How does an Orchard treat QBs?
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I think you are all missing the point of my original post. That was that it appears that the Browns had one hell of a draft by outward appearances. I found a source that said that they had 7 of the Top 100 available players. Someone reported that another source said they had 8 of the Top 100....which source did not even include one of the players the other source said was in that group. So, cumulatively you could argue that the Browns picked up as many as 9 of the top 100 players available.
Most teams would be lucky to get three of those. I would have to check it to see where some of our rivals did in this area.
See my list under the 7 of Top 100 thread for the data on this.
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Three 2014 games here...
http://draftbreakdown.com/players/nate-orchard/
Just looked at the Stanford game.
Nice rip-strip forced fumble and he got two sacks.
First sack (2:40) was a coverage sack, but 2nd (4:14) was a nice rush where he got a under Peat's pads.
Run D... not great... recognition issues.
Three 2014 games here...
http://draftbreakdown.com/players/nate-orchard/
Just looked at the Stanford game.
Nice rip-strip forced fumble and he got two sacks.
First sack (2:40) was a coverage sack, but 2nd (4:14) was a nice rush where he got a under Peat's pads.
Run D... not great... recognition issues.
Worth noting, Jim O'Neil said that our line Coaches (Moeller & DeLeone) informed him that film of Orchard was destroying intrigue for a lot of oline prospects he went up against. In particular, one has to wonder if his 3 sacks vrs Stanford made the Danny Shelton choice at #12 all the more easier. Orchard absolutely ragdolled Peat on one of the sacks so it certainly makes me wonder how he'd handle a matchup with T. Suggs in any game he's sloppy with bending and pad height.
Elite Left Tackles in the NFL have been able to go through a 16 game season giving up something like 1-2 sacks all season against some excellent athletes off the edge. There is no such thing as a coverage sack for this type of tackle striving to be the next Walter Jones or Joe Thomas for that matter. Does anyone remember where JJ Watt ended up the 1 time he lined up across from Joe Thomas last year? This should be easy because it was one of the only offensive replays we wanted to see more than once that day. He ended up on his back. Joe Thomas turned him into Wattshisname.
Lucky for Peat, the team drafting 13th overall thinks pad height is something they can correct beginning mini camp stances and starts drills. Back in the day, we did a board drill where 2 guys were facing each other in a 3 point stance as offensive linemen at the mid point of a board about 10 yards long and 1 foot wide. Here were the goals: 1) Be first to contact, 2) Come out of stance with the better pad height that allows you to keep your legs while the opponent loses his, 3) Keep your base wide enough so you don't over extend or fall off to one side, and 4) Finish him! Kick ass drill with a profound effect. I used that drill when I coached Offensive Line at the JV level in my first coaching experience and continued using it all the years I coached.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
Don't know how this will end up but you guys need to keep this going so I can see every color of the spectrum in your replies.
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Don't know how this will end up but you guys need to keep this going so I can see every color of the spectrum in your replies.
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Three 2014 games here...
http://draftbreakdown.com/players/nate-orchard/
Just looked at the Stanford game.
Nice rip-strip forced fumble and he got two sacks.
First sack (2:40) was a coverage sack, but 2nd (4:14) was a nice rush where he got a under Peat's pads.
Run D... not great... recognition issues.
Worth noting, Jim O'Neil said that our line Coaches (Moeller & DeLeone) informed him that film of Orchard was destroying intrigue for a lot of oline prospects he went up against. In particular, one has to wonder if his 3 sacks vrs Stanford made the Danny Shelton choice at #12 all the more easier. Orchard absolutely ragdolled Peat on one of the sacks so it certainly makes me wonder how he'd handle a matchup with T. Suggs in any game he's sloppy with bending and pad height.
Elite Left Tackles in the NFL have been able to go through a 16 game season giving up something like 1-2 sacks all season against some excellent athletes off the edge. There is no such thing as a coverage sack for this type of tackle striving to be the next Walter Jones or Joe Thomas for that matter. Does anyone remember where JJ Watt ended up the 1 time he lined up across from Joe Thomas last year? This should be easy because it was one of the only offensive replays we wanted to see more than once that day. He ended up on his back. Joe Thomas turned him into Wattshisname.
Lucky for Peat, the team drafting 13th overall thinks pad height is something they can correct beginning mini camp stances and starts drills. Back in the day, we did a board drill where 2 guys were facing each other in a 3 point stance as offensive linemen at the mid point of a board about 10 yards long and 1 foot wide. Here were the goals: 1) Be first to contact, 2) Come out of stance with the better pad height that allows you to keep your legs while the opponent loses his, 3) Keep your base wide enough so you don't over extend or fall off to one side, and 4) Finish him! Kick ass drill with a profound effect. I used that drill when I coached Offensive Line at the JV level in my first coaching experience and continued using it all the years I coached.
Very lively discussion around a 7th round pick...
There is no such thing as a coverage sack for this type of tackle striving to be the next Walter Jones or Joe Thomas for that matter.
LOL... Some of the shit you come up with is priceless.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
No, it isn't "shit"....it's priceless good funny stuff.
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No, it isn't "shit"....it's priceless good funny stuff.
LOL! Thanks Cal. Gotta keep it fun.
Not to look like a ka-nuckle that can't tell the difference between Summer School and Summer's Cool but how do I bring a video in here without using a link. Please keep it simple, I was that kid in the classroom that always had to ask the teacher to call on someone else while I'm still learning.
The other day, I cut and pasted 6 years of Mike Phipps stats that were supposed to read "UH-OH!" They got all scrambled up to the extent when I was reading the numbers I sounded like one of the adults on a Charlie Brown cartoon "Wua-Wua-WUA. WUA-WUA-WUA." That might actually mean something good in Pittsburgh; but in a more evolved part of society it was 1 major edit shy of a huge apology from me. Phew!
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Well, as a retired computer professional, I have no idea, except that
sometimes I can simply post the video url, and it pops up, and sometimes
it doesn't.
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Very lively discussion around a 7th round pick...
LOL... Some of the shit you come up with is priceless.
Tell you what - I would have loved to see you telling any line coach I ever played for "yeah it's okay I gave up a sack off the blind side because it was a coverage sack." I would have paid money to see it.
Now add in what NFL teams were investing in LTs like Joe Thomas, Orlando Pace, Walter Jones to protect that blind side and tell me exactly how often his position coach, OC or HC wants to hear "it's okay because it was a coverage sack." As I said earlier regarding those I just specified again - it wasn't all that uncommon to see one of those guys only giving up 1-2 sacks over 16 games. There is no such thing as a coverage sack in their world. Brady Quinn, Brandon Weeden and however many QBs we've had holding onto the ball way too long in the pocket never gave Joe Thomas an inventory of sacks that prevented him from making 8 consecutive Pro Bowls as a LT. That said, if he set the bar at excusing coverage sacks - it's an entirely different story.
If coverage sacks existed beyond fanspeak, why would Jim O'Neil say our 2 oline coaches informed him Orchard's film destroyed intrigue for several top oline prospects. They're not looking for 3 different alibis when Stanford gives up 3 sacks to Orchard. You know why? Joe Thomas is their LT so they have yet to worry about 3 sacks in 1 game let alone 1 season from Joe. All that said, I'd pay money to watch you try and straighten out both of them.
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Our QB coach (also the head coach) in high school said in a meeting once "you better get rid of it because no OL is holding blocks longer than 3-5 seconds. Is that right coach?" OL coach said yes.
By your standard, every play ought to be a completion because EVENTUALLY someone's going to get open so if the OL can't block long enough for that to happen they suck. Don't think so.
But yes of course you want your franchise LT to be a able to hold a second or two longer than normal.
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Our QB coach (also the head coach) in high school said in a meeting once "you better get rid of it because no OL is holding blocks longer than 3-5 seconds. Is that right coach?" OL coach said yes.
By your standard, every play ought to be a completion because EVENTUALLY someone's going to get open so if the OL can't block long enough for that to happen they suck. Don't think so.
But yes of course you want your franchise LT to be a able to hold a second or two longer than normal.
Our QB coach (also the head coach) in high school said in a meeting once "you better get rid of it because no OL is holding blocks longer than 3-5 seconds. Is that right coach?" OL coach said yes.
By your standard, every play ought to be a completion because EVENTUALLY someone's going to get open so if the OL can't block long enough for that to happen they suck. Don't think so.
But yes of course you want your franchise LT to be a able to hold a second or two longer than normal.
If they can't - you don't want want to burn your 12th pick overall on a LT that needs to start every play with a back pocket excuse. If you were a Cleveland Browns fan back in 2007 - the difference between Charlie Frye and a QB that will hang around in this league far longer was the understanding that one cannot hold onto the ball forever in the pocket. That shouldn't ever be on an olineman or his position coach and we agree on that much. Frye got benched after a lopsided loss in the 2007 opener from holding onto the ball too long; and the guy who replaced him started when we won 10 of the next 15 games. When Frye held onto the ball too long or Quinn did - it didn't necessarily mean there was perfect coverage as much as it meant we didn't have the right QB or experience at QB. All that said, which one of our countless QBs we've auditioned during the 8 year tenure of Joe Thomas has kept him from the Pro Bowl? Oh wait, you weren't here.
You're gonna have to start getting the difference between pro football and college football if you want anyone to take you serious in here. I tried sticking up for you and you kept arguing about college football in a thread that was pissing off Browns' fans right?
If you got the right QB Coach, OC or HC - you can let your offensive linemen and their position coaches stick with the way they are wired. I think you'll agree you don't want them starting every play with an easy back pocket excuse of a coverage sack. One of Peat's other sacks he got tossed like a salad by a guy 50 pounds lighter than him.
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It's not a back pocket excuse. It's awareness of limitations and expectations.
Knowing you can't do something that's impossible doesn't constitute having a back pocket excuse.
As I've said about 835,926,926,639 times, I've been a Browns fan my whole life. Father is from Cleveland. Both parents graduated from Lake Erie College. I joined the board in February. If I were only here because of Johnny wouldn't I have joined the board 10 months earlier? But thanks for the snide remark anyway.
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It's not a back pocket excuse. It's awareness of limitations and expectations.
Knowing you can't do something that's impossible doesn't constitute having a back pocket excuse.
As I've said about 835,926,926,639 times, I've been a Browns fan my whole life. Father is from Cleveland. Both parents graduated from Lake Erie College. I joined the board in February. If I were only here because of Johnny wouldn't I have joined the board 10 months earlier? But thanks for the snide remark anyway.
It's not a back pocket excuse. It's awareness of limitations and expectations.
Knowing you can't do something that's impossible doesn't constitute having a back pocket excuse.
As I've said about 835,926,926,639 times, I've been a Browns fan my whole life. Father is from Cleveland. Both parents graduated from Lake Erie College. I joined the board in February. If I were only here because of Johnny wouldn't I have joined the board 10 months earlier? But thanks for the snide remark anyway.
Okay so you are telling me at least 835,926,926,639 Browns fans before me think you're full of shit. Judging by the ones you continue to piss off in here- your priority remains to argue about college football and opponents on A&M's schedule even in a subject heading about Cleveland's hated rival in Pittsburgh.
BTW, don't try to speak for me when you can't even speak for yourself like you attempted to do in your last reply to me. QBs that hold onto the ball too long isn't always from great coverage in our history so they often get replaced as soon as possible.
The reality is Peat was drafted at #13 overall when we held the 12th pick overall when we discuss Nate Orchard overwhelming Stanford's pass protection on film. Our DC Jim O'Neil that everyone in here seems to know about except you - was the guy who felt compelled to say our 2 oline coaches mentioned how much Nate Orchard changed the intrigue toward several top oline prospects. Keep in mind how much the top rated OT prospect comes into play when he's still available when we're picking 12th. Also keep in mind that that Orlando Paces, Walter Jones, Joe Thomas, Jon Ogdens, Anthony Munoz weren't giving up 3 sacks a game to anyone to explain why they weren't falling as low as #13 overall as a top tackle prospect... Munoz could have had Paul McDonald as his college QB and coverage sacks would have been a non issue. Promise.
As I said, our 2 oline coaches weren't looking for alibis why Peat gave up 3 sacks vrs Orchard. That was because they are already coaching Joe Thomas that never gives that up in 1 game or in an entire season whether his QB was Charlie Frye, Brady Quinn or countless other inadequate QBs that held onto the ball too long in our pocket. Stop me when this gets too difficult. My argument here stands on 8 Pro Bowls from our LT regardless of how many substandard QBs that could never increase his sack volume. In the program best known for sending a soft tackle like Jonathan Martin into the NFL - I'm pretty freakin happy our 2 oline coaches noticed Orchard tossing Peat like a salad when the QB couldn't get scapegoated.
I welcome the only Defensive Coordinator to earn a Superbowl Ring in New Orleans while understanding Revenge of the Nerds is a sequel. "Come get some!" -
You can look at all those times (and I think it was twice anyway). Gipper went off about the A&M-Texas rivalry. Previously, Woody went on some anti-SEC rant. You will not see me openly initiating college football talk on this board, despite your preconceived notions.
Now if we can stick to the topic instead of the ad-hominem attacks....
You said "Tell you what - I would have loved to see you telling any line coach I ever played for "yeah it's okay I gave up a sack off the blind side because it was a coverage sack." I would have paid money to see it."
So JT's performance isn't really relevant by that standard. And even so, you're talking about the best LT in a GENERATION and his Pro Bowl sheet that has not been matched by any other OT in NFL history. You also cited Orlando Pace and Walter Jones, two likely first-ballot Hall of Famers. Sorry, but no one is drafting guys "expecting" careers similar to the ones those guys have turned in.
I agree anyone who gets worked like Peat did by a guy with a second round grade like Orchard probably shouldn't go 13th. Not quibbling with that. Just pushing back on the notion that coverage sacks aren't a legitimate thing. Hopefully your next response includes some civility. Won't hold my breath.
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You can look at all those times (and I think it was twice anyway). Gipper went off about the A&M-Texas rivalry. Previously, Woody went on some anti-SEC rant. You will not see me openly initiating college football talk on this board, despite your preconceived notions.
Now if we can stick to the topic instead of the ad-hominem attacks....
You said "Tell you what - I would have loved to see you telling any line coach I ever played for "yeah it's okay I gave up a sack off the blind side because it was a coverage sack." I would have paid money to see it."
So JT's performance isn't really relevant by that standard. And even so, you're talking about the best LT in a GENERATION and his Pro Bowl sheet that has not been matched by any other OT in NFL history. You also cited Orlando Pace and Walter Jones, two likely first-ballot Hall of Famers. Sorry, but no one is drafting guys "expecting" careers similar to the ones those guys have turned in.
I agree anyone who gets worked like Peat did by a guy with a second round grade like Orchard probably shouldn't go 13th. Not quibbling with that. Just pushing back on the notion that coverage sacks aren't a legitimate thing. Hopefully your next response includes some civility. Won't hold my breath.
You can look at all those times (and I think it was twice anyway). Gipper went off about the A&M-Texas rivalry. Previously, Woody went on some anti-SEC rant. You will not see me openly initiating college football talk on this board, despite your preconceived notions.
Now if we can stick to the topic instead of the ad-hominem attacks....
You said "Tell you what - I would have loved to see you telling any line coach I ever played for "yeah it's okay I gave up a sack off the blind side because it was a coverage sack." I would have paid money to see it."
So JT's performance isn't really relevant by that standard. And even so, you're talking about the best LT in a GENERATION and his Pro Bowl sheet that has not been matched by any other OT in NFL history. You also cited Orlando Pace and Walter Jones, two likely first-ballot Hall of Famers. Sorry, but no one is drafting guys "expecting" careers similar to the ones those guys have turned in.
I agree anyone who gets worked like Peat did by a guy with a second round grade like Orchard probably shouldn't go 13th. Not quibbling with that. Just pushing back on the notion that coverage sacks aren't a legitimate thing. Hopefully your next response includes some civility. Won't hold my breath.
Not going to take the time to go back and read the argument, but it seems like the main point Flugs was trying to highlight is that a player justifying a sack to a coach is like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound - it's not going to do much to keep you alive.
Regardless of the type of sack or the extenuating circumstances surrounding the situation, a sack is a sack is a sack.
Coverage sacks are just as worrisome as any other sack if they become commonplace, because it then highlights a lack of assignment knowledge and/or a lack of defensive recognition.
Don't know how that fits in, just figured I'd toss in my two cents...since I played OL at a competitive level.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
You can look at all those times (and I think it was twice anyway). Gipper went off about the A&M-Texas rivalry. Previously, Woody went on some anti-SEC rant. You will not see me openly initiating college football talk on this board, despite your preconceived notions.
Now if we can stick to the topic instead of the ad-hominem attacks....
You said "Tell you what - I would have loved to see you telling any line coach I ever played for "yeah it's okay I gave up a sack off the blind side because it was a coverage sack." I would have paid money to see it."
So JT's performance isn't really relevant by that standard. And even so, you're talking about the best LT in a GENERATION and his Pro Bowl sheet that has not been matched by any other OT in NFL history. You also cited Orlando Pace and Walter Jones, two likely first-ballot Hall of Famers. Sorry, but no one is drafting guys "expecting" careers similar to the ones those guys have turned in.
I agree anyone who gets worked like Peat did by a guy with a second round grade like Orchard probably shouldn't go 13th. Not quibbling with that. Just pushing back on the notion that coverage sacks aren't a legitimate thing. Hopefully your next response includes some civility. Won't hold my breath.
You can look at all those times (and I think it was twice anyway). Gipper went off about the A&M-Texas rivalry. Previously, Woody went on some anti-SEC rant. You will not see me openly initiating college football talk on this board, despite your preconceived notions.
Now if we can stick to the topic instead of the ad-hominem attacks....
You said "Tell you what - I would have loved to see you telling any line coach I ever played for "yeah it's okay I gave up a sack off the blind side because it was a coverage sack." I would have paid money to see it."
So JT's performance isn't really relevant by that standard.
Why wouldn't Joe Thomas' standard of 8 consecutive Pro Bowls be relevant to why we don't need Andrus Peat at #12 overall especially after our 2 oline coaches told our DC Jim O'Neil about Orchard's film destroying the chances of several top oline prospects coming here?
Whoever played QB here the last 8 years hasn't changed the standard of excellence Joe Thomas has given us in pass protection on the blind side. This is our football world we live in today; so you continue to lose me about all these coverage sacks I've been apparently missing from our blindside tackle.
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I don't think most coaches are going to grill you about a sack if the quarterback holds the ball 7 seconds, doesn't move, and doesn't even remotely try to shake the tackler or get rid of the ball. I know I heard plenty of times watching film "well this time ____ holds onto the ball forever. The end got by you with ____." And maybe the coach throws in some technique commentary, but it's not the normal yelling and anger that usually comes with a sack during film review.
If the coach grills you, then yeah, you're not gonna say "well coach he held on to the ball forever!" But you're generally not going to talk back to a coach for any reason.
I know as a DL when we watched film "it was a jet sweep so the ball was gone in .5 seconds" was a pretty good excuse for not getting a sack. Similar thing. Just reversed.
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That post was all in reply to Tim.
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Flug, I didn't realize you were addressing why we didn't take Peat. I thought you were trying to give Orchard more credit for a sack that was classified as a "coverage sack" by stating those don't exist. If this was just an analysis on why we didn't take Peat, then I'm good. Like I said, giving up three sacks in your draft year is definitely a good reason not to take him.
I will say this, to your point: at a minimum (at least in college where you don't see refined edge rushers most of the time), if you do lose control of the DE as an OT, it should be later than the rest of the OL does (if you're an elite prospect), which would mean the QB is already sacked by the time your guy gets by you.
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You can look at all those times (and I think it was twice anyway). Gipper went off about the A&M-Texas rivalry. Previously, Woody went on some anti-SEC rant. You will not see me openly initiating college football talk on this board, despite your preconceived notions.
Now if we can stick to the topic instead of the ad-hominem attacks....
You said "Tell you what - I would have loved to see you telling any line coach I ever played for "yeah it's okay I gave up a sack off the blind side because it was a coverage sack." I would have paid money to see it."
So JT's performance isn't really relevant by that standard. And even so, you're talking about the best LT in a GENERATION and his Pro Bowl sheet that has not been matched by any other OT in NFL history. You also cited Orlando Pace and Walter Jones, two likely first-ballot Hall of Famers. Sorry, but no one is drafting guys "expecting" careers similar to the ones those guys have turned in.
I agree anyone who gets worked like Peat did by a guy with a second round grade like Orchard probably shouldn't go 13th. Not quibbling with that. Just pushing back on the notion that coverage sacks aren't a legitimate thing. Hopefully your next response includes some civility. Won't hold my breath.
Not going to take the time to go back and read the argument, but it seems like the main point Flugs was trying to highlight is that a player justifying a sack to a coach is like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound - it's not going to do much to keep you alive.
Regardless of the type of sack or the extenuating circumstances surrounding the situation, a sack is a sack is a sack.
Coverage sacks are just as worrisome as any other sack if they become commonplace, because it then highlights a lack of assignment knowledge and/or a lack of defensive recognition.
Don't know how that fits in, just figured I'd toss in my two cents...since I played OL at a competitive level.
Not going to take the time to go back and read the argument, but it seems like the main point Flugs was trying to highlight is that a player justifying a sack to a coach is like putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound - it's not going to do much to keep you alive.
Regardless of the type of sack or the extenuating circumstances surrounding the situation, a sack is a sack is a sack.
Coverage sacks are just as worrisome as any other sack if they become commonplace, because it then highlights a lack of assignment knowledge and/or a lack of defensive recognition.
Don't know how that fits in, just figured I'd toss in my two cents...since I played OL at a competitive level.
Thanks Couch! Most of the time in here it doesn't matter if one played football or not in order to get their pov respected.
In this particular discussion, it's very helpful to get input from another guy that played oline at a competitive level in terms of communicating the necessary mindset of a lineman in the trenches and from the coaches he has to answer to. My very first reply to Tour acknowledges Qbs like Frye and Quinn held onto the ball too long. That said, there's no certainty that was always from great coverage which might explain why they didn't start very long.
Bigger point in the bigger picture I continue to repeat is what bad QB here since 2007 has spiked the volume of sacks Joe has given up? Because of Joe's mindset driving his standard of excellence at LT - I haven't seen our LT needing to hide behind coverage sack excuses very often, if ever.
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