Jonathan Paul Manziel
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Good point. And yes I played. But not QB. Line guy. But the play action seems to cancel it out on the plays you use it which for us is often. The shotgun spreads the defense out and wider splits help a shorter quarterback. The vast majority of quarterbacks are taking an absurd (like 70+%) of their snaps from the shotgun or pistol anyway. I can't find those numbers for 2014 though.
Oh and in the one year he was good, mccown took 82% from shotgun/pistol. So what indication do we have that he's any good under center? I like mccown. I'm ready for him to start. But that stat just hit me in the face.
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Good point. And yes I played. But not QB. Line guy. But the play action seems to cancel it out on the plays you use it which for us is often. The shotgun spreads the defense out and wider splits help a shorter quarterback. The vast majority of quarterbacks are taking an absurd (like 70+%) of their snaps from the shotgun or pistol anyway. I can't find those numbers for 2014 though.
Oh and in the one year he was good, mccown took 82% from shotgun/pistol. So what indication do we have that he's any good under center? I like mccown. I'm ready for him to start. But that stat just hit me in the face.
Oh and in the one year he was good, mccown took 82% from shotgun/pistol. So what indication do we have that he's any good under center? I like mccown. I'm ready for him to start. But that stat just hit me in the face.
I think the stat that is driving this is simple.....in one week of practice, McCown has thrown 1 interception and had 1 pass knocked down at the line.....JFF threw 2 interceptions and had 4 balls knocked down on day one.....(and many many more after)......so, clearly, one guy is getting the ball out from under center safely......and the other one isnt....
So, dont think the issue is whether "McCown" plays from the shotgun or under center, cause he seems to do both just as well.....the issue is whether Johnny can do the same or needs things adjusted to compensate for inability to keep the D's hands off of his passes.........
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I'd say the sample size is plenty big on McCown. Again I like him, but I'm not saying "let me forget these 28 years of terrible QB play from under center because he had some good practices."
Many said Johnny looked better yesterday.
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Pet was asked about this and basically said our entire under center repertoire can be run from the pistol.
Another bit (may have been Pet as well) stated that QBs have the power to shift to the gun based upon look.
For a run-first team, play-action after starting under center is the best complement. The QB then has to get his head around, find his key and then find the correct area of the field. That is why Hoyer started last year. That is why McCown will start this year. That is why Shaw has a shot at #2.
A couple days ago Tim Hasselbeck dissected two JM plays from the Cinci game last year. Both were from the gun. In both the post-snap Safety reads were key. JM went 0-2. In neither did he appear to even look at the Safeties, but rather turned immediately to a preselected WR.
Tim's point, and it rang true to me, was that JM knew the play, but did not have a clue about the play's design concept, i.e., exploiting the defender that the play was designed to put into a bind.
That was last year, but that is skill that has to be added to JM's "set" no matter where he takes the snap.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196 -
Good take Tour.
But What evidence do you have Mccown can take snaps from center? Don't say 2013 as he rarely was.
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I'd say the sample size is plenty big on McCown. Again I like him, but I'm not saying "let me forget these 28 years of terrible QB play from under center because he had some good practices."
Many said Johnny looked better yesterday.
I'd say the sample size is plenty big on McCown. Again I like him, but I'm not saying "let me forget these 28 years of terrible QB play from under center because he had some good practices."
Many said Johnny looked better yesterday.
Well, practice is all we(and the coaches) have to go by now.....and, in practice, McCown has looked very good and much better than the other guys to this point.....he also has the team behind him and has their respect as a leader....so he is the clear #1 by a mile...
and, if McCowns as bad as you might feel he is(28 years of terrible?), then its a problem that the other 3 guys aren't even challenging him for the #1....
That includes Johnny, Shaw and Thad.....
Who would be "many", as Ive not heard or seen that anywhere.....
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No it's not all you have to go on. You annointed him the starter in the summer. You all saw something in his history that made you believe he was good under center. I am waiting for that evidence.
Dawg Pound Nation for one tweeted it.
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Good point. And yes I played. But not QB. Line guy. But the play action seems to cancel it out on the plays you use it which for us is often. The shotgun spreads the defense out and wider splits help a shorter quarterback. The vast majority of quarterbacks are taking an absurd (like 70+%) of their snaps from the shotgun or pistol anyway. I can't find those numbers for 2014 though.
Oh and in the one year he was good, mccown took 82% from shotgun/pistol. So what indication do we have that he's any good under center? I like mccown. I'm ready for him to start. But that stat just hit me in the face.
Good point. And yes I played. But not QB. Line guy. But the play action seems to cancel it out on the plays you use it which for us is often. The shotgun spreads the defense out and wider splits help a shorter quarterback. The vast majority of quarterbacks are taking an absurd (like 70+%) of their snaps from the shotgun or pistol anyway. I can't find those numbers for 2014 though.
Oh and in the one year he was good, mccown took 82% from shotgun/pistol. So what indication do we have that he's any good under center? I like mccown. I'm ready for him to start. But that stat just hit me in the face.
Gun has little to do with wide splits. You can have those in any offense. I'm sure most QB's pass 70% from the gun. 70% of their total offense ? Very few QB's obtain that number.
I don't believe McCown is 'so good' under center - but I believe he is a better decision maker than Johnny. Early camp work would back up that remark.
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No not of their total offense. Just 70% of their passes. So, assuming a 50-50 run/pass split, a whopping 15% of drop backs would be from under center. 10-12 plays a game (and it's less than that since Johnny's completion percentage out of the gun isn't 0 and McCown's isn't 100). That's what you guys are determining the QB battle on.
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And a smart move by Pettine....only because McCown was the only one we had that seemed to be a true pro....and the Browns have loudly said they dont want or need another "quarterback circus" competition like we had last year.....we need consistency and someone to lead....
After Jff's play last year....and the whole rehab mess....there was no way that he was gonna walk into camp and, on day #1, command the respect needed to lead a team of veterans.....
So, if Johnnys not ready.....and the coach doesnt want a QB circus....whats he supposed to do, except name McCown #1????
Its pretty clear that Pettine will play the best player and if Johnny, Shaw or Thad step up, they can win the job.
"Many" is a tweet?.....ok.....
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No not of their total offense. Just 70% of their passes. So, assuming a 50-50 run/pass split, a whopping 15% of drop backs would be from under center. 10-12 plays a game (and it's less than that since Johnny's completion percentage out of the gun isn't 0 and McCown's isn't 100). That's what you guys are determining the QB battle on.
No not of their total offense. Just 70% of their passes. So, assuming a 50-50 run/pass split, a whopping 15% of drop backs would be from under center. 10-12 plays a game (and it's less than that since Johnny's completion percentage out of the gun isn't 0 and McCown's isn't 100). That's what you guys are determining the QB battle on.
OK so 15% is a good chunk of your play book. Especially when you're a zone stretch offense. Traditionally these types of attacks are predicated about being under center.
I'm determining this QB battle by who can get the team in and out of the huddle, play efficient within themselves, the offense while taking care of the football.
So far McCown has that edge. You were the one that brought up Johnny and the gun. I simply highlighted that not having him under center doesn't necessarily help his production.
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And a smart move by Pettine....only because McCown was the only one we had that seemed to be a true pro....and the Browns have loudly said they dont want or need another "quarterback circus" competition like we had last year.....we need consistency and someone to lead....
After Jff's play last year....and the whole rehab mess....there was no way that he was gonna walk into camp and, on day #1, command the respect needed to lead a team of veterans.....
So, if Johnnys not ready.....and the coach doesnt want a QB circus....whats he supposed to do, except name McCown #1????
Its pretty clear that Pettine will play the best player and if Johnny, Shaw or Thad step up, they can win the job.
"Many" is a tweet?.....ok.....
And a smart move by Pettine....only because McCown was the only one we had that seemed to be a true pro....and the Browns have loudly said they dont want or need another "quarterback circus" competition like we had last year.....we need consistency and someone to lead....
After Jff's play last year....and the whole rehab mess....there was no way that he was gonna walk into camp and, on day #1, command the respect needed to lead a team of veterans.....
So, if Johnnys not ready.....and the coach doesnt want a QB circus....whats he supposed to do, except name McCown #1????
Its pretty clear that Pettine will play the best player and if Johnny, Shaw or Thad step up, they can win the job.
"Many" is a tweet?.....ok.....
Ok so Mccown is the starter because Johnny's a celeb. That's cool with me. Like I said I back him. But let's then stop this charade that he's some stud under center compared to Johnny.
There were more. I do every bit of this posting from mobile so it's quite a bit of work to copy them over. He had a phenomenal day yesterday that got exactly zero mentions here.
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No not of their total offense. Just 70% of their passes. So, assuming a 50-50 run/pass split, a whopping 15% of drop backs would be from under center. 10-12 plays a game (and it's less than that since Johnny's completion percentage out of the gun isn't 0 and McCown's isn't 100). That's what you guys are determining the QB battle on.
OK so 15% is a good chunk of your play book. Especially when you're a zone stretch offense. Traditionally these types of attacks are predicated about being under center.
I'm determining this QB battle by who can get the team in and out of the huddle, play efficient within themselves, the offense while taking care of the football.
So far McCown has that edge. You were the one that brought up Johnny and the gun. I simply highlighted that not having him under center doesn't necessarily help his production.
OK so 15% is a good chunk of your play book. Especially when you're a zone stretch offense. Traditionally these types of attacks are predicated about being under center.
I'm determining this QB battle by who can get the team in and out of the huddle, play efficient within themselves, the offense while taking care of the football.
So far McCown has that edge. You were the one that brought up Johnny and the gun. I simply highlighted that not having him under center doesn't necessarily help his production.
No one's saying throw out the under center throws in your playbook. They're saying what Johnny can do in the 35% of shotgun drop backs vastly outweighs the struggles he may have (and that McCown may share) in the 15%.
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No not of their total offense. Just 70% of their passes. So, assuming a 50-50 run/pass split, a whopping 15% of drop backs would be from under center. 10-12 plays a game (and it's less than that since Johnny's completion percentage out of the gun isn't 0 and McCown's isn't 100). That's what you guys are determining the QB battle on.
No not of their total offense. Just 70% of their passes. So, assuming a 50-50 run/pass split, a whopping 15% of drop backs would be from under center. 10-12 plays a game (and it's less than that since Johnny's completion percentage out of the gun isn't 0 and McCown's isn't 100). That's what you guys are determining the QB battle on.
I think they are determining the QB battle on the fact that McCown has looked like a better quarterback than Manziel so far.
I'm awesome, and I fuck dolphins. Ghoolie 12/2/2012: I have absolutely no skills, training or pride -
And a smart move by Pettine....only because McCown was the only one we had that seemed to be a true pro....and the Browns have loudly said they dont want or need another "quarterback circus" competition like we had last year.....we need consistency and someone to lead....
After Jff's play last year....and the whole rehab mess....there was no way that he was gonna walk into camp and, on day #1, command the respect needed to lead a team of veterans.....
So, if Johnnys not ready.....and the coach doesnt want a QB circus....whats he supposed to do, except name McCown #1????
Its pretty clear that Pettine will play the best player and if Johnny, Shaw or Thad step up, they can win the job.
"Many" is a tweet?.....ok.....
Ok so Mccown is the starter because Johnny's a celeb. That's cool with me. Like I said I back him. But let's then stop this charade that he's some stud under center compared to Johnny.
There were more. I do every bit of this posting from mobile so it's quite a bit of work to copy them over. He had a phenomenal day yesterday that got exactly zero mentions here.
Ok so Mccown is the starter because Johnny's a celeb. That's cool with me. Like I said I back him. But let's then stop this charade that he's some stud under center compared to Johnny.
There were more. I do every bit of this posting from mobile so it's quite a bit of work to copy them over. He had a phenomenal day yesterday that got exactly zero mentions here.
Ok so Mccown is the starter because Johnny's a celeb???....(is this for real???)....Johnnys not starting simply because he hasn't practiced, worked or played well.....thats why....no other reason.....believe me, the Browns WANT him to start and play well.....he just hasnt done it yet....
Its not a charade that McCown is outplaying him so far....nor is it a charade that McCown has better leadership and maturity....and its not a charade that Johnny has had only 2 decent days at practice and 4-5 not so good days....(thats all real, if you're willing to look at it objectively)
And Id have mentioned it if I heard it(like I did the one other day he played well).....but did not get that he had a "phenomenal" day from the many sources I read daily.....
Not sure what the debate is really.....you dont actually think he's done whats needed to be #1 right now, do you????
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No not of their total offense. Just 70% of their passes. So, assuming a 50-50 run/pass split, a whopping 15% of drop backs would be from under center. 10-12 plays a game (and it's less than that since Johnny's completion percentage out of the gun isn't 0 and McCown's isn't 100). That's what you guys are determining the QB battle on.
I think they are determining the QB battle on the fact that McCown has looked like a better quarterback than Manziel so far.
I think they are determining the QB battle on the fact that McCown has looked like a better quarterback than Manziel so far.
Exactly.....and nothing else....
McCown looks WAY better....so far......
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OK so 15% is a good chunk of your play book. Especially when you're a zone stretch offense. Traditionally these types of attacks are predicated about being under center.
I'm determining this QB battle by who can get the team in and out of the huddle, play efficient within themselves, the offense while taking care of the football.
So far McCown has that edge. You were the one that brought up Johnny and the gun. I simply highlighted that not having him under center doesn't necessarily help his production.
No one's saying throw out the under center throws in your playbook. They're saying what Johnny can do in the 35% of shotgun drop backs vastly outweighs the struggles he may have (and that McCown may share) in the 15%.
So ignore the entirety of the play book in favor of highlighting some of it? More specifically ignoring formations that take advantage of our base offense running plays, ball action and bootlegs.No one's saying throw out the under center throws in your playbook. They're saying what Johnny can do in the 35% of shotgun drop backs vastly outweighs the struggles he may have (and that McCown may share) in the 15%.
Pretty simple. McCown has shown to be more efficient in camp compared to Manziel. If he wants to start he'll have to earn it executing with the full play book. End of story.
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Ok so Mccown is the starter because Johnny's a celeb. That's cool with me. Like I said I back him. But let's then stop this charade that he's some stud under center compared to Johnny.
There were more. I do every bit of this posting from mobile so it's quite a bit of work to copy them over. He had a phenomenal day yesterday that got exactly zero mentions here.
Ok so Mccown is the starter because Johnny's a celeb???....(is this for real???)....Johnnys not starting simply because he hasn't practiced, worked or played well.....thats why....no other reason.....believe me, the Browns WANT him to start and play well.....he just hasnt done it yet....
Its not a charade that McCown is outplaying him so far....nor is it a charade that McCown has better leadership and maturity....and its not a charade that Johnny has had only 2 decent days at practice and 4-5 not so good days....(thats all real, if you're willing to look at it objectively)
And Id have mentioned it if I heard it(like I did the one other day he played well).....but did not get that he had a "phenomenal" day from the many sources I read daily.....
Not sure what the debate is really.....you dont actually think he's done whats needed to be #1 right now, do you????
Ok so Mccown is the starter because Johnny's a celeb???....(is this for real???)....Johnnys not starting simply because he hasn't practiced, worked or played well.....thats why....no other reason.....believe me, the Browns WANT him to start and play well.....he just hasnt done it yet....
Its not a charade that McCown is outplaying him so far....nor is it a charade that McCown has better leadership and maturity....and its not a charade that Johnny has had only 2 decent days at practice and 4-5 not so good days....(thats all real, if you're willing to look at it objectively)
And Id have mentioned it if I heard it(like I did the one other day he played well).....but did not get that he had a "phenomenal" day from the many sources I read daily.....
Not sure what the debate is really.....you dont actually think he's done whats needed to be #1 right now, do you????
Your post strongly implied Manziek was a celeb. He caused a circus. So name McCown the starter. No need to walk it back. I agree that's what happened and I agree it was the right move. Don't take offense where there is no offense. Yes I'm an exaggerator. All part of my charm.
You keep going back to practice when I am asking what in McCown's history made him the anointed starter PRIOR TO training camp. It certainly is not his ability to play under center, which is the commonly cited reason.
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I think they are determining the QB battle on the fact that McCown has looked like a better quarterback than Manziel so far.
Exactly.....and nothing else....
McCown looks WAY better....so far......
Exactly.....and nothing else....
McCown looks WAY better....so far......
But it was determined in the summer and it was claimed in the summer that it was due to Johnny's major suckage under center and McCown's dominance there. I've proven the latter is nonexistent. You guys keep acting like he was named the starter just this past weekend. If that were the case, you'd have a case.
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Good take Tour.
But What evidence do you have Mccown can take snaps from center? Don't say 2013 as he rarely was.
But What evidence do you have Mccown can take snaps from center? Don't say 2013 as he rarely was.
Stat wise? None, but I have seen Josh. He sells the action better and is quicker to his set. We'll see about the reads, but doing the first two elements well goes a long way towards simplifying the third.
One thing we should all remember is that as of now Josh is the starter in Camp. He likely will start Pre-Season Game 1 as well. That means the #2 will see more work in the first two games. After game 2 we should know where we are and the Game 3 starter will start our season.
"When you have a shared vision it is a lot easier to make unpopular decisions." - Paul DePodesta "When you win, say nothing. When you lose, say less." - Paul Brown Complete 2017 Browns Board Mock: http://thebrownsboard.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=46196
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