Browns vs. Steeler LB corps

The Gipper

@vagitron said:
I never said they are the greatest since anything but we have four starters at middle linebacker. Harrison isn't going to be starting. Jarvis Jones will be starting. Harrison will likely be rotating with moats for no other reason than season longevity and effectiveness. He's a monster but he's an old monster. We also have a guy we signed from the cfl. Shawn lemon and I expect a outside backer in the first or second round.

So, are you unwilling to say who has the edge at the various slots?

Vagitron

@the-gipper said:
So, are you unwilling to say who has the edge at the various slots?

I don't believe you have a single linebacker on your roster that would push any of the steeler starters out of a job. Shazier is a freak of nature but he got injured. If dansby was on our roster and we drafted Shazier. Dansby would be the starter until Shazier pushes him out. I think both groups have wait and see situations.

Mudfly

If it helps you guys to decide, here are the combined pff ratings for them....

Moats(+7), Shazier(-3), Jones(-7) & Timmons(+11) have a combined score of + 8

Mingo(+8), Kruger(+10), Dansby(+14) & Robertson(+2) have a combined + 34

soooo.....there's that.....

Vagitron

@mudfly said:

If it helps you guys to decide, here are the combined pff ratings for them....

Moats(+7), Shazier(-3), Jones(-7) & Timmons(+11) have a combined score of + 8

Mingo(+8), Kruger(+10), Dansby(+14) & Robertson(+2) have a combined + 34

soooo.....there's that.....

Shazier and Jones played maybe 6 games combined last season. I would have to check for actual games recorded. Hardly a fair comparison.

Mudfly

Shazier played 9 and Jones had 7......Jones scored in the red everygame....probably woulda been -20 had he played the whole season....

its the fairest way to compare...our guys were hurt and missed games too..... and PFF grades what how they played when they were there....

Bottom line....whether you think it's fair or not.....they're not even close enough to debate......our guys have a history of performing and you're relying on the "potential" of 2 unproven 1 year players and maybe a future draft pick......

pound for pound...right now.....the Browns have the better corp

gumby73

Bottom line as I see it, Ben is the Biggest Difference between us. He has the trust to change the play to whatever he see's. O'Neil got his ass last one though..

Vagitron

@mudfly said:

Shazier played 9 and Jones had 7......Jones scored in the red everygame....probably woulda been -20 had he played the whole season....

its the fairest way to compare...our guys were hurt and missed games too..... and PFF grades what how they played when they were there....

Bottom line....whether you think it's fair or not.....they're not even close enough to debate......our guys have a history of performing and you're relying on the "potential" of 2 unproven 1 year players and maybe a future draft pick......

pound for pound...right now.....the Browns have the better corp

Your guys have a history of performing? How many of those guys have been a brown for a majority of their career? If the steelers are a wild card group so are the browns. Shazier played three games, missed 4, played two where he was coming back slowly and got rolled up on and then played in a back up capacity the last three. Jarvis broke his wrist. I don't disagree that I'm going off potential but shazie is a freak of nature. Jarvis Jones should be ready to go. Timmons is better than any lb on your roster and I'd take Harrison over kruger.

Vagitron

@gumby73 said:
Bottom line as I see it, Ben is the Biggest Difference between us. He has the trust to change the play to whatever he see's. O'Neil got his ass last one though..

Ben, Brown, Bell and Bryant. You also no longer have a tight end.

The Gipper

@mudfly said:

If it helps you guys to decide, here are the combined pff ratings for them....

Moats(+7), Shazier(-3), Jones(-7) & Timmons(+11) have a combined score of + 8

Mingo(+8), Kruger(+10), Dansby(+14) & Robertson(+2) have a combined + 34

soooo.....there's that.....

What are those numbers supposed to mean?

The Gipper

@vagitron said:
Shazier and Jones played maybe 6 games combined last season. I would have to check for actual games recorded. Hardly a fair comparison.

Are those PFF numbers lessened or diminished because of missed games? I am not familiar with how they work.

The Gipper

@mudfly said:

Shazier played 9 and Jones had 7......Jones scored in the red everygame....probably woulda been -20 had he played the whole season....

So, you are saying those grades only apply to games played.....if a player misses a game there is neither subtraction to the score nor addition for playing more games?

its the fairest way to compare...our guys were hurt and missed games too..... and PFF grades what how they played when they were there....

So? Whether a guy plays just 7 games....or 16, the negative/positive scores reflect the quality of his play in just the games he plays?

So, Jones -7 reflects a negative or poor score in the games he actually played....same for Shazier's negative score?

And comparatively, the positive scores by Mingo etc. reflect better play while they were in there?

Bottom line....whether you think it's fair or not.....they're not even close enough to debate......our guys have a history of performing and you're relying on the "potential" of 2 unproven 1 year players and maybe a future draft pick......

pound for pound...right now.....the Browns have the better corp

SuperSteelers

Right now the Browns have a better overall unit at the LB'er positions. Timmons is a stud and so is Harrison, but he isnt the same stud from a few years ago. Shazier and Jones still need to prove they can play and Moats is a filler that could excel in our D.

The Browns have a better overall D...The Steelers are going through a rough transition.

If it weren't for Ben, Bell, Brown, Bryant, Wheaton and our decent oline we would be at the bottom looking up.

Vagitron

@supersteelers said:

Right now the Browns have a better overall unit at the LB'er positions. Timmons is a stud and so is Harrison, but he isnt the same stud from a few years ago. Shazier and Jones still need to prove they can play and Moats is a filler that could excel in our D.

The Browns have a better overall D...The Steelers are going through a rough transition.

If it weren't for Ben, Bell, Brown, Bryant, Wheaton and our decent oline we would be at the bottom looking up.

The browns have a solid defense no doubt but better isn't a term I'd use unless you expect Jones, Shazier, tuitt and Thomas to fall on their face. I guess the reality is I have a lot of faith in our front office and our coaches. If the team was okay with guys like polamalu hanging them up and weren't concerned with really pushing to keep worilds there had to be confidence in the players we have on the roster. Our offensive line is also better than decent. If our coaches and talent evaluators sucked I'd probably be freaking out a bit. We have a number of guys that are unproven.

The Gipper

@vagitron said:
Your guys have a history of performing? How many of those guys have been a brown for a majority of their career? If the steelers are a wild card group so are the browns. Shazier played three games, missed 4, played two where he was coming back slowly and got rolled up on and then played in a back up capacity the last three. Jarvis broke his wrist. I don't disagree that I'm going off potential but shazie is a freak of nature. Jarvis Jones should be ready to go. Timmons is better than any lb on your roster and I'd take Harrison over kruger.

So? Are you disputing the validity of those scores that Mudfly posted from PFF? Do you think PFF scoring as a whole system is invalid? Or only when they go against your position?

My observations:

1.Timmons may be better than anyone on the Browns roster. I think he and Dansby are close. But I agree the slight edge goes to Timmons

2. Jarvis Jones hasn't been ready to go for two years. Even when healthy he hasn't been much to write home about. Right now it is neck and neck between he and Mingo on who is the biggest disappointment. You want to go on potential...I still think that Mingo has more upside potential than Jones (I also think the Browns have not been using him right. Edge to Mingo....still better potential...and actually better performance over 2 years.

3. Shazier certainly seems to be the man with potential....certainly he should outperform Robertson.. "Should"...but has he? And Kirksey has played just as "beast mode" as Shazier..if not better.

I am going to call a wash here until we see more from both of them. Shazier is the higher pick, the more touted player. But then somebody took Jamarcus Russell #1 overall. I am not saying Shazier will be that kind of bust. Yes he has the potential. But based on one year so far, he has not outperformed Kirksey.

4. And Harrison over Kruger? 7-10 years ago, maybe. He was LeBeau's creation, he should have gone out with him and Polamalu.

Advantage Kruger. Nostalgia has no place on the field in the 2015 season.

Vagitron

Our offense is ridiculous. Potentially best in the league ridiculous.

The Gipper

@vagitron said:

The browns have a solid defense no doubt but better isn't a term I'd use unless you expect Jones, Shazier, tuitt and Thomas to fall on their face.

I don't know that those guys will fall on their faces....but the fact is the Browns counterparts may be better than they.....

As noted: Mingo over Jones. Kirksey performing as well as Shazier so far. Tuitt is listed as RDE, Browns starting RDE listed as Desmond Bryant....I see no edge for Steelers there. Thomas certainly is not the current SS that Donte Whitner is. Whitner made the Pro Bowl, Thomas made second string.

I guess the reality is I have a lot of faith in our front office and our coaches.

Now, that is a fair position to take. Yes, they have obviously a better track record than the Browns.....but then, you are now missing the best coach you had. We will have to see how that factors in.

If the team was okay with guys like polamalu hanging them up and weren't concerned with really pushing to keep worilds there had to be confidence in the players we have on the roster.

Well, a blind mule could see that TP needed to hang them up. And Worilds? I don't know....maybe HE didn't want to play there anymore....or something. Losing him may have lost you more depth than you want to admit.

Our offensive line is also better than decent.

Half of it. Half is decent at best...if not less than decent. Let's say overall adequate to support the admittedly superior skill talent you have.

If our coaches and talent evaluators sucked I'd probably be freaking out a bit. We have a number of guys that are unproven.

Ya think? That includes some coaches.

Erie Dawg

@vagitron said:
Our offense is ridiculous. Potentially best in the league ridiculous.

lol, kind of a bold statement at this point don't you think?

Are your rankings buy passing yards, touchdowns, redzone? Just so we are all on the same page is all.

The Gipper

@vagitron said:
Our offense is ridiculous. Potentially best in the league ridiculous.

Maybe, but that is off topic. This is a Browns vs. Steeler linebacker thread. You can start your own thread about the Steelers offense against the World if you want.

SuperSteelers

@vagitron said:
The browns have a solid defense no doubt but better isn't a term I'd use unless you expect Jones, Shazier, tuitt and Thomas to fall on their face. I guess the reality is I have a lot of faith in our front office and our coaches. If the team was okay with guys like polamalu hanging them up and weren't concerned with really pushing to keep worilds there had to be confidence in the players we have on the roster. Our offensive line is also better than decent. If our coaches and talent evaluators sucked I'd probably be freaking out a bit. We have a number of guys that are unproven.

Thats where we disagree. Faith in the F/O is what I had when Colbert and Cowher were together, but since Tomlin, Colbert hasnt been as good, They held on to Troy 1 season too long because they had no suitable replacement. I have high hopes for Shark, but he still needs to prove. Tuitt is going to be awesome with Heyward and McClendon. Shazier will be a lot better this year, barring injury. Jones should be too. He was showing good until the wrist last year and never came back, but I'm sure the wrist made it hard to shed blocks.

Vagitron

@supersteelers said:

Thats where we disagree. Faith in the F/O is what I had when Colbert and Cowher were together, but since Tomlin, Colbert hasnt been as good, They held on to Troy 1 season too long because they had no suitable replacement. I have high hopes for Shark, but he still needs to prove. Tuitt is going to be awesome with Heyward and McClendon. Shazier will be a lot better this year, barring injury. Jones should be too. He was showing good until the wrist last year and never came back, but I'm sure the wrist made it hard to shed blocks.

I agree with every part of your post except for your bit on Tomlin and Colbert. I was and am a big cowher fan but it took him a long time to win the big one. I do believe some of that has to do with the patriots cheating the entire AFC but that's a secondary point. Troy didn't indicate until last season that he lost a step, injury may have masked it but his presence in the locker room and on the field cannot be denied. I've made the argument here that I'd have liked to see him take a pay cut and stay another. We also did draft a replacement but shark was battling hamstring problems. We signed mike Mitchell as well and paid him pretty good money. The team was addressing the secondary. Tomlin has also hit on a lot of players in the draft. He's missed on some too but run the list. A quick one would be Timmons, Brown, Bell, Heyward, Bryant, Wallace, Sanders, Wheaton although he's less proven. I think both Vince Williams and Spence are starters in this league and the team didn't give up on Spence after a pretty horrific injury. Decastro, beachum in the 7th. Pouncey and the most goes on...some of these guys are no brained draft picks but the point still stands. I don't know why certain steeler fans are hard on Tomlin. He's one of the most successful coaches in the nfl and his players love him.