Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Time to reiterate my 3-way?
Browns to TB (or TN): #12 and #19
Philly to Browns: Cox (DT) and Foles
Philly to TB (or TN): #12, #19 and #20
TB (or TN) to Philly: #1 (or #2)
"More likely" to occur with TN at the #2 slot assuming TB takes Jameis #1 overall, then:
- TN rides with Mettenberger and has three top 20 picks to fill needs in a draft deep in OL, DL and WR.
- Chip gets his guy.
- We get an elite, proven at the Pro level, DT and a QB awaiting confirmation of his franchise promise.
Time to reiterate my 3-way?
Browns to TB (or TN): #12 and #19
Philly to Browns: Cox (DT) and Foles
Philly to TB (or TN): #12, #19 and #20
TB (or TN) to Philly: #1 (or #2)
"More likely" to occur with TN at the #2 slot assuming TB takes Jameis #1 overall, then:
- TN rides with Mettenberger and has three top 20 picks to fill needs in a draft deep in OL, DL and WR.
- Chip gets his guy.
- We get an elite, proven at the Pro level, DT and a QB awaiting confirmation of his franchise promise.
This is very intriguing.
Cleveland would receive their possible franchise quarterback as well as a talented player for the DT/DE position, just like if they had taken these two positions with these two picks.
Philadelphia gets their quarterback to replace Foles and loses only one draft pick, allowing them to replace their DT/DE vacancy in the second round.
Tennessee receives a boatload of first round picks which they could turn into three very solid players. (Although I'd personally turn one of those first round picks into an extra second round pick this year, an extra second round next year, and maybe a depth player?)
I could see Tennessee agreeing to three first round picks this year. I could see Cleveland agreeing to Foles and Cox. I don't think I could see Philly agreeing to losing Cox, Foles and a first round pick solely for Mariota. At the very least, I could see a few later round picks also thrown into this mix just for balancing.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
Time to reiterate my 3-way?
Browns to TB (or TN): #12 and #19
Philly to Browns: Cox (DT) and Foles
Philly to TB (or TN): #12, #19 and #20
TB (or TN) to Philly: #1 (or #2)
"More likely" to occur with TN at the #2 slot assuming TB takes Jameis #1 overall, then:
- TN rides with Mettenberger and has three top 20 picks to fill needs in a draft deep in OL, DL and WR.
- Chip gets his guy.
- We get an elite, proven at the Pro level, DT and a QB awaiting confirmation of his franchise promise.
Time to reiterate my 3-way?
Browns to TB (or TN): #12 and #19
Philly to Browns: Cox (DT) and Foles
Philly to TB (or TN): #12, #19 and #20
TB (or TN) to Philly: #1 (or #2)
"More likely" to occur with TN at the #2 slot assuming TB takes Jameis #1 overall, then:
- TN rides with Mettenberger and has three top 20 picks to fill needs in a draft deep in OL, DL and WR.
- Chip gets his guy.
- We get an elite, proven at the Pro level, DT and a QB awaiting confirmation of his franchise promise.
If I'm TN I'd take that trade in a New York minute.
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I never read that. Link?
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Zombo said:
My problem would be this: Why would we trade these guys at their all-time lowest value?
Gordon: Let him sit out for a year. That's a no-brainer. He'll be worth more next year when he can actually play for somebody and has made it through his suspension. No is trading anything for a guy that needs to serve out a suspension, and it does not cost us anything to keep him around.
Manziel: The kid is sitting in rehab. Totally unproven player with two horrible starts under his belt who is probably going to be battling as a recovering alcoholic/addict for the rest of his career. Nobody wants him now. You bring him back, you let him prove his sobriety, play some preseason, than maybe he is worth something.
You are trying to trade guys that are practically untradeable right now. They both need to come back and get on the football field again and show promise before we can use either as trade bait.
Zombo
The problem with this is that you're assuming this is their all-time low when it's actually not.
If Gordon get in trouble again, that's his all time low. We won't be able to get anything for him because he'll no longer be in the league. If Manziel comes back and proves to be equally as bad as he looked last year, that will be his all time low.
You'd like to see Manziel come back and prove something to up his value. That's logical. There's three things that can happen in that scenario:
-Manziel comes back and plays great
-Manziel comes back and plays mediocre
-Manziel comes back and plays like garbage.
If Manziel proves something, we'd likely just keep him. His value to us as a player would be greater than as a tradeable asset.
If Manziel comes back and plays mediocre football, it would be impossible for us to command anything of huge value for him. An undersized serviceable quarterback who recently went to rehab? We'd, at best, get a third rounder..and that's stretching it.
If Manziel comes back and continues to play like garbage, he's completely useless to us. There's a zero percent chance he has any value in this situation.
It's my personal belief that Manziel's value now, at this current point in time, is greater than it would be in two of the above scenarios. "Immensely talented quarterback coming back from personal issues in a new setting" is an infinitely more intriguing sell than "undersized serviceable player with proven backup potential". Attempting to trade him now when there's at least some semblance of mystique around his potential gives us our best value proposition.
These guys are "untradeable" to 90% of the league, but there are teams who might still take a chance on them. From an outsider's perspective, the best chance we'd have at unloading Manziel would be to Dallas or Philly. Dallas because I don't give Jerry any credit and Philly for the aforementioned reasons.
As for Gordon, I think it's more of a no-brainer to trade him now rather than risk him doing something stupid during his suspension. Regardless of where he goes, he's not costing a team anything this season and he has a whole year to sit on his ass...meaning it's likely he could get into trouble yet again.
Personally, I'm just growing tired of the shit-talking pessimists who contribute nothing to this board other than bitching and complaining. This is my attempt to get actual intelligent people like yourself to have conversation, since this requires a little more critical thinking than "MANZIEL is a FUCKING DRUNK and is a FAGGOT" or "fuck haslam fuck the front office fuck farmer we need to shitcan everyone and start over".
The problem with this is that you're assuming this is their all-time low when it's actually not.
If Gordon get in trouble again, that's his all time low. We won't be able to get anything for him because he'll no longer be in the league. If Manziel comes back and proves to be equally as bad as he looked last year, that will be his all time low.
You'd like to see Manziel come back and prove something to up his value. That's logical. There's three things that can happen in that scenario:
-Manziel comes back and plays great
-Manziel comes back and plays mediocre
-Manziel comes back and plays like garbage.
If Manziel proves something, we'd likely just keep him. His value to us as a player would be greater than as a tradeable asset.
If Manziel comes back and plays mediocre football, it would be impossible for us to command anything of huge value for him. An undersized serviceable quarterback who recently went to rehab? We'd, at best, get a third rounder..and that's stretching it.
If Manziel comes back and continues to play like garbage, he's completely useless to us. There's a zero percent chance he has any value in this situation.
It's my personal belief that Manziel's value now, at this current point in time, is greater than it would be in two of the above scenarios. "Immensely talented quarterback coming back from personal issues in a new setting" is an infinitely more intriguing sell than "undersized serviceable player with proven backup potential". Attempting to trade him now when there's at least some semblance of mystique around his potential gives us our best value proposition.
These guys are "untradeable" to 90% of the league, but there are teams who might still take a chance on them. From an outsider's perspective, the best chance we'd have at unloading Manziel would be to Dallas or Philly. Dallas because I don't give Jerry any credit and Philly for the aforementioned reasons.
As for Gordon, I think it's more of a no-brainer to trade him now rather than risk him doing something stupid during his suspension. Regardless of where he goes, he's not costing a team anything this season and he has a whole year to sit on his ass...meaning it's likely he could get into trouble yet again.
Personally, I'm just growing tired of the shit-talking pessimists who contribute nothing to this board other than bitching and complaining. This is my attempt to get actual intelligent people like yourself to have conversation, since this requires a little more critical thinking than "MANZIEL is a FUCKING DRUNK and is a FAGGOT" or "fuck haslam fuck the front office fuck farmer we need to shitcan everyone and start over".
Ya, it's a good idea for a thread, but you gave us the option of "tear mine apart" and that's where I'm only because these guys you want to trade hold no real value now.
Sure, they could devalue more, Gordon could get kicked of the league and Johnny could be as bad as he looked last year ... but they aren't worth much right now to begin with. Why would Philly trade #52 for these two knuckleheads?
Their stock has already plummetted. If you bought Stock at $20 and now it is worth $1, is it the time to sell? No, you've already taken the loss, tuck it away and hope it grows into something.
I mean, of the 50-some guys on the roster, you want to trade the guy in rehab and the guy facing a one-year suspension. I would think Farmer just moved their names to the side of his big board ... he can't get any real value for these guys right now.
We've got loads of draft picks and money to burn on free agency ... go out and replace these guys. Get a QB, get a WR, and then if they come back maybe they will show something, and maybe we can get something for them after all.
Zombo
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I won't be surprise if the visitation went like this...
Pettine "Hey Johnny, how's it going? I hope you are coming along alright this past few weeks. We need you this season."
Johnny "Coach, i'm going to right myself and you be damn sure i'm ready when the season starts. I'm the future of the Cleveland Browns."
Pettine "Yes. Future backup QB. Look Johnny, we're going to trade up for Mariotta and hand him the keys. We need you to be the backup."
Johnny "Someone get me the fock out of here and drive me to the nearest bar."
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I won't be surprise if the visitation went like this...
Pettine "Hey Johnny, how's it going? I hope you are coming along alright this past few weeks. We need you this season."
Johnny "Coach, i'm going to right myself and you be damn sure i'm ready when the season starts. I'm the future of the Cleveland Browns."
Pettine "Yes. Future backup QB. Look Johnny, we're going to trade up for Mariotta and hand him the keys. We need you to be the backup."
Johnny "Someone get me the fock out of here and drive me to the nearest bar."
I won't be surprise if the visitation went like this...
Pettine "Hey Johnny, how's it going? I hope you are coming along alright this past few weeks. We need you this season."
Johnny "Coach, i'm going to right myself and you be damn sure i'm ready when the season starts. I'm the future of the Cleveland Browns."
Pettine "Yes. Future backup QB. Look Johnny, we're going to trade up for Mariotta and hand him the keys. We need you to be the backup."
Johnny "Someone get me the fock out of here and drive me to the nearest bar."
You clear johnnies spunk from your girlfriends eyes and throat yet?
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I won't be surprise if the visitation went like this...
Pettine "Hey Johnny, how's it going? I hope you are coming along alright this past few weeks. We need you this season."
Johnny "Coach, i'm going to right myself and you be damn sure i'm ready when the season starts. I'm the future of the Cleveland Browns."
Pettine "Yes. Future backup QB. Look Johnny, we're going to trade up for Mariotta and hand him the keys. We need you to be the backup."
Johnny "Someone get me the fock out of here and drive me to the nearest bar."
You clear johnnies spunk from your girlfriends eyes and throat yet?
You clear johnnies spunk from your girlfriends eyes and throat yet?
Never.
This punk set us back 3 years.
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It's Haslam and Farmer who set us back, in believing Manziel was such a good idea.
I like the owner's heart to win; I hope he is learning on the job. Farmer has a ways to go to prove worthy as GM, and my decision's set - he is not there. The texting was telling; he's in over his head. There is a place on staff for a guy that scouts SOME positions well.... and it's not GM. The Browns cannot afford the 6-10 year learning curve Farmer requires to be an adept GM.
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It's Haslam and Farmer who set us back, in believing Manziel was such a good idea.
I like the owner's heart to win; I hope he is learning on the job. Farmer has a ways to go to prove worthy as GM, and my decision's set - he is not there. The texting was telling; he's in over his head. There is a place on staff for a guy that scouts SOME positions well.... and it's not GM. The Browns cannot afford the 6-10 year learning curve Farmer requires to be an adept GM.
It's Haslam and Farmer who set us back, in believing Manziel was such a good idea.
I like the owner's heart to win; I hope he is learning on the job. Farmer has a ways to go to prove worthy as GM, and my decision's set - he is not there. The texting was telling; he's in over his head. There is a place on staff for a guy that scouts SOME positions well.... and it's not GM. The Browns cannot afford the 6-10 year learning curve Farmer requires to be an adept GM.
really? another nay-sayer?
all we can all do is wait and see. don't dig the grave until the body is dead.
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Safer bet just to give up later pick for Foles, then Mariotta.
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It's Haslam and Farmer who set us back, in believing Manziel was such a good idea.
I like the owner's heart to win; I hope he is learning on the job. Farmer has a ways to go to prove worthy as GM, and my decision's set - he is not there. The texting was telling; he's in over his head. There is a place on staff for a guy that scouts SOME positions well.... and it's not GM. The Browns cannot afford the 6-10 year learning curve Farmer requires to be an adept GM.
It's Haslam and Farmer who set us back, in believing Manziel was such a good idea.
I like the owner's heart to win; I hope he is learning on the job. Farmer has a ways to go to prove worthy as GM, and my decision's set - he is not there. The texting was telling; he's in over his head. There is a place on staff for a guy that scouts SOME positions well.... and it's not GM. The Browns cannot afford the 6-10 year learning curve Farmer requires to be an adept GM.
The definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing over and over again when it proves never to work. I was listening to the Buffalo GM yesterday on NFL radio discuss how they are turning that franchise around even with an underperforming 1st rd. QB. He said their plan this past year was to build the D from the inside out and that their plan for this year was to build their O from the inside out and just hope for the best at QB. The following year if it appears the QB then needs to be addressed, they will then go for it. But he made it clear they want to give their current QB's a chance to improve with vastly superior players both sides of the ball first.
For the Browns to be chasing yet another GM and yet another QB is the definition of Browns insanity. What has it done since 1999? Not a fucking thing. Stick to the long term plan-build that D and continue with that OL. Chase the QB some other year when everything is in place for success if current ones just don't cut it with a rebuilt team.
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Time to reiterate my 3-way?
Browns to TB (or TN): #12 and #19
Philly to Browns: Cox (DT) and Foles
Philly to TB (or TN): #12, #19 and #20
TB (or TN) to Philly: #1 (or #2)
"More likely" to occur with TN at the #2 slot assuming TB takes Jameis #1 overall, then:
- TN rides with Mettenberger and has three top 20 picks to fill needs in a draft deep in OL, DL and WR.
- Chip gets his guy.
- We get an elite, proven at the Pro level, DT and a QB awaiting confirmation of his franchise promise.
Time to reiterate my 3-way?
Browns to TB (or TN): #12 and #19
Philly to Browns: Cox (DT) and Foles
Philly to TB (or TN): #12, #19 and #20
TB (or TN) to Philly: #1 (or #2)
"More likely" to occur with TN at the #2 slot assuming TB takes Jameis #1 overall, then:
- TN rides with Mettenberger and has three top 20 picks to fill needs in a draft deep in OL, DL and WR.
- Chip gets his guy.
- We get an elite, proven at the Pro level, DT and a QB awaiting confirmation of his franchise promise.
To quote Arte Johnson from the old Laugh In show, "Interesting. Verrry interesting".
Mike
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Time to reiterate my 3-way?
Browns to TB (or TN): #12 and #19
Philly to Browns: Cox (DT) and Foles
Philly to TB (or TN): #12, #19 and #20
TB (or TN) to Philly: #1 (or #2)
"More likely" to occur with TN at the #2 slot assuming TB takes Jameis #1 overall, then:
- TN rides with Mettenberger and has three top 20 picks to fill needs in a draft deep in OL, DL and WR.
- Chip gets his guy.
- We get an elite, proven at the Pro level, DT and a QB awaiting confirmation of his franchise promise.
This is very intriguing.
Cleveland would receive their possible franchise quarterback as well as a talented player for the DT/DE position, just like if they had taken these two positions with these two picks.
Philadelphia gets their quarterback to replace Foles and loses only one draft pick, allowing them to replace their DT/DE vacancy in the second round.
Tennessee receives a boatload of first round picks which they could turn into three very solid players. (Although I'd personally turn one of those first round picks into an extra second round pick this year, an extra second round next year, and maybe a depth player?)
I could see Tennessee agreeing to three first round picks this year. I could see Cleveland agreeing to Foles and Cox. I don't think I could see Philly agreeing to losing Cox, Foles and a first round pick solely for Mariota. At the very least, I could see a few later round picks also thrown into this mix just for balancing.
I could see Tennessee agreeing to three first round picks this year. I could see Cleveland agreeing to Foles and Cox. I don't think I could see Philly agreeing to losing Cox, Foles and a first round pick solely for Mariota. At the very least, I could see a few later round picks also thrown into this mix just for balancing.
Obviously it's predicated on Chip not just loving MM, but being obsessed with "the perfect guy to run his offense". Then since Chip does not have the pick ammo to move up, he has to use whatever he has of value and Cox heads that list. I think its plausible for that reason. But as you say a little sweetener here or there might be needed for balance.
The problem I see is that TN has to not be interested in a straight swap of their #2 overall to Philly for Cox, Foles and Philly's #20. If they did this though and then offered Foles to us, then that'd be OK, too.
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Article on George Whitfield's opinion about JM:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/qb_guru_george_whitfield_confi.html
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Article on George Whitfield's opinion about JM:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/qb_guru_george_whitfield_confi.html
Article on George Whitfield's opinion about JM:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/qb_guru_george_whitfield_confi.html
I'm pulling for him. I would love to see JM make it work. I don't think anyone really knows right now but at least I think we are going to see JM at 100 percent this time.
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Article on George Whitfield's opinion about JM:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/qb_guru_george_whitfield_confi.html
Article on George Whitfield's opinion about JM:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/qb_guru_george_whitfield_confi.html
Good read, but I was not sure how to take this bit on us hiring O'Connell...
"It just made sense,'' said Whitfield of the former dual threat quarterback and third-round pick of the Patriots working with Manziel. "A lot of people have x's and o's information, and a lot of people know the game and understand it all, but there are very few who can take material this thick, cut it down so it transfers in smoothly to a young student, especially a young guy like Johnny.
Sounds too much like bringing the work load down to the level of effort JM is willing to give.
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Article on George Whitfield's opinion about JM:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/qb_guru_george_whitfield_confi.html
I'm pulling for him. I would love to see JM make it work. I don't think anyone really knows right now but at least I think we are going to see JM at 100 percent this time.
I would love to see JM make it work. I don't think anyone really knows right now but at least I think we are going to see JM at 100 percent this time.
I would too. At this point he is off my radar, so ANYTHING positive from him would be good......I did compare him to some of the other recent QB busts and think(hope) he has the nads to do better.......
J. Russell?.....Didn't give a shit.....I think JM wants it WAY more than he ever did....
Leaf?..............Simply couldn't handle the pressure and spotlight.....but JM thrives in the spotlight....
Tebow?..........Coudnt throw............Johnny can...
So compared to these failures, I still think Johnny can come around and has some of the stuff these others didnt have.....
But, the one guy that I worry he'll end up like is Todd Marinovich.....lets hope he's not....
Sounds too much like bringing the work load down to the level of effort JM is willing to give.
Thats one possibility.....kinda sounds that way......or....
Another perspective is Loggains wasn't a good teacher.....had the info, but couldnt convey it....
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Article on George Whitfield's opinion about JM:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/02/qb_guru_george_whitfield_confi.html
Good read, but I was not sure how to take this bit on us hiring O'Connell...
"It just made sense,'' said Whitfield of the former dual threat quarterback and third-round pick of the Patriots working with Manziel. "A lot of people have x's and o's information, and a lot of people know the game and understand it all, but there are very few who can take material this thick, cut it down so it transfers in smoothly to a young student, especially a young guy like Johnny.
Sounds too much like bringing the work load down to the level of effort JM is willing to give.
Good read, but I was not sure how to take this bit on us hiring O'Connell...
"It just made sense,'' said Whitfield of the former dual threat quarterback and third-round pick of the Patriots working with Manziel. "A lot of people have x's and o's information, and a lot of people know the game and understand it all, but there are very few who can take material this thick, cut it down so it transfers in smoothly to a young student, especially a young guy like Johnny.
Sounds too much like bringing the work load down to the level of effort JM is willing to give.
I took that to mean he could teach it in an understandable, absorbable way so that a QB is not overwhelmed by "thinking", but can get out there and use his abilities within what he has learned thus far. Then continue to add pieces as the QB grows into the role. That makes sense for any rookie or near rookie QB trying to play in the NFL.
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Good read, but I was not sure how to take this bit on us hiring O'Connell...
"It just made sense,'' said Whitfield of the former dual threat quarterback and third-round pick of the Patriots working with Manziel. "A lot of people have x's and o's information, and a lot of people know the game and understand it all, but there are very few who can take material this thick, cut it down so it transfers in smoothly to a young student, especially a young guy like Johnny.
Sounds too much like bringing the work load down to the level of effort JM is willing to give.
I took that to mean he could teach it in an understandable, absorbable way so that a QB is not overwhelmed by "thinking", but can get out there and use his abilities within what he has learned thus far. Then continue to add pieces as the QB grows into the role. That makes sense for any rookie or near rookie QB trying to play in the NFL.
I took that to mean he could teach it in an understandable, absorbable way so that a QB is not overwhelmed by "thinking", but can get out there and use his abilities within what he has learned thus far. Then continue to add pieces as the QB grows into the role. That makes sense for any rookie or near rookie QB trying to play in the NFL.
That's how i took it as well. Reminds me of when I was an avid golfer back in the late '80s. I took lessons from 3 different PGA Pros trying to get consistent off the tee. The 3rd one, Jay Spitale from Canton, had me consistently drawing the ball in 2 lessons (dropped me to a 6 handicap). All 3 were trying to get me to do the same thing, but only Jay was able to communicate it in terms that not only made sense to me, but that I was able to absorb & execute.
Mike
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The probability is low, but anything is possible.
Before this past college season, how many of you on this forum would have bet that OSU would be called for a total of 2 holding penalties all year?
Yet, that's exactly what happened.
People can change ; people can mature unexpectedly quickly.
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