Bubble players....who stays or goes....
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Browns definitely need to audition people for kick and punt return duties.
The head scratcher for me last year was the fact while Gilbert wasn't being very productive as a DB, why didn't they give him some return duties? He was one of the best in college when he played, no?
Were they just trying to protect their #8 overall investment?
Browns definitely need to audition people for kick and punt return duties.
The head scratcher for me last year was the fact while Gilbert wasn't being very productive as a DB, why didn't they give him some return duties? He was one of the best in college when he played, no?
Were they just trying to protect their #8 overall investment?
I think last year they were satisfied with Moore as the kick returner, so no reason to change up.......
It was "punt" returner that we really had issues with and Gilbert has never done that.....plus, returning punts is pretty dangerous, so yes, I think that they did want to protect the higher pick from that risk.....
They're working out new guys though...
OTA's has Benji, Tramon and Duke working at punt returner....
And Benji, Gilbert and Duke working at kick returner....
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Browns definitely need to audition people for kick and punt return duties.
The head scratcher for me last year was the fact while Gilbert wasn't being very productive as a DB, why didn't they give him some return duties? He was one of the best in college when he played, no?
Were they just trying to protect their #8 overall investment?
I think last year they were satisfied with Moore as the kick returner, so no reason to change up.......
It was "punt" returner that we really had issues with and Gilbert has never done that.....plus, returning punts is pretty dangerous, so yes, I think that they did want to protect the higher pick from that risk.....
They're working out new guys though...
OTA's has Benji, Tramon and Duke working at punt returner....
And Benji, Gilbert and Duke working at kick returner....
I think last year they were satisfied with Moore as the kick returner, so no reason to change up.......
I was certainly NOT satisfied...I don't see how they could have been....since I think we ranked no higher than 30th in that category....maybe last.
It was "punt" returner that we really had issues with and Gilbert has never done that.....plus, returning punts is pretty dangerous, so yes, I think that they did want to protect the higher pick from that risk.....
Oh? I thought it was punt returning that he did do in college.
They're working out new guys though...
OTA's has Benji, Tramon and Duke working at punt returner....
And Benji, Gilbert and Duke working at kick returner....
OK, well let us hope there is vast improvement.
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I think last year they were satisfied with Moore as the kick returner, so no reason to change up.......
I was certainly NOT satisfied...I don't see how they could have been....since I think we ranked no higher than 30th in that category....maybe last.
It was "punt" returner that we really had issues with and Gilbert has never done that.....plus, returning punts is pretty dangerous, so yes, I think that they did want to protect the higher pick from that risk.....
Oh? I thought it was punt returning that he did do in college.
They're working out new guys though...
OTA's has Benji, Tramon and Duke working at punt returner....
And Benji, Gilbert and Duke working at kick returner....
OK, well let us hope there is vast improvement.
I think last year they were satisfied with Moore as the kick returner, so no reason to change up.......
I was certainly NOT satisfied...I don't see how they could have been....since I think we ranked no higher than 30th in that category....maybe last.
My post clearly said they were satisfied with "MOORE"., not the kicking game in general. The TEAM might have ranked 28th, but MOORE averaged 25 yds per, which would have us ranked at 7th in the league......it was mostly BENJIMAN, at 20 yds a return, that dragged down the whole teams average.....so, 25 yds per VS 20 yds per is a HUGE difference....
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I think last year they were satisfied with Moore as the kick returner, so no reason to change up.......
I was certainly NOT satisfied...I don't see how they could have been....since I think we ranked no higher than 30th in that category....maybe last.
My post clearly said they were satisfied with "MOORE"., not the kicking game in general. The TEAM might have ranked 28th, but MOORE averaged 25 yds per, which would have us ranked at 7th in the league......it was mostly BENJIMAN, at 20 yds a return, that dragged down the whole teams average.....so, 25 yds per VS 20 yds per is a HUGE difference....
I think last year they were satisfied with Moore as the kick returner, so no reason to change up.......
I was certainly NOT satisfied...I don't see how they could have been....since I think we ranked no higher than 30th in that category....maybe last.
My post clearly said they were satisfied with "MOORE"., not the kicking game in general. The TEAM might have ranked 28th, but MOORE averaged 25 yds per, which would have us ranked at 7th in the league......it was mostly BENJIMAN, at 20 yds a return, that dragged down the whole teams average.....so, 25 yds per VS 20 yds per is a HUGE difference....
Well, I don't remember Moore doing anything spectacular in the return game. In fact, in checking....he only made 13 returns and average 24.8 ypr.....but his long return was all of 32 yards. Nothing at all to write home about. Still not satisfactory in my book.
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Kick returns are pointless anymore. Nearly 50% of kickoffs result in touchbacks, and I can't imagine how many reach the endzone but are still returned for 20 yards or less... All you need is somebody to catch the ball and kneel it... I hate the rule, but running it out of the endzone is just dumb...
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Kick returns are pointless anymore. Nearly 50% of kickoffs result in touchbacks, and I can't imagine how many reach the endzone but are still returned for 20 yards or less... All you need is somebody to catch the ball and kneel it... I hate the rule, but running it out of the endzone is just dumb...
Kick returns are pointless anymore. Nearly 50% of kickoffs result in touchbacks, and I can't imagine how many reach the endzone but are still returned for 20 yards or less... All you need is somebody to catch the ball and kneel it... I hate the rule, but running it out of the endzone is just dumb...
Last year the Eagles had 2 kickoff returns for TDs, plus 2 punt returns for TDs. The Rams and Packers both also had 2 punts returned for TDs. That certainly helps a team. And the Ravens and Chiefs had about a 28 yard average return on kickoffs, compared to 21 yards for the Browns. A seven yard head start on average for a drive certainly can help an offense.
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Browns definitely need to audition people for kick and punt return duties.
The head scratcher for me last year was the fact while Gilbert wasn't being very productive as a DB, why didn't they give him some return duties? He was one of the best in college when he played, no?
Were they just trying to protect their #8 overall investment?
I think last year they were satisfied with Moore as the kick returner, so no reason to change up.......
It was "punt" returner that we really had issues with and Gilbert has never done that.....plus, returning punts is pretty dangerous, so yes, I think that they did want to protect the higher pick from that risk.....
They're working out new guys though...
OTA's has Benji, Tramon and Duke working at punt returner....
And Benji, Gilbert and Duke working at kick returner....
... plus, returning punts is pretty dangerous, so yes, I think that they did want to protect the higher pick from that risk.....
I think the rule changes have really made kick returns more dangerous for the returner without the wedges of yesteryear and with the urgency attached to running our balls from the endzone... often deep in the endzone. Both are reasons I like size in return men these days.
Punts on the other hand... seems like there is still an ample chance to find a broken field... at least in the case of any over-kicked balls.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
... plus, returning punts is pretty dangerous, so yes, I think that they did want to protect the higher pick from that risk.....
I think the rule changes have really made kick returns more dangerous for the returner without the wedges of yesteryear and with the urgency attached to running our balls from the endzone... often deep in the endzone. Both are reasons I like size in return men these days.
Punts on the other hand... seems like there is still an ample chance to find a broken field... at least in the case of any over-kicked balls.
I think the rule changes have really made kick returns more dangerous for the returner without the wedges of yesteryear and with the urgency attached to running our balls from the endzone... often deep in the endzone. Both are reasons I like size in return men these days.
Punts on the other hand... seems like there is still an ample chance to find a broken field... at least in the case of any over-kicked balls.
That is why Cribbs was so good. He was big and hit holes hard. Benjamin, smaller, shiftier made a better punt returner.
Maybe Duke Johnson can be the new Eric Metcalf? That would be sweet.
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Kick returns are pointless anymore. Nearly 50% of kickoffs result in touchbacks, and I can't imagine how many reach the endzone but are still returned for 20 yards or less... All you need is somebody to catch the ball and kneel it... I hate the rule, but running it out of the endzone is just dumb...
Last year the Eagles had 2 kickoff returns for TDs, plus 2 punt returns for TDs. The Rams and Packers both also had 2 punts returned for TDs. That certainly helps a team. And the Ravens and Chiefs had about a 28 yard average return on kickoffs, compared to 21 yards for the Browns. A seven yard head start on average for a drive certainly can help an offense.
Last year the Eagles had 2 kickoff returns for TDs, plus 2 punt returns for TDs. The Rams and Packers both also had 2 punts returned for TDs. That certainly helps a team. And the Ravens and Chiefs had about a 28 yard average return on kickoffs, compared to 21 yards for the Browns. A seven yard head start on average for a drive certainly can help an offense.
Didn't say anything about punt returns. Just kickoff returns.
Last year there were 6 total KR TDs in the entire NFL. In 2010, the year before they moved it to the 35, there were 23. Also, last year, the top 32 return men averaged 24.2 kickoff returns over the course of the season with 45 (Devin Hester) being the most, while in 2010 the top 32 return men averaged 40.2 returns with 60 (Marc Mariani) being the most.
Kick returner has just become a position of little-to-no importance IMHO. If I was a coach/GM, I wouldn't factor that position into any type of roster move I was considering. I would just prepare 2-3 guys who I already know will make the team during the offseason. Basically, all you need is somebody out there who can catch and knee it, but mostly they will just watch the ball go over your head, which just about anybody can do...
Punt returner is an entirely different story...
#Justsayin' -
Last year the Eagles had 2 kickoff returns for TDs, plus 2 punt returns for TDs. The Rams and Packers both also had 2 punts returned for TDs. That certainly helps a team. And the Ravens and Chiefs had about a 28 yard average return on kickoffs, compared to 21 yards for the Browns. A seven yard head start on average for a drive certainly can help an offense.
Didn't say anything about punt returns. Just kickoff returns.
Last year there were 6 total KR TDs in the entire NFL. In 2010, the year before they moved it to the 35, there were 23. Also, last year, the top 32 return men averaged 24.2 kickoff returns over the course of the season with 45 (Devin Hester) being the most, while in 2010 the top 32 return men averaged 40.2 returns with 60 (Marc Mariani) being the most.
Kick returner has just become a position of little-to-no importance IMHO. If I was a coach/GM, I wouldn't factor that position into any type of roster move I was considering. I would just prepare 2-3 guys who I already know will make the team during the offseason. Basically, all you need is somebody out there who can catch and knee it, but mostly they will just watch the ball go over your head, which just about anybody can do...
Punt returner is an entirely different story...
Didn't say anything about punt returns. Just kickoff returns.
Last year there were 6 total KR TDs in the entire NFL. In 2010, the year before they moved it to the 35, there were 23. Also, last year, the top 32 return men averaged 24.2 kickoff returns over the course of the season with 45 (Devin Hester) being the most, while in 2010 the top 32 return men averaged 40.2 returns with 60 (Marc Mariani) being the most.
Kick returner has just become a position of little-to-no importance IMHO. If I was a coach/GM, I wouldn't factor that position into any type of roster move I was considering. I would just prepare 2-3 guys who I already know will make the team during the offseason. Basically, all you need is somebody out there who can catch and knee it, but mostly they will just watch the ball go over your head, which just about anybody can do...
Punt returner is an entirely different story...
OK, so, 50% of kickoffs are touchbacks. That means 50% of them are returned. Josh Cribbs of the Colts average 32.0 yards per return on 19 returns last year. Adam Jones of the Bengals had 27 returns for a 31.3 yard average. Jacoby Jones had 32 returns for a 30.6 yard average.
The Cleveland Browns averaged 21.6 yards per kick return on 38 total returns.
What that means is that the Browns offense was put in a full first downs distance hole on 50% of their drives after an opponents score (or at the beginning of the game or at the half) compared to some of our closest competitors as a result of our kick return game. When they basically all got to start their drives on average from the 30 yard line, where we had to start ours from the 20.....that makes a big difference. Ask any of our offensive coaches/QB/players if they would like to start their drives on average 10 yards down the field....see what they say.
Field position is huge in the NFL.......a kick returner that can give you a 10 yard head start is huge.
(of course, it is not all on the return man.....the kick blocking has to also be taught right...I don't know is our ST coaches did a very good job of that.)
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https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/kickoff-touchback-pct
See this source.....leaguewide it appears that it was just about 50/50 touchbacks vs. kicks returned.
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https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/kickoff-touchback-pct
See this source.....leaguewide it appears that it was just about 50/50 touchbacks vs. kicks returned.
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/kickoff-touchback-pct
See this source.....leaguewide it appears that it was just about 50/50 touchbacks vs. kicks returned.
And the Browns were WAY above the curve, returning 70% of their KO's.....
I agree with New23 though, that creating a roster spot just for kick a returner (or punt returner) isnt a good move.....
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https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/kickoff-touchback-pct
See this source.....leaguewide it appears that it was just about 50/50 touchbacks vs. kicks returned.
And the Browns were WAY above the curve, returning 70% of their KO's.....
I agree with New23 though, that creating a roster spot just for kick a returner (or punt returner) isnt a good move.....
And the Browns were WAY above the curve, returning 70% of their KO's.....
I agree with New23 though, that creating a roster spot just for kick a returner (or punt returner) isnt a good move.....
No, that is not what I advocate. (though couldn't it depend on the guy.....Cribbs was certainly worth a roster spot in his prime). Normally, yes, the KR/PR needs to have other duties: RB/WR/DB etc.
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https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/kickoff-touchback-pct
See this source.....leaguewide it appears that it was just about 50/50 touchbacks vs. kicks returned.
And the Browns were WAY above the curve, returning 70% of their KO's.....
I agree with New23 though, that creating a roster spot just for kick a returner (or punt returner) isnt a good move.....
And the Browns were WAY above the curve, returning 70% of their KO's.....
Look past those stats... how many of our 70% were "stupid" returns from the endzone that ended up getting us nowhere past the 20 that should've been touched back instead...?
Josh Cribbs of the Colts average 32.0 yards per return on 19 returns last year. Adam Jones of the Bengals had 27 returns for a 31.3 yard average. Jacoby Jones had 32 returns for a 30.6 yard average.
The Cleveland Browns averaged 21.6 yards per kick return on 38 total returns.
You're looking at the wrong statistic. Yards per return includes yards in the endzone. Some of those returns could've have been just productive with a kneel down.
Average starting field position following a kickoff for the Browns last year was at the 20.00 which ranked 30th last year. The best in the NFL was at the 25.30 (Cincy) which is a difference of 5.30 yards... Not exactly a "whole first down," but I guess not exactly "Nothing." Still, not worth a roster spot just for a KR. As long as we have somebody who can kneel when he should, and run it out when he should we will be okay...
I could be wrong. Maybe I'll put in the field position numbers and see if I find a correlation with the "Drive success rate," and see what that looks like. I don't have the time right now.
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And the Browns were WAY above the curve, returning 70% of their KO's.....
Look past those stats... how many of our 70% were "stupid" returns from the endzone that ended up getting us nowhere past the 20 that should've been touched back instead...?
Josh Cribbs of the Colts average 32.0 yards per return on 19 returns last year. Adam Jones of the Bengals had 27 returns for a 31.3 yard average. Jacoby Jones had 32 returns for a 30.6 yard average.
The Cleveland Browns averaged 21.6 yards per kick return on 38 total returns.
You're looking at the wrong statistic. Yards per return includes yards in the endzone. Some of those returns could've have been just productive with a kneel down.
Average starting field position following a kickoff for the Browns last year was at the 20.00 which ranked 30th last year. The best in the NFL was at the 25.30 (Cincy) which is a difference of 5.30 yards... Not exactly a "whole first down," but I guess not exactly "Nothing." Still, not worth a roster spot just for a KR. As long as we have somebody who can kneel when he should, and run it out when he should we will be okay...
I could be wrong. Maybe I'll put in the field position numbers and see if I find a correlation with the "Drive success rate," and see what that looks like. I don't have the time right now.
Look past those stats... how many of our 70% were "stupid" returns from the endzone that ended up getting us nowhere past the 20 that should've been touched back instead...?
You're looking at the wrong statistic. Yards per return includes yards in the endzone. Some of those returns could've have been just productive with a kneel down.
Average starting field position following a kickoff for the Browns last year was at the 20.00 which ranked 30th last year. The best in the NFL was at the 25.30 (Cincy) which is a difference of 5.30 yards... Not exactly a "whole first down," but I guess not exactly "Nothing." Still, not worth a roster spot just for a KR. As long as we have somebody who can kneel when he should, and run it out when he should we will be okay...
I could be wrong. Maybe I'll put in the field position numbers and see if I find a correlation with the "Drive success rate," and see what that looks like. I don't have the time right now.
Again, I don't know where you are getting that I said "reserve a roster spot just for a kick returner".
And I think it is you who are looking at the wrong stat:
The stat you gave give average field position following kickoffs. We all admit that on average 50% of KOs result in touchbacks.
The stat we need to look at is "average field position following returned kickoffs" in other words...exclude touchbacks.
Then that 5.3 yard difference might double.
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Last year the Eagles had 2 kickoff returns for TDs, plus 2 punt returns for TDs. The Rams and Packers both also had 2 punts returned for TDs. That certainly helps a team. And the Ravens and Chiefs had about a 28 yard average return on kickoffs, compared to 21 yards for the Browns. A seven yard head start on average for a drive certainly can help an offense.
Didn't say anything about punt returns. Just kickoff returns.
Last year there were 6 total KR TDs in the entire NFL. In 2010, the year before they moved it to the 35, there were 23. Also, last year, the top 32 return men averaged 24.2 kickoff returns over the course of the season with 45 (Devin Hester) being the most, while in 2010 the top 32 return men averaged 40.2 returns with 60 (Marc Mariani) being the most.
Kick returner has just become a position of little-to-no importance IMHO. If I was a coach/GM, I wouldn't factor that position into any type of roster move I was considering. I would just prepare 2-3 guys who I already know will make the team during the offseason. Basically, all you need is somebody out there who can catch and knee it, but mostly they will just watch the ball go over your head, which just about anybody can do...
Punt returner is an entirely different story...
If I was a coach/GM, I wouldn't factor that position into any type of roster move I was considering.
Nor would I......
And the Browns were WAY above the curve, returning 70% of their KO's.....
Look past those stats... how many of our 70% were "stupid" returns from the endzone that ended up getting us nowhere past the 20 that should've been touched back instead...?
Why look past the stat when it's real?......I dont know. How many were stupid returns??....I just know "if" we're returning 70%, then a good return man would be a good thing to have....and if the point is that we shouldnt even be returning kicks, then Pettine is the one to tell....not me(cause i absolutely love watching kick returns)...
The stat we need to look at is "average field position following returned kickoffs"
Agreed....on KO's we return....we obviously want the best return possible.....(this is just common sense)(isnt it??).....
We already endured this scenario on Punts and it was brutal watching fair catch after fair catch......So I would hate to see the same happen with KO's....
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Offhand I can only recall seeing a fair catch on a Kick-off once...
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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