Sorry bud, not going to argue with you, we didn't get the pick for Gilbert. We swapped picks, If i give you a dollar, and you give me a dollar, and i agree to give you a dolloar next year, and 40Cents next year, how many dollars do you have? did you get 2 dollars in the first year? Nope. you will have $1.40 the following year, which is 2 items. You seem to forget we gave out 1 pick. It's not addition by subtraction. I didn't know we got the 4th round, that's fine, but sorry we didn't "get" that pick, we already had a pick #4. We gave up 1, for another, and we added a 2015 1, and 4.
And I won't even bother arguing about whether Gilbert, or Watkins was better, we both know the answer. The fact that Watkins is light years ahead of Gilbert, show you really don't know value, or talent. Maybe we can add a good guy at #19 with the pick we added, but that remains to be seen.
As I said currently they are winning the trade. They got Watkins, we got a #19 pick. Would you trade the #4 pick this year for the #19 and a 4? My bet is no. Meaning they won the trade currently.
When it comes to draft picks, it isn't quantity, it's quality. Adding 2 players for their 1 doesn't mean anything yet. BTW we didn't make the playoffs either, so I don't know what that comment is supposed to mean. Going to bold the key word, it's very possible we win this trade, but we are NOT winning it currently.
cbbacker said:
Sorry bud, not going to argue with you, we didn't get the pick for Gilbert. We swapped picks, If i give you a dollar, and you give me a dollar, and i agree to give you a dolloar next year, and 40Cents next year, how many dollars do you have? did you get 2 dollars in the first year? Nope. you will have $1.40 the following year, which is 2 items. You seem to forget we gave out 1 pick. It's not addition by subtraction. I didn't know we got the 4th round, that's fine, but sorry we didn't "get" that pick, we already had a pick #4. We gave up 1, for another, and we added a 2015 1, and 4.
And I won't even bother arguing about whether Gilbert, or Watkins was better, we both know the answer. The fact that Watkins is light years ahead of Gilbert, show you really don't know value, or talent. Maybe we can add a good guy at #19 with the pick we added, but that remains to be seen.
As I said currently they are winning the trade. They got Watkins, we got a #19 pick. Would you trade the #4 pick this year for the #19 and a 4? My bet is no. Meaning they won the trade currently.
When it comes to draft picks, it isn't quantity, it's quality. Adding 2 players for their 1 doesn't mean anything yet. BTW we didn't make the playoffs either, so I don't know what that comment is supposed to mean. Going to bold the key word, it's very possible we win this trade, but we are NOT winning it currently.
I see the way you're looking at it, but that's not exactly the case. In terms of net gain, sure, we only gained two players. But the trade itself was literally #4 for #8, a 2015 1st, and a 2015 4th.
If we had never traded with them, we would have just had one player (Gilbert, Watkins, whomever). Now, we will have three. If I gave you a player, and you give me three players, I'll have three new players and you'll have one new player. That's commonly called a "three-for-one". If I give you a Camaro and you give me a Mustang, a bag of footballs and $65 dollars...you've gained a Mustang, a bag of football and $65 dollars.
From an equative standpoint, it's x = y + z + a, where X is Watkins, Y is Gilbert, Z is a 2015 1st, and A is the 2015 4th. For the Bills to "win" the trade, x will have to be greater than the sum of y, z and a (Gilbert, two as of yet unspecified players).
I never claimed Gilbert was better than Watkins at the current point in time. What I did say is that, even if Gilbert and the other players are merely passable starters, that the Browns will have won the trade - because we'll have three starters to their one. Obviously, there is some give in this situation, because "starter" is a relative term. If Watkins goes on to become a perennial Pro Bowler, then I may have to readjust my claim. But, as it currently stands, the Browns have won the trade simply because the potential of each of the two yet undrafted players is limitless. They could draft Reggie White and Randy Moss with those two picks, or package them in a deal that lands them a franchise quarterback, or use them to trade back again and land two more first round picks. The possibilities are endless right now. Until actual players fill that role, the Browns have won the trade.
As for quantity over quality, it's both. Drafting one franchise player and 6 garbage players year after year is the same as drafting 10 mediocre players. Neither will find a team success in the NFL. It's about recognizing what stage you're at and what you would need. Taking Watkins would have done nothing for us this year, so we took a deal that allowed us to add quality players at other positions of need.
My previous playoff comment is intended to show that adding Watkins didn't help them make the playoffs immediately, which is normally the case when trading up to get a player. You are correct, we didn't make the playoffs either...however we've only received one-third of that trade payout (or none of it, according to you).
You don't sound rude, you're just a novice debater. You make allegations and assumptions that are untrue and can leave you in a terrible position for a rebuttal. You make good points but then follow them up with absolutes that present others with opportunities to counterpoint.
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Zombo said:
They traded a first round draft pick to us to switch #4 and #8
We don't know yet if Watkins is a #4 pick, Odell Beckham certainly looks a lot better.
And we don't know if Justin Gibert was worth a #8 pick, he had a wasted first year but looks to be athletically gifted.
Would I trade them Justin Gilbert and our #19 first round pick for Watkins today? No. Watkins looks like a mid-round pick to me, and we already have one of those ... plus Gilbert.
Zombo
Zombo
At least 1 person understands that the trade was their 2015 1 and 4, for us to swap picks. We didn't gain a 1st round pick in 2014, we replaced one. We already had a pick. They gave us the 2015 picks for us to swap with them. So we only acquired 2 picks.
I also will concede, that Gilbert could be good, but that means you have to concede that Watkins could be come elite. Which is more likely?
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Athletically gifted means nothing, JaMarcus Russel was athletically gifted. Gilbert didn't just look bad, he was one of the worst corner backs on our roster, while Watkins was a dynamic playmaker. Saying that Watkins is a mid round player at best is just laughable. Yes ODB was better, but that doesn't mean that Watkins was bad. He was better then Evans, and every other WR not named Odell Becham Jr.
Honestly I can't even debate with someone that actually thought Watkins is a mid round player. That to me shows how little people on this board know about football. I know that I sound rude, but I am not trying to be. No one can deny the talent he has, and how well he did. I am unsure of what people expected of a #4 receiver. He had one of the better seasons for a rookie WR.
You guys seem to forget, he was the #1 receiver on that team, he saw all the double teams, and coverage assignements designed to take him out of games. Even with that he had a very good year as a rookie on a team with offensive issues. I mean he had E.J Manuel as his QB for what the first 1/4 of the season? He is worse then Hoyer. I saw nothing of the sort from Gilbert, I saw constant penalties, a player who looked totally lost, and a player who was a downright liability on defense. And the absolute worst part of Gilbert? He didn't even have to cover players with the talent of Watkins. Haden covered the best receiver, so he was being destroyed by 2nd and 3rd team wideouts. He lost his job to an undrafted FA. Did Watkins lose his job to a undrafted FA? Nope. Watkins played week in and out against the top defender from every team. Gilbert got schooled by the 2nd and third best.
You can say what you want, but there isn't a team in this league that would take Gilbert and #19 for #4 pick in any draft in the last 10 years. You may, but that's on you. There isn't another team in the league that would agree with you. Want to know how I can say i "know" that? because we would JUMP at the chance to move Gilbert and #19 to jump to 4. We would maybe even give up Gilbert, #12, and #19 for move to #4. So we will see if any offers come in for our #19 and Gilbert to move to a top 5 pick. I bet we don't make that move, you up for it?
I am sure this comes of as rude, as I said I am not trying to be, but there isn't a nice way to question why you feel Watkins is a mid round pick, and some of the other points you try to make. Hopefully you didn't take this as rude, and if you did, I apologize.
cbbacker said:
Hopefully you didn't take this as rude, and if you did, I apologize.
Rude? No. Dense? Maybe...
You said we swapped firsts and gained a 2015 first. It was pointed out that we also gained a 2015 4th. So you were wrong, even admitted you were, but went on as if you had something right... something aboutus not net gaining two firsts... something no one was arguing.
A comment was made about Watkin's draft worth that I thought was clearly meant to be taken that he was a mid-first round talent, not a high-first rounder. Set you off on a long dissertation about him not being a mid-rounder, as in a 4th rounder or thereabouts.
I think you are seeing arguments not made and arguing past the parties disagreeing with you. Then you claim your arguments have the support of the entire NFL... which means nothing.
Just some observations from someone who also thought Watkins was the best WR in the 2105 draft (and still does), but threw him over the second Khalil Mack was available at #4. Even after that, I ended up having no issues with the trade Farmer made with the Bills.
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