Pull the trigger on Kevin White!
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I like Flugel's point on the effectiveness of height in the red zone, illustrated by the 2007 Browns with Edwards, Jurevicius, and WinslowJR targeted by tall Derek Anderson. Very very good point.
tiamat... your take as if that Red Zone effectiveness were really due to Joe Thomas and Steinbeck directly attempted to refute the point. We'd have been better served had you added that info along side Flugel's excellent point. Of course both sets (the tall receivers & great O-line) did wonders for the great RZ efficiency in 2007.
tiamat, I loved the way you broke it down with patience to the guy that started this thread. You're raising our thought and our 'game' as a fan-base. Thank you.
I'll post later today in some thread on Browns Board my map for the next 2 offseasons for building this team to the perennial playoff winner we're living to see. (it's something we're living for.... a reason.)
I like Flugel's point on the effectiveness of height in the red zone, illustrated by the 2007 Browns with Edwards, Jurevicius, and WinslowJR targeted by tall Derek Anderson. Very very good point.
tiamat... your take as if that Red Zone effectiveness were really due to Joe Thomas and Steinbeck directly attempted to refute the point. We'd have been better served had you added that info along side Flugel's excellent point. Of course both sets (the tall receivers & great O-line) did wonders for the great RZ efficiency in 2007.
RedZone effectiveness is directly related to having JT and Steinbach. Without the stellar Oline transition, the 2007 squad would have had very few opportunities to have made it to the redzone.
Also, I'm going to go back and look at the number of times we had passing TD's in the redzone that year. Off the top of my head, I remember 2 to Braylon, two to JJ and the other to Kellen.
tiamat, I loved the way you broke it down with patience to the guy that started this thread. You're raising our thought and our 'game' as a fan-base. Thank you.
That is high praise I don't really feel worthy of, but I do appreciate the compliment.
I'll post later today in some thread on Browns Board my map for the next 2 offseasons for building this team to the perennial playoff winner we're living to see. (it's something we're living for.... a reason.)
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We had Thomas and Steinbach in 2008, 2009, and 2010 too; but our WR Corps never duplicated 20 TD receptions while our QB never threw 29 TD passes again like that 2007 season. That's why we went back to our usual 5 wins a year and played musical coaches. No balance coming from our passing game allowing defenses to load the box with 8-9 defenders. We still ran the ball well because we finished 8th out 32 teams at rushing the ball in 2009 while Hillis had his Madden cover boy season in 2010.
Running the ball wasn't a problem at all when Mack was in the lineup in 2014 while Bitonio is the closest thing we've seen to Steinbach at LG. Mack has actually made more Pro Bowls than Hank Fraley; so we're very similar upfront. We had one of the best yards per carry averages throughout the games Mack started in 2014. Where are we with the passing game though? Like I said, 12 TD passes from the QB and 8 TD receptions from the WR Corps in 2014. You can pretend that's fine all you want; but that doesn't gibe us a balanced attack. That's why I suggested Perriman in round 2.
Farmer isn't going to announce what he plans on drafting and he's told people this. That's why a ton of people were shocked we drafted a corner first in 2014. 8 TDs from your WR Corps isn't exactly QB friendly in a passing era. You're too busy trying to win an argument to understand my message about 2007. It was the 1 time our perimeter made a Pro Bowl alternate out of a career backup QB.
So they loaded the box, but we ran well anyway sometime in the late 2000's?
In more recent history, Hoyer threw 12 TDs in 14-1/2 games, but 7 in 6 games prior to Mack's injury when we ran effectively. Pass friendly league or not, we were designed to run first... and often... and pass off of that success. Once Mack went down and the running attack fizzled, it was no surprise that the pass attack followed.
IMO, it adds up to an argument for O-line depth, not an enhanced WR corps.
So they loaded the box, but we ran well anyway sometime in the late 2000's?
In more recent history, Hoyer threw 12 TDs in 14-1/2 games, but 7 in 6 games prior to Mack's injury when we ran effectively. Pass friendly league or not, we were designed to run first... and often... and pass off of that success. Once Mack went down and the running attack fizzled, it was no surprise that the pass attack followed.
IMO, it adds up to an argument for O-line depth, not an enhanced WR corps.
Appreciate your feedback. Unfortunately, the bottom line said Cleveland only won 5 games in 2009 and 5 games in 2010. That means we didn't overcome 8-9 men in the box enough to compensate for a passing game ranking with anchors.
If you read the flow of discussion, I've already said I LOVED the addition of Bitonio and the loss of Mack impacted yards per carry averages as well as Hoyer's ability to step into throws. I'm actually excited about our line and running game when we get everyone back healthy. I'm also pumped we added OT Michael Bowie to compete for a starting job. I like what we're doing with our oline and running game, Why should any of this mean Perriman was a bad idea for round 2? That's where I joined this discussion.
The reality is we need to sign a veteran QB. Do you really think a WR Corps that only combined for 8 TD receptions in 2014 attracts anyone decent/durable? There's no size on our perimeter to give us any red zone advantages/mismatches to exploit. Adding one stud to fit that need won't kill us or our draft volume.
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I wasn't following the discussion... and I'm afraid I'm still not as I have no clue what the late 2000's have to do with anything.
I think playing behind a solid O-line and having a running will attract the kind of veteran QB we need, a game manager with strong play-action skills.
I have no opinion on Perriman, and TBH I thought the discussion was about the ILB when I first saw the name, but he doesn't strike me as being a "name WR" that's going to draw a QB to the Browns.
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We had Thomas and Steinbach in 2008, 2009, and 2010 too; but our WR Corps never duplicated 20 TD receptions while our QB never threw 29 TD passes again like that 2007 season.
Farmer isn't going to announce what he plans on drafting and he's told people this. That's why a ton of people were shocked we drafted a corner first in 2014. 8 TDs from your WR Corps isn't exactly QB friendly in a passing era. You're too busy trying to win an argument to understand my message about 2007. It was the 1 time our perimeter made a Pro Bowl alternate out of a career backup QB.
If anything, I would say this illustrates the point of the offense being a complimentary ecosystem of sorts. Because that average, backup QB and those very same skill position players couldn't come close to duplicating their 2007 season the following year.
Sometimes a blind squirrel finds a nut.
If anything, I would say this illustrates the point of the offense being a complimentary ecosystem of sorts. Because that average, backup QB and those very same skill position players couldn't come close to duplicating their 2007 season the following year.
I thought you already clarified the reason we could throw well in 2007 had less to do with the WR Corps than Steinbach and Thomas. If that's the case, all we needed to do was run left the next 3 years; and our passing game easily continues its pace of 29 TD passes a year regardless of who's playing QB and replacing Joe Jurevicius. Unfortunately, here's our records after 2007 reflecting otherwise:
2008: 4-12 (Steinbach & Thomas played)
2009: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)
2010: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)
2011: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played)
2012: 5-11 (Thomas & Mack played)
2013: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played) - could only run off tackle and 3 different QBs couldn't finish starts.
Sometimes it doesn't matter how good 2 of our offensive lineman are when we drafted guys like Greg Little with the crack-pipe logic we could teach an Edward Scissorhands how to catch a football at the PRO level. We might have been a little more patient with that if we didn't already experienced a WR Corps of Brian Robiskie, MoMass, and Chansi Stuckey. On top of that, we saw a ton of passes batted down at the line of scrimmage in 2011 and 2012. These are all reasons why we've remained stuck on pause seeing 8-9 defenders in the box outnumbering our 5-6 blockers up front for a long time. There's nobody on the perimeter here to make anyone pay for cheating their Safeties up. That's why we had to use Cameron when we busted Pollyneedsahaircut cheating up.
Left Tackles in the NFL are paid top $ to protect the passer. I can't imagine Joe Thomas would be all pumped up to hear we're blowing off the WR position again just so we can put the same bunch of flyweights/slot receiver types back out there again. If we take away Austin's 2 TD receptions, our lightweights only combined for 6 TD receptions over 16 games. There's a reason why a lot of teams only want to play 1 slot receiver at a time. What kind of veteran FA QB is our WR Corps supposed to attract? One that's either always been injured or Mark Sanchez.
In the first 2 rounds, we're going to have TE Maxx Williams on our doorstep as well as a play maker at WR that can prevent a lot of defenses from loading the box on our running game. We can also snag a defensive lineman like Arik Armstead to play DE. My guess is the additions like Joel Bitonio and Michael Bowie prevent the urgency to go oline early. Rounds 3-7 still give us plenty of opportunity to go defense and oline later. With our volume of draft picks plus about 50 million $ of cap space plus an ideal leader like Pettine - there's plenty of reasons to get excited about our future.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Hey Cal! Glad to see you in the mix here. When Mack was healthy I loved what I saw from our line, Crow's average was up over 5 yards a carry while Tate was at something like 4.4 (as temporary as that was). Bitonio was a great addition. Not only that; but Hoyer looked like he was stepping into his throws all the way up until the Jax Game. During that span, I saw the same Brina Hoyer that pleasantly surprised me in 2013.
To answer your question - I saw 1 mock draft that had us taking Miami's OT Ereck Flowers in round 1. That didn't look too bad to me. Other OTs I like are: La el Collins LSU, TJ Clemmings Pitt, Cedric Ogbuehi Texas A&M. Some people think Bowie could challenge Schwartz for the starting RT spot. If so, maybe we can snag a Guard later in the draft.
I've been kind of torn between oline and dline with one of our first round picks. Our 5 technique technique lacked depth and it was very weak at times. Oregon's DE Arik Armstead would really improve that quite a bit IMO. This would allow us to kick our best 2 gap defender - John Hughes inside to NT..
I'm hoping we land TE Maxx Williams with our other first round pick.
Flugel, you are going to get on Ghoolie's shit list, talking about taking O linemen in the first round.
How you gonna handle that?
Flugel, you are going to get on Ghoolie's shit list, talking about taking O linemen in the first round.
How you gonna handle that?
LOL! I don't know Gipper.
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I like Flugel's point on the effectiveness of height in the red zone, illustrated by the 2007 Browns with Edwards, Jurevicius, and WinslowJR targeted by tall Derek Anderson. Very very good point.
tiamat... your take as if that Red Zone effectiveness were really due to Joe Thomas and Steinbeck directly attempted to refute the point. We'd have been better served had you added that info along side Flugel's excellent point. Of course both sets (the tall receivers & great O-line) did wonders for the great RZ efficiency in 2007.
tiamat, I loved the way you broke it down with patience to the guy that started this thread. You're raising our thought and our 'game' as a fan-base. Thank you.
I'll post later today in some thread on Browns Board my map for the next 2 offseasons for building this team to the perennial playoff winner we're living to see. (it's something we're living for.... a reason.)
I like Flugel's point on the effectiveness of height in the red zone, illustrated by the 2007 Browns with Edwards, Jurevicius, and WinslowJR targeted by tall Derek Anderson. Very very good point.
tiamat... your take as if that Red Zone effectiveness were really due to Joe Thomas and Steinbeck directly attempted to refute the point. We'd have been better served had you added that info along side Flugel's excellent point. Of course both sets (the tall receivers & great O-line) did wonders for the great RZ efficiency in 2007.
Thanks Naberius!
While Steinbach and Thomas were our blue collar heroes (as well as Hank Fraley who made all the line calls and pulled from his Center position) - QB Derek Anderson threw 29 TD passes with 20 of those going to the WR position. That's what size in the red zone can do for a QB that isn't consistently accurate. In addition to the TD volume, Edwards and Winslow had 56 first downs apiece while Joe Jurevicius added another 34. In comparison, our WR Corps only caught 8 TD passes in 2014.
Jurevicius didn't play in 2008, Derek Anderson turned into the football version of Ricky Ankiel on the mound even though we still had Steinbach and Thomas fighting like hell to help us win 4 games. In 2009 & 2010, we still had Steinbach and Thomas fighting to help deliver 5 wins in each of those seasons. In essence, it took us 3 years to win 14 games after winning 10 games in 2007.
Remember what Minnesota did with height in the red zone when they had Jake Reed, Cris Carter and Randy Moss? Randall Cunningham had the best passer ratings of his career on a team that went 15-1.
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Browns cannot solve anything without significant improvements to the DL and OL.
WR are a shiny hood ornament.
The more labels you have for yourself, the dumber they make you. "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." Paul Brown -
If anything, I would say this illustrates the point of the offense being a complimentary ecosystem of sorts. Because that average, backup QB and those very same skill position players couldn't come close to duplicating their 2007 season the following year.
I thought you already clarified the reason we could throw well in 2007 had less to do with the WR Corps than Steinbach and Thomas. If that's the case, all we needed to do was run left the next 3 years; and our passing game easily continues its pace of 29 TD passes a year regardless of who's playing QB and replacing Joe Jurevicius. Unfortunately, here's our records after 2007 reflecting otherwise:
2008: 4-12 (Steinbach & Thomas played)
2009: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)
2010: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)
2011: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played)
2012: 5-11 (Thomas & Mack played)
2013: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played) - could only run off tackle and 3 different QBs couldn't finish starts.
Sometimes it doesn't matter how good 2 of our offensive lineman are when we drafted guys like Greg Little with the crack-pipe logic we could teach an Edward Scissorhands how to catch a football at the PRO level. We might have been a little more patient with that if we didn't already experienced a WR Corps of Brian Robiskie, MoMass, and Chansi Stuckey. On top of that, we saw a ton of passes batted down at the line of scrimmage in 2011 and 2012. These are all reasons why we've remained stuck on pause seeing 8-9 defenders in the box outnumbering our 5-6 blockers up front for a long time. There's nobody on the perimeter here to make anyone pay for cheating their Safeties up. That's why we had to use Cameron when we busted Pollyneedsahaircut cheating up.
Left Tackles in the NFL are paid top $ to protect the passer. I can't imagine Joe Thomas would be all pumped up to hear we're blowing off the WR position again just so we can put the same bunch of flyweights/slot receiver types back out there again. If we take away Austin's 2 TD receptions, our lightweights only combined for 6 TD receptions over 16 games. There's a reason why a lot of teams only want to play 1 slot receiver at a time. What kind of veteran FA QB is our WR Corps supposed to attract? One that's either always been injured or Mark Sanchez.
In the first 2 rounds, we're going to have TE Maxx Williams on our doorstep as well as a play maker at WR that can prevent a lot of defenses from loading the box on our running game. We can also snag a defensive lineman like Arik Armstead to play DE. My guess is the additions like Joel Bitonio and Michael Bowie prevent the urgency to go oline early. Rounds 3-7 still give us plenty of opportunity to go defense and oline later. With our volume of draft picks plus about 50 million $ of cap space plus an ideal leader like Pettine - there's plenty of reasons to get excited about our future.
I thought you already clarified the reason we could throw well in 2007 had less to do with the WR Corps than Steinbach and Thomas.
I believe I clarified my full thoughts on that with the 'complimentary ecosystem that is offense' comment. With that said, the Oline is the greatest reason our passing game improved in 07. Plus having a remotely capable QB under center didn't hurt. But without the improvements up front, the running game doesn't become the compliment to the pass first team we had and pass protection also suffers as a result.
If that's the case, all we needed to do was run left the next 3 years; and our passing game easily continues its pace of 29 TD passes a year regardless of who's playing QB and replacing Joe Jurevicius.
That literally makes zero sense. All we needed to do was run left? What does that have to do with anything? As much as I love JT, he isn't the dominant run blocking LT, never has been. You put Anthony Munoz over there and maybe we've got a slightly different story. Plus the incredibly sharp decline of Jamal Lewis and defenses catching onto the one-read wonderkin that was Derek Anderson had the largest effects on the teams regression. That's ignoring the loss of JJ, having a TE playing bone and bone and Braylon coming back to earth much like he was at *ichigan. Oh, coupled with again... a defense void of playmakers.
You sound as if all we had to do was run the ball a couple times to our strongest lineman and defenses would part like the red sea. Football is a bit more complex, I fear.
2008: 4-12 (Steinbach & Thomas played)
2009: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)
2010: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)
2011: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played)
2012: 5-11 (Thomas & Mack played)
2013: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played) - could only run off tackle and 3 different QBs couldn't finish starts.
I'd like to point out, you counter my argument by saying it was Braylon, JJ and Souldja boy that were the driving force behind the 2007 seasons success. We still had the same group of playmakers at WR in 2008 (save for JJ) and yielded bad results. You've yet to address this fact. Which leads more credibility to the offensive success starting up front then moving in to out.
Sometimes it doesn't matter how good 2 of our offensive lineman are when we drafted guys like Greg Little with the crack-pipe logic we could teach an Edward Scissorhands how to catch a football at the PRO level.
I wont disagree, WR play dropped like a stone. Which is sad considering Braylon and Kellen were but ghosts on their last ride in Cleveland.
On top of that, we saw a ton of passes batted down at the line of scrimmage in 2011 and 2012.
That would be on the QB, our Oline and the opposing Dline getting their hands up. Has very little to do with our receivers.
These are all reasons why we've remained stuck on pause seeing 8-9 defenders in the box outnumbering our 5-6 blockers up front for a long time. There's nobody on the perimeter here to make anyone pay for cheating their Safeties up. That's why we had to use Cameron when we busted Pollyneedsahaircut cheating up.
We've remained stuck on pause because the offense from top to bottom was a functioning mess. The oline for the the longest time may have had JT and Mack, but we're the same team that started O'Neil Cousins as RT. Lets not discount the fact there are 3 other important positions on the Oline to be manned. Our QB situation has been below average at best for quite a while. Another component as to why you see an unfavorable box count. You could have Randy Moss, Cris Carter and Jerry Rice out there... if you have Blaine Gabbert throwing them the ball, it doesn't matter.
Left Tackles in the NFL are paid top $ to protect the passer. I can't imagine Joe Thomas would be all pumped up to hear we're blowing off the WR position again just so we can put the same bunch of flyweights/slot receiver types back out there again. If we take away Austin's 2 TD receptions, our lightweights only combined for 6 TD receptions over 16 games. There's a reason why a lot of teams only want to play 1 slot receiver at a time. What kind of veteran FA QB is our WR Corps supposed to attract? One that's either always been injured or Mark Sanchez.
I think JT gives less than a shit who we're throwing to so long as that man makes his plays and the offense hums. I bet Joe was a pretty happy guy seeing the Oline maul people, the run game be a top 5 unit until Mack went down. This is a run first team. You could draft White, Cooper and Maxx... still going to be a run first team with our QB situation. You tossing out how many TD's our WR's caught means little when that was in fact the idea the whole time. Run the ball, dominate TOP, turnover margin and have a high YPA count on passing plays. Force teams to account for our badass ground and pound giving our receivers a chance to win 1 on 1 matchups in a league that favors protecting receivers. Also, lets not pretend that this FA crop of QB's would make this offense sterling with a couple of decent receivers. That's a pipe dream.
In the first 2 rounds, we're going to have TE Maxx Williams on our doorstep as well as a play maker at WR that can prevent a lot of defenses from loading the box on our running game. We can also snag a defensive lineman like Arik Armstead to play DE. My guess is the additions like Joel Bitonio and Michael Bowie prevent the urgency to go oline early. Rounds 3-7 still give us plenty of opportunity to go defense and oline later. With our volume of draft picks plus about 50 million $ of cap space plus an ideal leader like Pettine - there's plenty of reasons to get excited about our future.
Let me also clarify my draft stance. Unless there is zero other option, including trade downs, I don't want ANY oline in the first round. Mid round to late round, yes. I've already highlighted a few people with potential like Ali Marpet, Max Garcia, Aundrey Walker and BJ Finney. Tour has done far more scouting on the Oline and I'm certain could provide more names that would help this team with quality depth.
I've watched Williams play and I like his game. He's a vertical threat TE. He isn't the lateral passing threat that Cameron was, he isn't overly quick in space for a guy his size and really isn't a great inline blocker. Jordan is more athletic, but I still like Maxx. 1st round like? No... I don't think you'll see that type of impact you're looking for. Rookie TE's RARELY have that impact on a team. In fact, I'll go as far as saying history is not on the side of a rookie TE. They have far less impact than WR's whom they themselves, usually don't improve a teams win total.
As for Armstead. I'll pass. Kid is no 1st round 5tech talent, I've watched about half dozen games worth of defensive snaps yesterday to know that one.
edit: Whilst typing I wondered just how big an impact most rookie TE's have. Did a little digging - only THREE rookie TE's have logged 500+ yards receiving in the last 13 years.
Jeremy Shockey
Gronk
Hernandez
Of those 3, 2 play with an all timer at QB in what was at that point, one of the most pass happy offenses in the league.
double edit: Final thoughts. We do need help on the perimeter, you're right. I would like 2 receivers in this draft, personally. However not at the expense of selecting positions
that are of greater need and not dependent on QB play. I would love to see Devin, Coates, Perrimen & Locket in the 2nd to mid rounds. I think they all of them will be solid contributors in time to their respective teams.
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Round 2 is a great place to grab a WR with 1st-round talent because WR is stacked this year.
Not so much for impact OL and DL.. we need to get both of those in the 1st this year.
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If anything, I would say this illustrates the point of the offense being a complimentary ecosystem of sorts. Because that average, backup QB and those very same skill position players couldn't come close to duplicating their 2007 season the following year.
I thought you already clarified the reason we could throw well in 2007 had less to do with the WR Corps than Steinbach and Thomas. If that's the case, all we needed to do was run left the next 3 years; and our passing game easily continues its pace of 29 TD passes a year regardless of who's playing QB and replacing Joe Jurevicius. Unfortunately, here's our records after 2007 reflecting otherwise:
2008: 4-12 (Steinbach & Thomas played)
2009: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)
2010: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)
2011: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played)
2012: 5-11 (Thomas & Mack played)
2013: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played) - could only run off tackle and 3 different QBs couldn't finish starts.
Sometimes it doesn't matter how good 2 of our offensive lineman are when we drafted guys like Greg Little with the crack-pipe logic we could teach an Edward Scissorhands how to catch a football at the PRO level. We might have been a little more patient with that if we didn't already experienced a WR Corps of Brian Robiskie, MoMass, and Chansi Stuckey. On top of that, we saw a ton of passes batted down at the line of scrimmage in 2011 and 2012. These are all reasons why we've remained stuck on pause seeing 8-9 defenders in the box outnumbering our 5-6 blockers up front for a long time. There's nobody on the perimeter here to make anyone pay for cheating their Safeties up. That's why we had to use Cameron when we busted Pollyneedsahaircut cheating up.
Left Tackles in the NFL are paid top $ to protect the passer. I can't imagine Joe Thomas would be all pumped up to hear we're blowing off the WR position again just so we can put the same bunch of flyweights/slot receiver types back out there again. If we take away Austin's 2 TD receptions, our lightweights only combined for 6 TD receptions over 16 games. There's a reason why a lot of teams only want to play 1 slot receiver at a time. What kind of veteran FA QB is our WR Corps supposed to attract? One that's either always been injured or Mark Sanchez.
In the first 2 rounds, we're going to have TE Maxx Williams on our doorstep as well as a play maker at WR that can prevent a lot of defenses from loading the box on our running game. We can also snag a defensive lineman like Arik Armstead to play DE. My guess is the additions like Joel Bitonio and Michael Bowie prevent the urgency to go oline early. Rounds 3-7 still give us plenty of opportunity to go defense and oline later. With our volume of draft picks plus about 50 million $ of cap space plus an ideal leader like Pettine - there's plenty of reasons to get excited about our future.
These are all reasons why we've remained stuck on pause seeing 8-9 defenders in the box outnumbering our 5-6 blockers up front for a long time. There's nobody on the perimeter here to make anyone pay for cheating their Safeties up. That's why we had to use Cameron when we busted Pollyneedsahaircut cheating up.
My guess is the additions like Joel Bitonio and Michael Bowie prevent the urgency to go oline early.
First, SS's are often responsible for TEs...
Second... In defense of Hoyer, I actually did stats on this "8-in-the-box" claim last season. We faced 8 or more in the box less than 20% of the time and were successful (gaining 4 or more yards) against that look over 50% of the time. And the work was done after Mack went down.
Yet somehow despite disagreeing with your arguments, we've reached the same conclusion... O-line need is not high. The only reason to take an OT high is if we see Thomas' long-term replacement in this class... and I am not sure I do.
As for Armstead. I'll pass. Kid is no 1st round 5tech talent, I've watched about half dozen games worth of defensive snaps yesterday to know that one.
Let me also clarify my draft stance. Unless there is zero other option, including trade downs, I don't want ANY oline in the first round. Mid round to late round, yes. I've already highlighted a few people with potential like Ali Marpet, Max Garcia, Aundrey Walker and BJ Finney. Tour has done far more scouting on the Oline and I'm certain could provide more names that would help this team with quality depth.
Agree... not seeing Armstead playing hard-nosed, run D. The college DE I like that fits our scheme at DE is Stanford's Anderson and he'll come much cheaper. But it's more likely that a quick DT is going to slide outside for us, e.g., Xavier Cooper. Bennett is also a possibility.
As for O-line... right now I really like two...
One is Marpet. Not supposed to love a prospect, but the kid blew me away at the combine. He is the best OG I've seen so far in this draft and is made for the ZBS. I fully expect him to go Day 2.
Another Day Two guy, albeit earlier, is Ty Sambrailo. I watched his game tape and saw Bito the 2nd. I think he adds OT depth, but will find a home in the interior.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
I thought you already clarified the reason we could throw well in 2007 had less to do with the WR Corps than Steinbach and Thomas.
I believe I clarified my full thoughts on that with the 'complimentary ecosystem that is offense' comment. With that said, the Oline is the greatest reason our passing game improved in 07. Plus having a remotely capable QB under center didn't hurt. But without the improvements up front, the running game doesn't become the compliment to the pass first team we had and pass protection also suffers as a result.
If that's the case, all we needed to do was run left the next 3 years; and our passing game easily continues its pace of 29 TD passes a year regardless of who's playing QB and replacing Joe Jurevicius.
That literally makes zero sense. All we needed to do was run left? What does that have to do with anything? As much as I love JT, he isn't the dominant run blocking LT, never has been. You put Anthony Munoz over there and maybe we've got a slightly different story. Plus the incredibly sharp decline of Jamal Lewis and defenses catching onto the one-read wonderkin that was Derek Anderson had the largest effects on the teams regression. That's ignoring the loss of JJ, having a TE playing bone and bone and Braylon coming back to earth much like he was at *ichigan. Oh, coupled with again... a defense void of playmakers.
You sound as if all we had to do was run the ball a couple times to our strongest lineman and defenses would part like the red sea. Football is a bit more complex, I fear.
2008: 4-12 (Steinbach & Thomas played)
2009: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)
2010: 5-11 (Steinbach, Mack & Thomas played)
2011: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played)
2012: 5-11 (Thomas & Mack played)
2013: 4-12 (Thomas & Mack played) - could only run off tackle and 3 different QBs couldn't finish starts.
I'd like to point out, you counter my argument by saying it was Braylon, JJ and Souldja boy that were the driving force behind the 2007 seasons success. We still had the same group of playmakers at WR in 2008 (save for JJ) and yielded bad results. You've yet to address this fact. Which leads more credibility to the offensive success starting up front then moving in to out.
Sometimes it doesn't matter how good 2 of our offensive lineman are when we drafted guys like Greg Little with the crack-pipe logic we could teach an Edward Scissorhands how to catch a football at the PRO level.
I wont disagree, WR play dropped like a stone. Which is sad considering Braylon and Kellen were but ghosts on their last ride in Cleveland.
On top of that, we saw a ton of passes batted down at the line of scrimmage in 2011 and 2012.
That would be on the QB, our Oline and the opposing Dline getting their hands up. Has very little to do with our receivers.
These are all reasons why we've remained stuck on pause seeing 8-9 defenders in the box outnumbering our 5-6 blockers up front for a long time. There's nobody on the perimeter here to make anyone pay for cheating their Safeties up. That's why we had to use Cameron when we busted Pollyneedsahaircut cheating up.
We've remained stuck on pause because the offense from top to bottom was a functioning mess. The oline for the the longest time may have had JT and Mack, but we're the same team that started O'Neil Cousins as RT. Lets not discount the fact there are 3 other important positions on the Oline to be manned. Our QB situation has been below average at best for quite a while. Another component as to why you see an unfavorable box count. You could have Randy Moss, Cris Carter and Jerry Rice out there... if you have Blaine Gabbert throwing them the ball, it doesn't matter.
Left Tackles in the NFL are paid top $ to protect the passer. I can't imagine Joe Thomas would be all pumped up to hear we're blowing off the WR position again just so we can put the same bunch of flyweights/slot receiver types back out there again. If we take away Austin's 2 TD receptions, our lightweights only combined for 6 TD receptions over 16 games. There's a reason why a lot of teams only want to play 1 slot receiver at a time. What kind of veteran FA QB is our WR Corps supposed to attract? One that's either always been injured or Mark Sanchez.
I think JT gives less than a shit who we're throwing to so long as that man makes his plays and the offense hums. I bet Joe was a pretty happy guy seeing the Oline maul people, the run game be a top 5 unit until Mack went down. This is a run first team. You could draft White, Cooper and Maxx... still going to be a run first team with our QB situation. You tossing out how many TD's our WR's caught means little when that was in fact the idea the whole time. Run the ball, dominate TOP, turnover margin and have a high YPA count on passing plays. Force teams to account for our badass ground and pound giving our receivers a chance to win 1 on 1 matchups in a league that favors protecting receivers. Also, lets not pretend that this FA crop of QB's would make this offense sterling with a couple of decent receivers. That's a pipe dream.
In the first 2 rounds, we're going to have TE Maxx Williams on our doorstep as well as a play maker at WR that can prevent a lot of defenses from loading the box on our running game. We can also snag a defensive lineman like Arik Armstead to play DE. My guess is the additions like Joel Bitonio and Michael Bowie prevent the urgency to go oline early. Rounds 3-7 still give us plenty of opportunity to go defense and oline later. With our volume of draft picks plus about 50 million $ of cap space plus an ideal leader like Pettine - there's plenty of reasons to get excited about our future.
Let me also clarify my draft stance. Unless there is zero other option, including trade downs, I don't want ANY oline in the first round. Mid round to late round, yes. I've already highlighted a few people with potential like Ali Marpet, Max Garcia, Aundrey Walker and BJ Finney. Tour has done far more scouting on the Oline and I'm certain could provide more names that would help this team with quality depth.
I've watched Williams play and I like his game. He's a vertical threat TE. He isn't the lateral passing threat that Cameron was, he isn't overly quick in space for a guy his size and really isn't a great inline blocker. Jordan is more athletic, but I still like Maxx. 1st round like? No... I don't think you'll see that type of impact you're looking for. Rookie TE's RARELY have that impact on a team. In fact, I'll go as far as saying history is not on the side of a rookie TE. They have far less impact than WR's whom they themselves, usually don't improve a teams win total.
As for Armstead. I'll pass. Kid is no 1st round 5tech talent, I've watched about half dozen games worth of defensive snaps yesterday to know that one.
edit: Whilst typing I wondered just how big an impact most rookie TE's have. Did a little digging - only THREE rookie TE's have logged 500+ yards receiving in the last 13 years.
Jeremy Shockey
Gronk
Hernandez
Of those 3, 2 play with an all timer at QB in what was at that point, one of the most pass happy offenses in the league.
double edit: Final thoughts. We do need help on the perimeter, you're right. I would like 2 receivers in this draft, personally. However not at the expense of selecting positions
that are of greater need and not dependent on QB play. I would love to see Devin, Coates, Perrimen & Locket in the 2nd to mid rounds. I think they all of them will be solid contributors in time to their respective teams.
We do need help on the perimeter, you're right. I would like 2 receivers in this draft, personally. However not at the expense of selecting positions that are of greater need and not dependent on QB play. I would love to see Devin, Coates, Perrimen & Locket in the 2nd to mid rounds. I think they all of them will be solid contributors in time to their respective teams.
Tia, not for nothing but go back to the page I entered this thread. My first post was saying I think we can get Perriman in round 2. Guess who my biggest critic was? You, saying round 2 was a huge reach for the guy you deemed slated for round 4. Therefore, I gave you 2 cut and pastes of 2 different draft experts saying his stock could be up as high as round 1. That could have been a nice place to tell me you agreed with my intrigue for Perriman in round 2 rather than taking us on the huge detour.
And now you're telling me Perriman is one of the 2 WRs you really wanted? Think of how much time we could have saved with a little "Good point Flugel - I really like that kid right after round 1 too!"
As for your criticism of DE Arik Armstead, his reviews are mixed. Some people really like him - others feel like you do. He appears in the first round of some mock drafts and in upper mid rounds of others. I'm open to other dlineman. Shelton is growing on me while I read Phillips takes plays off and had back surgery in 2013. Your guy Coates has mixed reviews too. I'd start to be open to him in round 3 or 4 if we haven't drafted any WRs yet.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
If Kevin White ever gets shot, this will be a poorly named thread.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
The condition of this team won't be 'fixed' in one offseason. It's going to take 2 offseason cycles to get the Browns into perennial playoff contenders like the top 6-8 franchises in football.
Detailed is my plan to facilitate that reality:
Glaring holes at QB and WR1 is all the rage among fans to get answered this offseason. But solid O-line play is of paramount importance to evaluate a QB... so sieves at RG & RT won't do in 2015... they are MUST upgrades THIS offseason. And, truly, the only way to perennial playoffs is to build a stout & intelligently aggressive defense... and the quickest way there starts at the point of attack. Mission: be on the lookout for the coming generation of a Wilfork or Ngata. Next needed: a ROLB that gets on the QB in a hurry. There's a lot of these types to crap-shoot on, but we must be wiser than to believe we're crap-shooting. That's not the name of our game. Coaching, patience, and simplification in rookie season goes a long way for a prospect. Gaining confidence is important indicator #1 in our system.
Our answer at QB is not out there to be had in 2015. Unknown qualities exist in Manziel and Connor Shaw, and we're going to find out in 2015 if they can be of service to our long-term mission. I like the chance that one surprises us just a bit in Flip's offense... perhaps enough to merit a roster spot in 2016, at least. Our plan is to draft the long-term answer at QB in 2016 when just from our corner of the country MSU's Connor Cook, PSU's Christian Hackenberg, and Ohio State's Cardale Jones should be top picks. I like Hackenberg most at this point, but Cardale is intriguing, to be sure.
Truth is, to judge an NFL QB, short and intermediate routes (their bread 'n' butter) are what is necessary to fairly assess. Our undersized WR with sticky hands are actually quite effective running those routes. We can trust what we see from the QB position based on our current WRs, provided we upgrade the right side of the O-line. I'm determined we are not going to reach in our pertinent picks (to find starters; the first 3) for a WR in this draft. If White or Cooper are there at #12, they'll have our full consideration; I'm not so high on Parker. Jaelin Strong or Devin Smith would have our consideration at #43, but I feel the real smart value there is filling RG with Ereck Flowers, Cam Erving, or Tre Jackson. QB wouldn't even begin to come into consideration until Round 3, if Hundley makes it there. Again, I'm not too high on our options there; if Jim Mora Jr didn't get Hundley to raise his game in college, far be it from us to believe it will 'click' for him in the monster that is the N.F.L. This isn't "throw a lot of picks at a problem".... it's an intelligent process we take from a blueprint of success from past-decade achiever franchises. Our QB Answer is entering the 2016 Draft; we must face it.
What we need this offseason: NT, RT, RG, DE, WR
What we need in 2016: QB, OLB, WR, DE
Address 2-3 in 2015 FA: NT, RG, DE, WR, TE
My board for #12: Shelton/NT, White/WR, Beasley/OLB, Cooper/WR, Trade Down, Parker/WR, Goldman/DL
My board for #19: Brown/NT, Thompson/OLB, Clemmings/RT, Williams/TE, Flowers/RT
My board for #43: Erving/RG, Strong/WR, Devin Smith/WR, Jackson/RG, Odighizuwa/DE, Kendricks/LB
Vic Beasley has the quality make-up of a future leader on D... think Von Miller-esque...
and Shaq Thompson is a star you find a spot for. He just makes plays... gets to the QB & ball carrier and is world-class at stripping the ball. Turnover machine. Oh, and put him in the backfield in the red zone to finish any job. He is HoneyBadger 5.0 ... I'll take him at 19 for sure.
Devin Smith is an ode to 2016 and the big arm QB we'll draft to consistently find him deep behind the safety, turned backward to face the QB like he does. Maybe Cardale, maybe PSU's Christian Hackenberg... we can dream right now!
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If Kevin White ever gets shot, this will be a poorly named thread.
If Kevin White ever gets shot, this will be a poorly named thread.
thank god someone has my sense of humor!
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Browns cannot solve anything without significant improvements to the DL and OL.
WR are a shiny hood ornament.
Browns cannot solve anything without significant improvements to the DL and OL.
WR are a shiny hood ornament.
yes. ^this 100x yes.
Round 2 is a great place to grab a WR with 1st-round talent because WR is stacked this year.
Not so much for impact OL and DL.. we need to get both of those in the 1st this year.
yes!! this 1kx yes.
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No trading up! If Kevin White is already taken there are other wide receivers. Devon Smith, Jaelon Strong, Amari Cooper. Davante Parker. At 12 they could also get Danny Shelton.
The Browns must never trade up again. They are not capable of judging talent and should take the best player available to fill their needs at 12, 19, and so on. We've seen what happens when they get cute. I.E.
Last year taking NO receivers. How is it that Oakland got Khalil Mack AND a quarterback. And Minnesota got a quarterback and Clinton-Dix. We got a cry-baby cornerback and Johnny Rehab.
DAMN THE TORPEDOES! FULL SPEED AHEAD! -
i don't know about the browns not being able to judge talent. you'd have to do the dissection of regimes in place at the time those scouting 'fails' failed.
hell, we ain't the only ones in that sinking ship (and last year it wasn't farmer's crew and he still picked gems). bills, tampa bay, miami, arizona, jets, minnesota for years..........it's the hardest card to play.
if you win you're a genious, if you go all in and get squashed you're a flippin DUD.
but to come on here and STILL complain about who we DIDN'T pick with all the shoulda coulda wouldas is just infantile and lame.
i mean i don't come around on thanksgiving and bring up the fact that when your grandma blew me she really SUCKED.
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i don't know about the browns not being able to judge talent. you'd have to do the dissection of regimes in place at the time those scouting 'fails' failed.
hell, we ain't the only ones in that sinking ship (and last year it wasn't farmer's crew and he still picked gems). bills, tampa bay, miami, arizona, jets, minnesota for years..........it's the hardest card to play.
if you win you're a genious, if you go all in and get squashed you're a flippin DUD.
but to come on here and STILL complain about who we DIDN'T pick with all the shoulda coulda wouldas is just infantile and lame.
i mean i don't come around on thanksgiving and bring up the fact that when your grandma blew me she really SUCKED.
i don't know about the browns not being able to judge talent. you'd have to do the dissection of regimes in place at the time those scouting 'fails' failed.
hell, we ain't the only ones in that sinking ship (and last year it wasn't farmer's crew and he still picked gems). bills, tampa bay, miami, arizona, jets, minnesota for years..........it's the hardest card to play.
if you win you're a genious, if you go all in and get squashed you're a flippin DUD.
but to come on here and STILL complain about who we DIDN'T pick with all the shoulda coulda wouldas is just infantile and lame.
i mean i don't come around on thanksgiving and bring up the fact that when your grandma blew me she really SUCKED.
Out of curiosity, when should we question our front office picks? And how should we question them? I mean someone points out whom we might have chosen, but to you that is pointless. How else do you want to judge how our front office is doing? Is it the same if I say how the (insert good team here) has drafted good year in, and year out? I mean that is how we determine if a front office is doing good right? Is it not a fair way to decide if they are doing bad? I mean shouldn't we actually compare who we took, to whom we should have took? Isn't that the whole point of scouting? To know who is going to be good? Isn't that how the "good teams" draft? They don't miss the "good" players like we do? I mean yes, we can look at the players picked, and judge them, but just because they fail here, doesn't mean they would fail elsewhere right? I mean Winston here likely fails, but Winston say in Green Bay could flourish, or in Chicago, or a place where they have a solid run game, and good receivers. The team has as much to do with why players fail, as the players themselves.
Who exactly were the gems we drafted last year? I would give you Bitonio, but who else? You also say Farmer's crew, but you do realize he was our director of pro personel in 2013 right? He was undoubtedly working on the 2014 draft in 2013 don't ya think? So he was pretty up on last years draft right? So his picks were his, and his crews. It's not like we cleaned house when we fired Lombardi, it was just Lombardi and 1 other I believe so most of the staff was intact from 2013. I would say they were ready and prepared to draft, wouldn't you?
My guess is you will just respond poorly, and not want to explain what it is you look for in a front office to determine if they are doing there job, and what "gems" you believe we landed in the draft last year. But I guess we shall see. Remember you say anyone who comes here to talk about woulda, coulda , shoulda is infantile and lame, but so is anyone who has to resort to insults, and name calling. Lets see which side of the coin you land on.
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i don't know about the browns not being able to judge talent. you'd have to do the dissection of regimes in place at the time those scouting 'fails' failed.
hell, we ain't the only ones in that sinking ship (and last year it wasn't farmer's crew and he still picked gems). bills, tampa bay, miami, arizona, jets, minnesota for years..........it's the hardest card to play.
if you win you're a genious, if you go all in and get squashed you're a flippin DUD.
but to come on here and STILL complain about who we DIDN'T pick with all the shoulda coulda wouldas is just infantile and lame.
i mean i don't come around on thanksgiving and bring up the fact that when your grandma blew me she really SUCKED.
Out of curiosity, when should we question our front office picks? And how should we question them? I mean someone points out whom we might have chosen, but to you that is pointless. How else do you want to judge how our front office is doing? Is it the same if I say how the (insert good team here) has drafted good year in, and year out? I mean that is how we determine if a front office is doing good right? Is it not a fair way to decide if they are doing bad? I mean shouldn't we actually compare who we took, to whom we should have took? Isn't that the whole point of scouting? To know who is going to be good? Isn't that how the "good teams" draft? They don't miss the "good" players like we do? I mean yes, we can look at the players picked, and judge them, but just because they fail here, doesn't mean they would fail elsewhere right? I mean Winston here likely fails, but Winston say in Green Bay could flourish, or in Chicago, or a place where they have a solid run game, and good receivers. The team has as much to do with why players fail, as the players themselves.
Who exactly were the gems we drafted last year? I would give you Bitonio, but who else? You also say Farmer's crew, but you do realize he was our director of pro personel in 2013 right? He was undoubtedly working on the 2014 draft in 2013 don't ya think? So he was pretty up on last years draft right? So his picks were his, and his crews. It's not like we cleaned house when we fired Lombardi, it was just Lombardi and 1 other I believe so most of the staff was intact from 2013. I would say they were ready and prepared to draft, wouldn't you?
My guess is you will just respond poorly, and not want to explain what it is you look for in a front office to determine if they are doing there job, and what "gems" you believe we landed in the draft last year. But I guess we shall see. Remember you say anyone who comes here to talk about woulda, coulda , shoulda is infantile and lame, but so is anyone who has to resort to insults, and name calling. Lets see which side of the coin you land on.
cbbacker said:
Out of curiosity, when should we question our front office picks? And how should we question them? I mean someone points out whom we might have chosen, but to you that is pointless. How else do you want to judge how our front office is doing? Is it the same if I say how the (insert good team here) has drafted good year in, and year out? I mean that is how we determine if a front office is doing good right? Is it not a fair way to decide if they are doing bad? I mean shouldn't we actually compare who we took, to whom we should have took? Isn't that the whole point of scouting? To know who is going to be good? Isn't that how the "good teams" draft? They don't miss the "good" players like we do? I mean yes, we can look at the players picked, and judge them, but just because they fail here, doesn't mean they would fail elsewhere right? I mean Winston here likely fails, but Winston say in Green Bay could flourish, or in Chicago, or a place where they have a solid run game, and good receivers. The team has as much to do with why players fail, as the players themselves.
Who exactly were the gems we drafted last year? I would give you Bitonio, but who else? You also say Farmer's crew, but you do realize he was our director of pro personel in 2013 right? He was undoubtedly working on the 2014 draft in 2013 don't ya think? So he was pretty up on last years draft right? So his picks were his, and his crews. It's not like we cleaned house when we fired Lombardi, it was just Lombardi and 1 other I believe so most of the staff was intact from 2013. I would say they were ready and prepared to draft, wouldn't you?
My guess is you will just respond poorly, and not want to explain what it is you look for in a front office to determine if they are doing there job, and what "gems" you believe we landed in the draft last year. But I guess we shall see. Remember you say anyone who comes here to talk about woulda, coulda , shoulda is infantile and lame, but so is anyone who has to resort to insults, and name calling. Lets see which side of the coin you land on.
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I get it. I'm Not trying to say that a fan doesn't have the right to speak out, but when that said fan does it repeatedly and that's all they have to offer.....that is lame.
Believe me, most of us golden oldies on here have seen the hits and misses from past and present regimes longer than you've been taking breath so show some respect. Sure we missed out on this guy or that guy and instead drafted bums at times, but to just non-stop whine and complain (not saying you) is non-productive and at some point quite boring.
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