Ohio: The bandwagon state
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I don't know a single Steeler fan that fits the description you just wrote.
Really, the Steelers are good because we cheer? We have no clue about the Steelers history? Wow, that's just untrue and reflective of a bitter rival who is jealous of the opponent's success. Do some Steeler fans get under your skin? I'm sure. Do Browns fans get under my skin some times? Surely. To say they're all stupid because Zombo predicts a Steelers loss every week, or because you think the Browns are every bit as good as the Steelers except for at qb when year after year there's objective evidence to prove otherwise doesn't make me think all Browns fans are stupid either. Nor does it make me think you or Zombo are stupid. You have strong misguided opinions at times and Zombo says ridiculous things for effect. It's what make you guys interesting to an outsider. Please don't take offence.
Well, apparently you have not been around the same Steeler fans we have. Actually I think that is true. We here get exposed to the FRAK fans....who probably are overall stupider than your basic truly loyal Steeler fan....so really, it is your FRAK fan base that is probably bringing you down....and you should be glad to be rid of them.
As for the Browns being as good as the Steelers.....they are in this regard: If you take the 22 starting positions, the Browns probably have the better player at like 15 of them.
Critically, of course IS the QB. QBs matter.
Also....yes, there is more to it. Having better talent hasn't meant that that talent has been better trained, better coached, better synthesized into what an organization is doing. Organizational instability can clearly negate the advantage in talent.
Or as I say....it is the opposite of the common phrase "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts". In the Browns case, often the whole has been less than the sum of its parts. That is an important factor.
I mean, over the past few years the Browns in fact have had a big edge on the Steelers in terms of numbers of Pro Bowlers. It hasn't translated into a winning record....but the base talent is there.
One of if not the greatest asset Bell brings to the Steelers is his blocking ability. His pass blocking was a huge reason Ben threw for 5,000yds last year. Sure, he gained a lot of yards from scrimmage and he gets a lot of credit for that. He's tough, has good vision and patience, but he's no burner by any measure. He's a really good runner and receiver. He's an exceptional blocker and it goes unnoticed.
Is Johnson a good blocker?
I don't know how to quantify the blocking. Our runners last year were primarily rookies, so I am going to guess that their blocking skills were not up to veteran like quality.
And I don't know about Johnson's blocking skills. I would have to look at the scouting reports....but I do know that in his case it would probably be his secondary assignment.
You and I have had the talent debate before so there's no sense in going through it again. And as far as Pro Bowls goes, I'm not going to look it up but Pro Bowl appearances mean nothing to me. Ben Roethlisberger has been one of the best players in the league year after year and has only been selected to a few Pro Bowls. Some players go to the Pro Bowl after the players voted ahead of them bow out for injury or other reasons. That player then is forever known as a Pro Bowler when he may have been the 3rd or 4th option the particular year he went. Lawrence Timmons has played at a Pro Bowl level for a long time but only made his first one last year. It's not a great indicator of much and sometimes I think it's little more than a popularity contest.
And irregardless....just look at the teams. I don't know that their is a single Steelers OLineman that one would take over a Browns OLineman. (depends on who DeCastro is matched against....if against Bito...no way. If against Greco...yes) Same with the DB. Pretty close to the same with the DE. LBs? About equal....maybe slightly in Pitts favor.
Steelers get edge at Offensive skill players for certain (especially with no Gordon).
Your opinion is so over the top it's laughable. Give me some objective evidence. Don't just say so and so Brown is better than so and so Steeler without backing it up with something. I know, we've done this before...you said Mack was better than Pouncey because he had more Pro Bowls, All Pro's, etc. I showed contradicting evidence proving that wasn't true. Mudfly cited PFF. Great. At least that's something. But if you wouldn't trade any linemen straight up why do the Steelers consistantly run for more yards, pass for more yards, score more points, and win more than the Browns?
What makes Mack more "talented" than Pouncey? 40 time? bench? vertical? I don't know, I'm asking you. You make a lot of unsubstantiated claims. You state your opinion as fact. Back it up. According to NFL.com the Steelers offense scored 436 pts and had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL last year. Cleveland scored 299 and was ranked 23. How could that possibly be if Cleveland was clearly superior in the offensive line? How could the Steelers have the #2 offense with an inferior line? Bell doesn't make his own holes. Ben holds the ball longer than anyone. How can the talent blocking for them be so weak? Hell, ask your buddy Mudfly to provide the PFF ratings all the way down the line. I'll buy that.
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Why so harsh? Are you 12? Is this where I start talking about how great your mom's asshole feels? You and I have never met nor will we. What's the point in flexing your internet muscles when you know it will never go anywhere? Does it make you feel better about yourself when you say something to someone you would never dare say to their face? I'm guessing that's the case. Should I call you a shit stain and anxiously await another insult? Is that what you like to do?
Zombo said:
HAha....Yeah, it was a Steeler fan that posted the "Pain Rankings" thread.
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Stuart said:
HAha....Yeah, it was a Steeler fan that posted the "Pain Rankings" thread.
???????
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And irregardless....just look at the teams. I don't know that their is a single Steelers OLineman that one would take over a Browns OLineman. (depends on who DeCastro is matched against....if against Bito...no way. If against Greco...yes) Same with the DB. Pretty close to the same with the DE. LBs? About equal....maybe slightly in Pitts favor.
Steelers get edge at Offensive skill players for certain (especially with no Gordon).
Your opinion is so over the top it's laughable. Give me some objective evidence. Don't just say so and so Brown is better than so and so Steeler without backing it up with something. I know, we've done this before...you said Mack was better than Pouncey because he had more Pro Bowls, All Pro's, etc. I showed contradicting evidence proving that wasn't true. Mudfly cited PFF. Great. At least that's something. But if you wouldn't trade any linemen straight up why do the Steelers consistantly run for more yards, pass for more yards, score more points, and win more than the Browns?
They didn't run for more yards....it was about the same. And they passed for more yards because they had Ben Roethlisberger and Antonio Brown...DUH
What makes Mack more "talented" than Pouncey? 40 time? bench? vertical? I don't know, I'm asking you. You make a lot of unsubstantiated claims. You state your opinion as fact. Back it up.
Mack and Pouncey is the one spot on the OL that is pretty close. I think Mack edges Pouncey out a bit....you think the opposite because we are both homers.
But that's all you got....a maybe argument for Pouncey.
According to NFL.com the Steelers offense scored 436 pts and had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL last year. Cleveland scored 299 and was ranked 23. How could that possibly be if Cleveland was clearly superior in the offensive line? How could the Steelers have the #2 offense with an inferior line? Bell doesn't make his own holes. Ben holds the ball longer than anyone. How can the talent blocking for them be so weak? Hell, ask your buddy Mudfly to provide the PFF ratings all the way down the line. I'll buy that.
I don't think I said they were an inferior offensive line....I said that they were not as good as the Browns. (Can you read the words that are coming out of my mouth). Again....your offensive skill players are far superior to the Browns without Gordon....that is why you have the edge there....or are you trying to claim that your team's offensive prowess is all about the OLine....that your skill players are irrelevant?
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Here's a recent article listing the 10 best O linemen from last season and we have 2 of them(Bito & Thomas)......
No Stillers on the list.....though, 4 out of 10 are from our division.....
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And irregardless....just look at the teams. I don't know that their is a single Steelers OLineman that one would take over a Browns OLineman. (depends on who DeCastro is matched against....if against Bito...no way. If against Greco...yes) Same with the DB. Pretty close to the same with the DE. LBs? About equal....maybe slightly in Pitts favor.
Steelers get edge at Offensive skill players for certain (especially with no Gordon).
Your opinion is so over the top it's laughable. Give me some objective evidence. Don't just say so and so Brown is better than so and so Steeler without backing it up with something. I know, we've done this before...you said Mack was better than Pouncey because he had more Pro Bowls, All Pro's, etc. I showed contradicting evidence proving that wasn't true. Mudfly cited PFF. Great. At least that's something. But if you wouldn't trade any linemen straight up why do the Steelers consistantly run for more yards, pass for more yards, score more points, and win more than the Browns?
They didn't run for more yards....it was about the same. And they passed for more yards because they had Ben Roethlisberger and Antonio Brown...DUH
What makes Mack more "talented" than Pouncey? 40 time? bench? vertical? I don't know, I'm asking you. You make a lot of unsubstantiated claims. You state your opinion as fact. Back it up.
Mack and Pouncey is the one spot on the OL that is pretty close. I think Mack edges Pouncey out a bit....you think the opposite because we are both homers.
But that's all you got....a maybe argument for Pouncey.
According to NFL.com the Steelers offense scored 436 pts and had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL last year. Cleveland scored 299 and was ranked 23. How could that possibly be if Cleveland was clearly superior in the offensive line? How could the Steelers have the #2 offense with an inferior line? Bell doesn't make his own holes. Ben holds the ball longer than anyone. How can the talent blocking for them be so weak? Hell, ask your buddy Mudfly to provide the PFF ratings all the way down the line. I'll buy that.
I don't think I said they were an inferior offensive line....I said that they were not as good as the Browns. (Can you read the words that are coming out of my mouth). Again....your offensive skill players are far superior to the Browns without Gordon....that is why you have the edge there....or are you trying to claim that your team's offensive prowess is all about the OLine....that your skill players are irrelevant?
And irregardless....just look at the teams. I don't know that their is a single Steelers OLineman that one would take over a Browns OLineman. (depends on who DeCastro is matched against....if against Bito...no way. If against Greco...yes) Same with the DB. Pretty close to the same with the DE. LBs? About equal....maybe slightly in Pitts favor.
Steelers get edge at Offensive skill players for certain (especially with no Gordon).
Your opinion is so over the top it's laughable. Give me some objective evidence. Don't just say so and so Brown is better than so and so Steeler without backing it up with something. I know, we've done this before...you said Mack was better than Pouncey because he had more Pro Bowls, All Pro's, etc. I showed contradicting evidence proving that wasn't true. Mudfly cited PFF. Great. At least that's something. But if you wouldn't trade any linemen straight up why do the Steelers consistantly run for more yards, pass for more yards, score more points, and win more than the Browns?
They didn't run for more yards....it was about the same. And they passed for more yards because they had Ben Roethlisberger and Antonio Brown...DUH
What makes Mack more "talented" than Pouncey? 40 time? bench? vertical? I don't know, I'm asking you. You make a lot of unsubstantiated claims. You state your opinion as fact. Back it up.
Mack and Pouncey is the one spot on the OL that is pretty close. I think Mack edges Pouncey out a bit....you think the opposite because we are both homers.
But that's all you got....a maybe argument for Pouncey.
According to NFL.com the Steelers offense scored 436 pts and had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL last year. Cleveland scored 299 and was ranked 23. How could that possibly be if Cleveland was clearly superior in the offensive line? How could the Steelers have the #2 offense with an inferior line? Bell doesn't make his own holes. Ben holds the ball longer than anyone. How can the talent blocking for them be so weak? Hell, ask your buddy Mudfly to provide the PFF ratings all the way down the line. I'll buy that.
I don't think I said they were an inferior offensive line....I said that they were not as good as the Browns. (Can you read the words that are coming out of my mouth). Again....your offensive skill players are far superior to the Browns without Gordon....that is why you have the edge there....or are you trying to claim that your team's offensive prowess is all about the OLine....that your skill players are irrelevant?
No, I'm trying to understand how you can say every GM would pick the Brown at every line position. You keep saying they're more talented and I'm asking you to quantify it instead of just saying it as if to think otherwise is stupid. If you said based on performance (some metric) the Browns line was better than the Steelers we could have and apples to apples discussion. You just keep saying they're better/more talented at every position as if it's not debatable.
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And irregardless....just look at the teams. I don't know that their is a single Steelers OLineman that one would take over a Browns OLineman. (depends on who DeCastro is matched against....if against Bito...no way. If against Greco...yes) Same with the DB. Pretty close to the same with the DE. LBs? About equal....maybe slightly in Pitts favor.
Steelers get edge at Offensive skill players for certain (especially with no Gordon).
Your opinion is so over the top it's laughable. Give me some objective evidence. Don't just say so and so Brown is better than so and so Steeler without backing it up with something. I know, we've done this before...you said Mack was better than Pouncey because he had more Pro Bowls, All Pro's, etc. I showed contradicting evidence proving that wasn't true. Mudfly cited PFF. Great. At least that's something. But if you wouldn't trade any linemen straight up why do the Steelers consistantly run for more yards, pass for more yards, score more points, and win more than the Browns?
They didn't run for more yards....it was about the same. And they passed for more yards because they had Ben Roethlisberger and Antonio Brown...DUH
What makes Mack more "talented" than Pouncey? 40 time? bench? vertical? I don't know, I'm asking you. You make a lot of unsubstantiated claims. You state your opinion as fact. Back it up.
Mack and Pouncey is the one spot on the OL that is pretty close. I think Mack edges Pouncey out a bit....you think the opposite because we are both homers.
But that's all you got....a maybe argument for Pouncey.
According to NFL.com the Steelers offense scored 436 pts and had the #2 ranked offense in the NFL last year. Cleveland scored 299 and was ranked 23. How could that possibly be if Cleveland was clearly superior in the offensive line? How could the Steelers have the #2 offense with an inferior line? Bell doesn't make his own holes. Ben holds the ball longer than anyone. How can the talent blocking for them be so weak? Hell, ask your buddy Mudfly to provide the PFF ratings all the way down the line. I'll buy that.
I don't think I said they were an inferior offensive line....I said that they were not as good as the Browns. (Can you read the words that are coming out of my mouth). Again....your offensive skill players are far superior to the Browns without Gordon....that is why you have the edge there....or are you trying to claim that your team's offensive prowess is all about the OLine....that your skill players are irrelevant?
No, I'm trying to understand how you can say every GM would pick the Brown at every line position. You keep saying they're more talented and I'm asking you to quantify it instead of just saying it as if to think otherwise is stupid. If you said based on performance (some metric) the Browns line was better than the Steelers we could have and apples to apples discussion. You just keep saying they're better/more talented at every position as if it's not debatable.
No, I'm trying to understand how you can say every GM would pick the Brown at every line position. You keep saying they're more talented and I'm asking you to quantify it instead of just saying it as if to think otherwise is stupid. If you said based on performance (some metric) the Browns line was better than the Steelers we could have and apples to apples discussion. You just keep saying they're better/more talented at every position as if it's not debatable.
Oh yeah, for clarification, they did run for more yards and with 50 fewer carries so there's that.
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Irregardless isn't a word.
"You planning on having a long relationship with that glass or are you going to drink it? Drink up, man. Maybe we can get another.” - Janis Joplin, 1970. -
Here's a recent article listing the 10 best O linemen from last season and we have 2 of them(Bito & Thomas)......
No Stillers on the list.....though, 4 out of 10 are from our division.....
Here's a recent article listing the 10 best O linemen from last season and we have 2 of them(Bito & Thomas)......
No Stillers on the list.....though, 4 out of 10 are from our division.....
Although I'll give you credit for finding that it's just an opinion piece and if you read the part about your guard it says nothing about him that makes him so great. It's a start though.
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PFF grades the Browns line at 77.5 and the Stillers line at 42.5.....so there that(it's not even close really)
Thomas 33.5 vs Beachum 21.7
Bitonio 22.4 vs Foster -0.9
Mack 6.9 vs Pouncey 9.8 (note: w/o injury, mack would average out to 22.3)(much higher "per game" score)
Greco 14.2 vs Decastro 5.2
Schwartz 0.5 vs Gilbert 6.8....
So....reality is that Schwartz is the only one with a lower average score......and Bito, Thomas, Greco AND Mack score way way higher.....
Id say these are the most objective and thorough ratings available.....much more solid than just opinion....
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No, I'm trying to understand how you can say every GM would pick the Brown at every line position. You keep saying they're more talented and I'm asking you to quantify it instead of just saying it as if to think otherwise is stupid. If you said based on performance (some metric) the Browns line was better than the Steelers we could have and apples to apples discussion. You just keep saying they're better/more talented at every position as if it's not debatable.
Oh yeah, for clarification, they did run for more yards and with 50 fewer carries so there's that.
Oh yeah, for clarification, they did run for more yards and with 50 fewer carries so there's that.
Like I said "about the same"
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PFF grades the Browns line at 77.5 and the Stillers line at 42.5.....so there that(it's not even close really)
Thomas 33.5 vs Beachum 21.7
Bitonio 22.4 vs Foster -0.9
Mack 6.9 vs Pouncey 9.8 (note: w/o injury, mack would average out to 22.3)(much higher "per game" score)
Greco 14.2 vs Decastro 5.2
Schwartz 0.5 vs Gilbert 6.8....
So....reality is that Schwartz is the only one with a lower average score......and Bito, Thomas, Greco AND Mack score way way higher.....
Id say these are the most objective and thorough ratings available.....much more solid than just opinion....
PFF grades the Browns line at 77.5 and the Stillers line at 42.5.....so there that(it's not even close really)
Thomas 33.5 vs Beachum 21.7
Bitonio 22.4 vs Foster -0.9
Mack 6.9 vs Pouncey 9.8 (note: w/o injury, mack would average out to 22.3)(much higher "per game" score)
Greco 14.2 vs Decastro 5.2
Schwartz 0.5 vs Gilbert 6.8....
So....reality is that Schwartz is the only one with a lower average score......and Bito, Thomas, Greco AND Mack score way way higher.....
Id say these are the most objective and thorough ratings available.....much more solid than just opinion....
But I would not trade The Schwartz for Gilbert......would you?
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Irregardless isn't a word.
Irregardless isn't a word.
New words are created all the time.
Just call me "The Creator" if you would like.
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PFF grades the Browns line at 77.5 and the Stillers line at 42.5.....so there that(it's not even close really)
Thomas 33.5 vs Beachum 21.7
Bitonio 22.4 vs Foster -0.9
Mack 6.9 vs Pouncey 9.8 (note: w/o injury, mack would average out to 22.3)(much higher "per game" score)
Greco 14.2 vs Decastro 5.2
Schwartz 0.5 vs Gilbert 6.8....
So....reality is that Schwartz is the only one with a lower average score......and Bito, Thomas, Greco AND Mack score way way higher.....
Id say these are the most objective and thorough ratings available.....much more solid than just opinion....
But I would not trade The Schwartz for Gilbert......would you?
But I would not trade The Schwartz for Gilbert......would you?
I doubt it.....they have different strengths......Schwartz is a much stronger pass protector, while Gilbert is a stronger run blocker....
I guess, if I had to choose one, Id pick pass blocker because I want to protect my QB.....
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But I would not trade The Schwartz for Gilbert......would you?
I doubt it.....they have different strengths......Schwartz is a much stronger pass protector, while Gilbert is a stronger run blocker....
I guess, if I had to choose one, Id pick pass blocker because I want to protect my QB.....
I doubt it.....they have different strengths......Schwartz is a much stronger pass protector, while Gilbert is a stronger run blocker....
I guess, if I had to choose one, Id pick pass blocker because I want to protect my QB.....
Plus, Schwartz is a year younger and has never missed a snap, while Gilbert has missed 15 games to injury the past three years.
Zombo
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and, since they've been in the league, this is the first time Gilbert has a higher score than Schwartz(and this is Gilberts highest score ever and Schwartz' lowest).....so, historically, Schwartz has outscored Gilbert every year but 2014...in terms of points, play AND durability....
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So ... five for five then, and that doesn't include our first round draft pick.
Next ...
Zombo
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and, since they've been in the league, this is the first time Gilbert has a higher score than Schwartz(and this is Gilberts highest score ever and Schwartz' lowest).....so, historically, Schwartz has outscored Gilbert every year but 2014...in terms of points, play AND durability....
and, since they've been in the league, this is the first time Gilbert has a higher score than Schwartz(and this is Gilberts highest score ever and Schwartz' lowest).....so, historically, Schwartz has outscored Gilbert every year but 2014...in terms of points, play AND durability....
His entire career he has been better...because he is better. There it is.
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So ... five for five then, and that doesn't include our first round draft pick.
Next ...
Zombo
Zombo said:
So ... five for five then, and that doesn't include our first round draft pick.
Next ...
Zombo
At best I would give the Browns 4 for 4 plus a tie....if we give them a draw on the Pouncey/Mack debate.
Will you do that?
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Zombo said:
So ... five for five then, and that doesn't include our first round draft pick.
Next ...
Zombo
At best I would give the Browns 4 for 4 plus a tie....if we give them a draw on the Pouncey/Mack debate.
Will you do that?
At best I would give the Browns 4 for 4 plus a tie....if we give them a draw on the Pouncey/Mack debate.
Will you do that?
No, Mack is as good as there is at his position.
Z
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