2015 - FA / Draft / Notes
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If you want a short yardage guy in the late rounds I would go with Texas's RB Malcolm Brown. Very underrated due to really crappy OL (59 total team offensive yards against Ark. in the bowl) in front of him. Excellent hard hitting straight ahead runner.
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In what scenario would you guys consider drafting Tevin Coleman? Perhaps third round?
I wouldn't mind if our first four picks looked like:
1-12. DT - Danny Shelton
1-19. OT - TJ Clemmings (or La'el Collins)
2. WR - Dorial Green-Beckham
3. RB - Tevin Coleman
I don't believe he'll fall past the third round. I actually think he'll end up being a better runningback than Melvin Gordon and on the same level as a healthy Todd Gurley.
Honestly, I dont see any scenario where we pick a running back......unless it's a FB in the later rounds...
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Took a full game look at Eli Harold. I can compare him quite well to Mingo.
The good:
Wears #7. Long arms, long legs, good initial burst with a long stride. He's willing to fight to hold the point of attack against the run and shows the ability to get around the corner or setup a decent inside move. Great motor and willing to run as far as it takes to track down a ball carrier. Lean frame, looks like he could pack on 5-10 pounds without hurting his first step. Appears to flow adequately in space when dropping into coverage and has plenty of work from the 2 point. Uses his hands effectively enough when getting around or by a tackle.
The bad: Much like Mingo, he can be blocked rather easy and once he's engaged, shedding the block or using his hands to begin with are an issue. A couple of times against Louisville he was taken out of a play to his side by a TE. Has trouble converting speed to power and is ineffective on any interiors stunts or twists. Doesn't use his hands naturally nor violently to stay upright to prevent being cut. He doesn't have the first step I saw Mingo have at LSU, although Harold plays a ton from the 2 point stance and Mingo had his hand in the ground. He might actually be a liability in run defense his first year or two. In his coverage drops he really doesn't get much depth or width when necessary, can often find himself staring into the backfield and not effecting passing lanes to his curl/flat responsibility.
I wouldn't invest a 2nd round pick unless you want him to be a pure, situational pass rusher while he develops the rest of his game. 3rd round pick would be a bit more wise but I have a feeling he'll be a combine workout warrior (outside of the bench)
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DraftScout has Harold as a late 1st/ early 2nd prospect. Their assessment is very close to yours. Sounds like a 4-3 OLB.
"Harold is a quick starter off the ball with natural burst out of his stance and an active play style to attack blockers. With quick footwork, he is a pesky defender to block in space and does a nice job with his upper body to extend and lock out, putting linemen on their heels. Harold has a lean build with minimal bulk on his frame and needs to develop his functional power for the next level to better match up on the edges as a run defender. He also tends to rush too upright, negating his flexibility or leverage, allowing blockers to engulf and overwhelm him. Harold leaves Virginia with an impressive resume for a two-year starter, including 141 tackles, 36.5 tackles for loss, 17.5 sacks and four fumble recoveries. - The Sports Xchange"
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=123342&draftyear=2015&genpos=OLB
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I will disagree with their 1st/2nd round investment. At least, from the stand point of the Browns. Maybe for a team that can afford to have him play sparingly for the first couple years, sure.
In regards to playing a Will spot in a more 43 look, I don't think he can do that either without serious coaching, patience and time. Even then I still think he'd be out of position. Like I said, he's very, very comparable to Mingo in many respects.
I'm going to take a longer look at Collins (CB) out of LSU. From what I know, great physical skills that you would want in a press corner. I know Tharold Simon was drafted rather late and has been a decent addition to the Seahawks roster when he's been called on. Seeing as how we're letting Buster walk and praying Gilbert can man the #2 spot, I'd fully expect a mid-to late round DB being taken in this draft. I'm also going to try and watch Durell Eskridge (S) out of Syracuse tonight.
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About Collins... he has FS size. 6'2 200lbs. He doesn't play with a low center like you see most great CB's. Opens his hips too early quite a bit and overall doesn't look comfortable squared up. He's naturally too far back in his stance when he is, meaning his balance is routinely off as well. At LSU he was asked to play quite a bit of off coverage from what I saw. That clearly isn't his game as he can't flip his hips in space, turn and run. Stiff in that particular regard. When he does stay in his stance, he turns to run a bit too late... which isn't terrible considering his height, arm length and straight line speed. He just doesn't seem to trust himself in with those aspects. His counterpart across the field jumped off the screen a couple times while I was watching him.
However, he is very physical for a corner. Made two great tackles on Melvin Gordon in open space and is not at all afraid to come up and support the edges against the run or fill against a tight end or tackle. Pretty decent awareness, instincts, nose for the ball. Great arm length which he can (and does) use to his advantage.
The thing that separates this kid from being Sherman is that he opens his hips just a bit too quick and doesn't trust his ability to attack the ball in the air on downfield throws. You're 6'2 bud, you can get those hands up and make it a nightmare to put a ball over the top. If Collins is open for coaching and application, you might have a very good boundary corner with all the physical abilities to press effectively. Depending on who is getting their hands on him, the physical skills say he could go mid 3rd. The combine might drop him a bit lower if his lateral agility is subpar. I've seen where people mention moving him to center field. I don't understand if people that work for the media or teams have ever tried that themselves. Playing safety is a totally different monster than CB. I don't think the recognition of play concepts is at the level it needs to be for him to make the switch.
I was going to watch Eskridge but then Kevin White out of TCU caught my eye... I've only watched just a few minutes, but I"m highly intrigued already.
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You make Collins sound like a good SS candidate.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
You make Collins sound like a good SS candidate.
I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a good SS candidate, but I wasn't very impressive with Durell Eskridge. Collins might just be a better prospect, but not by a whole hell of a lot.
When I think of a SS in this defense, I think of Ward and Donte. Not afraid to come up and lay the lumber. Neither of those guys are in that mold, even for how physical Collins is at the CB spot.
Kevin White (TCU)... on the other hand. He looks like a smaller version of Haden in pads. He's the size of Buster, but plays much bigger than he is. Good wingspan, comfortable in off coverage, sound footwork, smooth back peddle with good balance because of his size. The thing that really sticks out to me that makes me draw the Haden comparison so much is 1) the willingness to come up and tackle 2) his ability to drive on the ball. That is was separates good corners from average corners. Your ability to see something, plant your foot and attack quickly. Joe has that, so does Kevin. I like what I see. I'm going to be watching this kid intently during the combine.
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If Kevin White is there at 12, I want him. Dez Bryant-like.
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If Kevin White is there at 12, I want him. Dez Bryant-like.
If Kevin White is there at 12, I want him. Dez Bryant-like
My analysis is Kevin White the TCU DB.
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I realize that; it happens to be poor placement of my post. I was reading from the previous page of posting when I posted & I didn't hit "Quote" to reply to anyone, so my post got bumped to the end & just happened to be there for your good analysis of DB Kevin White from TCU.
I appreciate your in-depth analysis scouting, tiamat63. I remember stories of Phil Savage valuing input from Browns believers like yourself, who inform themselves by scouting and have analysis ability garnered from a lifelong love of the Game.
I would much rather have DB Kevin White than Collins from LSU for the Browns. It would be great for the franchise to hit on DB in the 2nd-4th round of this draft, finding an immediate #3Corner for 2015, with upside to possibly start opposite Haden in the future. Hit a little closer to home why Justin Gilbert needs to get on the ball and be in a hurry to find his game. DB Kevin White of TCU would be a very good middle round pick, from your analysis.
My point was, WR Kevin White of WVU is can't miss talent at #12. He's a hungry go-getter, future star WR who just snatches balls with strong hands & frame. Comparable out of college to Dez Bryant & a younger Anquan Boldin. If he is there at #12, I want the best of rare talent available over a DT we'd select more to 'keep up with the Joneses' in the Division. My mindset for the draft: "Who gives the Division trouble," rather than, 'who keeps us up with the Joneses.' If we're going D at #12, I want a sure-thing disruptor; by that I mean a body, motor, & mind with a consistency that translates as leadership, not lean & freak athletics or a huge mass that sometimes is motivated that's made some plays on film that stick in our mind.
At #12, I do not want a project-potential disruptor over WR Kevin White. I think if White is not there, you look for an edge disruptor first, before falling back on DT Danny Shelton or OL Sherff. This is a big pick at #12 for the franchise.... missing a transcending Pro (a Pro-Bowler) would set the franchise back, looking 5 years on in the Division. Every year doesn't need to be a hit with pick one, but this year DOES. Especially this year.
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So which edge disruptor did you have in mind?
And were we to pick Scherff at all let alone at 12, then I might have to buy a new big screen...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
So which edge disruptor did you have in mind?
And were we to pick Scherff at all let alone at 12, then I might have to buy a new big screen...
So which edge disruptor did you have in mind?
And were we to pick Scherff at all let alone at 12, then I might have to buy a new big screen...
i'd run out and get the UHD curved joint from samsung.
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I realize that; it happens to be poor placement of my post. I was reading from the previous page of posting when I posted & I didn't hit "Quote" to reply to anyone, so my post got bumped to the end & just happened to be there for your good analysis of DB Kevin White from TCU.
I appreciate your in-depth analysis scouting, tiamat63. I remember stories of Phil Savage valuing input from Browns believers like yourself, who inform themselves by scouting and have analysis ability garnered from a lifelong love of the Game.
I would much rather have DB Kevin White than Collins from LSU for the Browns. It would be great for the franchise to hit on DB in the 2nd-4th round of this draft, finding an immediate #3Corner for 2015, with upside to possibly start opposite Haden in the future. Hit a little closer to home why Justin Gilbert needs to get on the ball and be in a hurry to find his game. DB Kevin White of TCU would be a very good middle round pick, from your analysis.
My point was, WR Kevin White of WVU is can't miss talent at #12. He's a hungry go-getter, future star WR who just snatches balls with strong hands & frame. Comparable out of college to Dez Bryant & a younger Anquan Boldin. If he is there at #12, I want the best of rare talent available over a DT we'd select more to 'keep up with the Joneses' in the Division. My mindset for the draft: "Who gives the Division trouble," rather than, 'who keeps us up with the Joneses.' If we're going D at #12, I want a sure-thing disruptor; by that I mean a body, motor, & mind with a consistency that translates as leadership, not lean & freak athletics or a huge mass that sometimes is motivated that's made some plays on film that stick in our mind.
At #12, I do not want a project-potential disruptor over WR Kevin White. I think if White is not there, you look for an edge disruptor first, before falling back on DT Danny Shelton or OL Sherff. This is a big pick at #12 for the franchise.... missing a transcending Pro (a Pro-Bowler) would set the franchise back, looking 5 years on in the Division. Every year doesn't need to be a hit with pick one, but this year DOES. Especially this year.
At #12, I do not want a project-potential disruptor over WR Kevin White. I think if White is not there, you look for an edge disruptor first, before falling back on DT Danny Shelton or OL Sherff. This is a big pick at #12 for the franchise.... missing a transcending Pro (a Pro-Bowler) would set the franchise back, looking 5 years on in the Division. Every year doesn't need to be a hit with pick one, but this year DOES. Especially this year.
I can assure you that Shelton is no project. He'll be working on his conditioning, yes. However with the loss of Rub, Danny would start day 1 and his presence would be felt immediately.
There is no "edge disruptor" worthy of a top 20 pick, IMHO. Schreff I'm praying is snatched up by the Gmen that was the Browns can avoid the pitfall of taking him, let alone an offensive lineman that high.
Don't get me wrong, I like White. If his hands stay true in the NFL I think he could be the next Fitzgerald. I'm actually hoping his 40 time is subpar, but has a good 10/20 yard split and shuttle. He would fall down draft boards and we could pick him up. Again, just like Fitz, he won't be a vertical threat in the sense of speed. However he'll simply out muscle you to the ball.
If you're asking me whom I'm taking at 12 between White or Shelton? Its Danny 8 days a week. There is plenty of WR talent in this draft to go around.
I appreciate your in-depth analysis scouting, tiamat63. I remember stories of Phil Savage valuing input from Browns believers like yourself, who inform themselves by scouting and have analysis ability garnered from a lifelong love of the Game
Phil Savage road the coat tails of Ozzie Newsome. The man had one good pick he can call all his in Joe Thomas. Of course the Browns need at OT after 06 was so god damn glaring you'd have to have been Ray Charles not to see it. Beyond that, a failure to identify talent or manage his picks (See: Quinn, Brady) the only reason he or anyone else would listen to the general public is either that they're truly over their head - or- enjoy paying lip service to said fans.
So if that's the case, Phil has both the excuse he "listened to the fans" and the inability to realize that you don't want to listen to their input very much. As its my knowledge point, 95% of fans in general have very little idea what they're watching with any detail when the action on the field occurs.
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I might be able to live with that trade for Winston as McShay rates him as the best player in the entire Draft - even with his warts . . . but damn, that's an awful lot when we have so many holes to fill.
Side note: (McQuistan) Not a huge loss, but it does create yet another hole to fill.
No... no loss whatsoever. McQ was a waste of space. Painter and Bowie were in storage and should both emerge in 2015. One replaces McQ and the other should send Seymore packing.
On Winston... if I had the #1 overall I would not hesitate to spend it on Winston. But trading up he gets even more expensive. Harder call in my mind. I assume the third #1 you mention would be our 2016? That makes it really hard...
And as WSH found out, if MM goes #1 to the Bucs, then that #2 pick gets to be awfully pricey as well.
So Gilbert all of sudden has his shit together ?
Browns just are not going to offer Shrine what the open market will. A least not with Gilbert, Desir and K'Waun on the roster. Thought has to be that at least one will step up.
No... no loss whatsoever. McQ was a waste of space. Painter and Bowie were in storage and should both emerge in 2015. One replaces McQ and the other should send Seymore packing.
On Winston... if I had the #1 overall I would not hesitate to spend it on Winston. But trading up he gets even more expensive. Harder call in my mind. I assume the third #1 you mention would be our 2016? That makes it really hard...
And as WSH found out, if MM goes #1 to the Bucs, then that #2 pick gets to be awfully pricey as well.
Browns just are not going to offer Shrine what the open market will. A least not with Gilbert, Desir and K'Waun on the roster. Thought has to be that at least one will step up.
Too freakin' busy . . .
I keep forgetting about the OL (Bowie ?) we poached from Seattle - went looking for a Browns IR list and never really found a good one, I'm thinking we may have someone else stashed on IR but I haven't had the time to dig into it.
Yeah, both #1's this year plus #1 next year to move up, might well take more.
Lot of Red flags coming out on Winston for Off-Field issues, but some Analysts have him as the best Athlete in this Draft.
I like his potential, but I'm still a little gun shy after the Manziel experience we just went through.
Pettine said they're going to try to bring Skrine back, but it might be tough, he's going to be a hot commodity in FA.
Interesting comment from one of Pettine's interviews yesterday :
Daryl Ruiter @RuiterWrongFAN · 18h 18 hours ago Pettine described CB Justin Gilbert's issues as "very personal" - had good meeting with him before he left town for offseason #Browns
Maybe there's some hope for Gilbert, the kids got talent, just needs to get his head squared away.
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So Gilbert all of sudden has his shit together ?
And Buster does????.....Ill admit he looked better this year, but I wouldnt say "good"......
Skrine damn, the flood gates are opening in C-town to get out Just when you started to play well.. He was Burnt like toast for 2years
Actually, he was burnt plenty of times this year too......gave up 8 tds and had massive penalties.....dude is flailing out there.....
Browns just are not going to offer Shrine what the open market will. A least not with Gilbert, Desir and K'Waun on the roster. Thought has to be that at least one will step up.
Definitely, with 3 players all of whom have higher upsides than Skrine, I think they'll play the odds that one(or 2 even) can step in and handle the job as well or better than Skrine......
And Buster does????.....Ill admit he looked better this year, but I wouldnt say "good"......
Actually, he was burnt plenty of times this year too......gave up 8 tds and had massive penalties.....dude is flailing out there.....
Definitely, with 3 players all of whom have higher upsides than Skrine, I think they'll play the odds that one(or 2 even) can step in and handle the job as well or better than Skrine......
Saw a comment from Pettine a few days back about Skrine, basically said everyone loved him and that they way they are asking him to play (aggressively) is why he pulls so many Flags.
The kid is the second fastest player on the Team (behind Benji), and to my eye he's gotten better every year . . . I remember that first year he really looked bad pulling back to back penalties.
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You make Collins sound like a good SS candidate.
I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a good SS candidate, but I wasn't very impressive with Durell Eskridge. Collins might just be a better prospect, but not by a whole hell of a lot.
When I think of a SS in this defense, I think of Ward and Donte. Not afraid to come up and lay the lumber. Neither of those guys are in that mold, even for how physical Collins is at the CB spot.
Kevin White (TCU)... on the other hand. He looks like a smaller version of Haden in pads. He's the size of Buster, but plays much bigger than he is. Good wingspan, comfortable in off coverage, sound footwork, smooth back peddle with good balance because of his size. The thing that really sticks out to me that makes me draw the Haden comparison so much is 1) the willingness to come up and tackle 2) his ability to drive on the ball. That is was separates good corners from average corners. Your ability to see something, plant your foot and attack quickly. Joe has that, so does Kevin. I like what I see. I'm going to be watching this kid intently during the combine.
I wouldn't go as far as to say he's a good SS candidate, but I wasn't very impressive with Durell Eskridge. Collins might just be a better prospect, but not by a whole hell of a lot.
When I think of a SS in this defense, I think of Ward and Donte. Not afraid to come up and lay the lumber. Neither of those guys are in that mold, even for how physical Collins is at the CB spot.
Kevin White (TCU)... on the other hand. He looks like a smaller version of Haden in pads. He's the size of Buster, but plays much bigger than he is. Good wingspan, comfortable in off coverage, sound footwork, smooth back peddle with good balance because of his size. The thing that really sticks out to me that makes me draw the Haden comparison so much is 1) the willingness to come up and tackle 2) his ability to drive on the ball. That is was separates good corners from average corners. Your ability to see something, plant your foot and attack quickly. Joe has that, so does Kevin. I like what I see. I'm going to be watching this kid intently during the combine.
Physical, aggressive CB sounds right up Pettines lane.
We picked up another DB yesterday :
Mary Kay Cabot @MaryKayCabot · 21h 21 hours ago #Browns signed DB Varmah Sonie today. 5-8, 180, in first season out of Northern Iowa. Spent 2 weeks of on Bucs' practice squad in '14.
A bit smallish for my tastes, sounds a like Trufant from last year, just not durable enough to make it to the Season though.
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Some quick tidbits of interest :
Mary Kay Cabot @MaryKayCabot · 21h 21 hours ago Arizona State guard Jamil Douglas said he met with the #Browns at the Senior Bowl and here at the Combine.#nfldraft
Mary Kay Cabot @MaryKayCabot · 18h 18 hours ago Oklahoma TE Blake Bell said he talked to #Browns at East-West Shrine game and at Combine, informally. Has watched J. Cameron film #nfldraft
Daniel Jeremiah @MoveTheSticks · 2h 2 hours ago Mariota bigger than expected, Winston smaller than expected. Both 6'3 3/4
Uh oh :
Mary Kay Cabot @MaryKayCabot · 3m 3 minutes ago #Browns Farmer said he's done a cost-benefit analysis on trading up for a QB
Daryl Ruiter @RuiterWrongFAN · 19h 19 hours ago Pettine confirms Barkevious Mingo had successful surgery on shoulder #Browns
Daryl Ruiter @RuiterWrongFAN · 19h 19 hours ago Pettine said re-signing TE Jordan Cameron "being discussed" but w/cap "it's gotta be the right player 1st and it's gotta be the right price"
Pettine on Shanahan :
Daryl Ruiter @RuiterWrongFAN · 16h 16 hours ago "The bottom line is essentially that Kyle didn’t want to be a part of the organization. You can use the word quit. Those are the facts"
Daryl Ruiter @RuiterWrongFAN · 16h 16 hours ago "If a guy didn't want to be a part of it, I wasn't going to waste time on it. I didn't need to go through 32 points or whatever it was"
Daryl Ruiter @RuiterWrongFAN · 11m 11 minutes ago "There is a plan, there are names and there is a pecking order" - Farmer on QB plan
Hmmmm :
Mary Kay Cabot @MaryKayCabot · 18m 18 minutes ago #Browns on QB pool in free agency: "Just because a player didn't'' succeed in one place doesn't mean he won't succeed in another.
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Hit my quote limit on the above message ?
Dane Brugler @dpbrugler · Feb 17 Marcus Mariota & Brett Hundley almost identical on 3rd down this year: MM: 60-91 (65.9%) 4:1 TD:INT ratio BH: 60-91 (65.9%) 5:1 TD:INT ratio
Dane Brugler @dpbrugler · 23h 23 hours ago TE Maxx Williams has said he has official meetings with the Browns, Broncos and several others
Dane Brugler @dpbrugler · 3h 3 hours ago WR Nelson Agholor has met with only one team: Cleveland Browns
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